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    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

     I understand what you wanted, but it is a bit difficult for me to take any other pics of the car right now :)


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    AlexGil:

     I understand what you wanted, but it is a bit difficult for me to take any other pics of the car right now :)

     Of course.... the car seems to be winter resting under a warm cover just next to the ring Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Gnil:
    AlexGil:

     I understand what you wanted, but it is a bit difficult for me to take any other pics of the car right now :)

     Of course.... the car seems to be winter resting under a warm cover just next to the ring Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

     Not bad ;) You know where it is


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Gnil:
    ... the car seems to be winter resting under a warm cover just next to the ring

    ... not far from a roundabout!


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    AlexGil:

     This is all I got now.. Anyone know where this is?DSC02826.JPG

    Is this the garage of "rent4ring" near the Ring?


    --

    ONUR

    11 M3 Coupe AW

    09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    From latest issue 347 of Christophorus Porsche'e own magazine written by Chris Harris:

     


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    AlexGil:

     DSC02826.JPG


    Looks gorgeous Smiley


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 2.jpgEasy RT Sig Pt 3.jpg


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Very interesting post. Dont quite understand all the engineering references but have driven last weekend a freinds 2RS and have driven a 3RS with my own 3RS coming in 10 days time (1st March). My comments from the driving seat are that the 3RS is much more flexible and forgiving on the road and the 2RS much stiffer. Not surprising with another 200 or so BHP. From the drivers seat it would be most likely the supension set ups were different as quite a markedly (in my view ) different feel. If it is out and out power then the 2 is scary but for the more precise tool in my view and experience then the 3RS is the better car. I felt (looks aside as the 2 looked superb) the 3 has more than enough power and a great drive while in the 2 power and speed dominated and in my hands (decent road driver but nothing special) the 3 was much more involving , fun and manageable.

    When driving no way suspension feels the same on dreadful Scottish roads.

     

    Very interested in outcome.

    regards


    --
    997 TT Ferrari 430 Scuderia Range Rover Supercharged Bentley GT Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder

    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Barney:

    Very interesting post. Dont quite understand all the engineering references but have driven last weekend a freinds 2RS and have driven a 3RS with my own 3RS coming in 10 days time (1st March). My comments from the driving seat are that the 3RS is much more flexible and forgiving on the road and the 2RS much stiffer. Not surprising with another 200 or so BHP. From the drivers seat it would be most likely the supension set ups were different as quite a markedly (in my view ) different feel. If it is out and out power then the 2 is scary but for the more precise tool in my view and experience then the 3RS is the better car. I felt (looks aside as the 2 looked superb) the 3 has more than enough power and a great drive while in the 2 power and speed dominated and in my hands (decent road driver but nothing special) the 3 was much more involving , fun and manageable.

    When driving no way suspension feels the same on dreadful Scottish roads.

     

    Very interested in outcome.

    regards

     No doubt, the GT3RS limited edition (which will be introduced shortly) will be the better track car than the GT2RS for 99.9% of all users. The GT2RS is more interesting for those who also use the car on the Autobahn (no speed limit Smiley) on a regular basis. There you can use the torque/power - which the GT3RS/GT3RS ltd. edition lacks. For track use only there are probably better cars than the GT2RS.


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Sadly no autobahns in scotland but plenty of lovely twisty roads where the 3RS excells. 450 bhp and only 1370kg is more than enough for me anyway.

     

    My dealer tells me LE is on GT3 not RS but only rumours.

    Was there ever a response from Porsche on the subject of this thrread ?

     

    cheers


    --
    997 TT Ferrari 430 Scuderia Range Rover Supercharged Bentley GT Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder

    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Today´s SportAuto just mentioned in an engine thread that the RS version with 4.0 litre displacement is planned for this summer Engine output supposed to be 500 hp. Its launch should be fairly certain then...


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    I started this thread and as of today I am a very satisfied owner of a GT2RS.

    Not only did I eventually get a reply (pasted below) from Porsche, I was able to enjoy hours of one-on-one discussion with Andreas Preuninger (a true gentleman) at the West Coast USA delivery event a few weeks ago. The bottom line is that the suspension and a great deal of other engineering is quite unique to the GT2RS, and my concerns were not borne out by the reality.

    The car is a monster. Let me also note I own a 2010 GT3RS and last year I did over 50 track days. The GT2RS totally blows the GT3RS (a superb car!) away in almost any measure. The handling is razor sharp and it pulls like a diesel locomotive. The GT2RS is designed for the track, to say otherwise is simply "misinformed" .

    This is Porsche's reply to me:

    "The GT2 RS has lightweight helper springs on the rear suspension, the  GT2 and the GT3 RS have not. The spring system is substantially lighter and very similar to the one of a race car using this layout. Spring rates are different too.

     The front springs on the GT2 RS have 7 Turns, the ones on GT2 have 9 and therefore are heavier. The total weight saving alone on springs of the GT2 RS in comparison to the GT2 are more than 3 kgs. (The front springs  on GT3 RS have 7 Turns as well and therefore are similar to the GT2 RSs). The joints of the lower rear wishbone are unibal on the GT2 RS. The GT2  and GT3 RS have conventional elasto kinematic joints. The joints of the rear upper tie bars are unibal on the GT2 RS, the ones on GT2 and GT3 RS are conventional. The joints where the damper is mounted to the rear wheel carrier are unibal as well (not on GT2 and GT3 RS).

    The GT2 RSs rear wishbones are adjustable for a wider range of camber adjustability (same part as GT3 RSR). The rear diagonal brace is made of lightweight aluminium. The ones of GT2 and GT3 RS are steel (weight saving 1,4 kgs). The rear tyres are custom tailored for the GT2 RS and therefore have a very different spec than the ones used on GT3 RS and GT2 (same size but not interchangable!). So Porsche developed a complete new rear tyre for just 500 cars.

    The hydraulic system of the dampers is different on the GT2 RS in comparison to the GT2 and GT3 RS (valving hardware). Damper settings compression/rebound is way different too. All systems (Traction control, Stability control and PASM) were done from scratch on the GT2 RS and were calibrated to the significantly higher levels of torque and power.

    The Nürburgring time of 7:18 was achieved on a 100% stock car with stock tyres, exactly set up as the car customers get (even the toe-in and camber values!). It was driven by a Porsche test driver and no race professional. Maybe Walter would have been a little bit faster still, but he was at the Turbo S presentation at the time we had to do the hot laps with the finished GT2 RS....."

    There is a very detailed post over on RennList for those wanting to learn more about the car: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/615348-gt2rs-delivery-pics.html

     

    IMG_0342a.jpgP2060152.JPG


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Thanks for the response Savvy very interesting. I dont track my cars any more and the city roads in Scotland are terrible so the more flexible set up of the 3RS  will work well for me I think. 2RS looks great in red ! My friend had a white one. I have had 7 911 turbos and turbo S of a variety of version 993 , 996 and 997 and always loved the turbo feel. Most of mine were tweeaked to 550 bhp or above. I must admit though that the normally aspirated engine in the 3RS is about the best I have ever driven and loved it. Lucky guy having both 2 + 3 .

    cheers


    --
    997 TT Ferrari 430 Scuderia Range Rover Supercharged Bentley GT Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder

    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    savvy:

    The GT2RS is designed for the track, to say otherwise is simply "misinformed" .

     

     >95% of professional race drivers will prefer a GT3RS Ltd. Edition or even regular GT3RS for track use - given this group's general preference for N/A engines vs. turbo machines. Anyhow, I understand why you still like the GT2RS for the track - I also prefer this car to the weaker but more linear N/A GT models Smiley


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Ferdie:

    Today´s SportAuto just mentioned in an engine thread that the RS version with 4.0 litre displacement is planned for this summer Engine output supposed to be 500 hp. Its launch should be fairly certain then...


    Do you believe the 4.0 liter will deliver 500 HP? If the RSR delivers only 450, it seems unrealistic to me...

    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Mikla:
    Ferdie:

    Today´s SportAuto just mentioned in an engine thread that the RS version with 4.0 litre displacement is planned for this summer Engine output supposed to be 500 hp. Its launch should be fairly certain then...

    Do you believe the 4.0 liter will deliver 500 HP? If the RSR delivers only 450, it seems unrealistic to me...


    The RSR uses a mandatory airrestrictor, it would be beyond 500 hp without it. Smiley


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Savvy,

    Thanks for the great write-up. May I ask you an engine oil question; do you know what the factory filling on the GT3RS is: Mobile 1 SAE 0W-40 or the Mobile 1 SAE 5W-40?

    Which one do you use? The manual lists both, the latter for temperatures above -25 C.

    How soon after delivery should I do the first oil change?

    Thanks.

     


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    ***** 2007 Porsche 911 GT3 RSR 3.8-litre with 485bhp *****

    2007 Porsche 911 GT3 RSR to Debut at 24 Hours of Spa in Belgium

    2007 Porsche 911 GT3 RSR 485bhp race car...

    Stuttgart. Premiere in Spa: The Manthey Racing team from Germany runs two brand new Porsche 911 GT3 RSR vehicles on 29 July in the 24 hour race on the Belgian circuit. Porsche developed the near-standard racing sportscar based on the road-going 911 GT3 RS and put it in the hands of the experienced team under the direction of team principal Olaf Manthey. Works drivers Timo Bernhard and Marc Lieb (both Germany) share driving duties with Pedro Lamy from Portugal in the GT3 RSR with starting number 111. Driving the Porsche with starting number 197 are factory pilots Lucas Luhr (Monaco), Sascha Maassen (Belgium) with Marcel Tiemann (Monaco).

    For Porsche and Manthey Racing the race is regarded as an important test under race conditions and at the same time serves as an assessment of the vehicle‘s present position. For 2006, this race is the only event that is currently planned. For Spa, the car is entered in the so-called Group 2 where vehicles from national championships (here Belcar) are eligible to compete. In 2007, the 911 GT3 RSR will be available for customer racing and aims to continue the success streak of its predecessors. Porsche customer teams claimed class wins in Spa every year since the GT3 first competed there in 2001 – with an overall victory in 2003.

    In the FIA GT Championship, the American Le Mans Series and the Le Man Series as well as at the endurance classics of Le Mans, Daytona, Sebring and the Nürburgring, the GT3 in its various versions secured many records and title wins.

    Built on the 911 GT3 RS, a particularly light and sporty derivative of the 911 GT3, the current GT3 RSR is designed to comply with the A.C.O (Automobile Club de l’Ouest), the FIA-GT and IMSA (International Motorsports Association) as well as VLN (Veedol Langstrecke Nürburgring) regulations. Porsche decided to build the new GT3 RSR after analysing the relevant A.C.O. and FIA regulations in a specification which allows a minimum weight of 1,225 kilograms (predecessor: 1,125 kgs) and permits the tyre width to be increased by two inches to now 14 inches. 35 kilograms of the required additional weight may be placed as ballast in the vehicle, resulting in a lower centre of gravity. 

    For the normally-aspirated Porsche engine this specification allows a capacity of 3.8-litres with two 30.3 millimetre air restrictors (predecessor: 3.6-litres, 29 mm diameter). The increase in displacement was achieved through the enlargement of the bore to 102.7 millimetres with the unchanged stroke of 76.4 mm. With the mandatory air restrictors, the unit delivers 359 kW/485 hp at 8,500 revs per minute. Maximum torque increased to 435 Nm. Top engine speed is reached at 9,000 rpm. Thanks to the increase in capacity and the corresponding reprogramming of the electronics the top performance as well as the response and driveability have further improved. The new positioning of the mid-front radiator and the use of side radiators - taken from the high performance Carrera GT sportscar – contribute to the thermal health of the engine.

    For the 24 hour race in Spa, the GT3 RSR features the proven sequential six-speed gearbox of its forerunner. The customer vehicles for 2007 will be delivered with a new sequential six-speed transmission featuring the gears of the RS Spyder which competes in the American Le Mans Series.

    The bodyshell of the GT3 RSR with the welded-in safety cage is ten percent stiffer than its predecessor. Distinctive wheel arches widen the body by 50 millimetres on each side. The track is enlarged correspondingly; wheels and tyres of the maximum allowable dimension can be fitted.

    The relocation of the supplementary oil tank (option), the power steering and the battery to the front improve the weight distribution. The front and rear lids, the front mudguards, the wider rear, the doors as well as the front and rear panelling and wing consist of carbon-fibre composite material. The rear and side windows are manufactured from light polycarbonate.

    The newly-developed aerodynamic package improves the aerodynamic efficiency compared to the forerunner (type 996 GT3 RSR) by a total of around seven percent. Airflow to and from the radiators, the brakes and the engine were further optimised. In compliance with the FIA and A.C.O. regulations the new GT3 RSR features a flat underbody.

    The suspension with Porsche-optimised struts at the front and the Porsche multi-link axle at the rear corresponds to the configuration of the standard car. The modified kinematics is set-up for the wider tyre footprint and for the lowest possible camber change in rebound and compression. The new ZF-Sachs shock absorbers feature the Through-Rod-System with considerably lower chamber pressure and hence less friction than conventional dampers.  As a result they offer a significantly improved response characteristic. The position of the rear axle was optimised. The axle features a new anti-rollbar, an adjustable upper link and an optimised lower link.

    The brake system features six-piston aluminium callipers and 35 millimetre thick brake discs measuring 380 mm in diameter at the front and 30 millimetre four-piston aluminium callipers with 355 mm diameter discs at the rear.

    Over the 2006/07 winter, 35 units of the new racing sportscar will initially be built.

    Technical description: Porsche 911 GT3 RSR (basis 911 GT3 RS, 2006)

    Concept

    Single-seater, near-standard racing sportscar
    Basis: 911 GT3 RS
    Homologation: Spa 24 Hours Group 2 (national championship), respectively spring 2007 (A.C.O., IMSA, FIA GT)
    Suitable for competition in international GT events

    Bodywork

    Coupé, monocoque structure
    Basis 911 GT3 RS

    Lightweight, all-steel bodyshell hot-galvanised on both sides
    Front apron, rear bumper and sideskirts made of carbon-fibre, aerodynamically optimised
    Rear-lid, panelling and doors made of carbon-fibre
    Extended wheel arches made of carbon-fibre
    Side and rear windows made of plastic
    Adjustable rear wing made of carbon-fibre
    Flat underbody complying with A.C.O. and FIA regulations
    Welded-in safety cage (30 metres of seamless steel tubing)
    Racing bucket seat with fire retardant upholstery
    Six-point seat harness, HANS compatible
    Electric fire extinguishing system
    Air-jack system

    Aerodynamics

    Adjustable through rear wing and ride height

    Engine

    Six-cylinder, water-cooled boxer engine, aluminium engine block and cylinder heads, four valves per cylinder, oil cooler with water-oil heat-exchanger, variable valve timing (VarioCam), hydraulic valve-play compensation, intake system with two restrictors each 30.3 mm for A.C.O. 1,225 kg-version, single-throttle butterfly valve, dry-sump lubrication with separate oil tank, oil and cooling water refilling system, exhaust gas treatment: two Metalits with PE Design™, stereo lambda sensor-control, electronic engine management system MS 4.0, six coil electronic ignition, sequential multi-point injection

    • Bore    102.7 mm
    • Stroke   76.4 mm
    • Displacement  3,795 cc
    • Compression  ca. 14.5:1
    • Max. power  357 kW (485 hp) at 8,500 rpm
    • Max. torque  435 Nm at 7,250 rpm
    • Power output  99.2 kW per litre
    • Max. revs   9,000 rpm
    • Fuel type  RON 98 to RON 102

    Exhaust system in the basis version following A.C.O.-spec: Tubular headers with muffler system (113 dB pass-by)

    Alternative exhaust systems available:

    1. Tubular headers following FIA regulations (110 dB standing noise)
    2. Tubular headers with open exhaust
    3. Tubular headers with exhaust incl. catalytic converters homologated for DMSB and Spa 24 Hours Belcar category

    Electrical System

    12 Volt
    Motec display with data recording
    Battery capacity 45 A-h
    Alternator 140 A-h

    Optional:

    Bosch Memory Card
    Traction control

    Power Train

    Transmission via dual constant velocity joint driveshafts on the rear axle
    Manual sequential six-speed dog type transmission, “inline“ shift mechanism
    Sensor controlled ignition interruption
    Oil-water heat-exchanger
    Single-mass flywheel with triple-disc fibre race clutch
    Clutch diameter 4.5 inches (114.3 mm)
    Limited slip differential 40/60 percent (or alternative)

    Suspension

    Front axle: Strut type suspension (optimised by Porsche) with unibal joints and corresponding modifications of kinematics, independent wheel suspension on transverse control arms, longitudinal arms and spring struts, double coil springs (master and auxiliary) adjustable in different positions, ZF-Sachs gas pressure dampers (Through Rod System), separated track control arms, adjustable front blade-type roll bar, wheel mounts with double damper clamps, electrically-powered power steering

    Rear axle: Multilink rear suspension with unibal joints and corresponding modifications of kinematics, independent wheel suspension (five arms), rigid suspended subframe, double coil springs (master and auxiliary) adjustable in different positions, ZF-Sachs gas pressure dampers (Through Rod System), separated track control arms, rear axle tie rod strengthened and continuously adjustable, adjustable blade-type roll bar

    Adjustable geometry suspension (height, camber, track)

    Brakes

    Two-circuit brake system with front/rear circuit separation and brake-power distribution by bias bar system, no ABS, six aluminium monoblock callipers at the front, four-piston aluminium monoblock callipers at the rear, cross-drilled, internally vented brake discs measuring 380 x 35 mm diameter/width at the front and 355 x 32 mm diameter/width at the rear

    Rims/Wheels

    Front axle: 11J with Michelin slicks 27/65-18
    Rear axle: 13 J with Michelin slicks 31/71-18

    Weight

    1,225 kg following A.C.O and FIA GT regulations
    Power-to-weight ratio: 3.3 kg/kW (2.5 kg/hp)

    Measurements

    Length   4,439 mm +/- 5 mm
    Width   1,957 mm +/- 5 mm
    Height   maximum 1,250 mm
    Wheel base  2,373 mm

    Track width

    Front   1,565 mm (3.5 degree camber)
    Rear   1,620 mm (3.0 degree camber)

    Tank capacity  100-litre safety fuel cell with quick refuelling system

    Quantity for 2007: 35

    Source: Porsche press release (25 July 2006)

    2007-Porsche-911-GT3-RSR.jpg

    ...so the 911 GT3 RSR was producing 485bhp from 3.8-litres in 2006/07 with an air restrictor!

    Smiley SmileySmiley 


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

     A friend got a 2008 911 GT3 RSR that Manthey removed the air restrictor, and that car now got 580 bhp... 


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

     Congrats Savvy 


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Thanks for the great info! Let's wait and see how much Porsche "unlocks" from the 4.0 liter monster 


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    If you track your car regulalry I am sure the extra power will come in handy but for the road (certainly the ones I drive) a standard RS is more than enough. I have had a number of upgraded turbos up to 610Bhp and without access to autobahn (where it may well come in very handty to keep up with all the upgraded audis and bmw's ) there is very little opportunity to use the extra power and I wouldnt swap it for less accuracy in the handling or feel for sure. IMHO of course as i no longer do track work.

     

    RSR looks great

     

    great forum by the way real enthusaists.

     

    cheers


    --
    997 TT Ferrari 430 Scuderia Range Rover Supercharged Bentley GT Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder

    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

     510 PS.  Same body as GT2RS.


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Hi Savvy,  I remember you had said about the Diff not lasting and the brake pads not wearing evenly etc ... was there a response about that from A.P? 


    --

     

     


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Jay:

    Hi Savvy,  I remember you had said about the Diff not lasting and the brake pads not wearing evenly etc ... was there a response about that from A.P? 

    Hi Jay, we talked about this and they are open-minded to my comments. Proper cool down on PCCB is very important and he advised not to use the P50 Green pads with PCCB as they can accelerate rotor wear.

    My opinion remains that the calipers are simply flexing under tracking load conditions and that allows the pads to begin wearing unevenly. Also in my personal experience if one side or the other of the rotor is hotter than the other, then that will affect pad wear.

    He did advise the brake ducting on GT3 cars is good for a 50 degree temp reduction.

    I have a personal experiment in progress with a different braking system which I just installed on my Boxster Spyder. Details here: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/987-forum/618079-spyder-bitten-when-does-obsession-become-insanity.html

    The MovIt calipers are super-beefy and they advise pads will not wear on a bevel. I will update the thread with my experiences.

    As far as LSD, well they believe the differential is durable, but the trackers argue it doesn't work well if at all. Hopefully the direct feedback will result in a review of the LSD internals.


    Re: GT2RS Suspension: Did Preuninger Lie?

    Did they address the aluminum press fitting for the engine coolant hose? Seems like that should be their top priority. Smiley


     
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