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    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    IMO the current 911 racer has reached its limit of chassis and engine development in the present configuration. The next generation of 911s will be more "mid-engined" and better aerodynamically and this will help on the track too. However, it is at least 3 years away and Porsche will either have to practically take break (unlikely) or build a racing car on the forthcoming Cayman RS. They can still use the current 911 platform for selected events so as not interrupt the long line going back to the 60s.

    Nevertheless, even this year 911s have won the LMS driver's title the ALMS manufacturers' title and most probably the drivers' too in the last race, various FIA GT events, VLN races etc etc. Porsche's record with the 996/997 racers in unparalleled. Sure Ferrari, BMW and various others have enjoyed some success in the GT class at times but the Porsche RSR is the car with most class wins and titles, even overall wins in some events (I readily remember Daytona 24  and Spa 24 Hrs in 2003)


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    I think your right about the 997 RSR being close to, or at the end of its development potential. I'm not sure I can see Porsche making the 998 more of a mid-engined car. 911 purists would scream and this group is very important to them. I may however see a 911 track version with it's engine more optimally placed. If they want to be competitive they are going to have to change some of their ideas. The big problem is that this won't happen anytime in the immediate future. 

     

    Smiley


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    917962:

    I think your right about the 997 RSR being close to, or at the end of its development potential. I'm not sure I can see Porsche making the 998 more of a mid-engined car. 911 purists would scream and this group is very important to them. I may however see a 911 track version with it's engine more optimally placed. If they want to be competitive they are going to have to change some of their ideas. The big problem is that this won't happen anytime in the immediate future. 

     

    Smiley

    The rumour is that the engine on the 998 (or 991) will be further front for better weight distribution. This doesn't mean that the car will stop to be rear engined,so traditionalists will be happy too. Similarly a front engined car with its engine further back is still a front engined car.

    In the production classes, race cars have to be based on the road cars so having an appropriate base is crucial. I'm not sure a manufacturer can relocate the engine on its race car and not on the production car on which the race car is based.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    I too have heard mention that the 991's engine will be moved farther forward and was only making a generalization. I guess what I was trying to say is that Porsche won't go too far because 911 fans appreciate the car for what it is and the personality that it exhibits.

    You are correct in that production class racing, as far as I know won't allow the engine to be moved. It was more wishful thinking on my part, kind of like there being another 935 that could be raced in the defunct GT1 class.


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    I think we have consensus around Porsche developing a new generation of 911RSRs. Let's hope they do not wait to the release of the next generation - 998.  Perhaps they will use more of the technology developed in the RS Spyder program to enhance the 911RSR.


    --
    2006 987S, Artic Silver, Cocoa, Cocoa Top 2006 Cayenne S Lapis Blue New York

    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    Engines can be moved if a waver is obtained from the ACO. (BMW for example).

    However, this "waver" would not likely be given in Porsche's case; neither would Porsche request it, as this goes against is philosophy (and marketing).


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    reginos:

    Nevertheless, even this year 911s have won the LMS driver's title the ALMS manufacturers' title and most probably the drivers' too in the last race, various FIA GT events, VLN races etc etc. Porsche's record with the 996/997 racers in unparalleled. Sure Ferrari, BMW and various others have enjoyed some success in the GT class at times but the Porsche RSR is the car with most class wins and titles, even overall wins in some events (I readily remember Daytona 24  and Spa 24 Hrs in 2003)

     

     

    No the most sucesfull gt2 race car in the last incarnation is the 430 gt2

    The folowing races are where both ferrari and porsche had Factory drivers present with works teams.

    It has 2-3 fia gt championships(2Driver, 2Team,3Manu)

    it has 2-3 LMS championships (2Drver, 2Team and 3Manu)

    It has only one ALMS championship 2007

    It won 2 LeMans, 2 Sebrings, 2 24h spa, and 2 Pettits

    Ferrari has won >2/3 of all races it raced against porsche in (Fia Gt, ALMS, LMS, combined)

     

    Porsche 997 RSR won 0 Fia gt chanpionships (it is fighting for Driveer and Team this year)

    1 Lms Championship(1Teams,1Drivers) this year

    probably 2 ALMS(2*Drivers, 2*Manuf, 2*Teams) including this years

    only 1 Le mans, 1 Sebring, 1 24 Spa, and 1 pettit, last endurance classic won by the 997 rsr was in march 2008 Sebring


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    I mentioned the 996/997 GT3 racing models, i.e. race successes since the advent of the 996 GT3 R in 1999. The 430GT2 came in 2006 to replace the 360GTC so its spell has been much shorter, so far.

    From what I understand Porsche AG don't focus on the FIA GT, judging from the fact that only LMS, ALMS and Grand -Am series are featured on their Motorsport Website. I am not sure why!


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

     

    2009 Schedule

    Round  Date  Series  Event  1st  2nd  3rd 
    1 21st March ALMS Sebring, USA Ferrari Ferrari Panoz
    2 4th April ALMS St Petersburg, USA Porsche BMW Panoz
    3 5th April LMS Catalunya, Spain Porsche Ferrari Ferrari
    4 18th April ALMS Long Beach, USA Porsche Ferrari BMW
    5 18th April GT Open Imola, Italy Ferrari Porsche Porsche
    6 19th April GT Open Imola, Italy Ferrari Ferrari Porsche
    7 3rd May FIA GT Silverstone, Great Britain Porsche Ferrari Ferrari
    8 10th May LMS Spa, Belgium Porsche Ferrari Ferrari
    9 16th May FIA GT Adria, Italy Porsche Ferrari Ferrari
    10 16th May GT Open Portimão, Portugal Porsche Ferrari Ferrari
    11 17th May GT Open Portimão, Portugal Ferrari Porsche Ferrari
    12 17th May ALMS Miller Motorsports Park, USA Porsche Porsche Ferrari
    13 13th/14th June Le Mans Le Mans, France Ferrari Ferrari Ferrari
    14 21st June FIA GT Oschersleben, Germany Ferrari Porsche Aston Martin
    15 27th June GT Open Spa, Belgium Porsche Porsche Ferrari
    16 28th June GT Open Spa, Belgium Porsche Ferrari Porsche
    17 4th July GT Open Donington, Great Britain Porsche Porsche Ferrari
    18 5th July GT Open Donington, Great Britain Porsche Ferrari Porsche
    19 18th July ALMS Lime Rock Park, USA Porsche Ferrari BMW
    20 26th July FIA GT Spa, Belgium Ferrari Porsche Ferrari
    21 2nd August LMS Portimão, Portugal Ferrari Porsche Ferrari
    22 8th August ALMS Mid-Ohio, USA Porsche Corvette BMW
    23 16th August ALMS Road America, USA BMW BMW Corvette
    24 23th August LMS Nürburgring, Germany Porsche Spyker Ferrari
    25 30th August FIA GT Hungaroring, Hungary Porsche Ferrari Ferrari
    26 30th August ALMS Mosport, Canada Corvette Ferrari Corvette
    27 13th September LMS Silverstone, Great Britain Ferrari Spyker Porsche
    28 19th September GT Open Magny-cours, France Ferrari Porsche Porsche
    29 20th September GT Open Magny-cours, France Porsche Porsche Ferrari
    30 20th September FIA GT Portimão, Portugal Ferrari Porsche Ferrari
    31 26th September ALMS Road Atlanta, USA Ferrari BMW Porsche
    32 3rd October GT Open Monza, Italy      
    33 4th October GT Open Monza, Italy      
    34 4th October FIA GT Paul Ricard, France      
    35 10th October ALMS Laguna Seca, USA      
    36 25th October FIA GT Zolder, Belgium      
    37 24th October GT Open Catalunya, Spain      
    38 25th October GT Open Catalunya, Spain      
    39 30th October Asian LMS Okayama, Japan      
    40 1st November Asian LMS Okayama, Japan      
    41 21st November GT Open Losail, Qatar      
    42 22nd November GT Open Losail, Qata      

    Points system
    1st = 4 points
    2nd = 2 points
    3rd = 1 point

    Sebring 12 Hours, Le Mans 24 Hours and Spa 24 Hours double points.

    Standings after round 31

    Manufacturer  Points 
    1 Ferrari 110
    2 Porsche 99
    3 BMW 13
    4 Corvette 8
    5 Spyker 5
    5 Panoz 3
    7 Aston Martin 1



    Porsche vs Ferrari battle after round 31

    Porsche  Ferrari 
    18 13

     

    Judge for yourselves from a challenge that was set up on another forum that both arakis and I participate.

     


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    The statment I was refering to was about the RSR vs 430 witch have been raceing since 2007 and not since 2009, in 2009, porsche was the car to beat speed vise, but it lost all the great races SPA LE mans, Sebring and Pettit, and it aahas nowere neer dominated any championships like ferrari did in 2007, 10/10 races in Fia gt, 8/10 short races in ALMs, and 4/5 races in the ALMS,


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    Spyderidol:

    Engines can be moved if a waver is obtained from the ACO. (BMW for example).

    However, this "waver" would not likely be given in Porsche's case; neither would Porsche request it, as this goes against is philosophy (and marketing).

     

    Oh you mean just like it went against their philosopfy to cheat this year with the engine liners, witch they have now requested and use  a waver for,


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    arakis:
    Spyderidol:

    Engines can be moved if a waver is obtained from the ACO. (BMW for example).

    However, this "waver" would not likely be given in Porsche's case; neither would Porsche request it, as this goes against is philosophy (and marketing).

     

    Oh you mean just like it went against their philosopfy to cheat this year with the engine liners, witch they have now requested and use  a waver for,

    A waiver for moving the engine - That is what we were discussing!


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    arakis:

    The statment I was refering to was about the RSR vs 430 witch have been raceing since 2007 and not since 2009, in 2009, porsche was the car to beat speed vise, but it lost all the great races SPA LE mans, Sebring and Pettit, and it aahas nowere neer dominated any championships like ferrari did in 2007, 10/10 races in Fia gt, 8/10 short races in ALMs, and 4/5 races in the ALMS,

    In 2007 Porsche Motorsport was focused on the RS Spyder program.

     

     


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    Mr. Tifosi, aka arakis, it seems that we have hit a nerve.

    Shall we thumb wrestle to resolve this?


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    Spyderidol:

    Engines can be moved if a waver is obtained from the ACO. (BMW for example).

    However, this "waver" would not likely be given in Porsche's case; neither would Porsche request it, as this goes against is philosophy (and marketing).

    I would expect Porsche to introduce a different engine placement with the 997´s successor, not sooner. I do not buy into the theory that the 997 is at its limit so far, there have been other reasons for lacking competitiveness at the beginning of the model´s racing career and, in my eyes, there are still different reasons right now.

     

    arakis:

     

    Oh you mean just like it went against their philosopfy to cheat this year with the engine liners, witch they have now requested and use a waver for

    Porsche used steel liners since 2007 and nobody complained, it started when the RSR became successful again.

    It´s not forbidden to use liners of different material but one has to request a waiver in case. That´s what Porsche missed out on.


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    thats just a nice way of saying they cheated............

    as for the 2007 being concentrated on the rs spyder, and whar was feerrari concentrating on GT,2, I think it was the f1, wich consumes alot more resorses then Lmp2 car

     

    so can anyone wxplain how the engine can be moved further to the front, when it is now movd all the way to the diferential, and it cant go over it and stay a rear engined car


    Re: Who can't wait for Petit Le Mans this weekend?

    Read the posts carefully Arakis! No one is saying that they are going to move the engine in the 997.

    In 2007 Porsche was an independent company, and the proportionally, the burden of a P2 car (that often trounced P1 cars) was immense.


     
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