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    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    pride355:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    crayphile:

    However, the FF is a genuine (if expensive) daily drive.

    Ferrari here in the UK now come with a four year warranty - one year longer than Porsche - and with seven years maintenance now included in the price maybe even running costs may be closer than they once were....Smiley Once you've got over the initial purchase price of course Smiley

    Do you mean that all breakdowns and faults are covered for 4 years plus for 7 years you don't pay for anything except fuel? 

    So straightforward? 

    On the Porsche I pay 1.000 EUR for factory warranty (up to 9 years) and a minimal amount for the annual service. The biggest cost  is tyres but I get them at good prices on line from Germany delivered to my door.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Reginos,

    You also pay for the brake pads Smiley

    For road driving, replacement is needed every 30.000-35.000 km front and around 50.000 rear. But rear tyres go very quickly especially during the summer months (35-40+C). I changed from Michelin to Bridgestone and I am very happy for the road.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:
    pride355:
    reginos:
    dreamcar:
    crayphile:

    However, the FF is a genuine (if expensive) daily drive.

    Ferrari here in the UK now come with a four year warranty - one year longer than Porsche - and with seven years maintenance now included in the price maybe even running costs may be closer than they once were....Smiley Once you've got over the initial purchase price of course Smiley

    Do you mean that all breakdowns and faults are covered for 4 years plus for 7 years you don't pay for anything except fuel? 

    So straightforward? 

    On the Porsche I pay 1.000 EUR for factory warranty (up to 9 years) and a minimal amount for the annual service. The biggest cost  is tyres but I get them at good prices on line from Germany delivered to my door.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Reginos,

    You also pay for the brake pads Smiley

    For road driving, replacement is needed every 30.000-35.000 km front and around 50.000 rear. But rear tyres go very quickly especially during the summer months (35-40+C). I changed from Michelin to Bridgestone and I am very happy for the road.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Bridgestone has a harder compound tire which heats up later but holds on better at track driving. Michelins, especially Pliot SS, warm up easily and very sticky for a road tire but heat up too much on the track and starts to fall apart.

    So if you ask me, Michelin PSS is better for road use and Bridgestones are better for track. I'm talking about road tires, not sports tires.


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    pride355:
     

    So if you ask me, Michelin PSS is better for road use and Bridgestones are better for track. I'm talking about road tires, not sports tires.

    I think you are spot on. The Pirellis are too soft even for spirited road driving. I spec all my Ferraris with the Michelins and especially the Cayenne TTs which just eat the Pirellis in less than 8K miles


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    pride355:
     

    A 2000 model 360 Modena with a tubi exhaust attracts more attention than 2014 991 Turbo S.

    I'm not saying this as a good or bad thing. But this is the hard fact about Ferrari. period.

    In Germany, you attract more attention with a classic Ford Capri than a Ferrari but this doesn't mean I would get one. Smiley

    It is actually my intention not to attract attention because of the current social environment over here in Germany. Driving an expensive SUV or an expensive sports car already makes me the target of envy and hate, I don't have to top that on purpose. Smiley Sad but true. 

    I was very interested in a Ferrari F12, funds weren't really an issue here. Decided against it when one of my wife's girlfriends started a verbal hate tirade against "rich" people in their Ferraris and yachts and other people who were sitting at the table in the restaurant were actually agreeing with her. Keep in mind that most people we go out with aren't actually poor, on the contrary.  This is only one example. Porsche is a different story. I own Porsche cars for many years now, neighbors and friends got kind of used to it. Also had some factory cars with the typical S- or LB- license plate in front of my house a couple of times, so they started to believe I have a professional connection to Porsche. I never denied it because it serves me well, the comments about my cars have been quite civil lately if I ignore the p-enlargment comment from one of my wife's friends regarding my former 997 Turbo. Her husband hates my guts, he gets afraid at 120 kph on the Autobahn Smiley and it seems that his wife kind of got infected with that attitude. Smiley Every time we meet, he asks me if Porsche hasn't gone bankrupt and I really don't have a clue why. Smiley

    No, Germany is no place for exotics...unless you have enough money not to have to care about what other people say. However, I changed my attitude a lot in the past, I care much less but I cannot provoke.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    RC - I sense what you are saying when I have been in Germany/ interacting with German business associates. I find the public restraint in very wealthy Germans ( at least the ones I have met) very refreshing and to be respected Smiley. However, I have always found this difficult to match this up with actual Ferrari sales figures , which if I remember correctly had Germany ahead of the UK in sales figures. Until the Far East took off this made Germany Ferrari's second largest market after the US. Any explanations / thoughts on that Smiley ? Do the cars just sit in the garage and the owners never admit to owning them?


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    crayphile:

    RC - I sense what you are saying when I have been in Germany/ interacting with German business associates. I find the public restraint in very wealthy Germans ( at least the ones I have met) very refreshing and to be respected Smiley.

    I don't respect this attitude at all, I think it is a reflection of a deeply embedded hypocrisy or simply the fear that one could provoke excessive envy or hate.

    However, I have always found this difficult to match this up with actual Ferrari sales figures , which if I remember correctly had Germany ahead of the UK in sales figures. Until the Far East took off this made Germany Ferrari's second largest market after the US. Any explanations / thoughts on that Smiley ? Do the cars just sit in the garage and the owners never admit to owning them?

    We have a couple of large cities where Ferraris are quite common. I also know a couple of Ferrari owners who keep their cars in the garage and only use them a couple of times per year for special driving events, mostly in Austria or Italy. Also, there is quite a number of collector cars over here, people buy them just to own them.

    Let me give you an example how "bad" the situation over here is: Many years ago, there was an international Ferrari meet in Baden Baden. I went there because a good friend was there too with his Ferrari. At some point of the event, my friend told me that he has to be careful because a TV team was looking for him (he was the youngest Ferrari owner in the German Ferrari Club at that time) and he really didn't want to appear on TV for obvious reasons. When the TV report appeared on TV, I understood why: They actually portrayed the event as some sort of "the rich elite meets in Baden Baden" kind of event. Many of the Ferrari owners there weren't rich, some had their cars for years and/or bought them used, this was really a meet of enthusiasts but the media didn't seem to care about, they wanted some sort of sensational story. I think nowadays, it would be even worse.

    Most Ferrari cars I've seen so far over here in Bavaria were in the Munich/Starnberg area but I see much more Porsche than Ferrari on the streets (usually in a 100:1 or so rate, at least).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    RC:
    crayphile:

    RC - I sense what you are saying when I have been in Germany/ interacting with German business associates. I find the public restraint in very wealthy Germans ( at least the ones I have met) very refreshing and to be respected Smiley.

    I don't respect this attitude at all, I think it is a reflection of a deeply embedded hypocrisy or simply the fear that one could provoke excessive envy or hate.

    Could this fear and restraint phenomenon emanate from the social traumas of the Baader-Meinhof, RAF era?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:
    RC:
    crayphile:

    RC - I sense what you are saying when I have been in Germany/ interacting with German business associates. I find the public restraint in very wealthy Germans ( at least the ones I have met) very refreshing and to be respected Smiley.

    I don't respect this attitude at all, I think it is a reflection of a deeply embedded hypocrisy or simply the fear that one could provoke excessive envy or hate.

    Could this fear and restraint phenomenon emanate from the social traumas of the Baader-Meinhof, RAF era?

    Interesting question. I don't know. There is something in Germany called "Kleinbürgertum", which somehow translates into "petite bourgeoisie". These are people who are doing OK and actually live their own dream but in a way cannot stand to see others live a better or wealthier life. Difficult to explain.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Eh, who cares? I've seen lots of positive reactions to exotic cars while I'm in German. I've seen tons of people checking out exotics, taking pictures, talking about them etc. So some time's they can be negative. Oh well. Can't please everyone, nor should you be trying to. Just a bunch of strangers anyway.

    At the times when the reaction is negative, is this not the best time to apply the great German term of Schadenfreude? Who better to extract such pleasure from than the people whose anger is unjust and misplaced? 


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    wedouglas:

    Eh, who cares? I've seen lots of positive reactions to exotic cars while I'm in German. I've seen tons of people checking out exotics, taking pictures, talking about them etc. So some time's they can be negative. Oh well. Can't please everyone, nor should you be trying to. Just a bunch of strangers anyway.

    At car events, people are more open minded and friendly. I also find younger people and especially foreigners over here (Turks, Russians, etc.) more open minded towards expensive cars but like you said, a bunch of strangers anyway. Still...one stranger is enough to scratch your paint...

    At the times when the reaction is negative, is this not the best time to apply the great German term of Schadenfreude? Who better to extract such pleasure from than the people whose anger is unjust and misplaced? 

    Schadenfreude means actually being happy about something bad happening to someone else. So I doubt this term fits any of the mentioned car situations.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    I find this kind of envy very strange for a rich country like Germany. In the UK some people might take offence if you drive too quickly or your car makes a lot of noise but envy as such simply for the possession of an exotic I have never seen. In Greece it is another story altogether. My friend was spat the other day for having the audacity to drive his 430 during this horrible recession.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    REALZEUS:

    I find this kind of envy very strange for a rich country like Germany. In the UK some people might take offence if you drive too quickly or your car makes a lot of noise but envy as such simply for the possession of an exotic I have never seen. In Greece it is another story altogether. My friend was spat the other day for having the audacity to drive his 430 during this horrible recession.

    I find that strange too but our media bombards us with how poor we are and how much richer actually the ordinary people in Spain, Italy and even Greece are (I'm not kidding, there have been various articles mentioning that for example not many Germans own the condos/houses they live in but most Italians, Spaniards or Greek do, thus being more wealthy than Germans). We have a very extensive poor/rich discussion over here in Germany right now in the media, not a single day passes by without such reports. Many Germans don't actually realize how well they are doing and how stupid they are demanding higher taxes for the "rich" because in most cases, these higher taxes would affect most of the middle class over here too. We have a very strange situation right now, tax evasion is on the main news each and every day and they point with the fingers to the rich. The fact however is that most people evading taxes in Germany are, according to tax authoroties, handymen, restaurant owners and small business owners, not the big fishes. Still, the "rich" are to blame for everything. Smiley This is a very dangerous discussion and it will hurt Germany and the society a lot in the end, especially if the economy should slow down too over here.

    Yes, Greece seems to be a problem for expensive cars but not only Greece. One of my customers, he has a company in Italy, comes very often to Germany but the car, a Bentley GT Cabriolet, is registered in Italy. Last time he came to Germany, he showed me what somebody did to his luggage room cover the night he was leaving for Germany (he parked his car only for an hour on the public street to get his stuff from his business). "Ladro" was scratched into the paint, I think this means "thief" or something like that. He will paint the car in Germany but he was very upset any may leave the car in Germany for his other business here. I never thought that it is that bad in Italy. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (ordered), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    I am sure that you are aware of the fact that the media are distorting reality. The buying power of the average German is 1.2 times that of the average Brit and 2+ times that of the average Greek. The reason that people in the European South bought their houses/appartments is that in the past it was considered to be a good investment and that if push comes to shove, you will at least have a place to stay. In Germany though, people prefer to invest on other things, such as stocks and bonds. What the media and the governments for that matter tell to the ordinary man is dispicable!  They are trying to turn nations against each other while the precious few make millions and billions. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    RC:

    Schadenfreude means actually being happy about something bad happening to someone else. So I doubt this term fits any of the mentioned car situations.

    I'm aware. Eh, one could argue that something bad is actively happening to them as you drive by :)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    reginos:

    I wonder why knowledgable people about cars keep making parallels between Porsche and Ferrari. Porsche have always been relatively affordable sports/performance cars (with the exception of some models in the range) whereas Ferrari have always been exotics. Remember some older Porsches like the 356, 912,914,924 etc. to realize the humble but solid and honest nature of the marque since the beginning. 

    The clientele is also different, excepting some multi-car owners. Not everyone in the market who can afford it, is attracted by the glitz and glamour of exotics. Porsche is for people who want real world performance and impeccable engineering. OTOH, exotics are mostly like trophys for people who want social recognition and display of wealth. This is the typical clientele, no offense to the small minority of some keen drivers who care to drive their cars rather than to display them.

    I have owned Porsche for many years and I have never cared about how many units are produced, and what the range is composed of. I enjoy the performance and driving experience immensely and I don't care how  a neighbour or passerby rates the "exclusivity" But I have to admit that some people have their own insecurities yes


    --

    "Form follows function"

    "no offense to the small minority of some keen drivers who care to drive their cars rather than to display them."

    None taken, but you are very right, my F cars get driven, carry Sun around, etc.  After years on Ferrari chat and meeting numerous F guys, the large majority own them for status and "social recognition" as you call it; and don't really drive them; witness  a 4k mile 458 is high mile in USA.

    The negative side of that brand image is evidenced in my wife hating F cars as too flagrant and showy, my son being embarassed at school with the first graders' reaction to Strads... even though we all know Strads and Scuds are differentSmileySmileySmiley


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    watt:
    reginos:

    I wonder why knowledgable people about cars keep making parallels between Porsche and Ferrari. Porsche have always been relatively affordable sports/performance cars (with the exception of some models in the range) whereas Ferrari have always been exotics. Remember some older Porsches like the 356, 912,914,924 etc. to realize the humble but solid and honest nature of the marque since the beginning. 

    The clientele is also different, excepting some multi-car owners. Not everyone in the market who can afford it, is attracted by the glitz and glamour of exotics. Porsche is for people who want real world performance and impeccable engineering. OTOH, exotics are mostly like trophys for people who want social recognition and display of wealth. This is the typical clientele, no offense to the small minority of some keen drivers who care to drive their cars rather than to display them.

    I have owned Porsche for many years and I have never cared about how many units are produced, and what the range is composed of. I enjoy the performance and driving experience immensely and I don't care how  a neighbour or passerby rates the "exclusivity" But I have to admit that some people have their own insecurities yes


    --

    "Form follows function"

    "no offense to the small minority of some keen drivers who care to drive their cars rather than to display them."

    None taken, but you are very right, my F cars get driven, carry Sun around, etc.  After years on Ferrari chat and meeting numerous F guys, the large majority own them for status and "social recognition" as you call it; and don't really drive them; witness  a 4k mile 458 is high mile in USA.

    The negative side of that brand image is evidenced in my wife hating F cars as too flagrant and showy, my son being embarassed at school with the first graders' reaction to Strads... even though we all know Strads and Scuds are differentSmileySmileySmiley

    Watt, my wife felt the same way. I put 15,000 miles on the 430 Spider and I believe she rode in it three times. Needless to say I took a financial beating when selling it. After that I decided I did not want to deal with the Ferrari mystic any longer. Been there done that.


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Used Ferraris are quite affordable now in Germany but I think that maintenance will still give you a beating, cost-wise. I do not trust independent repair shops over here and the official maintenance/repair prices are still not for the faint hearted.  broken heart

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    newer models (2013 onwards) have seven year warranty.


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Jean:

    newer models (2013 onwards) have seven year warranty.

    Its actually Three Years Unlimited Mileage Warranty with Seven Years Scheduled Maintenance Included with every purchase. Its a bit cheeky but none the less, the warranty can be extended for a few years for an annual sum. I think its along the lines of $3,000/= per year.


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    RC:

    Used Ferraris are quite affordable now in Germany but I think that maintenance will still give you a beating, cost-wise. I do not trust independent repair shops over here and the official maintenance/repair prices are still not for the faint hearted.  broken heart

     

    Probably different for newer models, but I was able to do almost all the maintenance myself on my 550 Maranello.  Only thing I couldn't do were the timing belts, but this was pretty cheap and easy on the V12 from the dealer (unlike some of the older V8 models where you have to remove the engine).

    Fun car to work on and fun to drive too (but needs better steering feel)!


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Grant:
    RC:

    Used Ferraris are quite affordable now in Germany but I think that maintenance will still give you a beating, cost-wise. I do not trust independent repair shops over here and the official maintenance/repair prices are still not for the faint hearted.  broken heart

     

    Probably different for newer models, but I was able to do almost all the maintenance myself on my 550 Maranello.  Only thing I couldn't do were the timing belts, but this was pretty cheap and easy on the V12 from the dealer (unlike some of the older V8 models where you have to remove the engine).

    Fun car to work on and fun to drive too (but needs better steering feel)!


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

    If the car doesn't have a 100% maintenance "history" (meaning: professional dealerships/repair shops), it is "worthless" over here.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Exactly!  Particularly on italian cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati buyers are (rightfully) very strict when checking out the maintenance history... no history means forget selling the car! 


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Yesterday I saw a beautiful 2005 F430 convertible with only 17,500 km for CHF99k, new it was more than CHF300k. the same place had a 993 4S with 112k km for sale for CHF65k. I think you can say that the days of low depreciation for Ferrari are over...


    --

    2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

    Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    turbolite:

    Exactly!  Particularly on italian cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati buyers are (rightfully) very strict when checking out the maintenance history... no history means forget selling the car! 

    I documented all the maintenance and kept receipts for parts.  New buyer was very impressed and I sold the car on the 3rd day after starting the advertising.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    Grant:
    turbolite:

    Exactly!  Particularly on italian cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini and Maserati buyers are (rightfully) very strict when checking out the maintenance history... no history means forget selling the car! 

    I documented all the maintenance and kept receipts for parts.  New buyer was very impressed and I sold the car on the 3rd day after starting the advertising.

    Things in the US are a little bit different. This is why used cars (Porsche, Ferrari, etc.) imported from the US to Europe (Germany) usually achieve a much lower price on the market. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Montezemolo decided to REDUCE the number

    It's not the only reason - orange indicator lenses and awful bumper adornments.... no


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog


     
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