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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    SciFrog:

    Some of you still cannot comprehend that the Teslas are today the coolest cars to own in the USA. But they are. Eventually Europeans will follow with the new tech, as they always do... VW is surely boarding the train now.

    You forget some people live in places where they can enjoy a sportscar as a daily, so sure eventually we will follow, when I'm 90 and can only drive around in a people mover Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     

    I'd rather have one of these puppies...slightly used...mega comfortable and still very fast. Smiley

    Oh boy are slightly used luxury sedans cheap in Germany...this car was around 200k EUR new. Smiley

    IMG_7150.jpg

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    My X is built and in transit... Can’t wait...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I know you get a lot of pushback, but I think its great you’re completely into it. I hope it turns out to be everything you hoped!


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    People have different opinions, needs and means.

    In the end, it is all about expectations. But since there is zero competition today for the X, comparaisons of the whole package are irrelevant. The X is simply the best 7 seater AWD EV, there are no others smiley the fact that it looks different than everything else, has gulwing doors, a giant screen, OTA updates and is made by the coolest mass market automotive brand in the USA are just cherries on the cake.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    People have different opinions, needs and means.

    In the end, it is all about expectations. But since there is zero competition today for the X, comparaisons of the whole package are irrelevant. The X is simply the best 7 seater AWD EV, there are no others smiley the fact that it looks different than everything else, has gulwing doors, a giant screen, OTA updates and is made by the coolest mass market automotive brand in the USA are just cherries on the cake.

    Smiley People should always go for what they like and enjoy. Smiley

    Have you also ordered the Urus or did you choose the X over it? 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Not a fan of waiting for anything so the Urus will wait, maybe will scoop a cheap used one down the road. Plus honestly I would much rather get a new Bentley GT convertible...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Why would you consider anything but Tesla?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    I would much rather get a new Bentley GT convertible...

    I really like the new Bentley GT convertible. Such a beautiful and classy design Smiley


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:

    Why would you consider anything but Tesla?

    Since when Tesla can replicate the ownership experience of a Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston, Bentley and such?Smiley Tesla is a mass market manufacturer, like Porsche is in the SUV market at least. Different cars for different goals.

    Same as watches, sometimes I wear a $3,000 Porsche black chrono, sometimes I wear a $200k Bréguet, and I wear an Apple Watch on the other wrist for health tracking and monitoring instead of a feature restricted Fitbit. In this analogy, Tesla is the Apple Watch, the black chrono is the Macan and the Bréguet is the Bentley (RM would be Ferrari).


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Why do I keep reading about how perfect Tesla is, as an automobile?  In other words, ICEs still have a place in this world while the plebeians use ride sharing services based on EVs.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Perfect? It is very far from perfect. Anyway perfect cars are boring, like the regular 911.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Perfect? It is very far from perfect. Anyway perfect cars are boring, like the regular 911.

    Agreed, perfection can be boring. 

    It is funny to see how Lamborghini handled this on the Huracan Performante: In Strada driving mode, this car basically feels and sounds like a regular car. In Sport mode, it starts to be loud and sporty but still quite comfortable. In Corsa mode, everything seems to be making extra hissing/clacking noises, including chassis and especially the gearbox. I don't know how they do it but in Corsa mode, the car sounds as if it is going to break down soon (in a positive way Smiley), very close to unfiltered race cars. 

    Maybe Porsche should offer some sort of race experience package or whatever name they give it but making the 911 too perfect could be counter-productive.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:

     I don't know how they do it but in Corsa mode, the car sounds as if it is going to break down soon (in a positive way Smiley), very close to unfiltered race cars.

    Lambo has a relatively long history of weakness in their car specially gearboxes...I know they progressed a lot since the old days but not sure you will be able to beat the car to death every weekend like the Porsche can do. Smiley

    it is time to time car only but a fantastic one. Smiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    the-missile:
    RC:

     I don't know how they do it but in Corsa mode, the car sounds as if it is going to break down soon (in a positive way Smiley), very close to unfiltered race cars.

    Lambo has a relatively long history of weakness in their car specially gearboxes...I know they progressed a lot since the old days but not sure you will be able to beat the car to death every weekend like the Porsche can do. Smiley

    it is time to time car only but a fantastic one. Smiley

    This changed a long time ago, especially since Audi took over... The Huracan is bulletproof (tech). Look how many tuned(!) supercharged Huracan are out there driving around without any issues. The turbo charged versions are a different story, only good for drag racing. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I am yet to see one guy trashing his lambo at every track day like the Porsche guys do here or at least finish the track day. I understand your enthusiasm about it but so far I did not witnessed it...

    so far with the climate here, Mclaren (650S, MP4, 570), Mercs (AMG GTR), Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, Subaru...all failed. the list can continue...angry

    So far the Senna is doing good, lotus and the radicals as well and I can ensure you we drive hard.kiss

    I have see a couple of 720S playing but the guys are not fast enough...indecision

    we have a multi club event this saturday, will try to take pics and video and share some content here.

     


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    the-missile:

    I am yet to see one guy trashing his lambo at every track day like the Porsche guys do here or at least finish the track day. I understand your enthusiasm about it but so far I did not witnessed it...

    so far with the climate here, Mclaren (650S, MP4, 570), Mercs (AMG GTR), Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, Subaru...all failed. the list can continue...angry

    So far the Senna is doing good, lotus and the radicals as well and I can ensure you we drive hard.kiss

    I have see a couple of 720S playing but the guys are not fast enough...indecision

    we have a multi club event this saturday, will try to take pics and video and share some content here.

     

     

    I did. My Huracan lasted 2 sessions before the brakes are goneSmiley


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Lol. I was waiting that one. indecision there is no substitute.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Returning to near topic, Wharton has a well-reason article on Musk, Tesla, and the SEC.  http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/elon-musk-sec-twitter/  One highly recommends giving the article a read.  

    The few Lamborghini owners I know that have tracked their cars seem to quickly move to dedicated track cars.  Evidently, the performance is too intoxicating and something stronger is needed to assuage that demand.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The Model Y will kill off whatever demand is left of the Model 3.

    As SciFrog have mentioned, the small crossover segment is eating into small sedans' market share greatly. They basically compete in the same segment. So why buy a Model 3 when a Model Y has better interior room for basically the same cost? 

    Tesla won't be expanding their market share much if at all with the Model Y, it will either be existing Model 3 owners moving towards a bigger Model Y, or customers that were contemplating buying a Model 3 and will get a Model Y instead.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    The Model Y will kill off whatever demand is left of the Model 3.

    As SciFrog have mentioned, the small crossover segment is eating into small sedans' market share greatly. They basically compete in the same segment. So why buy a Model 3 when a Model Y has better interior room for basically the same cost? 

    Tesla won't be expanding their market share much if at all with the Model Y, it will either be existing Model 3 owners moving towards a bigger Model Y, or customers that were contemplating buying a Model 3 and will get a Model Y instead.

     

    Could not agree more and this is yet another indication of the lack of suitable guidance at Tesla.  The hottest sector in automobiles is crossovers, which are naturals extensions for EVs as the larger platform and higher hip points take advantage of the EV skateboard configuration.  Instead, Musk and company targeted mid-sized sedans, which has the largest decline in sales next to sports coupés.  

    I even question Musk's intent to move Tesla down market into more mass production when cash flow is an important issue with the company's viability.  Maintaining premiums is key to success and the market did reward the company both in terms of sales and in the equity markets for following that strategy.  Following Henry Ford's strategy of price reductions does not make any sense.  The Model T created the mass market but today Tesla is a follower and a smaller, upstart with little cash should never start a price war with incumbents with much deeper pockets.  Those incumbents can continue to outspend you, through lower prices, until the upstart is insolvent or moves into a different market sector.

    Returning to Ford and the Model T.  It was never a permanent competitive advantage and once General Motors, through Chevrolet, offered a more customizable product with the choice of colors, the market moved in favor of General Motors. Ford ever since has been number two to GM.  On color, Ford originally offered the Model T in colors and shifted to only black because that paint dried quicker.  This lowered the company's working capital needs.  General Motor's largest shareholder was DuPont, which developed quick drying lacquers for the automaker.  Colors and a styling studio shifted market demand away from the lowest cost producer.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Model Y will totally eat into Model 3 sales. But combined they can still eat up significantly into the ICE market share now that Tesla has lower priced vehicles. Do not forget that once you factor in gas savings, tax rebates, lower maintenance and better resale value, the cheap Teslas have an amazing True Cost to Own.

    Also Tesla has access easy to capital as been mentioned here. They will build 400,000 cars or so this year, they are not a startup anymore.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    That's Tesla speak. They don't have easy access capital, they will need to pay higher than market price for capital.

    Yes the market is full of people with money ready to lend out, but Tesla is a high risk company vs say just about every one else. I don't mind lending say Apple or GM money at a reasonable return, but if I were to lend Tesla, the interest rate will be a lot higher and collateral will be a lot more too. 

    And yes the EV market is expanding, and trying to eat into a bit of ICE engine market share, but Model Y will eat into Model 3 sales in a much bigger chunk than the market is expanding. Especially when the Model Y comes out everyone else will already have their own EV competing in the EV segment. 

    They 'might' build 400,000 cars, not they will, there is a big difference. That's assuming the demand for Model S, Model S AND their hopeful demand of the Model 3 is still there. Which it will not, as some of the deposit holders will wait for the Model 3 instead while others asked for refunds and perhaps jumped ship already.

    Entities most interested in the Model Y will car sharing companies, as you said, lower running cost and no fuel cost and whatever else. Their clients are the people that had no interest in buying a car, EV or ICE, in the first place, so no one actually lost market share to EV. But the Smart car and Mercedes CLA would be most affected though, as car sharing companies mostly used those as their rentals before.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Two points - Tesla needed economies of scale to succeed. This required volume at a lower price point. 

    It is because sedans are not in high demand that the X and Y were introduced.  Good move, no?  In terms of model 3 demand in two years - he has two years to adjust model3 production based on massive number crunching (not seat of the pants guessing). The two share the same basic parts so moving to the other and cutting back on models which don’t sell is likely much easier for Tesla. 

    If he had not introduce the Y you all would be complaining that he is missing the SUV boat. Lol. He can’t win - sow the seeds of self doubt folks. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    the-missile:

    I am yet to see one guy trashing his lambo at every track day like the Porsche guys do here or at least finish the track day. I understand your enthusiasm about it but so far I did not witnessed it...

    Many Lambo owners I know also have at least one Porsche in the garage. Nobody wants to track a car where every single damage costs half a fortune. Porsche 911 are usually "cheap", also much cheaper to maintain and repair, so they are the logical conclusion for the track.

    Also, let's get the juices flowing here: Around 1700-1900 Huracan Performante were built so far since it's introduction almost two years ago. In comparison: At least 9000(!), probably more, 911 GT3/GT3 RS made it to customers in the same time period. Smiley

    so far with the climate here, Mclaren (650S, MP4, 570), Mercs (AMG GTR), Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, Subaru...all failed. the list can continue...angry

    There are some pretty fast Corvettes on the track... Cost is always a factor. I have a friend who owns two BMW for the track only, an older M3 (V8) and the M2. Highly modified cars. Another friend has an old 325i(?) for the track only, also highly modified. Both have Porsches, also other (mostly older) sports cars. They don't want to crash the more valuable cars.

    So far the Senna is doing good, lotus and the radicals as well and I can ensure you we drive hard.kiss

    The Senna is an interesting product but I doubt it could overtake the SVJ on the Nordschleife. Have you seen Shmee's YouTube video with that track comparison (Senna, SVJ and GT2 RS)? At least Shmee mentioned that the Senna was driving on Trofeo R, while the SVJ was driving on Corsas (road tire). GT2 RS was driving on Cup 2 R and was modded, so... Pointless comparison.

    I have see a couple of 720S playing but the guys are not fast enough...indecision

    The 720S is a very fast car...on the Autobahn. Smiley Our driving group had a 720S joining last weekend (I didn't join because I wouldn't have stood a chance in a C63 S Cab Smiley and my wife had the E63 with her, going skiing in Austria) and while one could argue that the roads were still a bit cold (we had up to 20°C in the mountains), the 720S couldn't keep up with the others. The driver is a guy who joined the driving group often in other cars, he knows how to drive. 720S has serious traction issues at the speeds the group was traveling, so... Only on the way from Munich to Garmisch (mostly Autobahn), the 720S "destroyed" the other cars. I can see why some car enthusiasts prefer the new 600LT over the 720S. Smiley 

    we have a multi club event this saturday, will try to take pics and video and share some content here.

     

    Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Chinese Electric Buses Are Making a Much Bigger Impact on Oil Demand Than All Those Teslas

    https://jalopnik.com/chinese-electric-buses-are-making-a-much-bigger-impact-1833464505


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    Chinese Electric Buses Are Making a Much Bigger Impact on Oil Demand Than All Those Teslas

    https://jalopnik.com/chinese-electric-buses-are-making-a-much-bigger-impact-1833464505

    Hmm...the question is where the energy for these buses is coming from. Coal power plants? Nuclear plants (which would at least be better...environmentally)?

    Speaking of China: There are speculations that the Indian population has surpassed the Chinese population. I kind of have the feeling that a new economic giant is rising in China's backyard, incl. it's future impact on the environment, positive or negative.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    And Elon is up to his old tricks.

    Pushing employees to deliver cars as the quarter drawing to a close, trying to artificially inflate the delivery number to make Wall Street think they did delivered on their promise.

    "Quality control out the window, we can fix those problems later or not at all", they NEEDED extra sales number to prop up stock price.


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Tesla cans requirement for annual services:

    https://apple.news/AFmOhynwuSSqI-FT3aIMCAw

    There is simply no need, which will save money for all owners down the road.

    Again, if VW group imposed that on their dealer, they would have riot on hand.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    And Elon is up to his old tricks.

    Pushing employees to deliver cars as the quarter drawing to a close, trying to artificially inflate the delivery number to make Wall Street think they did delivered on their promise.

    "Quality control out the window, we can fix those problems later or not at all", they NEEDED extra sales number to prop up stock price.

    Well we will have some first hand experience since my car is in that delivery batch Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
    Whoopsy:

    And Elon is up to his old tricks.

    Pushing employees to deliver cars as the quarter drawing to a close, trying to artificially inflate the delivery number to make Wall Street think they did delivered on their promise.

    "Quality control out the window, we can fix those problems later or not at all", they NEEDED extra sales number to prop up stock price.

    Well we will have some first hand experience since my car is in that delivery batch Smiley

     

    And I hope your car will be delivered flawlessly, you been waiting and wanting it! Smiley


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