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    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    wantone:
     

    I think you are missing the point (again).

    Do I? What car do you drive again? Sorry if I forgot. Smiley

    991 Turbo S is the high end model of a lower category series of cars that starts with the Boxster. You will obviously find less value at the high end since the car is loaded with options that have extremely high margins. 488 is the entry level supercar (of a more expensive and limited production platform) and therefore if made right it offers more value for your money.

    The 911 starts with the Boxster? Did you have a bit too much Ouzo lately? Smiley A Boxster (981) and a 991 Turbo S share less than 20% of parts, so... I get what you want to say but I think you are wrong. Porsche doesn't offer something in the 200-250k EUR price range yet because there was and is no real rush to do that, especially since such a car could actually create in-house competition and hurt Lamborghini badly, unless it would be a GT2 (RS). Remember the 997 GT2 RS?! When Porsche put this car on the market, there weren't many cars around with that performance.
     

    The 488 is the successor of the 458. Basically, this series is Ferrari's 911 if you like. 

    I get your point with the lower margins, more expensive and limited production platform regarding Ferrari but I do not think that the 991 Turbo S is different, from a product placement point of view, than the 458 or even the 488. Also, I do not think that the 488 is an entry level supercar model, I would rather call it one of Ferrari's more traditional models.

    Ferrari doesn't offer cheaper models because it doesn't really make much sense. Even the California isn't exactly a bargain right now and looking at current Maserati prices (who is insane to pay these prices for a Maserati GT?), I doubt that the rumored Dino will be under 160k EUR. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    I remain confused about the price difference between a Turbo S and a 488. A Turbo S in the US costs around $185,000. 488 starts at $240,000. Can someone clear up this difference for me?


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    @Wonderbar Discussion is based on EU prices. In Germany 991 TTS is 197k Euros, and 488 GTB is few cents above 200K Euros.


    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Thanks Milanno...


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:

    @Wonderbar Discussion is based on EU prices. In Germany 991 TTS is 197k Euros, and 488 GTB is few cents above 200K Euros.

    Question: Why considerably more people in any market buy Porsche Turbo than Ferrari since price is not a determinant and Ferrari offer these warranty and maintenance packages that make ownership more affordable?

    Answers please Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    reginos:
     

    Question: Why considerably more people in any market buy Porsche Turbo than Ferrari since price is not a determinant and Ferrari offer these warranty and maintenance packages that make ownership more affordable?

    Because Ferrari wants you to lust after their cars (they limit their production) and they want to be rare on streets. They will torture you even more when you decide to visit their dealership. First, it will be pretty hard to get allocation, and if you finally get chance to spec your car you will wait very long time for your car because you are new customer.

    On other hand Porsche is mass-production company, so ordering 991 TTS is not so complicated and so painful Smiley Heck, even 918 Spyder was super easy to get if you had enough cash. 

    P.S. In past used Ferraris were known as nightmares because a lot of cars were serviced by unauthorized shops with low-quality parts. With 7-yr free maintenance package Ferrari changed game in their favor so today when you buy used Ferrari you know it was serviced well.
    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC:
     

     

    I do not know how Ferrari does it  and I do not know how high their profit margin is but the new 488 is really a benchmark in its class, a very impressive product.

    When I look at the new Huracan, the new R8 V10 Plus and the 488, I feel cheated by Porsche with the 991 Turbo S. I can't help it.

    Also, when I compare the new BMW X5M with the Cayenne Turbo S, I get the same feeling. 

     

     

    488 is NOT a benchmark. It is mostly equal to a 650S which McLaren launched a couple years ago. The 12C/650S is much more advanced with carbon tub, not aluminum space frame. If you want to talk about a benchmark from Ferrari, that would be the 458 Speciale, nothing equals it yet.

    I still don't quite see the 991 Turbo S as a direct competitor to the mid engine cars like R8 and 488. Pricing wise it has gotten up there with them, but in a few markets they are still cheaper. Practicality and discreet styling are still the Porsche's strong points. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Good post, Whoopsy...


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:
    RC:
     

     

    I do not know how Ferrari does it  and I do not know how high their profit margin is but the new 488 is really a benchmark in its class, a very impressive product.

    When I look at the new Huracan, the new R8 V10 Plus and the 488, I feel cheated by Porsche with the 991 Turbo S. I can't help it.

    Also, when I compare the new BMW X5M with the Cayenne Turbo S, I get the same feeling. 

     

     

    488 is NOT a benchmark. It is mostly equal to a 650S which McLaren launched a couple years ago. The 12C/650S is much more advanced with carbon tub, not aluminum space frame.

     

    ..and the turbo lag engine is also a benchmark of the 650S????  carbon tub sounds super hi tech but in reality there are not many advantages over an aluminium space frame.

    the 488 beats the 650S in every respect, looks, speed, handling and most importantly feeling. 

     

     

     

    If you want to talk about a benchmark from Ferrari, that would be the 458 Speciale, nothing equals it yet.

    I still don't quite see the 991 Turbo S as a direct competitor to the mid engine cars like R8 and 488. Pricing wise it has gotten up there with them, but in a few markets they are still cheaper. Practicality and discreet styling are still the Porsche's strong points. 

     

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    pmarkow:
     

    ..and the turbo lag engine is also a benchmark of the 650S????  carbon tub sounds super hi tech but in reality there are not many advantages over an aluminium space frame.

    the 488 beats the 650S in every respect, looks, speed, handling and most importantly feeling. 

     

    You know, honestly, I never felt the turbo lag in my 12C, never driven the 650 but it can't be that much different. The 997  Turbo and the Turbo S that I had before also does't really shows the turbo lagged if at all. 

    Looks, I will give you that, the 488, while one of the worst looking car, is still miles better than anything from McLaren, but handling and feel is a subjective thing, so an ace of spade for someone might be a 2 of diamond for someone else. Speed wise, McLaren has proven that their horses seems stronger than the Italian horses, just like how the Germany horses are always stronger than everything else. As for respect, yes Ferrari still wins, but McLaren seems to be catching up.

    I have had harsh words for McLaren before, but I think I am quite objective and call things as they are. I am not blindly drinking Ferrari's Kool Aid, if I did I probably had my LaFerrari allocation by now, I am also not drinking Porsche's either, you guys seen plenty of embarrassing posts from me on the Porsche 918. 

    As for the carbon tub, it is a GREAT safety feature, not long ago there was a post about someone from Germany crashing his McLaren at a great rate of speed, I firmly believe it was the carbon tub that saved him, anything else in metal he might not have survived. The strength of a carbon structure is not to be underestimated. A metal structure might have the same response rate on handling as a carbon tub, but on crash scenario, like a high sudden G loads, a carbon tub has no peers. It's a matter of physics on the elements involved. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    1438245026319image.jpg150 mph crash, driver survived:

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    That looks absolutely insane! But, like Whoopsy said CF tub is crucial in high speed crashes, which is obvious on this horrible photo. You can see that structure around driver is still in its original shape.


    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:
    reginos:
     

    Question: Why considerably more people in any market buy Porsche Turbo than Ferrari since price is not a determinant and Ferrari offer these warranty and maintenance packages that make ownership more affordable?

    Because Ferrari wants you to lust after their cars (they limit their production) and they want to be rare on streets. They will torture you even more when you decide to visit their dealership. First, it will be pretty hard to get allocation, and if you finally get chance to spec your car you will wait very long time for your car because you are new customer.

    On other hand Porsche is mass-production company, so ordering 991 TTS is not so complicated and so painful Smiley Heck, even 918 Spyder was super easy to get if you had enough cash. 

    P.S. In past used Ferraris were known as nightmares because a lot of cars were serviced by unauthorized shops with low-quality parts. With 7-yr free maintenance package Ferrari changed game in their favor so today when you buy used Ferrari you know it was serviced well.
    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     

    You wouldn't even contemplate then, that a Ferrari might not be everybody's choice or preference! 

    Porsche Turbo and Ferrari mid-engined (the small size)  had always been rivals appealing to a different clientele. Different tastes, personalities, driving purposes and usages. 

    Anyone who is dying for a normal Ferrari will find one somewhere in the world maybe at an affordable premium irrespective of the artificial excess demand created by Maranello. 


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    I answered you why there are considerably more people buying Porsche over Ferrari. Huge demand for Ferrari is not artificial, its very real. A lot of very wealthy people wanted LaF, but they COULDNT get one. Ask Whoopsy if you dont believe me that you just cant buy some cars from Ferrari if you are not old customer or huge collector. You dont have those "problems" with Porsche.


    --

     

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    You don't have that "problem" with Ferrari either here in Europe when buying normal production models. Ordering a 488 is no harder than a 991 Turbo over here.


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:

    I answered you why there are considerably more people buying Porsche over Ferrari. Huge demand for Ferrari is not artificial, its very real. A lot of very wealthy people wanted LaF, but they COULDNT get one. Ask Whoopsy if you dont believe me that you just cant buy some cars from Ferrari if you are not old customer or huge collector. You dont have those "problems" with Porsche.

    I see you point but I was referring to the normal Ferrari models, mostly the entry level mid-engined that compete with the Porsche Turbo models. Anyone could get his 458 from somewhere if this person was desperate to have one, in spite of what Ferrari say about limiting supply. I think the numbers Ferrari produce is the size of their potential market. They say that they have a self-imposed limit of 7.000 because if they produced more they would be unable to sell the whole production. Instead of saying that their demand is limited they maintain that the supply is kept within "exclusivity".

    But since you mentioned the special models, LaF was made in 499 units and the 918 Spyder in 918 units. In this case Ferrari created an artificial shortage for this model like in their previous special models. OTOH  Porsche were confident that they could sell almost twice as many which they successfully achieved and made more people happy. The price difference between the two is also negligible for this elevated price range


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Sorry guys, seems I am wrong smiley Ferrari is actually artificially desirable (they limit their production since they cant sell more than they produce now), while Porsche is actually most desirable. Now I finally understand why they introduced Cayenne, Panamera & Macan.


    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:

    Sorry guys, seems I am wrong smiley Ferrari is actually artificially desirable (they limit their production since they cant sell more than they produce now), while Porsche is actually most desirable. Now I finally understand why they introduced Cayenne, Panamera & Macan.

    Finally you grasped it Smiley

    We helped you see beyond the hype Smiley


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    reginos:
     

    We helped you see beyond the hype Smiley

    Now you need to help Whoopsy too, since he is buying more and more Ferrari`s lately Smiley Luckily, LaF was out of his reach, so 918 Spyder ended up in his garage Smiley


    --

     

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:
    reginos:
     

    We helped you see beyond the hype Smiley

    Now you need to help Whoopsy too, since he is buying more and more Ferrari`s lately Smiley Luckily, LaF was out of his reach, so 918 Spyder ended up in his garage Smiley


    -

    The exception that proves the rule.

    Actually the LaF wouldn't be instead of the 918 but in addition to the Porsche. You see he has a lot of  $pace in his garage Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Leawood911:

    I totally get that the mezger is ancient tech. That makes the fact that they race it and not the super reliable 991 engine even more strange which is why I asked the question. Btw stating that there are lots of 996 and 997 engines failing at the shop misses the fact that these are not mezger engines. They are the ones they will not take on the race track. Pitiful that Porsche themselves chose to race the old tech up until now. I wonder if we will see the next race engine in a road car?

    the fact is you can call it old tech or whatever. They more they bash it the more crow they eat when they can't seem to replace it on the track. Does anyone see this or am I the only one?

    I wanted to correct something I posted the other day.

     

    There are very strong rumors that we will not see any factory 911's in GTE next year. The word is that Porsche are preparing a car for 2017. Rumor has it that it will be mid-engine.


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Time for 960?


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Not clear yet, but yes some thing like that.

     

    If the rumor is true, don't expect to see road going version until 2018.


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    i can tell you why certain people still buy the turbo s over the 488. ferrari has the image of the filthy rich and the 911 is after all a volkswagen derivative. there is a certain social threshold to cross in some people's minds before they 'dare' to buy a ferrari even if the financial difference to the turbo s is - in some markets - totally negligible. also the quality control of ferrari in the past does not help to build up a positive reputation with non-experts. some people do not follow the developments closely and still think that ferraris are beautiful pieces of italian junk while they think of porsches as real german quality products. reality is of course different, modern ferraris are at least as reliable as modern porsches, actually my 458 had no issues for two years (except the broken front lifter after two weeks of ownership) and the same holds for the cars of some of my friends while my 911's all gave me serious headaches - in fact my 997.2 C4S was precisely the piece of junk previous ferraris (up to the 360) were.

    other than that i cannot think of any reason why anyone would prefer a non-GT 911 over the 488. 

    cheers peter


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:
    pmarkow:
     

    ..and the turbo lag engine is also a benchmark of the 650S????  carbon tub sounds super hi tech but in reality there are not many advantages over an aluminium space frame.

    the 488 beats the 650S in every respect, looks, speed, handling and most importantly feeling. 

     

    You know, honestly, I never felt the turbo lag in my 12C, never driven the 650 but it can't be that much different. The 997  Turbo and the Turbo S that I had before also does't really shows the turbo lagged if at all. 

    well, maybe the word 'turbo-lag' was imprecise, i should rather say that the 12C and the 650S feel - at least to me - somewhat artificially boosted. same thing for the turbo s.

    Looks, I will give you that, the 488, while one of the worst looking car, is still miles better than anything from McLaren, but handling and feel is a subjective thing, so an ace of spade for someone might be a 2 of diamond for someone else. Speed wise, McLaren has proven that their horses seems stronger than the Italian horses, just like how the Germany horses are always stronger than everything else. As for respect, yes Ferrari still wins, but McLaren seems to be catching up.

    I have had harsh words for McLaren before, but I think I am quite objective and call things as they are. I am not blindly drinking Ferrari's Kool Aid, if I did I probably had my LaFerrari allocation by now, I am also not drinking Porsche's either, you guys seen plenty of embarrassing posts from me on the Porsche 918. 

    As for the carbon tub, it is a GREAT safety feature, not long ago there was a post about someone from Germany crashing his McLaren at a great rate of speed, I firmly believe it was the carbon tub that saved him, anything else in metal he might not have survived. The strength of a carbon structure is not to be underestimated. A metal structure might have the same response rate on handling as a carbon tub, but on crash scenario, like a high sudden G loads, a carbon tub has no peers. It's a matter of physics on the elements involved. 

    possibly. but i have seen pics of a crashed and totally gone 458 with the alu space frame passenger cabin still ok and pics of a totalled F10 M5 (accident at 300km/h) where the passengers survived the crash. but i grant you, carbon might have an advantage here, particularly if you count in weight.

     

     

     


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    Milanno:

    @Wonderbar Discussion is based on EU prices. In Germany 991 TTS is 197k Euros, and 488 GTB is few cents above 200K Euros.

    Smiley Sorry about the confusion. Also, Ferrari cars are usually easier "available" in Europe. A friend gets his 488 Spider early next year and he didn't have to try too hard.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    JEANTET:

    Time for 960?

    In my book, Porsche lacks two essential models for the brand:
     

    1. Some sort of Panamera Coupe (but much more stylish and refined)

    2. A mid-engined R8, Huracan, 488 competitor

    I do not know if these cars make sense financially but this is what I would expect to see from Porsche.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    RC,
    Nowadays, the 911 top models are positioned as 488/huracan competitors.
    If they introduce the 960, wouldnt that degrade the 911 line-up, essentially pushing it into m3 territory or so? And then... where would they position the pany coupe? It would naturally also compete with the m3/m5?
    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    pmarkow:

    i can tell you why certain people still buy the turbo s over the 488. ferrari has the image of the filthy rich and the 911 is after all a volkswagen derivative. there is a certain social threshold to cross in some people's minds before they 'dare' to buy a ferrari even if the financial difference to the turbo s is - in some markets - totally negligible. also the quality control of ferrari in the past does not help to build up a positive reputation with non-experts. some people do not follow the developments closely and still think that ferraris are beautiful pieces of italian junk while they think of porsches as real german quality products. reality is of course different, modern ferraris are at least as reliable as modern porsches, actually my 458 had no issues for two years (except the broken front lifter after two weeks of ownership) and the same holds for the cars of some of my friends while my 911's all gave me serious headaches - in fact my 997.2 C4S was precisely the piece of junk previous ferraris (up to the 360) were.

    other than that i cannot think of any reason why anyone would prefer a non-GT 911 over the 488. 

    cheers peter

    True, Ferrari has an image problem as every dumb footballer and pimp has had one at some stage in his career SmileySmiley

    911 a VW derivative? Only if someone has been in a coma for the last 25 years.

    Generally speaking I trust German engineering as the more thorough than anything coming from Italy. Having said that, I agree that modern Ferrari are technically advanced and well made and that some German cars have had serious design/reliability issues. However, the average Porsche successfully covers 10 times the mileage of a Ferrari in any given time period, with plenty of abuse too.

    On the road and in the real world I don't think a Ferrari has anything more to offer compared to a top Porsche besides the extrovert styling (a plus and also a minus depending on the person's view) and satisfying the noise fetish of some owners whilst acoustically annoying the rest of the people.

    It is an omission in the Porsche range that they are not exactly represented in the 458/488 category. The Ferrari have had this class for their own since they practically play alone. The awaited Porsche 960 cannot come soon enough.

     

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991.2 and future models Thread Closed

    reginos:
    Milanno:
    reginos:
     

    We helped you see beyond the hype Smiley

    Now you need to help Whoopsy too, since he is buying more and more Ferrari`s lately Smiley Luckily, LaF was out of his reach, so 918 Spyder ended up in his garage Smiley


    -

    The exception that proves the rule.

    Actually the LaF wouldn't be instead of the 918 but in addition to the Porsche. You see he has a lot of  $pace in his garage Smiley

     

    Talking about any one I know? Smiley

    The RS is coming very soon and I will have 2 of each brand, no favourites haha.


    --

     

     


     
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