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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    The Lewis vs. Schumacher battle for 20 some odd laps was most entertaining. Watching them trade the position back and forth - move, pass, block, attack, counter attack, slam the door. 

    For all the criticism of Michael's moves - all except for one were legal in my book. Over here in America, the land of "rubbing is racing" we don't even bat an eye at slamming the door or making the guy behind you brake check or risk going off the track. You're not supposed to 'leave room' for the car behind you.

    Rather, the car behind you is supposed to take a different line or anticipate your counter move and jink back

    In the end, Button was the beneficiary. He passed so easily because Schumacher's rear tires had reached the end of their life.


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Andrew Benson's blog on the Hamilton v Schumi tussle

    www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2011/09/post_2.html 


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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Wonderful race, not stunning by its plot but by the performance of some of the drivers. Agree that Liuzzi took the biscuit today for a simple Rookie mistake, he even accused Kovalainen to push him off to the grass.

    Schumacher´s moves were indeed barely legal but unlike previous episodes since his return did not come with a foul taste. As soon as he was passed, for example by Button, he left enough room for the opponent. I truly enjoyed it and this comes from someone that utterly disliked Schumacher´s old driving habits. Interesting to see with how much elegance Button can pass other drivers and his performance, judging by qualfying and race laptimes, has been about equal with Hamilton.

    Buemi obviously had brake problems at the end of the race, hence his earlier braking points.

    Some beautiful excerpts from BBC´s coverage:


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Again, I just like JB, he's going to win a few more races this season

    Great short videos! 


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Very enjoyable race, sad the battle wasn't for the outright win, but I thoroughly enjoyed Vettel's, Button's, Schumi's, Alonso and Hamilton's drives.


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    What is the point of giving Liuzzi a 5 place grid penalty if he will qualify last or in penultimate position on the grid in Singapore? 

    http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227/7170299/Sorry-Liuzzi-hit-with-grid-penalty


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    997.1 C2S
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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Button and Whitmarsh's views on Schumi v Hamilton

    http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/7171572/Button-Indignant-On-Hamilton-s-Behalf


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    997.1 C2S
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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Alonso says the title battle is as good as over

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14872972.stm


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    997.1 C2S
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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    easy_rider911:

    Button and Whitmarsh's views on Schumi v Hamilton

    http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/7171572/Button-Indignant-On-Hamilton-s-Behalf


    Lol for the comments below that article...

    Button needs to shut his trap and worry about his own racing. MS drove a fantastic race and when Lewis doesn't have a problem with it...why do you? Seriously....stop sucking up, not sure who your trying to impress, McLaren or Lewis....may be it's you who's lost your memory - here is a reminder "ITS 7 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS AGAINST 1"

    I think it was great to see Schumi up there fighting again.. Let's not turn this into a girls sport. The McLaren lacked straight up speed and IMO defending should be allowed to this mild degree.. ESPECIALLY since we have this DRS crap for the straights Smiley


     


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    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    I think the Planet F1 user comment posted is just nonsense.

    JB doesn't need to worry about his own racing when he came 2nd.

    I don't think Schumi drove a 'fantastic race'. He drove well but his excessive movements were very questionable.

    Hamilton didn't complain publicly but that is more because of the on-track and off-track problems he has been having recently rather than because of the rights and wrongs of what Schumi did on this occasion. In fact, Hamilton complained on the radio to his own team during the race asking "I thought you're only allowed one move?"

    Button is not sucking up to anyone. He was asked his opinion.

    Quoting the number of championships someone has won (7 versus 1) does not mean Schumi did nothing wrong during his 1st or 2nd careers. As a way of arguing one's point, this is what one might expect of an immature teenager.


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    997.1 C2S
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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    +100% agreed.


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    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    easy_rider911:

    I think the Planet F1 user comment posted is just nonsense.

    JB doesn't need to worry about his own racing when he came 2nd.

    I don't think Schumi drove a 'fantastic race'. He drove well but his excessive movements were very questionable.

    Hamilton didn't complain publicly but that is more because of the on-track and off-track problems he has been having recently rather than because of the rights and wrongs of what Schumi did on this occasion. In fact, Hamilton complained on the radio to his own team during the race asking "I thought you're only allowed one move?"

    Button is not sucking up to anyone. He was asked his opinion.

    Quoting the number of championships someone has won (7 versus 1) does not mean Schumi did nothing wrong during his 1st or 2nd careers. As a way of arguing one's point, this is what one might expect of an immature teenager.

    Button is a useful driver and after 12 seasons very experienced too. He also comes across in interviews very well, which is no surprise as they are carried out in his own native language.

    Recently, his biggest asset in racing has been the conservation of his tyres, so obviously he could take up a career as a taxi driver if he falls on difficult times any time in the future.

    I think he had no business discussing MS at all. I watched the race with at least 10 others and it was no big issue in everybody's opinion. The issue was McLaren's inferior top speed.

    But unfortunately MS's glory is too hard to stomach by some people in and around F1 and mostly by the British press.

    MS may be passed it at 42 (although he might win more races in a RBR car than Webber)  but we can be grateful that his successor Sebastian Vettel is gracing the F1 circuits around the world.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    reginos:

    Recently, his biggest asset in racing has been the conservation of his tyres, so obviously he could take up a career as a taxi driver if he falls on difficult times any time in the future.


    I´d say that doesn´t do his performance any justice. Indeed this year´s rules might favour him and Hamilton might still have that little edge over him in raw speed but his driving, passing manouvres and race intelligence is definitely on par with the other champions out there. Even if excluding the fact that he scored more points than Hamilton, the difference between them is far smaller than in the other competitive teams such as RedBull or Ferrari.

    It is interesting to see how well he performs in a proper car such as the McLaren, similiar to his performance in the BrawnGP or the Honda a few years ago everytime the car was competitive. If he would´ve ended his career parallel to Honda´s withdrawal, nobody would´ve considered him to be such a great loss for F1. Now consider what a worldchampionship title, increased confidence and a competitive car can change.

    Take a look at Senna in the HRT last year and compare it to his performance in the two most recent races. Take a look at Hülkenberg, who was a very promising driver up to F1 but couldn´t beat Barrichello in his maiden season. Take a look at Fisichella who put the Force India on pole position yet performed poorly in the Ferrari subsequently.

    Button´s manners and attitude on track as well as on camera certainly help him and complement Hamilton´s approach so I would be very surprised if they would not offer him a seat for 2012.


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Ferdie:
    reginos:

    Recently, his biggest asset in racing has been the conservation of his tyres, so obviously he could take up a career as a taxi driver if he falls on difficult times any time in the future.


    I´d say that doesn´t do his performance any justice.

    Obviously, my comment was tongue-in-cheek to exaggerate a point.

    JB is a very intelligent driver and can grab the advantage in changing conditions, qualities that often offset his lack of pure speed and aggression, but he is neither a Prost nor a Lauda of course.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Ferdie:
    reginos:

    Recently, his biggest asset in racing has been the conservation of his tyres, so obviously he could take up a career as a taxi driver if he falls on difficult times any time in the future.


    I´d say that doesn´t do his performance any justice. Indeed this year´s rules might favour him and Hamilton might still have that little edge over him in raw speed but his driving, passing manouvres and race intelligence is definitely on par with the other champions out there. Even if excluding the fact that he scored more points than Hamilton, the difference between them is far smaller than in the other competitive teams such as RedBull or Ferrari.

    It is interesting to see how well he performs in a proper car such as the McLaren, similiar to his performance in the BrawnGP or the Honda a few years ago everytime the car was competitive. If he would´ve ended his career parallel to Honda´s withdrawal, nobody would´ve considered him to be such a great loss for F1. Now consider what a worldchampionship title, increased confidence and a competitive car can change.

    Take a look at Senna in the HRT last year and compare it to his performance in the two most recent races. Take a look at Hülkenberg, who was a very promising driver up to F1 but couldn´t beat Barrichello in his maiden season. Take a look at Fisichella who put the Force India on pole position yet performed poorly in the Ferrari subsequently.

    Button´s manners and attitude on track as well as on camera certainly help him and complement Hamilton´s approach so I would be very surprised if they would not offer him a seat for 2012.


    Insightful post Smiley


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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Martin Brundle thinks Schumi was lucky to get away with it

    news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14883755.stm 


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    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    More incoherent nonsense from Liuzzi. He has the nerve to claim Kovaleinen pushed him out onto the grass. And he hasn't watched the videos yet. Maybe when he watches them, he will realise that it wasn't Kovaleinen's fault but his own fault.

    http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227/7171807/-Oh-s-t-Liuzzi-blames-Kovalainen


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    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    easy_rider911:

    Martin Brundle thinks Schumi was lucky to get away with it

    news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14883755.stm 

    Brundle is like the proverbial consultant, who tells everybody else how to do things but never managed to do it himself (at high level, at least).


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    reginos:
    easy_rider911:

    Martin Brundle thinks Schumi was lucky to get away with it

    news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14883755.stm 

    Brundle is like the proverbial consultant, who tells everybody else how to do things but never managed to do it himself (at high level, at least).

     Yet he's the best at what he does now, imho...


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    +1  I think he was an excellent race analyst and is now a very good race commentator.

    I think reginos's view is too harsh. Brundle had 9 podium finishes in his career in F1. He also won Le Mans in 1990 and the World Sportscar Championship in 1988.

    He drove 1 year in each of Williams, McLaren and Benetton so he only had a competitive car for those 3 individual years. The rest of the time he was in less competitive cars in Tyrrell, Zakspeed, Brabham, Ligier and Jordan.

    Although he was not spectacular, he was nonetheless a solid race driver - so I think it's unfair to say that he never managed to achieve anything himself and which is why IMO it's unfair to imply that he is commenting on others without having achieved anything himself.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Brundle

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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    He is an eloquent presenter on TV,  but very few remember him as a F1 driver, outside the UK where he gets his TV exposure.

     


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Many countries rely on TV commentary from the BBC to accompany the TV pictures supplied by Ecclestone so Brundle's audience is a good deal wider than just the UK. Next year, Sky will take over live broadcasting for all 20 races ... and Sky is viewed by satellite subscribers in the UK, Ireland, Holland, Belgium and other northern European countries. F1 fans readily look people up in Wikipedia to know whom they are listening to. He is well known for his grid walk before each race where drivers will often stop to give him interviews. They wouldn't do that if he was a nobody.


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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    All this doesn't make him a top driver but a good commentator. Which was my initial point.

    His F1 racing record is very lacklustre with 9 podiums in 158 starts. I imagine he likes to remember that he out-qualified once or twice his then team mate Schumacher in distant 1992.


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    You're shifting your ground

    Neither of us claimed he was a top driver. The difference is that you were saying that he is someone who comments on what others do without having done much himself. IMO the facts don't support your view.

    Plenty of drivers go through their whole careers without driving for a top team and without scoring any podiums. He has done both and he has won Le Mans. I just think your view on his driving career was too harsh.

    As a commentator, he is perceptive and can be blunt. I've never regarded him as being particularly eloquent. The reason I enjoy listening to him is that he analyses the situation well in the heat of the action. He can do this precisely because he has 'been there and done that' which is also the point I have been making all along.


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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    There are many ex-sports people like that. They analyze the "game" on TV much better than their performance when they engaged in their sport.

    On the contrary, I wish I could follow a commentary by Lauda or Prost, for example.
    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Prost yes, Lauda no

    Being a commentator or analyst requires objectivity and good judgment. Prost strikes me as being a very reflective, intelligent man who would provide fascinating insights into F1.

    Lauda was a superb driver but his post-racing interactions in F1 have IMHO tarnished his image somewhat. He has developed a reputation for speaking first and thinking later and for making comments that shock others. Although provoking a reaction can be a good thing sometimes, Lauda's style of provocation does not indicate that he would have the calm objectivity that makes a good commentator or analyst.


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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    Not sure whether it is Lauda´s character or his position within RTL´s F1 coverage but his comments are first and foremost dull and shallow. Might be because he is away from the sport for such a long time but he seems to have a rather distant view on a lot of things. Christian Danner, his colleague and former F1 driver as well, has a far more senseful approach and gives insights that go beyond the regular viewer´s common knowledge.

    I enjoy Brundle´s commentary and especially his Q&A gridwalk session prior to the race. The effort the BBC has put into their coverage is impressive, from its intro to the postrace discussions. Also agree with Easy that Brundle has performed better than some might see him or, in other way, he has simply been underrated during his F1 career.

    To the topic itself, I cannot help but sense a certain nationalism in Brundle´s view towards Schumacher´s behaviour in Monza. The direct relation to Hamilton´s driving (and subsequent reprimands) over the entire season reveals what Brundle is implying in his commentary. I agree with him that there are rules to follow as well as what he calles "sporting trust" among drivers to adhere to but both Schumacher and Hamilton are the prime examples on the grid that interpret and exploit the set of rules to the fullest extend. In that respect, they are on a par.

    Whether it was Hamilton himself or someone telling him to do so, refraining from commenting further on the race battle was one of the most mature things he has done this season.


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    So the Race Director merely warned Mercedes GP about Schumi's driving without involving the race stewards ... who might well have issued Schumi with a penalty ...

    http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227/7174374/-Stewards-not-consulted-over-Schumi-driving-

    Interesting ... Alonso apologised to Vettel after the race for not leaving Vettel with enough room to overtake ... that IMO should be enough to draw a line under the incident (IMO, credit goes to Alonso for admitting his mistake).

    But, Vettel still asked the stewards to investigate the incident. Not the right spirit IMO.

    I can imagine how frustrated Webber must be feeling with having to deal with Vettel if Vettel behaves like this towards others.


    --


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    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    easy_rider911:


    But, Vettel still asked the stewards to investigate the incident. Not the right spirit IMO.

    I can imagine how frustrated Webber must be feeling with having to deal with Vettel if Vettel behaves like this towards others.

    If Vettel did this, it was to pre-empt similar incidents in the future. The Championship fight is not over yet, and no one can be sure about Scuderia Ferrari's  Machiavellian tactics until the title is mathematically secured. SV is very down to earth on the Title fight.

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/94530

    I cannot understand why everybody sympathizes so much with Webber.

    Nice guy according to the media and a useful number 2 in the mould of Barichello, Coulthard, Massa and others. But F1 champion?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Italian F1 Grand Prix at Monza

    easy_rider911:

    So the Race Director merely warned Mercedes GP about Schumi's driving without involving the race stewards ... who might well have issued Schumi with a penalty ...

    http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227/7174374/-Stewards-not-consulted-over-Schumi-driving-

    Interesting ... Alonso apologised to Vettel after the race for not leaving Vettel with enough room to overtake ... that IMO should be enough to draw a line under the incident (IMO, credit goes to Alonso for admitting his mistake).

    But, Vettel still asked the stewards to investigate the incident. Not the right spirit IMO.

    I can imagine how frustrated Webber must be feeling with having to deal with Vettel if Vettel behaves like this towards others.

     

     

    Is there any official confirmation, that Vettel asked the stewards to investigate the Alonso-incident.

    I can´t find anything on the FIA-Website.

    http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Pages/post_event.aspx

    After the race before the podium he talked with Alonso and they both had a laugh about the situation - Vettel told Alonso:"That was close, I went on the grass... " with a smile on his face.

    Thanks

    Blueflame Smiley

     


     
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