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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Mission E at entry level Panamera price will destroy Panamera Cayenne and even non EV Macan sales. It wont happen.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I think there is room in this space for an entry-level Mission E and do not see it cannibalizing Cayenne or Macan Sales. The base Macan sells in the mid $50K range. If we use the Panamera pricing as a guideline, we are probably looking at a typical configured Mission E in the low $100s. I think the real opportunity for the Mission E is as an alternative to Tesla Model S & D particularly given Tesla's deteriorating financials. Over time with the increased adoption of EVs, I wouldn't be surprised to see Porsche offering the Panamera in a Hybrid only configuration.  


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    It's clear in what direction things are moving, but the risk is that Porsche is moving too slow. In 2025 there will be extremely low demand for a 100k+ daily driver with a combustion engine. Porsche need to up their game to not be passed by others...

    https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-oliver-blume-ceo-brand-identity-future-strategy-2025-15178.html


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:

    It's clear in what direction things are moving, but the risk is that Porsche is moving too slow. In 2025 there will be extremely low demand for a 100k+ daily driver with a combustion engine. Porsche need to up their game to not be passed by others...

    https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/company/porsche-oliver-blume-ceo-brand-identity-future-strategy-2025-15178.html

    In Germany, Tesla sales have dropped by over 30%...so... Smiley

    I think that even in 2025, there will be demand for 100k+ daily drivers with a combustion engine. 
    Actually, I am worried that Porsche might put their money on the wrong (electric) horse. Thank god, they have other cars (with combustion engine, hybrids) as well.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I think the area for growth will be in Hybrids. My concern is that the automotive manufacturers may be getting ahead of themselves with the introduction of too many EVs into their model lines. I'm not sure the demand is there to support that many brand extensions.  


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bobr:

    I think the area for growth will be in Hybrids. My concern is that the automotive manufacturers may be getting ahead of themselves with the introduction of too many EVs into their model lines. I'm not sure the demand is there to support that many brand extensions.  

    Exactly my point. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    For myself, a complete switch to electric cars would a real tragedy and the end of my life long passion.

    My first word was "auto" (my parents swear by it) and in my mind a car must be with internal combustion engine, can have any add on's , electric or otherwise but still with the typical characteristics (only ICE can rev like it, sound like it and deliver power like it).

     

    Fully electric car, no matter how fast or beautifully made, is just a transportation appliance, on par with a Miele dishwasher or a SubZero refrigerator, IMO.   


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    absent:

    For myself, a complete switch to electric cars would a real tragedy and the end of my life long passion.

    My first word was "auto" (my parents swear by it) and in my mind a car must be with internal combustion engine, can have any add on's , electric or otherwise but still with the typical characteristics (only ICE can rev like it, sound like it and deliver power like it).

     

    Fully electric car, no matter how fast or beautifully made, is just a transportation appliance, on par with a Miele dishwasher or a SubZero refrigerator, IMO.   

    I feel the same. I could imagine getting one if I really don't care about the driving itself anymore and just want to get from point A to point B. Otherwise...no thanks.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I'm hoping that Porsche can deliver on their promise of same performance in their EVs as sports cars. Of course, I'd like to have the same performance capabilities as the 919 EVO in a 911 or 960Smiley  


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bobr:

    I'm hoping that Porsche can deliver on their promise of same performance in their EVs as sports cars. Of course, I'd like to have the same performance capabilities as the 919 EVO in a 911 or 960Smiley  

    Problem will always be weight...among others.

    If Porsche builds an EV 911 with the same performance as the petrol engine 911, I would always choose the petrol engine version, sorry. Unless the EV is 50% cheaper. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Hybrid is a flawed technology that will disappear as fast as the battery technology and charging will evolve. We are only a couple of breakthrough away from EV making combustion and hybrids obsolete (except for a few applications) in a field where billions of dollars are invested in R&D. It is only a matter of time. Porsche and all knows this. The only reason they push hybrid is to create a smooth transition between their combustion engines and full EV. It is pretty clear now that auto manufacturers have purposely held off EV technology to sell more combustion engines and preserve their past R&D but Tesla destroyed their cartel. The same way some still push hybrid vs full EV. If you think different, sorry but you need to put your head out of the sand...

    Let’s put it another way. Before Tesla S almost everyone said an electric car like that was impossible at a decent price, including most people here. Even 5 years ago people said the same about an electric truck... Technology marches on, I understand some people have vested interest to deny the changes and some people have passion for combustion engines (which are not going away, there will always be used cars around and some manufactured as a niche segment), but EV will take over, it is a certainty.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Actually, I think that different sorts of hybrid tech is still at the beginning...we'll see. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Hybrid will only exist in very long haul cars or transports and on extreme performance cars or “vintage” nostalgic cars. Just double the rang of current EV tech and no one needs a combustion engine. Hybrid will only add to cost and weight.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    Hybrid will only exist in very long haul cars or transports and on extreme performance cars or “vintage” nostalgic cars. Just double the rang of current EV tech and no one needs a combustion engine. Hybrid will only add to cost and weight.

    What about the charging infrastructure then? Even in Norway, where EVs are highly popular, the charging infrastructure (and time) is an issue. Another issue is that the moment incentives go, people seem to loose interest in EVs.

    I talk to at least a dozen of people per day about cars, young and old and 99% are not even thinking about getting an EV. Some consider hybrids, some more fuel efficient cars but EVs? Not many. The Diesel seems to be dead though, nobody wants one right now (in Germany). OK, Germans may think differently about cars but right now, I do not see the big EV revolution coming. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    Hybrid is a flawed technology that will disappear as fast as the battery technology and charging will evolve. We are only a couple of breakthrough away from EV making combustion and hybrids obsolete (except for a few applications) in a field where billions of dollars are invested in R&D. It is only a matter of time. Porsche and all knows this. The only reason they push hybrid is to create a smooth transition between their combustion engines and full EV. It is pretty clear now that auto manufacturers have purposely held off EV technology to sell more combustion engines and preserve their past R&D but Tesla destroyed their cartel. The same way some still push hybrid vs full EV. If you think different, sorry but you need to put your head out of the sand...

    Let’s put it another way. Before Tesla S almost everyone said an electric car like that was impossible at a decent price, including most people here. Even 5 years ago people said the same about an electric truck... Technology marches on, I understand some people have vested interest to deny the changes and some people have passion for combustion engines (which are not going away, there will always be used cars around and some manufactured as a niche segment), but EV will take over, it is a certainty.

    Any discussion on EVs and hybrids requires an analysis of the upcoming carbon standards as well as the shift from NEDC to WLTP for type certification.  These changes combined with China mandarin EVs essentially ensures the transition to electric regardless of cost economics.   Tesla is merely ahead of the regulation curve, not the rabbit of competition that the traditional automakers are chasing.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    It doesn't matter if they're talking about them or not. In 10 years soon they'll be the majority of cars that are for sale, thus irrelevant as to whether there is interest in them or not.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    noone1:

    It doesn't matter if they're talking about them or not. In 10 years soon they'll be the majority of cars that are for sale, thus irrelevant as to whether there is interest in them or not.

    I doubt it. The industry builds what people want and buy. Right now, especially in Europe, electricity is expensive, the charging infrastructure basically non-existent and there are no (interesting enough) incentives to get an EV. On the contrary, right now many people are exchanging their Diesel cars for petrol cars, so in 10 years, we are going to drive the same old stuff, at least in Europe. Smiley Tesla sales have dropped by over 30% in Germany (maybe because incentives were gone...they came back now but just for the rudimentary base models).

    It is about money and convenience and right now, EVs suck. At least in most regions on this planet.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Hybrid will only exist in very long haul cars or transports and on extreme performance cars or “vintage” nostalgic cars. Just double the rang of current EV tech and no one needs a combustion engine. Hybrid will only add to cost and weight.

    What about the charging infrastructure then? Even in Norway, where EVs are highly popular, the charging infrastructure (and time) is an issue. Another issue is that the moment incentives go, people seem to loose interest in EVs.

    You need to get your head around that the charging infrastructure is a non issue for most owners. Not everyone can plug-in at home, but a lot of people can. And most people very seldom drive 400km+ albeit on very few occasions per year. If you have charger at home and drive to work and then fly on longer commutes an EV is MORE convenient than a combustion engine car. For all people in this target group, it is a no brainer.

    The few times per year when going on longer commutes it is fine to stop each 3 hours and charge for 20-30 minutes. It's really rather nice and most people find that relaxing and adds something to the experience. I've done it myself many many times and it works really well and it's just getting better from here.

    I talk to at least a dozen of people per day about cars, young and old and 99% are not even thinking about getting an EV. Some consider hybrids, some more fuel efficient cars but EVs? Not many. The Diesel seems to be dead though, nobody wants one right now (in Germany).

    Strange. But probably a German thing since the local brands doesn't have that much to offer yet. When people get the hang of it like in Norway, people will start to realize all benefits and cars with combustion engine will get less and less popular.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    It won't make economic sense for European car manufacturers to try and stay ICE when the ROW goes to EV. Europe will simply have to adapt and build the infrastructure to support the new normal.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Sorry but I just don't see the benefits of EVs... yes They sound bad, range is very limited (not the biggest problem in my opinion), charging time sucks big time and performance is flawed since they go fast straight line but otherwise...

    I am a car nut and a gadget lover but EVs don't attract me a bit. Zero. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    noone1:

    It doesn't matter if they're talking about them or not. In 10 years soon they'll be the majority of cars that are for sale, thus irrelevant as to whether there is interest in them or not.

    I doubt it. The industry builds what people want and buy. Right now, especially in Europe, electricity is expensive, the charging infrastructure basically non-existent and there are no (interesting enough) incentives to get an EV. On the contrary, right now many people are exchanging their Diesel cars for petrol cars, so in 10 years, we are going to drive the same old stuff, at least in Europe. Smiley Tesla sales have dropped by over 30% in Germany (maybe because incentives were gone...they came back now but just for the rudimentary base models).

    It is about money and convenience and right now, EVs suck. At least in most regions on this planet.

    People buy what is available. EVs are not available from the German brands yet, because they don't want to push them right now only for economic reasons. Car dealerships focus on the negative aspects of EVs and this is the story they tell their customers.

    When Tesla 3 comes to Europe it will sell like hot cakes. Just wait and see. It will happen.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    noone1:

    It won't make economic sense for European car manufacturers to try and stay ICE when the ROW goes to EV. Europe will simply have to adapt and build the infrastructure to support the new normal.

    ROW is not the US or China. Smiley Smiley Also, China has a long way to go and if they subsidize electricity cost and whatnot, it won't be comparable. European manufacturers can build EVs for the US and China but in Europe, it will take more than a decade to change things. Unless manufacturers and governments start to subsidize a switch, this is a different story. Not going to happen though in my opinion, not now.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    How do you know what is capable with EVs if there are no EV sport cars? 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:
    RC:
    noone1:

    It doesn't matter if they're talking about them or not. In 10 years soon they'll be the majority of cars that are for sale, thus irrelevant as to whether there is interest in them or not.

    I doubt it. The industry builds what people want and buy. Right now, especially in Europe, electricity is expensive, the charging infrastructure basically non-existent and there are no (interesting enough) incentives to get an EV. On the contrary, right now many people are exchanging their Diesel cars for petrol cars, so in 10 years, we are going to drive the same old stuff, at least in Europe. Smiley Tesla sales have dropped by over 30% in Germany (maybe because incentives were gone...they came back now but just for the rudimentary base models).

    It is about money and convenience and right now, EVs suck. At least in most regions on this planet.

    People buy what is available. EVs are not available from the German brands yet, because they don't want to push them right now only for economic reasons. Car dealerships focus on the negative aspects of EVs and this is the story they tell their customers.

    When Tesla 3 comes to Europe it will sell like hot cakes. Just wait and see. It will happen.

    Yeah, same as other EVs in Germany. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:

    Sorry but I just don't see the benefits of EVs... yes They sound bad, range is very limited (not the biggest problem in my opinion), charging time sucks big time and performance is flawed since they go fast straight line but otherwise...

    I am a car nut and a gadget lover but EVs don't attract me a bit. Zero. 

    You need to separate YOUR view of things when we speak about general market trends. I can't understand why this is so difficult for you? You do realize that people with your passion for combustion engined cars and engine sound is a very little tiny part of the market?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    noone1:

    How do you know what is capable with EVs if there are no EV sport cars? 

    I would never buy an EV sportscar because it sounds like crap. Even if it goes 0-300 kph in five seconds. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Dude, you've owned maybe one good sounding car in your entire life -- your current R8. You've been driving shitty sounding Porsches since I can remember...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lukestern:
    RC:

    Sorry but I just don't see the benefits of EVs... yes They sound bad, range is very limited (not the biggest problem in my opinion), charging time sucks big time and performance is flawed since they go fast straight line but otherwise...

    I am a car nut and a gadget lover but EVs don't attract me a bit. Zero. 

    You need to separate YOUR view of things when we speak about general market trends. I can't understand why this is so difficult for you? You do realize that people with your passion for combustion engined cars and engine sound is a very little tiny part of the market?

    Everything is about money and convenience. Right now, EVs cannot compete in both domains. Period.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    noone1:

    How do you know what is capable with EVs if there are no EV sport cars? 

    I would never buy an EV sportscar because it sounds like crap. Even if it goes 0-300 kph in five seconds. Smiley

    You will RC. You just don't know it yet. When you try one out in a few years you'll get converted Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    lukestern:
    RC:

    Sorry but I just don't see the benefits of EVs... yes They sound bad, range is very limited (not the biggest problem in my opinion), charging time sucks big time and performance is flawed since they go fast straight line but otherwise...

    I am a car nut and a gadget lover but EVs don't attract me a bit. Zero. 

    You need to separate YOUR view of things when we speak about general market trends. I can't understand why this is so difficult for you? You do realize that people with your passion for combustion engined cars and engine sound is a very little tiny part of the market?

    Everything is about money and convenience. Right now, EVs cannot compete in both domains. Period.

    It can. For many people a Tesla is more convenient and a more appealing proposition than a Panamera Petrol for instance. And this is for both economic and convenience perspectives.

    The transition has started and it will move quick from here. Quicker than most people can imagine... Porsche seems to understand, but they probably underestimate the demand for Mission-E and it's derivates. It will sell more than they can produce.


     
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