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    Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/michael-stoschek-150-000-euro-fuer-klebekennzeichen-a-1064547.html

    The german entrepreneur Stoschek tape a handmade non off. licenseplate on his Porsche. First he get a € 1.65 Mio. fine due his wealth after court it was reduce. Now he had to pay € 150.000,--.


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    Being polite is so rare these days that it's often confused with flirting.

     


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    The whole story got very popular here in Germany. It is insane. A clear judgment based on the personal wealth of Mr. Stoschek. Just because he is an Billionaire they try to set a sign. Germany left long time ago the road of being a democracy we are in the middle of socialism where the poor and average are getting most out of.  Current refugee developments are underlining and proofing once again.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    Lars997:

    The whole story got very popular here in Germany. It is insane. A clear judgment based on the personal wealth of Mr. Stoschek. Just because he is an Billionaire they try to set a sign. Germany left long time ago the road of being a democracy we are in the middle of socialism where the poor and average are getting most out of.  Current refugee developments are underlining and proofing once again.

    I couldn't agree more.  Merkel should be aware of one thing: If the left and far left opposition agrees with her, she is doing something wrong, something very wrong. Not sure what is going on with her but she might make it into German history as the most leftist conservative chancellor ever. Smiley 

    Not that her Bavarian "counterpart" Seehofer is much better, he was the one who actually "destroyed" a well oiled and exceptionally good working health system in Germany during his period as minister for health. He is what we call a "Schwätzer" in Germany, he doesn't do much but he talks a lot to divert from real issues and he destroys his political opponents (in his own party) without any mercy.

    Germany has moved to a path of political and economical self-destruction and since the right wing party AfD has gained a lot, mostly votes from conservative parties, the next chancellor will very likely be one formed by a coalition of all the leftist parties. Very sad situation I'm afraid, another reason to move away.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    RC:
    Lars997:

    The whole story got very popular here in Germany. It is insane. A clear judgment based on the personal wealth of Mr. Stoschek. Just because he is an Billionaire they try to set a sign. Germany left long time ago the road of being a democracy we are in the middle of socialism where the poor and average are getting most out of.  Current refugee developments are underlining and proofing once again.

    I couldn't agree more.  Merkel should be aware of one thing: If the left and far left opposition agrees with her, she is doing something wrong, something very wrong. Not sure what is going on with her but she might make it into German history as the most leftist conservative chancellor ever. Smiley 

    Not that her Bavarian "counterpart" Seehofer is much better, he was the one who actually "destroyed" a well oiled and exceptionally good working health system in Germany during his period as minister for health. He is what we call a "Schwätzer" in Germany, he doesn't do much but he talks a lot to divert from real issues and he destroys his political opponents (in his own party) without any mercy.

    Germany has moved to a path of political and economical self-destruction and since the right wing party AfD has gained a lot, mostly votes from conservative parties, the next chancellor will very likely be one formed by a coalition of all the leftist parties. Very sad situation I'm afraid, another reason to move away.

    And I couldn't agree more to what you are saying. It is super sad that the ones taking risks and working extra hours are the ones being de-encouraged again and again. Same here - it is time to move away. Never felt stronger about this than today!


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    And you think I'm silly to look forward to living in Andorra without taxes and big government.  Besides I love to ski. 

    Socialism is taking the fun out of life and there is no incentive to excel. 


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    Leawood911:

    And you think I'm silly to look forward to living in Andorra without taxes and big government.  Besides I love to ski. 

    I guess I'd prefer to pay taxes and live in Florida. Smiley

    Socialism is taking the fun out of life and there is no incentive to excel. 

    True.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    Leawood911:

    And you think I'm silly to look forward to living in Andorra without taxes and big government.  Besides I love to ski. 

    Socialism is taking the fun out of life and there is no incentive to excel. 

    Smiley


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    RC:
    Leawood911:

    And you think I'm silly to look forward to living in Andorra without taxes and big government.  Besides I love to ski. 

    I guess I'd prefer to pay taxes and live in Florida. Smiley

    SmileySmileySmileySmiley Same here!


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    I would prefer Monaco for sleeping and France for living.


    --

    Being polite is so rare these days that it's often confused with flirting.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    sounds like complete madness ..


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    The article is in German so I don't know the circumstances of the fine. I can only assume German law allows judges to assess fines based on wealth. As a billionaire he must have known about the law. For him to flagrantly violate the law is incomprehensible and he deserved what he got.

    Let's not forget your representatives passed the law so you have nothing to complain about. It isn't any different than a progressive income tax law.


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    No wonder everyones wants to come to the USA angry


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    Note to self: If becoming a billionaire in Europe, register everything in my broke friend's name and just use the stuff.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    +1

    When I read the story in another magazine I think (I am no lawyer) that his biggest mistake was not only to reprint the licence plate (characters & numbers) but also the official seal which is forgery of an official document by law and a criminal act in Germany.

    So he was condemned for 55 daily rates (normal sentence for forgery of an offical document) which depends in Germany on your tax income (criminal act). Daily rate is about your daily income. Well, his daily income is about 30.000€-

    If you commit a criminal act and you are not condemned to go to prison this is (and was) the way how your fine is calculated in Germany. (Different procedure than an administrative offence)

    Without the official seal it probably it would be an administrative offence (driving without a valid plate)

    Bad luck or stupid, but no political judgement

    And yes, our Bavarian prime minister is a fool. Unfortunately his successor Söder will be even worse


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    What nobody has mentioned is the fact that the guy had already been told in 2013 that his "home-made" number plate was not legal and had then fitted the legit plate which he had in the trunk to the car before being allowed to carry on driving.  

    The initial earnings-related fine of €1.65million was obviously intended as a signal to him that he is not above the law, because he had disregarded earlier warnings from the police and had again substituted a decal for the official plate. He apparently also has a history of flouting the law in other regards. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    fritz:

    What nobody has mentioned is the fact that the guy had already been told in 2013 that his "home-made" number plate was not legal and had then fitted the legit plate which he had in the trunk to the car before being allowed to carry on driving.  

    The initial earnings-related fine of €1.65million was obviously intended as a signal to him that he is not above the law, because he had disregarded earlier warnings from the police and had again substituted a decal for the official plate. He apparently also has a history of flouting the law in other regards. 

    I assumed that the authorities would not have been capricious in assessing the large fine. Reading the additional facts justifies the fine. The rich need to understand that money doesn't give them the right to ignore the laws.


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    I don't see any problem with progressive fines. If anything, it seems a very natural, and just, system for a democracy, where everyone is to be treated equally under the law. The whole point of fines being to deter and punish certain behaviors, the punishment should be of equal severity -- i.e., equal pain -- regardless of wealth and income, otherwise, as pointed out, the entire system degenerates into a farce where breaking the law only requires an insignificant, token payment for some, whereas, for others, it's a painful burden. Or, in other words, for some a deterrence and for others a minor accounting annoyance.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    Just what sort of evil did his stupid  license plate cause?  Not much. The fine should match the gravity of the offense, not the gravity of the offenders checkbook. Justice should be blind, not a social weapon to please crowds.

    As for Merkel,has she explained to the neo Nazis in germany  how the refugee Muslim Syrians probably hate Jews more then they do? Or is she waiting for them to figure it out on their own? 


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    apias:

    I don't see any problem with progressive fines. If anything, it seems a very natural, and just, system for a democracy, where everyone is to be treated equally under the law. The whole point of fines being to deter and punish certain behaviors, the punishment should be of equal severity -- i.e., equal pain -- regardless of wealth and income, otherwise, as pointed out, the entire system degenerates into a farce where breaking the law only requires an insignificant, token payment for some, whereas, for others, it's a painful burden. Or, in other words, for some a deterrence and for others a minor accounting annoyance.

    Traffic fines are not to deter, they are merely to punish. That's why most places have some sort of points system. Give him a normal fine and suspend his license.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    noone1:
    apias:

    I don't see any problem with progressive fines. If anything, it seems a very natural, and just, system for a democracy, where everyone is to be treated equally under the law. The whole point of fines being to deter and punish certain behaviors, the punishment should be of equal severity -- i.e., equal pain -- regardless of wealth and income, otherwise, as pointed out, the entire system degenerates into a farce where breaking the law only requires an insignificant, token payment for some, whereas, for others, it's a painful burden. Or, in other words, for some a deterrence and for others a minor accounting annoyance.

    Traffic fines are not to deter, they are merely to punish. That's why most places have some sort of points system. Give him a normal fine and suspend his license.

    As Itsme added in his post above, the fake licence plate was just the start of the issue. German number plates bear an official decal which is applied by the car licencing authority responsible for issuing registration numbers. Because the authority concerned would have refused to put this decal onto his plastic film number plate he obviously forged a copy of the one which would have been applied to his original metal plate and then put it on himself.

    The offence is then the falsification of an official document, not just a minor traffic offence like driving around without a front number plate. 

    If he had been caught doing something like this at a younger age it could have ruined his career, so you could say that he got off lightly.  (He had been the CEO of a large automotive parts supplier). 

    It helps to know more than the bare minimum of facts and to understand the context. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    JimFlat6:

    ... The fine should match the gravity of the offense, not the gravity of the offenders checkbook. ...

    It should match both, otherwise, the law has no teeth if the fine is utterly insignificant to the offender.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    noone1:
     

    Traffic fines are not to deter, they are merely to punish. That's why most places have some sort of points system. Give him a normal fine and suspend his license.

    Unfortunately, in many places, they are used mainly as a source of revenue...

    But, clearly, the point is to deter, which is the purpose of the punishment. And, as pointed out, this wasn't a simple traffic offense, it was a criminal act.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    apias:
    JimFlat6:

    ... The fine should match the gravity of the offense, not the gravity of the offenders checkbook. ...

    It should match both, otherwise, the law has no teeth if the fine is utterly insignificant to the offender.

    No. With your model zero income, zero fine, big income, whatever some judge decides. 

    If justice is not blind you will not have justice, you will have some animals more equal than others by virtue of their lack of financial means. Ridiculous social model doomed to implode.

    A indignant shoplifter could get 30 days in jail for a minor theft, the klepto wife of a Beverley hills surgeon could get 5 years for the same stolen 5 dollar salami. That is your wealth penalty model theorem and that's why it is not used anywhere in countries with English common law traditions.  All people make mistakes , to penalize them unequally is not equal justice but just listening to a howling, jealous mob.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    JimFlat6:
     

    No. With your model zero income, zero fine, big income, whatever some judge decides. 

    If justice is not blind you will not have justice, you will have some animals more equal than others by virtue of their lack of financial means. Ridiculous social model doomed to implode.

    A indignant shoplifter could get 30 days in jail for a minor theft, the klepto wife of a Beverley hills surgeon could get 5 years for the same stolen 5 dollar salami. That is your wealth penalty model theorem and that's why it is not used anywhere in countries with English common law traditions.  All people make mistakes , to penalize them unequally is not equal justice but just listening to a howling, jealous mob.

    As usual, Jim, your interpretation is absurd, and your critique assumes things not stated. Who said anything about a judge deciding? Who said anything about jail time? Clearly, jail time is equally painful in equal amounts, but no one said anything about jail time.

    We're talking only about fines and making them "progressive" to have the same pain inflicted on all offenders. Let's call it a Flat Fine. The same percentage for everyone. It's just like a Flat Tax, so you should love it. Everyone does get punished equally, not like now where they are "punished" unequally, and the "punishment" is no punishment at all for some and a major blow to others.

    It's got nothing to do with jealousy (and certainly nothing to do with howling mobs) and everything to do with making the punishment equivalent in the degree of pain inflicted on the individual. No one is more or less equal, and everyone suffers equivalent consequences. This is how punishment ought to work in a democracy, not in a manner where for some breaking the law has no significant consequences.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    apias:
    JimFlat6:
     

    No. With your model zero income, zero fine, big income, whatever some judge decides. 

    If justice is not blind you will not have justice, you will have some animals more equal than others by virtue of their lack of financial means. Ridiculous social model doomed to implode.

    A indignant shoplifter could get 30 days in jail for a minor theft, the klepto wife of a Beverley hills surgeon could get 5 years for the same stolen 5 dollar salami. That is your wealth penalty model theorem and that's why it is not used anywhere in countries with English common law traditions.  All people make mistakes , to penalize them unequally is not equal justice but just listening to a howling, jealous mob.

    As usual, Jim, your interpretation is absurd, and your critique assumes things not stated. Who said anything about a judge deciding? Who said anything about jail time? Clearly, jail time is equally painful in equal amounts, but no one said anything about jail time.

    We're talking only about fines and making them "progressive" to have the same pain inflicted on all offenders. Let's call it a Flat Fine. The same percentage for everyone. It's just like a Flat Tax, so you should love it. Everyone does get punished equally, not like now where they are "punished" unequally, and the "punishment" is no punishment at all for some and a major blow to others.

    It's got nothing to do with jealousy (and certainly nothing to do with howling mobs) and everything to do with making the punishment equivalent in the degree of pain inflicted on the individual. No one is more or less equal, and everyone suffers equivalent consequences. This is how punishment ought to work in a democracy, not in a manner where for some breaking the law has no significant consequences.

     

    Progressive fines is not 'equal'.

    Equal means a flat rate fine for EVERYONE, that's called equal.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    See, even Whoopsy agrees that a Flat Fine would be fair.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    Apias sorry you don't agree. Progressive, percentage of net worth fines and penalties, whatever, are just fantasy constructs that would never be legal in the USA. Might be legal in socialist paradise states . But not ever here, .so dream on. For starters it would violate the 14th amendment regarding equal protection under the law and also the 8th , so good luck.


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    apias:

    See, even Whoopsy agrees that a Flat Fine would be fair.

     

    Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

    Flat fine means a set dollar amount for offences for EVERYONE, that's called EQUAL. 

    Flat "%" fine is not fair at all. Why would anyone like progressive stuff? Say Joe Smith down the road can buy a Porsche 911 C2 for 100k while I with a net worth 10x of his will need to pay a million for the same car? Really? You think that's 'fair'?

     


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    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

     
    Whoopsy:
    apias:

    See, even Whoopsy agrees that a Flat Fine would be fair.

     

    Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

    Flat fine means a set dollar amount for offences for EVERYONE, that's called EQUAL. 

    Flat "%" fine is not fair at all. Why would anyone like progressive stuff? Say Joe Smith down the road can buy a Porsche 911 C2 for 100k while I with a net worth 10x of his will need to pay a million for the same car? Really? You think that's 'fair'?

     

    Also prison sentences should be progressive depending on how young you are and how many years you hay to live, if you are say 80, murder should get you a year or two tops, if you are 18 years old or shod be 50 years. .. yep that sounds fair! 

    some of theses twisted logic socialist ideas never seize to amuse me, and their self entitlement to the money that others  have earned through your effort than others. Any excuse is a good excuse spend other people's money.


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: Homemade licenseplate € 150.000,-- fine

    fritz:
    noone1:
    apias:

    I don't see any problem with progressive fines. If anything, it seems a very natural, and just, system for a democracy, where everyone is to be treated equally under the law. The whole point of fines being to deter and punish certain behaviors, the punishment should be of equal severity -- i.e., equal pain -- regardless of wealth and income, otherwise, as pointed out, the entire system degenerates into a farce where breaking the law only requires an insignificant, token payment for some, whereas, for others, it's a painful burden. Or, in other words, for some a deterrence and for others a minor accounting annoyance.

    Traffic fines are not to deter, they are merely to punish. That's why most places have some sort of points system. Give him a normal fine and suspend his license.

    As Itsme added in his post above, the fake licence plate was just the start of the issue. German number plates bear an official decal which is applied by the car licencing authority responsible for issuing registration numbers. Because the authority concerned would have refused to put this decal onto his plastic film number plate he obviously forged a copy of the one which would have been applied to his original metal plate and then put it on himself.

    The offence is then the falsification of an official document, not just a minor traffic offence like driving around without a front number plate. 

    If he had been caught doing something like this at a younger age it could have ruined his career, so you could say that he got off lightly.  (He had been the CEO of a large automotive parts supplier). 

    It helps to know more than the bare minimum of facts and to understand the context. 

    Still, there is no justification for this fine, none at all. 

    However, this is how German law works (and sometimes in other regions not much differently).

    Another example: Well known German soccer player Rummenigge had to pay a fine of 249000 EUR for "smuggling" two  used Rolex watches through Munich airport. Apparently he wasn't able to explain where the used watches were coming from, he is a well known watch collector and he then claimed that he got them as a gift from someone outside the EU. Not only had he to pay 19% VAT and customs but on top, the 249000 EUR fine. The total value of the watches was 100000 EUR. So around 300000 EUR, three times the value of the watches in fines and customs fees. He also has a prior now.

    The fun part is: If you get stopped at a German airport with an expensive piece of jewelry and you cannot explain where it comes from, you (not customs) have to prove that you bought it within Germany (or the EU) and if you can't (let's say the jeweler is broke and doesn't exist anymore and you have no receipts anymore), you're going to court and will pay for it, incl. the prior I mentioned because this is considered tax evasion. Good luck. This can happen to anyone traveling to Germany or inside the EU with expensive watches or jewelry, don't think this can happen to Germans only. If you get in trouble with a customs officer, he can put you in a lot of sh.t.

    I get it, people need to be punished (if not for breaking the law, for being stupid Smiley Smiley) but three times the value of the watches and a prior? This is just ridiculous. 

    If you kill someone in Germany, you probably get away with a limited sentence and no fine at all if you have a good lawyer. Smiley In Germany, sometimes tax evaders get more prison time than killers (manslaughter), which in my opinion is insane as well. Three years for manslaughter but five years for tax evasion? Something is very wrong.

    If a democracy wants to survive, people need to understand the laws and the punishments. If they don't, we have a problem. 

    Btw: Aren't we always told that all people are equal? So why different fines? Smiley Something is wrong, very wrong.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


     
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