Board: Porsche Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread

    Are you happy with your Porsche? Soon...maybe not.

    Did you buy a Mercedes E55 AMG, S55 AMG, S600 or CL600 lately? Yes? You're not gonna like what you'll read now.
    Do you own a 996 Turbo with Tiptronic or just a nice 996? You're not gonna like what you'll read here either.

    Autum, this year. Mercedes introduces the new E55 AMG, the overworked S55 AMG, S600 and CL600.
    All four models will accelerate from 0-200 kph (125 mph) in around 16 seconds, a blink of an eye faster than the 996 Turbo and definetely faster than the rest of the 996 line.
    With the exception of the E55 AMG which gets 476 HP, all other mentioned models get 500 HP!

    I'm disappointed with Porsche. Whenever I talked to them and asked about more power, they told me that there is no demand for more power among customers. And lately I even got a slap into my face, telling me "look how many people ordered the C4 S, they want good looks and not more power".
    If Porsche customers don't want more power, which I highly doubt, why do Mercedes customers want (or need?) more power? This is a question Porsche has to answer to me.
    Are Mercedes customers more sporty now and Porsche customers grew older or was just some Mercedes CEO to be outrun by a Porsche every time he drove to work in the Stuttgart area.
    Mercedes does customers a great favor: they upgrade the S55 AMG, S600 and CL600 by almost 140 HP(!). Not 20 HP more, not 50 HP more, almost 140 HP more. Now that's customer friendly. Performance on the mentioned Mercedes models improves substantially and I already see the grin on some Mercedes S class drivers when they approach a 996 from behind.

    Don't get me wrong: I know that a Mercedes S-class will never outrun a Porsche, not even a Boxster, on the track or on nice country roads. But I still can't get used to the thought that I'm driving 125 mph on the Autobahn and some S-class driver with suit and hat wants to pass me because I'm not driving fast enough. Ouch.

    Let's do a poll.

    Should Porsche increase the power output on their cars? If yes, by how much?
    Yes, by at least 30 HP.
    Yes, by at least 50 HP.
    Yes, by at least 100 HP.
    Yeah, gimme me as much as possible, baby!
    No, power output is sufficient.
    No, more power is dangerous.
    No, who needs more power anyway?!

    I hate doing such polls but I still don't feel comfortable to see a Mercedes S-class in my back trying to play around with me.

    I'd like to know your opinion on this subject. Please feel free to post your feelings and try to tell us exactly what you think.
    While other car manufacturers offer more and more power on their cars, Porsche gives us HP figures as medicine, little spoon by little spoon. I don't understand that. Honestly.

    Here are some pictures of what you may encounter

    If you see these exhaust pipes, beware.

    If you see this front in your rear view mirror, beware.

    Who needs the Cayenne Turbo? Buying a Mercedes S600 or S55 AMG as a family car might be the better alternative.
    To be serious: if Mercedes does the same upgrade on their SUVs, they get my money.

    Re: Are you happy with your Porsche? Soon...maybe not.

    I agree. Adding 20 more HP every 2 or 3 years doesn't make any sense to me at all. This argument has been going on for a while as to why Porsche doesn't increase the power. Do you all think that Porsche really listens or cares if their customers want more HP or not?
    As long as they got their balance sheet to their liking they're A OK.
    RC, seeing a Mercedes trying to pass Porsche is not as bad as seeing a Ford Mustang trying to pass you, that simply pisses me off. I have friends at work that they brag about their M3s and Mustangs left and right and truely I'm very concern HP-wise that Porsche is lagging behind by far.

    I wish Porsche would conduct a poll and find out from their existing clients what they like. Hell, for that matter they can see how much Porsche owners spend their money in after-market tunnig and performance enhancements that's a kind of money I see porsche is loosing and Dr. Wiedeking should look at this sector more closely or sonner or later they'll lose their loyal customers to BMW, Mercedes and such.

    I meant "a blink of an eye faster than..."

    ...the Turbo with TIPTRONIC" of course. Sorry guys.

    Re: Are you happy with your Porsche? Soon...maybe not.


    I'm not that concerned about power (400 - 500 HP is fine with me). One has always to think about tires and brakes.
    How about less mass? Imagine a turbo with 1300 kg!


    I understand..

    I think Mercedes needed to increase the power output to compete with the new V10 500hp engine which I read many positive things about, and this engine will also going to be in the 7 series, 6 series...etc. I think this explain the logic why mercedes went into this horsepower race. the M company vs the AMG...

    But in Porsche point of view, The competitor in the sport car sector for example Ferrari 360, Honda NSX...etc have less hp than a Porsche Turbo or even a Carrera. There are no reason for them to increase power if there are no compeitior in the market with higher hp. But soon that will change once the baby lambo with 500hp came out. I am confident by the time the baby lambo released, the next turbo will have well over 500hp consider the resources Porsche have.. lets keep our finger cross Its a shame that we have to live with sport cars that are build logically for the market, i guess thats the fact of life

    Re: I understand..

    I think every decision taken by car manufacturers is driven by money matters. But here's exactly the logical mistake some manufacturers make: sports cars are about emotions, much more than limousines, SUVs or middle class cars. I don't buy a 100000 $ car without having certain feelings about this thing.
    Emotions make people spend more money and feel good about their buying decisions. Porsche has played the emotional factor very well over the past decades but right now, they're on the way to a mass producer. And mass producers don't care much about emotions but about money.
    I understand that Porsche has to earn money, that's fine with me. Everybody who can afford a Porsche has to earn money too. But why can I choose from dozens of different colors and not get more power and sportiness? The powerkits are a good beginning but 20 HP more on the 996 and 30 HP more on the Turbo are ridiculous. And asking so much money for it is more than a slap into the loyal customer's face. As Porsche fanatic as I am, I'm sometimes on the brick to sell my Turbo and forget about all this Porsche hype. Why? Because I started to realize that Porsche is getting more and more attached to comfort and not to "sports" anymore.
    It is funny: Mercedes moves more and more to the real sports car market and Porsche moves more and more to the comfort oriented grand tourers. What's the logic?
    Porsche lacks an AMG or M like department. Why not putting Porsche Motorsports in that position? How about a Porsche 996 Turbo PM? Or a 996 C2 PM?
    Exclusive department is the right way but the actual image of this department is more of a "haircutter" like. If you want a different color, you go there.

    Once upon a time, the 993 Turbo was one of it's kind. A real revolution braking the 400 HP barrier. And now? The 996 Turbo has almost the same performance figures as the old 993 Turbo, not to speak about the Turbo S who even outruns the 996 Turbo. Where's the logic about that?

    If Porsche doesn't start to learn about our power needs, I have to choose a different car manufacturer next time.
    The Lamborghini Murcielago is already my favorite and if they succeed building a baby lambo with great performance figures, they might get my money.

    Porsche, wake up! Before it is too late.


    I don't think that Porsche (or any other car manufacturer) can reduce weight anymore without substantially raising production cost. Reason seems to be safety requirements worldwide. And most customers never cared about weight but about power figures. The new SL55 AMG is a very good example: I recently met a guy at the fuel station who asked me how much power my Turbo has. When I told him, he was kind of disappointed. "But the new SL has almost 500 HP" he told me. I tried to explain to him power/weight ratios and other things but this guy didn't seem to care less.

    Power figures sell cars, no doubt about it. Weight figures might impress enthusiasts like us but most customers don't even know how much their car weights.
    Give me a Porsche with 1300 kg and I'd be satisfied with 400 HP. But this is not gonna happen anymore. Even the new expensive Carrera GT will exceed 1300 kg as far as I heard. And this car is no bargain.

    Let's face it: the only method to cope with increasing weight is...power. Mercedes learned that, BMW started to learn that and Jaguar just learned it too. I'm sure that Ferrari and other manufacturers will learn that lesson too pretty soon and I bet that the next 360 Modena (whatever the name will be) will have at least something around 500 HP.

    Well said, RC.

    I agree with you %100 on PM department. Porsche, wake up and smell the coffee before is too late.

    sad but true

    Now a day, I see more and more fashion woman driving a Turbo then car enthusasit like us Many of my car friends already gave up buying Porsche, or another word, they don't think of Porsche as a sport car company anymore. They want sportiness not comfort...

    I think Porsche have already forgotten the niche and reason why Porsche exisit in the first place. Instead of a sport car company, they are moving more toward VW and Mercedes. One important point Porsche don't realize is that, it will be very difficult for Porsche to be more like Mercedes. They should focus on what they do best.. a true, raw, powerful sport cars that can give people strong emotional feeling . The truth is, when people want to buy a Grand Touer or a comfort powerful car... They wont buy a Porsche but a Mercedes or BMW... When people want to buy a sport car... They won't buy Porsche either... Soon or later Porsche will realize that!

    I think your idea of creating a motorsport department for Porsche is interesting, a department which only focus to customers like us, power and sport hungry people who don't care about comfort. I once remembered Mercedes AMG offer a 450hp factory power upgrade for the C43 cheaper than the 996 power kit.

    Re: I understand..

    i completely agree with your point and, currently, i would go for a 360 modena or -- in theory ;) -- for the murcielago as well. although i'm confident that the next 997-series will be a nice car.

    but if porsche would establish some kind of "AMG department" it would be like filing chapter 11, product-wise.

    the name porsche itself should stand for "better and sportier" than any AMG or M or whatever. sadly, it doesn't. these days it stands for "yes we do custom cockpit tailoring so the leather does fit your wife's lipstick color" :p

    Re: sad but true

    No doubt that Porsche is deviating from their original path of making sports cars but may be they're trying to get their balance sheets look real nice for a sale out. I heard that they'll be looking for a buyer like Ferrari did to Fiat.
    As you all mentioned and I have noticed for a while, at least since production of 996, Porsche doesn't stand for performance anymore. If my wife tells me she likes the car (Porsche) because it has cup holders or sun visor light so she can touch up her make up that ain't a sports car to me. I liked it when she used to complain about not a good stereo, engine is too laud, no cup holders or a expensive car with no glove comportment. By the way my wife is my measuring cup to enlighten me which car is a true sports car .

    For that matter, no offense to anyone, when Porsche started talking about SUV I knew Porsche was gradually getting away from being a true sports car manufacturer even though I myself may be getting one for the wife and the baby.
    To me Ferrari still stands for true sports car manufacturer and they'll remain that way for a long long time although they were bought out but they never lost their dignity of being true street legal race car manufacturer. I hope the God Porsche will snap out this dream soon because I love Porsche and it is hard for me personally to change teams .

    Re: sad but true

    My first post on RC's site, but I always enjoyed his prickly responses on that other 996tt site (don't bother with it anymore -just rennlist). I really appreciate the "News" section on your site which gives us an insiders update on what is coming from Germany -thank you.
    I am stuck in the past with my 993tt which I have owned for the past 6 years. It is very modified and I am in the process of extracting even more power from it
    The 986 and 996 models never really did anything for me as I felt the cars had lost their raw edge which I had enjoyed in my previous 5 911s. I think the Cayenne suits the current direction of Porsche and may even buy one, however a recent hot weather spy shot of the VW Toureg and Cayenne side by side makes me think that visually the VW is the more attractive SUV.
    Porsche have always ripped us off in the UK, not only in retail prices, but when they started offering aftermarket options (after Techart showed them the way) the prices were always ludicrous. I can't see any prospect of Porsche changing direction to suit us enthusiasts, since they are making more money than ever and are the most profitable car manufacturer in the world

    Re: sad but true


    Times change and rich people usually get bored fast of their toys. Means: Porsche will have to rely on loyal customers as we are. I hope they'll understand that sooner or later, before some Porsche fanatics like me change their affection.

    The Touareg might prove itself as a real problem for Porsche: it looks pretty much as the Cayenne (c'mon Porsche, do you think people are blind? ) and VW promised to deliver very interesting engines. They know they can't sell a Touareg W12 at 100000 EUR, so they'll probably sell it little over the Cayenne S price tag. So what will the customer choose: a 12-cyl. engine with more than 400 HP or a 340 HP in a Porsche SUV at almost the same price tag? I know this is now pretty hypothetical and I might prove to be wrong but I'm sure that the Touareg will be a serious competitor to the Cayenne.
    In Germany and especially in Europe, the Diesel engine will sell like hell. There is a rumor that Porsche plans a Diesel engine for the Cayenne but this might be the beginning of the end of the Cayenne. I'm not sure all Porsche customers would accept a Diesel model from Porsche.
    Porsche makes a strategic mistake and they'll have to learn it sooner or later: they should give their traditional customers (sports car customers) excessive power and sportiness and I'm sure that a lot of us enthusiasts would care less about a possible Diesel model or whatever they want to build.
    Give me a 996 Turbo with 600 HP at the same price tag as the actual Turbo and Porsche can even build an electric car, I don't care. Porsche marketing isn't doing a good job but as long as the cars sell themselves, they don't seem to care.
    And when they start to care, it might be too late.

    RC, got a suggestion

    Whenever you are going to Porsche factory for the annual tour, do you think it would be reasonable to print these comments and take it there (kind of like a petition) or Porsche would care less.
    I'm just wondering if they really have a clue as to how their loyal customers see the image of Porsche nowadays.

    Re: sad but true


    Everything I read here gives a sense. And I think that It doesn't matter which manufactorer, a Porsche has to be to 90% the fastest car on the track and on the ROAD! I drive my Porsche since August 2001 and I was only one time on the track. (A1 Ring, Austria). But on the Autobahn I drive it at least every day.
    Everybody can say now, ok ok even if a M5 is faster on the autobahn, on the track it won't have any chance. I know as well as you this is Bullshit! No body likes the feeling to lose, doesn't matter in what.
    But the idea of PM is not a good idea. Because of the fact that "M" and "AMG" are producing the sport cars of each modell.
    BUT PORSCHE is producing only sport cars. I mean, a porsche doesn't matter which modell, should have the maximum power to be more than just competitive. Because AMG and M are challanging Porsche, right?!
    A PM department would just be one way more to take from us more money. Like the powerkit stuff.
    I don't really care that porsche offers a SUV now, and maybe later also a limo. As long as the 911 will return to be real a sports car with a powerfull motor. And if somebody likes to have some options so he should have the chance to order what ever he likes(navi, different colors, cup holders, etc.). But things like Power, suspension and everything else that maks a sports car to the best in its rows should be included from the begining. Or do you have a option like powerkit or sport suspension for the modena?


    I wonder...

    If VW or Mercedes bought Porsche during its crisis period, Do you guys think Cayenne will even exist today? Or Will the 996 model be different then the one today?

    Re: I wonder...

    No Cayenne and the 996 might be a bit different but not by much. Maybe more power.
    As far as I know, Porsche wanted to cooperate with Mercedes on the Cayenne but they finally gave up talks because Mercedes wanted an option to be able to control or even buy Porsche. This is a rumor though.

    I don't mind

    if Mercedes bought Porsche, at least by then, Porsche will be able to build true sport cars without worrying about resourses. They only need to worry about satisfying customers like us

    Re: I don't mind

    yes absolutely -- i do not understand all this fuzz about "independent manufacturer" at all. the porsche cayenne shares the platform with the VW tuareg and it's chassis is even built in the VW plant in bratislava -- so what's the advantage then? ferrari belongs to fiat, but (at least i think ) does not have to share any platforms with fiats or alfas

    any major car company out there who wants to swallow our beloved make? PLEASE!!

    and then, please put porsche back on the international race tracks and tell the engineers that they can focus on their key competence again: building light sports cars

    Re: I don't mind

    The production facility in Leipzig/Germany will be part of a production network comprising the main Porsche factory in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen (Germany) and Volkswagen plants in Bratislava (Slovakia), Braunschweig (Germany) and Hannover/Wolfsburg (Germany). Sheet metal pressings for the Cayenne will come from Hannover or Wolfsburg, axle and suspension components from Braunschweig, and the body shell will be built in Bratislava. The heart of the SUV, its engine, will be produced in Zuffenhausen, where engines are currently produced for all other Porsche models.

    I bet it wouldn't have been a problem to produce the Cayenne in Bratislava but I'm not sure Porsche customers would have accepted that.
    It is pretty strange that Porsche didn't go for a production facility in the US (like Mercedes and BMW did) but maybe they thought that US customers wouldn't appreciate a US build Cayenne. I think this was a strategic mistake which makes the Cayenne even more expensive but hey, I'm not working for Porsche, right?!

    Re: I don't mind

    i agree-- it would make perfect sense to produce the cayenne in the US. it's the key market for this car and so there would be only advantages for porsche (currency rate, shipping etc.) -- and IMHO the customers wouldn't say "hell no, i don't want an US-build cayenne, i want my cayenne parts from bratislava"

    back to the engine: maybe i'm wrong but isn't there a V6 or V8 diesel from audi in the pipeline? IHMO that could be the most successful model, at least in europe. and then it's really the question, if this porsche deserves it's badge

    V6 and Diesel

    Yes, a VW (not Audi as far as I know) V6 is planned for the Cayenne as an entry level engine.
    I'm also sure that this V6 will sell best because it'll be the cheapest Cayenne version.
    The Diesel engine is, as far as I heard, already planned and ready to go around 2004. Power will be at least 300 HP, torque at least in the 600 Nm range.
    Now here's the "problem" with the Cayenne: Porsche tried in the past to present the Cayenne as the Porsche of the SUVs, means: a sports car camouflaged as a SUV. Even the Cayenne Turbo might not really be even near a sports car but with 450 HP and such a straight line performance, people might "forgive" this. The V6 and Diesel won't have any sports car ambitions and I'm afraid that they actually will finally destroy Porsche's image as a premium sports car manufacturer.
    Fiat is stupid: now would be the time of an entry-level Ferrari at the cost of the 996 with high quality and good performance. They could sell dozens of thousands of these cars and hit Porsche hard.

    Re: I believe...

    "The V6 and Diesel won't have any sports car ambitions and I'm afraid that they actually will finally destroy Porsche's image as a premium sports car manufacturer."

    Porsche already decided to slowly transform the company to one of VW,Mercedes and BMW. The truth is, this is really the only way to survive independently, and the release of the Cayenne is only the preview. Wait until the new 4 door Porsche, Porsche mini van...etc My prediction is that Porsche will have more than 8 different model line by 2010. Our son or grandson will think of Porsche as a luxury car company rather than a sport car company. Sad but true...

    Re: shareholder value above all!

    wisely spoken, william! i completely agree
    i think you could start a career as a fortune teller

    Terrific post! I am shock by the success of

    C4S.Unfortunately, Porsche may be right. Todays buyer is more interested in appearance than overall performance.

    Re: Terrific post! I am shock by the success of

    Well, so are Ferrari customers. Or why would somebody buy a car which performs 2 seconds slower from 0-125 mph at almost the same price tag. And even 8 seconds difference to 150 mph.
    But to be serious: yes, the success of the C4 S is a pure shock for me too.

    Re: Terrific post! I am shock by the success of

    mhmm i don't agree to your ferrari comparison -- ok, the modena performance specs are not a big match for the equally priced 996TT, but the feeling you get while driving a ferrari is IMHO more motor sports than anything i've yet experienced. you feel the spirit of F1 and pure racing.

    please don't take this to serious what i say now, but IMHO a ferrari is for enthusiasts, while a C4S is one for the poseurs.

    Re: V6 and Diesel

    interesting point about producing an entry level ferrari. never thought about that...

    but i think this could be dangerous for ferrari as well -- di montezemlo's strategy is not that bad: keep the production numbers stable and so keep the prices and the demand VERY stable but make money on other areas, like merchandising and ferrari theme parks (at least i've heard they are planned). it's IMHO the same with big designer brands like versace, gucci, dolce & gabbana etc.: they make the BIG money with licensing their brand for perfumes, glasses, low cost ranges (versace jeans, D&G) but keep their core brands very expensive and at a top level image value.

    Re: yes, but...

    RC...this is a big problem...

    I've a friend with the SL55 AMG and is fast very fast,but to drive is orrrible!!! is like drive a car in a push the gas pedal and steering the wheel....all the rest is maked from the wheel spin and no fun to drive...yes but for the people as 500hp and this is more important that all....

    My Turbo is not an X50 and maybe after 5 o 6 months from delivery i need more power..but i'm sure that 480/500 HP i'm faster and faster of a MB with 500 hp...becouse with 420 HP i'm near and sure not back of a 500hp MB....true??

    Sure if Porsche offer a 550 or 600 HP Turbo at the same price tag is a great thing,but what must do Lamborghini???a 1000 HP Murcielago???

    The problem for me is not that Porsche as few HP is that Audi(RS6),MB and the next BMW M5 have too much power....

    I think that for MY2004 Porsche sell the Turbo with 40/50 HP more and MB is definitively back from the factory

    This is my opinion...




    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 1/28/22 12:18 AM
    517818 1295
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 1/22/22 9:42 PM
    187715 1158
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 1/9/22 7:08 PM
    75895 401
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 1/22/22 12:34 AM
    74238 761
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 1/3/22 7:55 AM
    56697 531
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    50805 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    14153 29
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 1/15/22 10:41 PM
    1264 1
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    478118 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    393794 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/25/21 12:31 AM
    388961 3949
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    354615 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 1/28/22 3:10 PM
    325948 2654
    Porsche 992 GT3 1/26/22 4:50 PM
    297574 3321
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    258006 1587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    170361 1379
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    121787 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    106114 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/22/21 7:10 PM
    98081 1246
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    84046 209
    AMG AMG GT R 1/12/22 6:30 PM
    CGX car nut
    77084 828
    Lambo Aventador and SV 1/14/22 2:22 AM
    76822 699
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 1/29/22 12:23 AM
    CGX car nut
    57921 1442
    Others Bugatti Chiron 1/13/22 11:07 PM
    45619 507
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 1/8/22 5:39 PM
    44142 1574
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 12/15/21 8:04 PM
    42784 533
    Porsche GT4RS 1/23/22 1:51 PM
    42460 740
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    31963 394
    Ferrari 488 Replacement 4/17/21 8:28 PM
    28602 370
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 7/21/21 6:22 PM
    27849 592
    247 items found, displaying 1 to 30.