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    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Check out this Porsche memo sourced from TMZ:

    CGT.png


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    JoeRockhead:

    Check out this Porsche memo sourced from TMZ:

    CGT.png

     

    It´s really delicate, more than I could imagine !

    J.Seven


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    It is all speculation on what happened. They still do not know who was driving. That will come later in the week. 

    For now, RIP Walker and Rodas.


    --
    Porsche owner since 1975.

    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    J.Seven:
    JoeRockhead:

    Check out this Porsche memo sourced from TMZ:

    CGT.png

     

    It´s really delicate, more than I could imagine !

    J.Seven

    To put it bluntly, I think that memo tells us more about the idiot who wrote it than it does about the Carrera GT.  


    --

    fritz


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    fritz:
    J.Seven:
    JoeRockhead:

    Check out this Porsche memo sourced from TMZ:

    CGT.png

     

    It´s really delicate, more than I could imagine !

    J.Seven

    To put it bluntly, I think that memo tells us more about the idiot who wrote it than it does about the Carrera GT.  

    Or the idiots who built it.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    We live in a rather strange period of history. We have developed a culture addicted to the thrill and reward of high risk activities while simultaneously loathe to accept the responsibility for all the negative effects when risk results in a failure which was an inherent possibility all along. This has become the norm in business, personal finance, and recreational activities, where third parties are sought to assume risk responsibility (typically through legal means) after the pooch has been screwed. 


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Cars are crashed every second, from superminis to supercars.

    Most often it is driver error i.e. underestimation of hazards and/or overestimation of abilities.

    Why all this fuss because it was an expensive Porsche?

    With the deceased driver's attitude this could happen in a Miata too.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    fritz:
     

    To put it bluntly, I think that memo tells us more about the idiot who wrote it than it does about the Carrera GT.  

    Very well said, even if I think that the writer of the memo actually meant well. Smiley

    One of our admins, CR, owns a Carrera GT for a couple of years now. He joined many events with the car. I also had the chance to drive the Carrera GT on various occasions. Yes, the clutch is kind of "interesting" (to say at least) but the car is not difficult to drive if you respect one simple rule: Just adapt your driving to your driving skills. It couldn't be simpler. I didn't crash it, CR didn't crash it (he really drives quite fast, believe me) and there are others in this forum who own a Carrera GT and never had a crash. Why? Because they are good drivers, they drive their Carrera GT adapted to their driving skills and avoid taking risks, especially on public roads.

    The Carrera GT is a wonderful car but it has no PSM (ESP), just traction control. It provides what some of you here in the forum call the "raw" driving experience. Everyone can drive a Carrera GT (well, if you can handle the clutch in city traffic Smiley) but no one is forced to go to the limit in this car. 

    I read so many comments about Porsche's "responsibility" for the Carrera GT "flaws". What "flaws"? The Carrera GT is in it's class unique, a masterpiece, this car has no flaws. Yes, it may require some attention now regarding chassis setups and especially tires (the car is almost ten years on the market) but I guess someone like Roger Rodas who is in the business with fast cars, would have actually been very aware of it.

    That said, I think we should wait for the investigation results. It is very sad what happened and yes, it shouldn't have happened but blaming the Carrera GT or even Porsche for such an accident is highly exaggerated, maybe even dumb.

    I can kill myself in a Toyota Camry if I hit a lamp pole and a tree at 50, 60 or 80 mph, so... Smiley

    On a different note I would also express my deepest disappointment as a human being how the accident and the circumstances is discussed in the social media on the internet. Some people seem to be sociopaths, others seem to have not a bit of compassion for their fellow human beings and others are full of hate against anything related to money and fame. Reading some of these comments, even jokes about the death of these two people, makes me almost being ashamed to be called a human being. I would love to meet some of these idiots face to face and look into their eyes when they make these horrible comments. If there is a god, these people will go to hell. Sorry about that, I had to say it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    RC:
     

    On a different note I would also express my deepest disappointment as a human being how the accident and the circumstances is discussed in the social media on the internet. Some people seem to be sociopaths, others seem to have not a bit of compassion for their fellow human beings and others are full of hate against anything related to money and fame. Reading some of these comments, even jokes about the death of these two people, makes me almost being ashamed to be called a human being. I would love to meet some of these idiots face to face and look into their eyes when they make these horrible comments. If there is a god, these people will go to hell. Sorry about that, I had to say it.

    Agreed. The biggest downside to the Internet is that it gives a voice to people who should really STFU. You can see it in YouTube, newspapers, Facebook, everywhere. This is how many people will act when there are no consequences for their actions. 

    Some people are saying he had it coming because of all the movies he has been in that have glorified dangerous driving. Some folks can't separate reality from entertainment I guess. Smiley


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    I believe the word in German is schadenfreude?  It's as old as humanity.


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Thee CGT is a fabulous car. If you want your hair to stand up just give it full throttle and let it rip. The rush is unbelievable. It requires your undivided 100% attention because you get no help. You are on your own. 

    And that is what makes the car so attractive and dangerous. Owners of this car are not going to cruise around town. Its clutch is sensitive and the power 612hp is difficult to control on the street. This is a $450,000 car and it screams to be driven. People cannot resist especially when people want rides.

    I have driven this car a number of times and it is a handful. Ben did soften the settings as Mike recommended and its still was difficult to drive. The car should be owned by expert drivers like Mike and driven primarily at a track or save street locales.

    BTW, I question the authenticity of the document posted indicated it came from Porsche. If it did, the person who wrote it should be fired if he has not already been.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    nberry:

    BTW, I question the authenticity of the document posted indicated it came from Porsche. If it did, the person who wrote it should be fired if he has not already been.

    That's pretty harsh. Why?


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    There are a number of ways to convey the information professionally. I assume if authentic this came from an Australian Porsche facility.

    BTW, why wasn't this shared with the prospective buyers and owners of the car?


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    nberry:

    There are a number of ways to convey the information professionally. I assume if authentic this came from an Australian Porsche facility.

    BTW, why wasn't this shared with the prospective buyers and owners of the car?

    I think this was probably a regional sales manager sending a note to his GMs prior to his arrival, it wasn't intended to be an official memo from the factory IMO.

    These dealerships are in and around Minnesota.



    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    nberry:

    There are a number of ways to convey the information professionally. I assume if authentic this came from an Australian Porsche facility.

    BTW, why wasn't this shared with the prospective buyers and owners of the car?

    Exactly. Smiley  The sensationalist language used in that memo suggests it was written from the perspective of someone more accustomed to dealing with GMC trucks than expensive sports cars, and I also question whether he would have survived very long in a company like Porsche which I happen to know is rather "anal" about its communication. 

    By the way, the dealerships mentioned in the header are in the Mid-West, so it obviously came from PCNA.

    Nick, I don't think that any prospective buyers of the car were left in any doubt at the time that it had been developed by the racing department as its take of a street legal version of a track car, and that in consequence it would have features like the limited ground clearance that you would expect such a car to have. It was also obvious that a car in that price class would be made up of parts which would be very expensive to replace in the event of being damaged. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Sad for their families, but these guys died by misadventure. Sunny day, fast car, pro driving skills - but the end of their luck. If only they hadn't been speeding.... but they had been speeding a million times before and never lost it. This time their luck was up. Fortunately no bystanders were injured.

    Want to point at the CGT as some kind of sinister automobile boogeyman? Ok. So then just how slow is a VW Golf rental car? Here are four people who died in a rented Golf.  When its time to go, its time to go. Sorry for them also. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Four-Killed-Westchester-Sprain-Brook-Parkway-Car-Crash-Accident-221992091.html

     


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    fritz:
    J.Seven:
    JoeRockhead:

    Check out this Porsche memo sourced from TMZ:

    CGT.png

     

    It´s really delicate, more than I could imagine !

    J.Seven

    To put it bluntly, I think that memo tells us more about the idiot who wrote it than it does about the Carrera GT.  

    I agree. It sounds like a regional sales or service rep freelancing, not something that would have been condoned by Porsche or PCNA. 

    Does not surprise me. If you have run a company of any size, you know how challenging it is to control what every person in the field says and communicates.

     


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    fritz:
    nberry:

    There are a number of ways to convey the information professionally. I assume if authentic this came from an Australian Porsche facility.

    BTW, why wasn't this shared with the prospective buyers and owners of the car?

    Exactly. Smiley  The sensationalist language used in that memo suggests it was written from the perspective of someone more accustomed to dealing with GMC trucks than expensive sports cars, and I also question whether he would have survived very long in a company like Porsche which I happen to know is rather "anal" about its communication. 

    By the way, the dealerships mentioned in the header are in the Mid-West, so it obviously came from PCNA.

    Nick, I don't think that any prospective buyers of the car were left in any doubt at the time that it had been developed by the racing department as its take of a street legal version of a track car, and that in consequence it would have features like the limited ground clearance that you would expect such a car to have. It was also obvious that a car in that price class would be made up of parts which would be very expensive to replace in the event of being damaged. 

    Fritz, Ben and i conferred before he bought one and I was five minutes away from buying one. Neither one of us were aware of the unsuitability of the car for street use. Had the information in this memo be shared with the public, a lot less CGT's would have been sold. I doubt Ben and I know I would not have considered buying one knowing what we knew then.

    That said, the comments in the memo are for the most part not true. Other than some front end grounding, the car hardly ever scraped even at speed. Hopefully my 991GT3 will be easier to drive given the technology and much more suitable for street driving.kiss


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Very sad and tragic story, not much to add in addition to the above comments. surprise


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    fritz:
    nberry:

    There are a number of ways to convey the information professionally. I assume if authentic this came from an Australian Porsche facility.

    BTW, why wasn't this shared with the prospective buyers and owners of the car?

    Exactly. Smiley  The sensationalist language used in that memo suggests it was written from the perspective of someone more accustomed to dealing with GMC trucks than expensive sports cars, and I also question whether he would have survived very long in a company like Porsche which I happen to know is rather "anal" about its communication. 

    By the way, the dealerships mentioned in the header are in the Mid-West, so it obviously came from PCNA.

    Nick, I don't think that any prospective buyers of the car were left in any doubt at the time that it had been developed by the racing department as its take of a street legal version of a track car, and that in consequence it would have features like the limited ground clearance that you would expect such a car to have. It was also obvious that a car in that price class would be made up of parts which would be very expensive to replace in the event of being damaged. 


    Absolutely agree with you, Fritz, on all accounts. I have not driven the CGT myself but from comments of experienced owners the car is not tricky or deceiving in its handling, rather the opposite, but one does need to be experienced. Most cars feature a handling that does leave a margin of error even if the driver gives a counterproductive input. The CGT obviously doesn´t. Most people though expect today´s cars to exhibit such a safety-oriented handling. This all leads me to the question how Porsche (or Mercedes-McLaren) expected to sell hundreds of them to appropriate buyers.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Ferdie:
    fritz:
    nberry:

    There are a number of ways to convey the information professionally. I assume if authentic this came from an Australian Porsche facility.

    BTW, why wasn't this shared with the prospective buyers and owners of the car?

    Exactly. Smiley  The sensationalist language used in that memo suggests it was written from the perspective of someone more accustomed to dealing with GMC trucks than expensive sports cars, and I also question whether he would have survived very long in a company like Porsche which I happen to know is rather "anal" about its communication. 

    By the way, the dealerships mentioned in the header are in the Mid-West, so it obviously came from PCNA.

    Nick, I don't think that any prospective buyers of the car were left in any doubt at the time that it had been developed by the racing department as its take of a street legal version of a track car, and that in consequence it would have features like the limited ground clearance that you would expect such a car to have. It was also obvious that a car in that price class would be made up of parts which would be very expensive to replace in the event of being damaged. 


    Absolutely agree with you, Fritz, on all accounts. I have not driven the CGT myself but from comments of experienced owners the car is not tricky or deceiving in its handling, rather the opposite, but one does need to be experienced. Most cars feature a handling that does leave a margin of error even if the driver gives a counterproductive input. The CGT obviously doesn´t. Most people though expect today´s cars to exhibit such a safety-oriented handling. This all leads me to the question how Porsche (or Mercedes-McLaren) expected to sell hundreds of them to appropriate buyers.

    Don't forget that the CGT and the Mercedes-McLaren were developed at a time when ESP systems were in their infancy and not as widely fitted as they are today, and nowhere near as sophisticated or well-tuned as they have become in the meantime. They were among the last of the high-performance cars built without such systems and initially sold to drivers who knew what to expect from injudicious use of their right foot, whether on throttle or brake pedal. 
    ESP systems have become pretty much universal on such cars in the meantime and there is probably already a "generation" of drivers who have never learnt to cope without such aids.

    Nobody knows yet what happened to cause the accident in this instance but we can be sure that there are already lawyers rubbing their hands at a chance of going after the target perceived to have the deepest pockets regardless.


    --

    fritz


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    nberry:
    Had the information in this memo be shared with the public, a lot less CGT's would have been sold.  ....
     

    That said, the comments in the memo are for the most part not true. 

    Sorry, Nick, but you've lost me due to the contradiction between those two sentences.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    JoeRockhead:
    fritz:
    J.Seven:
    JoeRockhead:

    Check out this Porsche memo sourced from TMZ:

    CGT.png

     

    It´s really delicate, more than I could imagine !

    J.Seven

    To put it bluntly, I think that memo tells us more about the idiot who wrote it than it does about the Carrera GT.  

    Or the idiots who built it.

     

    We knew the Carrera GT wasn't suppose to be a road car program. It WAS supposed to be a Motorsport race car, but got canned by Piech at the last minute because of his beloved Audi's R8. Also the concurrently running Cayenne program didn't help as it sucked up pretty much every last engineering resources and the Carrera GT program had to make to with what's left. 

    The road car was born from the wreckage to savage the program, at least to recoup some money back.

    In other words, the Carrera GT was a race car in disguise, wasn't even intended to be street driven in the first place. Which is why it is such a sensational feeling car to the drivers who can control it. It's also why it was so 'raw', so difficult to control, and why it doesn't have a lot of the safety nets a properly designed road car should have. Of course it gets labeled as the best analog sports car, because it was a race car!!

    In the end, it was more like the accountants who decided to build it, not the engineers, all for the bottom line. 

    So one of the greatest analog sports car is built by accountants, that's got to be the most ironic fact.


    --

     


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Car got a little "twitchy"  Always do when u hit the hammer !  Uber over steer ... every time!   Mid-engine great for cornering balance but don't get  enough tire surface planted;  tw: rear engines r located over the wheel (more or less), mid-engines get no weight on top of tires.  All this mechanical cause of the accident is whoooy.  If the brakes r working and he's going a proper speed for conditions there is no accident.

    Porsche won't pay a dime, even if, in fact, Paul was the passenger.  Paid close to zero in the Calif Speedway double death CGT slam.  They have no liability.  They didn't cause the accdt BUT maybe it should not  have exploded so readily and voluminously  + r the seat restraints amenable to quick disengagement when necessary., etc.

    In sum, these boys were bookin - 120 ??!! in a FORTY mph zone.

    Someone said that only 75% of them r extant.

     


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    II drove my GT for 16000 miles ,drove on the track many times and enjoyed it very much .

    Drove the car fast but with great respect . My only regret is that I sold it

     


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    fritz:
    nberry:
    Had the information in this memo be shared with the public, a lot less CGT's would have been sold.  ....
     

    That said, the comments in the memo are for the most part not true. 

    Sorry, Nick, but you've lost me due to the contradiction between those two sentences.  Smiley

    I see why you are confused. What I meant to say was IF that memo was presented to prospective buyers before buying the car, I doubt many would have purchased the it. The memo seems to say that the car is unsuitable for street driving when in fact that is not true. But at that time we would have not known that. None of us were allowed to test drive the car. As a result, the memo coming from a Porsche official would have discouraged interested CGT buyers.


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    nberry:
    fritz:
    nberry:
    Had the information in this memo be shared with the public, a lot less CGT's would have been sold.  ....
     

    That said, the comments in the memo are for the most part not true. 

    Sorry, Nick, but you've lost me due to the contradiction between those two sentences.  Smiley

    I see why you are confused. What I meant to say was IF that memo was presented to prospective buyers before buying the car, I doubt many would have purchased the it. The memo seems to say that the car is unsuitable for street driving when in fact that is not true. But at that time we would have not known that. None of us were allowed to test drive the car. As a result, the memo coming from a Porsche official would have discouraged interested CGT buyers.

    That memo looked as if it was prepared to "advise" sales and tech personnel at the dealerships not to drive the cars before delivery through scare-break it and you will pay-tactics.  Porsche NA, in order to legally make the car available for sale in the U.S., needed to meet a series of DOT regulations.  These regulations would not allow a non-streetable car to be sold as a roadworthy car.  


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    nberry:
    fritz:
    nberry:
    Had the information in this memo be shared with the public, a lot less CGT's would have been sold.  ....
     

    That said, the comments in the memo are for the most part not true. 

    Sorry, Nick, but you've lost me due to the contradiction between those two sentences.  Smiley

    I see why you are confused. What I meant to say was IF that memo was presented to prospective buyers before buying the car, I doubt many would have purchased the it. The memo seems to say that the car is unsuitable for street driving when in fact that is not true. But at that time we would have not known that. None of us were allowed to test drive the car. As a result, the memo coming from a Porsche official would have discouraged interested CGT buyers.

    That's why I referred to him as an idiot. I wasn't using the term lightly. That memo was not only wrong and misleading in terms of the information it contained but also totally unprofessional in style and  -  as far as we can tell from what was reproduced here  -  lacking in any clear, practicable guidelines regarding how the car needed to be treated and who should be directly responsible for it and allowed to drive it while at the dealerships. 

    @ CGX: I don't think the memo was meant to refer to customer cars, but to a demo vehicle which being passed around various dealers for sales promotion purposes. Smiley   I would hope that customer cars would not have been driven at all beyond what was absolutely necessary for unloading, pre-delivery inspection and and hand-over purposes.  

    --

    fritz


    Re: RIP Paul Walker aka Brian O'Connor

    Fritz:  That's great in theory but reality seldom matches theory and cars are sometimes damaged before delivery by overzealous handlers.  The most important takeaway is that this memorandum is absolutely meaningless in any substantive analysis of the Walker incident; the CGT is safe when driven at normal road speeds for the conditions present.  As everyone else has posted, the CGT may be more of a handful at the ultimate limit, a limit that should never be reached on public roads.  


     
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