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    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    REALZEUS:

     F1 is a team sport. Alonso has a better chance of winning the title and was also quicker than Massa. Had he not been allowed to pass, he would have taken heat from Vettel. As a Ferrari fan, I am extremely happy for the result and hope for many more 1-2 triumphs! The order does not matter to me, as long as the Scuderia wins both titles. 

     

     

    Somewhat revealingly, Alonso added that the result in Germany was for the good of the team.

    "We try to put a show always for the spectators. As Felipe said, we work for companies, we work for teams, sometimes we saw this year crashes between team-mates Today Ferrari has 42 points in its pockets. That is what we are here for. What is important is the team result."

    Source: http://en.espnf1.com/germany/motorsport/story/24364.html

     

    It appears that you missed something, that team orders are banned. So whether or not it's good for team, this practice has been made illegal.

    If Ferrari want to play with their own rules, they might as well start their own championship.

    Moreover, Ferrari management think that the many million viewers are a bunch of idiots when in their defense they insisted that they merely "provided Massa with information".

    As for Massa's apology he was obviously bitter but he is just a pawn working for an organisation.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    +1 - perfectly stated Reginos!!!

    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Should have been $100,00 fine and reversed the result, Massa First Alonso Second...


    --

    http://www.phrog.co.uk


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    reginos:

    It appears that you missed something, that team orders are banned. So whether or not it's good for team, this practice has been made illegal.

    If Ferrari want to play with their own rules, they might as well start their own championship.

    Moreover, Ferrari management think that the many million viewers area bunch of idiots when in their defense they insisted that they merely "provided Massa with information".

    As for Massa's apology he was obviously bitter but he is just a pawn working for an organisation.

     

    Since there was no direct order, there was no breach of the regulations either. Technically, the Scuderia did nothing wrong, even though they clearly wanted Alonso through. That goes against the spirit of the rules, but then again this stupid rule is against the nature of Formula 1 itself. Would anyone prefer a Vettel-Webber type of incident instead? 

     

    Interresting read:  http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48927


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    I just came back from Hockenheim and, I may have had a limited view from the grand stand only, but it didn't appear to me that Alonso was faster than Massa. Though, obviously it would take just a blink of the eye to be slower at some point during the race...nevertheless, for me, the race was not very exciting as you could tell from the first 5 rounds, that if nobody makes a big mistake you have the order after the checkered flag...

    For me, anyway and what ever happened, it was an experience not to be missed.

    Perhaps, not to highjack this thread, but I watched quite a good Porsche Supercup race, where , for example, one driver more or less loosing the rear bumper, was asked in for a personal interview after ignoring the black / orange flag for three rounds...


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    REALZEUS:
    reginos:

    It appears that you missed something, that team orders are banned. So whether or not it's good for team, this practice has been made illegal.

    If Ferrari want to play with their own rules, they might as well start their own championship.

    Moreover, Ferrari management think that the many million viewers area bunch of idiots when in their defense they insisted that they merely "provided Massa with information".

    As for Massa's apology he was obviously bitter but he is just a pawn working for an organisation.

     

    Since there was no direct order, there was no breach of the regulations either. Technically, the Scuderia did nothing wrong, even though they clearly wanted Alonso through. That goes against the spirit of the rules, but then again this stupid rule is against the nature of Formula 1 itself. Would anyone prefer a Vettel-Webber type of incident instead? 

    Read this. It comes from Horner but it reflects the views of F1 fans who are not so partisan as you are.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85534

    The funny thing is that Smedley didn't bother to keep appearances and did it very crudely. "Good lad" and "sorry".

    Ferrari can allege anything as an excuse but we (the viewers) were not born yesterday. Anyway Ferrari will not appeal the stewards' decision. Why if they are so innocent?

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85562

    It's up to the WMSC to decide for further sanctions and this will be a test of Todt's integrity too.

    And in F1 I'm not anti-Ferrari at all Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    The best decision would be not only to fine Ferrari with EUR 100.000.-- (they do not really feel that as a pemalty) but same as 3 years ago, when FA was blocking LH in the qualifying in Budapest at the pits in order to make him unable to tale a second chance to get the pp, they should not get any points for the constructers championship!

    In that case this would be a clear statement from FIA that breaking the rules is realy punished...


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Feel very sorry for poor Massa, a year after he almost died, this was to be his race. He handled himself with a lot of class after the GP, as he did after Brazil 2008, while Alonso's ''I don't know what you're talking about'' attitide shows how little he cares for the opinions of the public and how arrogant he is. After his FIA manipulation / safety car paronoia of recent weeks he again shows what a class act he is.


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Reginos, I fully understand your position and it is not one without merits either! I just have a different opinion on the matter. One that says that Ferrari is racing as a team and has the right to ensure the best possible result for themselves, since they are not harming anyone else. 

    Hamilton overtook the safety car the other day - a black flag infringement - and the punishment he got was laughable; he didn't even lose one single position, while Ferrari was heavily penalised for obeying the rules. Why would they want to play by the book after that?


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    REALZEUS:

    Reginos, I fully understand your position and it is not one without merits either! I just have a different opinion on the matter. One that says that Ferrari is racing as a team and has the right to ensure the best possible result for themselves, since they are not harming anyone else. 

    Team work was the case in F1 for many years and many champions took titles because of this (Andretti, Scheckter et al)  Now teams have to abide to different rules.

    At least SF could have the foresight to prearrange things in some way or give orders in a coded manner. I know it's not correct to bypass the rules but at least they wouldn't get caught.

    Hamilton overtook the safety car the other day - a black flag infringement - and the punishment he got was laughable; he didn't even lose one single position, while Ferrari was heavily penalised for obeying the rules. Why would they want to play by the book after that?

     True LH is often treated very leniently but two wrongs don't do one right.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Lord_Driftalot:

    The best decision would be not only to fine Ferrari with EUR 100.000.-- (they do not really feel that as a pemalty) but same as 3 years ago, when FA was blocking LH in the qualifying in Budapest at the pits in order to make him unable to tale a second chance to get the pp, they should not get any points for the constructers championship!

    In that case this would be a clear statement from FIA that breaking the rules is realy punished...

     Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    It's sad that it was a boring race, even without being able to understand the speaker, it was clear that Alonso would never pass Massa without a team order.

    And in my opinion, after letting Alonso pass Massa was driving slower to keep Vettel at a distance.

    You can call Red Bull what you want, but they let their driver fight, even though it cost the dearly. If Ferrari gets through with this, what should Red Bull do?


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Eunice:
    If Ferrari gets through with this, what should Red Bull do?

    Don't you think RB has already treated Webber badly enough?


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    gangajas:
    Eunice:
    If Ferrari gets through with this, what should Red Bull do?

    Don't you think RB has already treated Webber badly enough?

    You mean the thing with the wing? I highly doubt it made a difference. Webber was always able to win against Vettel.


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Eunice:
    gangajas:
    Eunice:
    If Ferrari gets through with this, what should Red Bull do?

    Don't you think RB has already treated Webber badly enough?

    You mean the thing with the wing? I highly doubt it made a difference. Webber was always able to win against Vettel.

    If it wasn't going to make a difference, why did the do it?

    And when Vettel crashed into him in Turkey the team had told the Aussie to keep his revs low while at the same time telling Vettel to attack him....

     


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    gangajas:
    Eunice:
    gangajas:
    Eunice:
    If Ferrari gets through with this, what should Red Bull do?

    Don't you think RB has already treated Webber badly enough?

    You mean the thing with the wing? I highly doubt it made a difference. Webber was always able to win against Vettel.

    If it wasn't going to make a difference, why did the do it?

    And when Vettel crashed into him in Turkey the team had told the Aussie to keep his revs low while at the same time telling Vettel to attack him....

     

    If it WAS going to make a difference, why did Webber win in both cases? Maybe Webber was feeling better with the old wing? We'll never know.

    Look, I'm not trying to give Red Bull a free pass here, they certainly weren't 100% fair in both cases, but that is an entirely different ball-park to what Ferrari did in Hockenheim.

    Red-Bull might have the intention of rigging the game between its drivers, Ferrari actually did it.


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

     

    Until now, Ferrari weren’t so competitive and we had the chance to watch interesting battles in F1, but now we are back in the “dark ages” of crappy team games and orders…
    Alonso himself has to concentrate more on driving and eventually overtaking someone, instead of crying on the radio and asking for help from team, Federation, God and so on…
    Congratulations Scuderia Radio Ferrari!

    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    easy_rider911:
    Atzporsche:

    Can someone take beautiful pictures for us

     
    +1 Smiley Yes please!!


    Some firsthand pics from saturday free practice and qualification:

    Mr. Liuzzi in the wall:

    IMG_9013.jpg

    IMG_9014.jpg

     

    Michael trying hard

    IMG_9098.jpg

     

    Team Lotus/Trulli

    IMG_9172.jpg

     

    Full house

    IMG_9215.jpg

     

    IMG_9335.jpg

     

    Schumacher and Button

    IMG_9372.jpg

     

    IMG_9368.jpg

     

    Rosberg

    IMG_9358.jpg

     

    Vettel after the Pole

    IMG_9406.jpg

     

    After the qualification we found some Lotus merchandise and something special  behind the grandstand

    IMG_9412.jpg

     

    We had really fun watching F1 live again - the sound is just great.

    In 1988 I have been the first time in Hockenheim to see Ayrton Senna - the difference after all the years: After the first practice I bought some ear plugs for me and my son.Smiley

    I am getting old...Smiley

    Hope you enjoyed the pics - credits for them to my brother Christian.

    Blueflame Smiley


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    @blueflame: nice photos

    Andrew Benson's blog:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/07/team_orders_rule_ties_f1_in_kn.html


    --

     
    RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpg


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    easy_rider911:

    Andrew Benson's blog:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/07/team_orders_rule_ties_f1_in_kn.html


    I entirely agree with Benson. He nicely summed up the situation yesterday and made an appropriate comparison to the situation in Austria in 2002. Schumacher´s quotes actually lead me to a question what F1 racing is supposed to stand for. Do they really race for the spectators and the media or are these rather a way to back up the advertising turnovers these teams generate.

    Ferrari has only made the mistake to give an order that could (and did) generate consequences. Massa´s resistance towards Alonso´s overtaking attempts in the middle of the race was surprisingly tough, a simple warning not too overcook it would have had the same effect and would´ve still resulted in the desired finish.

    Very nice pictures, Blueflame! Smiley


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Well what a wk-end for me. Let me share thru pictures with you. I'll be putt some drivers, some cars, some team directors, some singing stars etc..

    But before that. How small coming from the Ferrari team to tell Massa to slow down so that Alonso could pass.

    Hope you will enjoy them.


    --

     CT, GT3, Cooper S


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    I never like to see slower cars holding up, and frequently preventing faster ones from placing well. We all know too well how difficult passing is in F1 - its greatest problem IMO. Unlike MotoGP, where close racing and frequent passing significantly adds to the spectacle. I know this is part of racing, but I still don't like to see it.

    Massa was slower and had several close calls with Alonso - he should have let him by rather than risk colliding. IMO, that kind of conduct isn't appropriate between teammates.

    However, I'm not in favor of letting someone by if he is SLOWER, just because he is ahead in points.  

    I would think a gentleman's agreement between team members would handle such situations - to let the faster man by. No need for team orders. Unfortunately, it looks like these guys are too vain for this to work. Therefore, the team sometimes needs to intervene.

    Will Alonso let Massa by some day - will be interesting to see.

    Obviously, none of the other teams will be happy, since Alonso is now back in the hunt.

    I'm not a big fan of Alonso, while I generally like Massa , however he has blocked Alonso one too many times. Not a good team player IMO. If he hadn't let Alonso by so quickly (obviously), none of this (fine) would have occurred. It also took away from Ferrari's dominance/performance in the race, regardless of who finished first.

    Ferrari should doc the fine from his salary and not renew his contract. IMO he shot himself in the foot. He is now finished at Ferrari. And unless he can show improvement, no other team will sign him.

     

     


    --

    997TT Blk/Blk,  BMW K1300GT


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    +1     Smiley


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    After more than 10years I visited the formula 1 again. One word: unbelievable!

    the noise - unbelievable! I had to protect my ears (maybe/probably I am getting old, too)
    the speed, the  acceleration (positve, negative) - unbelievable! Especially if you compare it to the Porsche Race
    the boredom of the race - unbelievable! I never visited a sport event where the sport is that boring! No action, no overtaking at all.
    the Ferrari overtaking - unbelievable! Is this sport, the top class of motorsport or is it a f*cking show like WWF wrestling?

    The conclusion: been there, done it, never again. It is too expensive to visit a boring show like this! TV/Internet or even the newspaper is enough.

    Here a two of my fotos

    911.jpgAfter

    One of the 911s racing with a destroyed rear

    f1.jpg

    The only time I saw the leading cars together.


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Here they are

    Hockenheim F1 2010 013.jpg

    Hockenheim F1 2010 030.jpg

    Hockenheim F1 2010 035.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 039.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 071.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 153.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 174.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 171.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 172.jpg

    Hockenheim F1 2010 076.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 180.jpg

     

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 184.jpg

    Hockenheim F1 2010 265.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 249.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 189.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 185.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 186.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 094.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 194.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 263.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 033.jpg

    Hockenheim F1 2010 068.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 022.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 023.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 040.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 090.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 092.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 110.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 141.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 129.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 144.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 257.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 256.jpg

    Hope you enjoy it, cause personally i did. To be in the paddock and pit lane, what a nice gift i've been receiving. Really i can only feel gratitude to be here on this planet and to share this great moment i've been having this week-end with you.

    I have more if you want.


    --

     CT, GT3, Cooper S


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Also seen on the Formula Paddock Parking maybe one of the First GT2 RSHockenheim F1 2010 006.jpg

    Hockenheim F1 2010 007.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 008.jpg

     

    and also this amazing one

    Hockenheim F1 2010 261.jpg

    Hockenheim F1 2010 259.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 260.jpg

     

    the nice FerrariHockenheim F1 2010 005.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 240.jpg

     

    Hockenheim F1 2010 239.jpg

    more pics of trucks and others nice things will follow


    --

     CT, GT3, Cooper S


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Awesome pics, Cram, thank you..I take it you have to get an invitation to get the full pass?, or can you pay for it?...Love to get close..


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    +1     More please!


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    Wow - amazing photos - Cram, next time, you gotta let me come with you - even if it's just to carry your bags  


    --

     
    RT Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

    Rennteam signature photo 2.jpg


    Re: 2010 German F1 Grand Prix at Hockenheim

    I recognize Eddie, Moe, Coulthard and I stood next to Niki in pit lane back in 1984. The chick behind Niki looks hot.

    You always had to protect your ears, though the pitch is irritating now, Great pics guys but these cars are just supremely ugly. I want 1200hp turbos again and long straights with passing.


     
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