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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    133k Euros is not bad for Turbo of that is the case...


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    It will depend on the options. The ETron is pretty well loaded, but Porsches in general needs a minimum of $12k of options to be a mid spec.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    WLTP range of 515 kM ~ 286 miles of EPA range


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The ETron 249 WLTP range translated to 204 EPA range... Still not clear why the gap exists.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    The ETron 249 WLTP range translated to 204 EPA range... Still not clear why the gap exists.

    Discussed this before on another thread; however, one believes that the Volkswagen Group is being conservative in its calculations on range and performance for its EV offerings to avoid potential negative news stories.  Additionally, companies like Volkswagen Group have very stringent quality measures that must be met before a product is signed off, not sure the same can be said about Tesla as the company, namely Musk, tends to "wing it."  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    The ETron 249 WLTP range translated to 204 EPA range... Still not clear why the gap exists.

    Discussed this before on another thread; however, one believes that the Volkswagen Group is being conservative in its calculations on range and performance for its EV offerings to avoid potential negative news stories.  Additionally, companies like Volkswagen Group have very stringent quality measures that must be met before a product is signed off, not sure the same can be said about Tesla as the company, namely Musk, tends to "wing it."  

    esp when it comes to emissions 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    schmoell:
    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    The ETron 249 WLTP range translated to 204 EPA range... Still not clear why the gap exists.

    Discussed this before on another thread; however, one believes that the Volkswagen Group is being conservative in its calculations on range and performance for its EV offerings to avoid potential negative news stories.  Additionally, companies like Volkswagen Group have very stringent quality measures that must be met before a product is signed off, not sure the same can be said about Tesla as the company, namely Musk, tends to "wing it."  

    esp when it comes to emissions 

    Why did the EU regulators allow the cheating in the first place?  Most in the industry, and even outside, were aware that the automakers, not only Volkswagen, took a very liberal interpretation of the regulations, especially those pertaining to fuel economy/carbon emissions.  It was allowed until it wasn't.  The more poignant question is what changed?  Additionally, if CARB wanted to ensure that the automakers didn't shirk the standards, why did the regulators allow self-reporting without monitoring for decades?  This is not condoning Volkswagen's overall corporate behavior as others were involved in the scheme too.  Finally, regulatory compliance isn't the same as quality assurance.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Why are you trying to defend VW for what they did ? Do you think that adding defeat devices was ok, maybe because some lawyer found a loophole in the regulations  ?

    I was referring to the QA you mentioned and my comment wasn't meant as cynical as it seems.  After working in the Auto industry for quite some time I can assure you that *nothing* gets into a car without proper testing; and that includes the cheating functions. To my knowledge Tesla never did any of that to their cars, customers and authorities. All the rest is a different story 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Specifically stated that I do not condone Volkswagen's corporate behavior but I do understand how it happened.  This company was not alone in its actions as there was a gentlemen's agreement to allow widespread interpretations of the regulations.  Also note that the regulators were complacent by failing to monitor strict adherence to the standards.  Any reasonable person would know that shirking by one party or another would occur.  

    By the way, you must of missed these articles on Tesla and its pollution violations.  

    https://earther.gizmodo.com/tesla-pays-out-86-000-in-settlement-over-hazardous-was-1833734015

    https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2018/03/02/tesla-fremont-car-factory-air-pollution-fine-tsla.html


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I think, that you are pretty much biased, trying to make a point comparing 200k fines for Tesla fabs with the Bln fines for VW cars.   I'm out ...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Volkswagen has paid its fines and have made significant changes in management.  What more do you expect as punishment?  Do you want the company sent into liquidation?  Not sure the government of Lower Saxony would want that as the expected outcome for bad corporate behavior nor do the remaining employees or stakeholders want that as an outcome either.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    ALDO:

    Just drove behind a Taycan turbo on the highway A8 nearby Weissach. I was with my S 63AMG and when he pushed I didn`t have any chance to follow him.

    My car was loud and his silent - I did feel a little bit outdated in my car (which is 2 month old).

    How do you know it wasn't the Turbo S

    Also, test mules are not standard production cars. This Taycan had maybe 1000 hp for all I know. Smiley

    Another thing: The S63 AMG Coupe does 0-200 kph in 13.3 seconds as far as I remember. The E63 S does the same time in 10.8 seconds. Just a little perspective here. The Taycan Turbo is supposed to do 0-200 kph in "under 10 seconds", so...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:

    Volkswagen has paid its fines and have made significant changes in management.  What more do you expect as punishment?  Do you want the company sent into liquidation?  Not sure the government of Lower Saxony would want that as the expected outcome for bad corporate behavior nor do the remaining employees or stakeholders want that as an outcome either.  

    I agree but I also have to say that VW Group management handled the whole scandal very disrespectful (towards the customers and the public) and wrong. It is, in my humble opinion, VW Group's fault that we now have this whole discussion and stricter rules regarding emissions and even noise emissions. Everything has crawled it's way back into the focus point of the media worldwide and this already has bitten (and will still bite) VW and many other car manufacturers in the ass for a very very long time to come.

    VW should have been more generous with customers, more open with the public, including a big ass apology in the news media. It would have costed them billions, no doubt but they damage they caused to the car industry (incl. their competition) will last for at least another decade and will cost them much much more. Just dumb. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    ALDO:

    Just drove behind a Taycan turbo on the highway A8 nearby Weissach. I was with my S 63AMG and when he pushed I didn`t have any chance to follow him.

    My car was loud and his silent - I did feel a little bit outdated in my car (which is 2 month old).

    How do you know it wasn't the Turbo S

    Smiley

    Also, test mules are not standard production cars. This Taycan had maybe 1000 hp for all I know. Smiley

    Another thing: The S63 AMG Coupe does 0-200 kph in 13.3 seconds as far as I remember. The E63 S does the same time in 10.8 seconds. Just a little perspective here. The Taycan Turbo is supposed to do 0-200 kph in "under 10 seconds", so...

     


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    CGX car nut:

    Volkswagen has paid its fines and have made significant changes in management.  What more do you expect as punishment?  Do you want the company sent into liquidation?  Not sure the government of Lower Saxony would want that as the expected outcome for bad corporate behavior nor do the remaining employees or stakeholders want that as an outcome either.  

    I agree but I also have to say that VW Group management handled the whole scandal very disrespectful (towards the customers and the public) and wrong. It is, in my humble opinion, VW Group's fault that we now have this whole discussion and stricter rules regarding emissions and even noise emissions. Everything has crawled it's way back into the focus point of the media worldwide and this already has bitten (and will still bite) VW and many other car manufacturers in the ass for a very very long time to come.

    VW should have been more generous with customers, more open with the public, including a big ass apology in the news media. It would have costed them billions, no doubt but they damage they caused to the car industry (incl. their competition) will last for at least another decade and will cost them much much more. Just dumb. 

    Volkswagen’s handling of the issue was/is significantly different in the States than the EU. Consumers were awarded cash payments and generous buyback terms.  The Company also provided a multi-billion dollar funding to form Electrify America, a high speed charging network to compete against Tesla’s Supercharger network.  Volkswagen has turned this into a positive by sharing its MEB component set with Ford, thereby, increasing the economics of scale to lower component pricing.  Meanwhile, Tesla is doing it alone.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Unreal you would even try to defend/justify them for the emissions scandal, this just shows how much bias you have, but we have known that for a long time angry. I’m out, just keep blindly bashing Tesla for every little thing they do, it means less and less with every post like this you write...

    We will know soon enough what the real range of the Etron is (WLPT or EPA?) and what the EPA range of the Taycan will be.

    What I do know is that on 30+ miles stretch, I can match my X 295 miles EPA range even though I have air con, radio and 22” wheels. Clearly no cheating smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    Unreal you would even try to defend/justify them for the emissions scandal, this just shows how much bias you have, but we have known that for a long time angry. I’m out, just keep blindly bashing Tesla for every little thing they do, it means less and less with every post like this you write...

    We will know soon enough what the real range of the Etron is (WLPT or EPA?) and what the EPA range of the Taycan will be.

    What I do know is that on 30+ miles stretch, I can match my X 295 miles EPA range even though I have air con, radio and 22” wheels. Clearly no cheating smiley

    There's a significant difference between understanding why a scenario involved in a corporation versus condoning the wanton behavior.  As previously stated, the company broke the law and it was punished economically.  Sales suffered and financial damages paid.  What more do you want from the company?  Why should tens of thousands of employees who had nothing to do with the fraudulent actions of a few individuals.  Additionally, as also discussed, Volkswagen was not alone in this type of violation.  Guilty parties include Bosch, PSA, GM, Ford, Daimler, and FCA.   A few years before, the major heavy truck engine manufacturers were found guilty of similar regulatory violations, yet one seldom reads about outrage being directed at International Harvester, for example.

    What remains interesting is a couple of C8 Corvette launch videos have discussions on the various modes and how some reset during startup phase to meet the EPA certification process.  This alludes to the fact that this car, like almost all other cars, while occasionally exceed the emission limits of the regulations.

    Oh, by the way, you are posting on a Porsche, a wholly owned subsidiary of Volkswagen Group, forum, not a Tesla blog so you should expect that not everyone is keen on Tesla like you.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I find it extremely funny that someone would get so worked up over VAG cheating on emission.

    It's done. It's the past. No one is harmed as there is no casualties. Maybe the regulators' ego got a big bruise and that's about it. 

    When a rule doesn't make sense people tends to side-step or outright disobey it. It's human nature.

    Look no farther than the Americans with their independence war with England. The whole country committed high treason, punishable by death. The Americans won the war, so they escaped punishment. But it's the past, history, done. Should we punished Americans again for that act of treason? 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:

    I find it extremely funny that someone would get so worked up over VAG cheating on emission.

    It's done. It's the past. No one is harmed as there is no casualties. Maybe the regulators' ego got a big bruise and that's about it. 

    When a rule doesn't make sense people tends to side-step or outright disobey it. It's human nature.

    Look no farther than the Americans with their independence war with England. The whole country committed high treason, punishable by death. The Americans won the war, so they escaped punishment. But it's the past, history, done. Should we punished Americans again for that act of treason? 

     

    As you have stated, while companies didn't comply completely with the regulations, the regulators shirked their responsibility to monitor the companies for compliance.  In the States, Volkswagen Group sold half a million cars that did not fully comply with the NOx emission standards.  This is out of almost 300 million registered cars.  According to the EPA, transportation, is responsible for 5% of all NOx emission and manmade causes are responsible for 40% NOx emission from human activities.  NOx is roughly 6% of the total greenhouse gas emissions from all sources.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    IMG_0468.JPG
    IMG_0471.JPG
    IMG_0467.JPG
    IMG_0473.JPG
    IMG_0470.JPG
    IMG_0469.JPG

    Oh yeah, delivery day.

    City driving acceleration is adequate, snappier than my Honda. Body control not so much even in Dynamic setting. If Porsche can get their heavy pigs to handle so beautifully, there is no excuse for Audi to to be able to do that, they have been racing long enough. Hell even my Honda pickup has better body control.

    It looks, and drives like a normal car, which is how an EV should be. Normal. 

    The touch screen is shit. Utter shit with most settings buried under a thousand layers. Just as I was saying before, they buried half the seat controls inside the touchscreen menu 

    The only saving grace is that this touch screen can be set up like normal buttons, glancing touches doesn't activate it. 

    Trunk size is pretty much the same as my Cayenne, has more rear leg room, but the outside dimension is pretty close to my Cayenne, perfectly sized. 

    Lastly, it would seems Audi cheap out ow for 2019 models, there isn't a leather case for owner's manual anymore, just a flimsy paper box. Not just the e-tron, but the whole range also.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:
    Whoopsy:

    I find it extremely funny that someone would get so worked up over VAG cheating on emission.

    It's done. It's the past. No one is harmed as there is no casualties. Maybe the regulators' ego got a big bruise and that's about it. 

    When a rule doesn't make sense people tends to side-step or outright disobey it. It's human nature.

    Look no farther than the Americans with their independence war with England. The whole country committed high treason, punishable by death. The Americans won the war, so they escaped punishment. But it's the past, history, done. Should we punished Americans again for that act of treason? 

     

    As you have stated, while companies didn't comply completely with the regulations, the regulators shirked their responsibility to monitor the companies for compliance.  In the States, Volkswagen Group sold half a million cars that did not fully comply with the NOx emission standards.  This is out of almost 300 million registered cars.  According to the EPA, transportation, is responsible for 5% of all NOx emission and manmade causes are responsible for 40% NOx emission from human activities.  NOx is roughly 6% of the total greenhouse gas emissions from all sources.  

     

    IF, they really do care about the environment, go after commercial trucking, the airlines, and cruise ships first. Personal automobile only accounts for a insignificant portion of the total when factored in those 3. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Another major source of GHG pollution are cargo ships burning bunker oil rich in mercury.  The new e-tron looks very nice in a typical Audi color scheme.  The body control softness is somewhat expected because Audi will launch a S-variant soon.   Have an order in on the new e-tron sportback and expect that to have a bit firmer suspension.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Congrats on the delivery, the interior looks nice, but actually in real it looks even nicer, hard to show all the volumes in the pics kiss

    Funny that your first impressions of an EV were the exact opposite of mine, I was amazed by the screen, the lack of body roll and the amazing acceleration (my California is now officially a slow car...).

    Can’t wait for your “real” range assessment. For the funny story, I managed to use 10% of the battery today but drove only 11 miles  that’s basically a full range under 100 miles. Of course some idling was involved. I also managed to get down to 30 miles of equivalent range for a full battery on a short distance (don’t ask how, but it was fun, and I did not manage to trigger the limp mode, yet angry).


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:

    Another major source of GHG pollution are cargo ships burning bunker oil rich in mercury.  The new e-tron looks very nice in a typical Audi color scheme.  The body control softness is somewhat expected because Audi will launch a S-variant soon.   Have an order in on the new e-tron sportback and expect that to have a bit firmer suspension.  

    Wait, after all this mild EV bashing or at best your bleak resignation about the industry moving to EV you are actually buying one in addition to your future manual 911? Smiley 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:

     

    IF, they really do care about the environment, go after commercial trucking, the airlines, and cruise ships first. Personal automobile only accounts for a insignificant portion of the total when factored in those 3. 

     

    They want to clean city centers and Europe wants to become “clean” continent. You have to start by somewhere and clean the city centers is actually a good start. I am a Petrolhead but we need to do something. 

    Nobody question the worst emissions done by ship and trailers. These are not allowed in city anyway. It will be the next step. My goverment is talking about banning in country flights where a train of less then 5hours will do the job...

     


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    Congrats on the delivery, the interior looks nice, but actually in real it looks even nicer, hard to show all the volumes in the pics kiss

    Funny that your first impressions of an EV were the exact opposite of mine, I was amazed by the screen, the lack of body roll and the amazing acceleration (my California is now officially a slow car...).

    Can’t wait for your “real” range assessment. For the funny story, I managed to use 10% of the battery today but drove only 11 miles  that’s basically a full range under 100 miles. Of course some idling was involved. I also managed to get down to 30 miles of equivalent range for a full battery on a short distance (don’t ask how, but it was fun, and I did not manage to trigger the limp mode, yet angry).

     

    Did about 60km yesterday with the car, took delivery at 95%, and ended the day at 70%. All pure city driving. Maybe I could improve on that later as I was gunning it at times to see what it can do then later my friends all took turn doing the same thing.

    Perfectly acceptable range, 240km on a full charge, that's on par with my old F12 that does 250km on a full tank of gas.

    If I drive it every day, a full charge will last me maybe 5 days before needing a full charge, but I know I won't, so theoretically a full charge will last me 2 weeks of driving. Perfect. 

    Since it drives like a normal car, it does't take long to get use to it, the coasting regen can be adjusted, from barely noticeable to quite a bit of deceleration in 3 steps, still less than Tesla. This is the best part of the Audi e-tron, it does't forced the EV experience to clients.

    There is a power gauge, and for my normal driving in the city, the acceptable acceleration rate from stop only used 20-25% of the available power output. 

    For people that uses a EV car just for city duties, a e-tron trumps a Tesla. The extra range and power from a Tesla is wasted, and the Audi offers a much much nicer interior, and it's cheaper to boot.

    After yesterday debut of the car with my friends, I know I helped Audi sell another 2 e-trons. One of those is a customer stolen from Tesla, her was going to buy a Model X, but now he is getting a e-tron. The other guy called me this morning asking who my Audi salesman is.

    Everyone is waiting for a luxurious EV car, and Audi is the first to delivered. Jaguar too, but that car does't look like a normal car and that's the problem. Most people don't want to buy a weird looking car just so they can have a EV.

    The incoming Taycan is going to disrupt the whole EV segment for sure with the even more luxurious interior and normal looking outline.


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Thank you for your impressions. Range for city driving is more than enough of course. But for city driving, the ETron size is already overkill. Macan size is more than enough.

    The base X is now the same price as the Audi and regen brakes has two levels you can choose in case you did not know. The big difference is the 7 seats capability. The competition of the ETron will be the Y whenever it comes out, not the X. The X is in a higher category. Interior not as nice as Audi but the Y will be way cheaper (will start at $40k for same ETron specs and options). And please note the Y will also seat 7 apparently. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Hahaha, you are so in love with Macan sizing.smiley

    I much prefer Cayenne sized, the e-tron is pretty much spot on width and length, like an inch or 2 longer perhaps. a bit lower also the the Cayenne.


    --

     

     

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    Congrats on the delivery, the interior looks nice, but actually in real it looks even nicer, hard to show all the volumes in the pics kiss

    Funny that your first impressions of an EV were the exact opposite of mine, I was amazed by the screen, the lack of body roll and the amazing acceleration (my California is now officially a slow car...).

    Can’t wait for your “real” range assessment. For the funny story, I managed to use 10% of the battery today but drove only 11 miles  that’s basically a full range under 100 miles. Of course some idling was involved. I also managed to get down to 30 miles of equivalent range for a full battery on a short distance (don’t ask how, but it was fun, and I did not manage to trigger the limp mode, yet angry).

     

    Did about 60km yesterday with the car, took delivery at 95%, and ended the day at 70%. All pure city driving. Maybe I could improve on that later as I was gunning it at times to see what it can do then later my friends all took turn doing the same thing.

    Perfectly acceptable range, 240km on a full charge, that's on par with my old F12 that does 250km on a full tank of gas.

    If I drive it every day, a full charge will last me maybe 5 days before needing a full charge, but I know I won't, so theoretically a full charge will last me 2 weeks of driving. Perfect. 

    Since it drives like a normal car, it does't take long to get use to it, the coasting regen can be adjusted, from barely noticeable to quite a bit of deceleration in 3 steps, still less than Tesla. This is the best part of the Audi e-tron, it does't forced the EV experience to clients.

    There is a power gauge, and for my normal driving in the city, the acceptable acceleration rate from stop only used 20-25% of the available power output. 

    For people that uses a EV car just for city duties, a e-tron trumps a Tesla. The extra range and power from a Tesla is wasted, and the Audi offers a much much nicer interior, and it's cheaper to boot.

    After yesterday debut of the car with my friends, I know I helped Audi sell another 2 e-trons. One of those is a customer stolen from Tesla, her was going to buy a Model X, but now he is getting a e-tron. The other guy called me this morning asking who my Audi salesman is.

    Everyone is waiting for a luxurious EV car, and Audi is the first to delivered. Jaguar too, but that car does't look like a normal car and that's the problem. Most people don't want to buy a weird looking car just so they can have a EV.

    The incoming Taycan is going to disrupt the whole EV segment for sure with the even more luxurious interior and normal looking outline.

    Big plus of the E-tron is not only the nicer interior but the exterior is classier and upscale, and looks like a SUV. And this is Audi's first attempt, with more models coming. Then there is the Taycan in an even higher segment.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    No, the Taycan is in the Model 3 segment. The Taycan will have better handling and interior, but costs twice as much.


     
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