Crown

According to our sources, the next generation Panamera will be based on the Audi A8, using the same platform and technology. The first car based on this platform, besides the new Audi A8 of course, is the new Bentley Mulsanne.

There is also a strong rumor that currently, VW is refusing to share further modern Diesel technology and other "goodies" with Porsche until "a couple of things are sorted out first".

This could have a serious impact on the availability and/or presentation of the Panamera Diesel.

Again...rumors...take them with a grain of salt.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 The next Cayenne will have a diesel engine from beginning with nearly 300 hp.

The next Panamera will be a V6 and not a diesel, in my neiberhood is one V6.

AM
www.aldo-yachting.de

RC:

There is also a strong rumor that currently, VW is refusing to share further modern Diesel technology and other "goodies" with Porsche until "a couple of things are sorted out first".

This could have a serious impact on the availability and/or presentation of the Panamera Diesel.

Again...rumors...take them with a grain of salt.

 

I presume the above, even if there was some truth in it, must be old news. As from 7 Dec 2009 VW own 49.9% of Porsche AG and therefore they don't have to be afraid of anything.

BTW The Sovereign Fund of Qatar as from 18 Dec 2009 have 17% voting stake in VW AG.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

reginos:

RC:

There is also a strong rumor that currently, VW is refusing to share further modern Diesel technology and other "goodies" with Porsche until "a couple of things are sorted out first".

This could have a serious impact on the availability and/or presentation of the Panamera Diesel.

Again...rumors...take them with a grain of salt.

 

 

I presume the above, even if there was some truth in it, must be old news. As from 7 Dec 2009 VW own 49.9% of Porsche AG and therefore they don't have to be afraid of anything.

BTW The Sovereign Fund of Qatar as from 18 Dec 2009 have 17% voting stake in VW AG.

 

Guys, you should start to READ carefully.

@reginos: This is NEW, VW owns Porsche BUT Porsche is still acting pretty independent. This is why VW put a halt on Porsche requests for VW technology until "things are sorted out". There seems to be some sort of internal memo and I shut up now. 

@ALDO: see above. The NEXT GENERATION Panamera will be based on the Audi A8. This is a decision VW has taken recently, they want to use the 1.5 Billion EUR development cost Audi A8 platform for various models, incl. the next generation Panamera and the Lamborghini sedan. The new Bentley Mulsanne already uses this platform. 

The CURRENT generation Panamera gets a Diesel but it maybe delayed due to various issues between VW & Porsche, see my reply to reginos. Of course there will be a Panamera V6 too, we have posted this over a year ago. 

The NEXT GENERATION Cayenne gets a Diesel but there is the same issue with VW, it may be delayed for that reason. Porsche wants some pretty advanced Diesel technology from the VW "conglomerate" but apparently VW isn't willing to give it to them too easy. 

OK ?!  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Hmm, Panamera with Audi's V12 diesel....................................................yummy

Whoopsy:

Hmm, Panamera with Audi's V12 diesel....................................................yummy

This is exactly where the problems started...VW wants to have clear and precise differences between the various brands.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

reginos:

RC:

There is also a strong rumor that currently, VW is refusing to share further modern Diesel technology and other "goodies" with Porsche until "a couple of things are sorted out first".

This could have a serious impact on the availability and/or presentation of the Panamera Diesel.

Again...rumors...take them with a grain of salt.

 

 

I presume the above, even if there was some truth in it, must be old news. As from 7 Dec 2009 VW own 49.9% of Porsche AG and therefore they don't have to be afraid of anything.

BTW The Sovereign Fund of Qatar as from 18 Dec 2009 have 17% voting stake in VW AG.

 

 

Guys, you should start to READ carefully.

@reginos: This is NEW, VW owns Porsche BUT Porsche is still acting pretty independent. This is why VW put a halt on Porsche requests for VW technology until "things are sorted out". There seems to be some sort of internal memo and I shut up now. 

@ALDO: see above. The NEXT GENERATION Panamera will be based on the Audi A8. This is a decision VW has taken recently, they want to use the 1.5 Billion EUR development cost Audi A8 platform for various models, incl. the next generation Panamera and the Lamborghini sedan. The new Bentley Mulsanne already uses this platform. 

The CURRENT generation Panamera gets a Diesel but it maybe delayed due to various issues between VW & Porsche, see my reply to reginos. Of course there will be a Panamera V6 too, we have posted this over a year ago. 

The NEXT GENERATION Cayenne gets a Diesel but there is the same issue with VW, it may be delayed for that reason. Porsche wants some pretty advanced Diesel technology from the VW "conglomerate" but apparently VW isn't willing to give it to them too easy. 

OK ?!  

 Of course it will get a V6 engine - my post should mean the next engine will be a V6 gasoline engine and not a diesel engine.

What sense does a V12 diesel mean in Panamera? non-sense - so if the get the diesel for Cayenne why shouldn´t they get the same engine for Panamera?

AM
www.aldo-yachting.de

Is that A8 platform superior to the current Panamera? If the Panamera is superior to the A8 it would make more sense to migrate it to the A8 instead.

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A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

RC:

Whoopsy:

Hmm, Panamera with Audi's V12 diesel....................................................yummy

 

This is exactly where the problems started...VW wants to have clear and precise differences between the various brands.

I would hope that Porsche would want that too. No?

(If they don't, then it's worse than I feared!)

ADias:

Is that A8 platform superior to the current Panamera? If the Panamera is superior to the A8 it would make more sense to migrate it to the A8 instead.

Yes, it is superior but in a certain sense: this platform can use the same technology (night vision radar, MMI, etc. etc. etc. etc.) for ALL different models, just the look of the stuff needs to be adapted. Meaning: VW can save A LOT of money and still be able to offer various DIFFERENT LOOKING models with different abilities and adapt the same technologies to different cars. This means for example that the Bentley, the Porsche, the VW, the Audi, the Skoda, the Lamborghini can actually share the same navigation system with advanced technology but different looks/software. From the outside, everything is different, from the inside, everything is the same. Big money saver, also allowing to offer advanced technology for ALL models. This also reduces development cost because it is sufficient to develop ONE system for each platform only (of course incl. the necessary adjustments).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Night vision and other doodads do not make for a better platform. A platform is the chassis design, suspension, materials, weight, mass distribution, rigidity, etc. I doubt the A8 chassis is superior to the Panamera's.

VW may consider the A8 better from its modularity/component sharing perspective. But that does not make it a better platform for the consumer.

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

ADias:

Night vision and other doodads do not make for a better platform. A platform is the chassis design, suspension, materials, weight, mass distribution, rigidity, etc. I doubt the A8 chassis is superior to the Panamera's.

VW may consider the A8 better from its modularity/component sharing perspective. But that does not make it a better platform for the consumer.

OTOH the singularity of the Panamera platform has made the car very expensive compared to its very competent rivals from other top brands. A Cayenne is engineered to drive and feel very different from a Touareg but because of its platform sharing there are cost savings and hence more attractive pricing.

I understand very well mass market economics and component sharing. If that is the concern... share the Panamera platform with the other brands and not the other way around. Improve the breed instead of castrating it. :)

_________________________________________________________ 

A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

A month , or so , ago - the news was that VW will use Panamera platform for some other models / brands within the group.  

Piech would never admit the Porsche Panamera platform is superior to HIS Audi A8 platform, so the short answer is to kill the brand new Porsche one. Easy.

VAG is already setup to share the A8 platform among it's brands, A8, Phaeton, Bentley, so it's not too big a deal to add one more to the mix.

In the idea world, the Phaeton would take I4s and V6s with strip out interior to fight with Camry and Accord in the low end, Porsche gets the high power V8 engines to be the performance versions, and Audi gets the V6 and V12 diesels to be the green powerhouse and to echo their racing efforts.

Bentley? Replace the carbon fiber trims in the Porsche with wood, add more leather and voila instant Bentley version.

Whoopsy:

Piech would never admit the Porsche Panamera platform is superior to HIS Audi A8 platform, so the short answer is to kill the brand new Porsche one. Easy.

VAG is already setup to share the A8 platform among it's brands, A8, Phaeton, Bentley, so it's not too big a deal to add one more to the mix.

In the idea world, the Phaeton would take I4s and V6s with strip out interior to fight with Camry and Accord in the low end, Porsche gets the high power V8 engines to be the performance versions, and Audi gets the V6 and V12 diesels to be the green powerhouse and to echo their racing efforts.

Bentley? Replace the carbon fiber trims in the Porsche with wood, add more leather and voila instant Bentley version.

 

I can see you understand very well how things will work. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

ADias:

VW may consider the A8 better from its modularity/component sharing perspective. But that does not make it a better platform for the consumer.

Big companies need to earn money. Period. 

Better platform for the consumer ? Well...the A8 platform also has its advantages, it allows Porsche to always use the latest technology (navigation, night vision, gearboxes, drivetrain, etc. etc.) without the need to actually develop it completely new. It is easier to adapt technology to needs than to develop it from scratch.

Btw: the A8 platform has its compromises (of course, it needs to "fit" different cars) but it is actually a very good platform as far as I heard. The development cost was around 1.5 Billion EUR, the development cost of the Panamera platform was 1 Billion EUR. Porsche needed to do a lot of things from scratch, VW/Audi profited from former experience.

Look at the current Cayenne: most of the blackboxes, drivertrain, etc. actually have the VW logo on them.  It doesn't need to be a bad thing.

Porsches are getting more and more expensive, lowering production cost will allow them to keep their current price level or to offer MORE (options, etc.) for the same money but at the same time allowing them to be very profitable.

I don't think that the "regular" Porsche customer will ever know/learn the difference. Not everybody is a car nut like WE are.  

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Look at the current Cayenne: most of the blackboxes, drivertrain, etc. actually have the VW logo on them.  It doesn't need to be a bad thing.

Porsches are getting more and more expensive, lowering production cost will allow them to keep their current price level or to offer MORE (options, etc.) for the same money but at the same time allowing them to be very profitable.

Totally agree, so far there is no need to differentiate the inside parts of those components as the customer is satifsfied with a different graphical layout and a couple different functions (just as on a mobile phone).If one considers how many weirdly set up ABS systems are offered today, there is enough potential on hardware and calibration.

After all, Porsche always has historically close relations to VW/Audi in sharing components so that shouldn´t be such an issue nowadays...

Ferdie:

After all, Porsche always has historically close relations to VW/Audi in sharing components so that shouldn´t be such an issue nowadays...

Nowadays they share components at they high end of technology so no one should complain.

In the 70s the 924 Porsche had a 4 cylinder engine based on a VW commercial van. However, that car was very acclaimed for its handling and robustness and when turboed for its speed.

It's not so much the ingredients but the cook that counts. Or, different cooks can make different tastes using the same ingredients.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

reginos:

It's not so much the ingredients but the cook that counts. Or, different cooks can make different tastes using the same ingredients.

 

 Very well said. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

reginos:

It's not so much the ingredients but the cook that counts. Or, different cooks can make different tastes using the same ingredients.

Certainly right. After all my reference goes back to the technical similiarities between Volkswagen Beetle and Porsche 356 in the late 40ies, and apart from the engine on the 924, quite a few other parts were derived from VW, such as the keys and doorlocks.

We are talking in circles. I have no problem in sharing components/parts/doodads. I am more concerned about chassis and suspension design. The A8 is not a driver's car as a Panamera is. Just go out and test both on a fast twisty road. :)

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A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.

The Audi A8 development boss just told the press that the A8 is the sportiest sedan in the world.

I guess we need to wait for the S8 and a head to head comparison but in the past, Porsche was always a step ahead of Audi regarding sportiness.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

ADias:

We are talking in circles. I have no problem in sharing components/parts/doodads. I am more concerned about chassis and suspension design. The A8 is not a driver's car as a Panamera is. Just go out and test both on a fast twisty road. :)

Keep in mind the vast difference in handling characteristics between, for example, the "humble" 997 Carrera and a 997 GT3, both effectively built on  the same platform.

Even using the same suspension mounting points on a common platform, just a few hardware changes and a different suspension setup philosophy on the part of the chassis engineers can lead to vastly different handling characteristics, depending on the drivers that a particular car model is aimed at. 

It would all come down to the objectives and the abilities of the engineers involved. 

fritz

fritz:

It would all come down to the objectives and the abilities of the engineers involved. 

Very well said. I don't think that using ONE platform is a bad thing as long as this platform isn't too "limitating". Lowering cost could actually allow Porsche to offer more and different models for different "audiences" based on the same platform. As long as they look and drive different, I have no problem with that.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW