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    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Overall I find that cars in general are becoming more global and less national in character.  My father had a series of "second cars", Renault, Peugot, Fiat, and finally Mercedes and Porsche in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Each of these cars has its own character which reflected in part the character of the nations themselves.  Mercedes and Porsches were spartan, quietly masculine, and purposeful. Nothing more than what was needed, nothing less than what was "correct". The curent 991 seems to be, iMHO, a last gasp of the old as Porsche heads toward the future with its globalized and emerging markets. Mercedes and BMW have gone in that direction years ago assimilating themselves w/ Lexus and Infiniti while Koreans emulate them. Michael Mauer's interview w/ Pete Stout in the current Excellence is an interesting read in this regard.  I'm certain my view is not well received on these pages, but it has become difficult for me to view these new generations of German cars as what I had come to expect from German automobile manufacturers. 


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    ++1
    --

    2006 997 C2S Cab, Triple Black,  2006 Cayenne Titanium Iceland Silver Metalic New York


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Thoughtful post, Dave--thanks.  I will add some thoughts from my perspective as a Porsche, Mercedes and Ferrari owner since the 1960's.  ( I currently own a 2009 Cayenne Turbo S, a 1961 Super 90 Roadster and an original 1963 Coupe.  Over the years I have owned a Ferrari Daytona and miscellaneous Audis, Acuras, etc. 

    I owned six new Porsches from1966 through 1980, culminating with a 1976 turbo.  They were all wonderful cars, but handling was treacherous and high speed was scary as Hell, with the front end getting lighter and less controllable as speed rose.  When I compare those cars to the recent Porsches I have owned, the old ones seem truly dangerous and old fashioned.  Sure the steering had a lot of feel to it, but on reflection what I then thought was fun was just plain dangerous and unsophisticated. 

    And while I might agree somewhat with your globalization view, I will say that Porsches to me still very much retain their Germanic character.  Masculine, purposeful, no frills, powerful, even a bit menacing.  When I lived in France and saw occasional Porsches, this Germanic character was pronouced and evident.  Now in the U.S., I still think the Porsche look and character remains unique.

    I have not driven a new 991, but from what I have seen (extensively at Frankfurt) and read, the new car is major improvement overall.  As regards the steering, it could not be that bad with the Nurburgring times that are being reported. 

    Years ago I was on a panel with Peter Gregg, the fine Porsche racer in the 1960s and 70s.  Someone from the audience was hounding him about how the 356 race cars were more fun and Porsche-like than the the 911 variants.  He politely answered the questioner by pointing out he could lap a course fully 10 seconds faster in the 911. 


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Wonderbar:
    I have not driven a new 991, but from what I have seen (extensively at Frankfurt) and read, the new car is major improvement overall.  As regards the steering, it could not be that bad with the Nurburgring times that are being reported. 

    Years ago I was on a panel with Peter Gregg, the fine Porsche racer in the 1960s and 70s.  Someone from the audience was hounding him about how the 356 race cars were more fun and Porsche-like than the the 911 variants.  He politely answered the questioner by pointing out he could lap a course fully 10 seconds faster in the 911. 

    As most of us are not professional race drivers (like Peter Gregg), I think we are looking for a car that will bring the most driving pleasure.  The fastest car is not always the most fun and involving to drive (but sometimes it is).  The fastest street-legal cars (around a road course) are something like a Radical SR8.  Their laptimes would embarass a 991.  That does not mean they are the best choice for all of us.

    A 911 has always brought a particular set of qualities that include incredible steering feel, the rear-engined handling challenge which is incredibly satisfiying once learned, a modicum of comfort and storage when touring long distances, and above all, an extremely strong  connection and communication between machine and driver.

    There are other fast (and faster) cars, but there is only one 911.

    Someone once said that it's not how fast you go, but how you go fast.Smiley


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    wink

    No that there is no substitute, but there aren't many.


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    As Porsche enthusiasts, we can all be grateful that over the years we have had, and will have, so many choices of 911s to drive and enjoy...


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Wonderbar:

    As Porsche enthusiasts, we can all be grateful that over the years we have had, and will have, so many choices of 911s to drive and enjoy...

    Indeed!Smiley


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Evo's first drive (I hesitate to call it a review):

    http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/275107/driven_allnew_porsche_911_carrera_s.html

    And the all important review of the steering:

    "...Porsche is trying out several new technologies aimed at saving fuel, including its first use of electric power steering. This risky dalliance with a known buzz-kill uses a rack-mounted motor and extensive control logic to filter out unwanted 'noise' through the steering while preserving what's we're told is 'useful' feedback."

    "The steering is indeed more filtered, with most of the hyper-organic jiggles and tugging tossed out. There's still a progressive ramp-up in steering effort that feels natural enough for a car that sells mainly to older folk who aren’t cross-shopping an Exige."

    Talk about damning with faint praise

     


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Nurburging official time: 7:40

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZFVcnh2ApA

    wink


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S...

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    GR:

    Evo's first drive (I hesitate to call it a review):

    http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/275107/driven_allnew_porsche_911_carrera_s.html

    And the all important review of the steering:

    "...Porsche is trying out several new technologies aimed at saving fuel, including its first use of electric power steering. This risky dalliance with a known buzz-kill uses a rack-mounted motor and extensive control logic to filter out unwanted 'noise' through the steering while preserving what's we're told is 'useful' feedback."

    "The steering is indeed more filtered, with most of the hyper-organic jiggles and tugging tossed out. There's still a progressive ramp-up in steering effort that feels natural enough for a car that sells mainly to older folk who aren’t cross-shopping an Exige."

    Talk about damning with faint praise

     

    A remarkably unemotional review, all the more remarkable coming from Evo...

    Notable quotes for me, in addition to the one above: "Some of the old 911's intimacy is lost, but road noise drops considerably inside (at 80 mph you can hear the Sport Chrono clock ticking, for example) and functionality and comfort both rise"  Mmmm.  That's interesting...

    and:

    "It’ll be interesting to see how this luxed-up enviro-911 morphs into a GT3, or even a GT2. Assuming such things aren’t banned in the coming years."

    ...which ending the piece, gives the whole review a sense of bitter resignation..?


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S...

    Smiley SmileySmiley

     Still not sure if the 991 rear is any better than the 997.2. Rear lights look tooo thin now. Have to wait to see it in the flesh.


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Another iffy one...interesting points about the GTS intake manifold improvements not included, hinting at a later powerpack option.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-porsche-911-carrera-s-first-drive-review

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S -- First Drive by Car and Driver...

    Less a 911 and more just a really nice sports car with an engine in the trunk...

    Longer, lower, wider, faster, more fuel efficient, and—amazingly—slightly lighter, according to the company, the new Porsche 911 Carrera is a better car in every way. Which means it’s less like a Porsche 911 than ever, because let’s face it, much of what made the model an icon have been its eccentricities.

    Up until the late 1990s, mastering a 911 was lion tamer’s work. The 996 and 997 generations greatly improved drivability, and the lion has been thoroughly tamed with the 2012 redesign. Anybody who draws breath and has the dough (China is rapidly filling up with candidates) can safely cuddle up with this cushy kitty. The wheelbase is stretched, the front track is wider, and the rear-biased weight split is claimed to be closer to equalization—all of which promotes on-road stability and reduces the midcorner bounding and corner-exit steering washout that make older 911s so, er, thrilling. The electronic suspension devices and the traction-control systems are more capable, making the steering response even snappier and the car more eager to go where you point it.

    Carrer-amera?

    Granted, the only version provided for our drive was a 3.8-liter Carrera S with the optional Sport Chrono package. So equipped, it includes Porsche’s dynamic engine mounts, which we’ve often praised for helping settle the car down over pitching pavement. All comments should thus be so flagged. But whatever version you drive, the car feels big. When did the 911 get to be the same length as an Audi A6? It’s not actually that large, but it seems it. Dare we call it the Carrer-amera?

    Yes, we dare. The influence of the Panamera is obvious once you crack open the doors and see that long ski slope of a center console studded with buttons. Porsches used to have nothing but a shifter and air between the seats, which emphasized the fact that the oily bits were out back. Porsche design director Michael Mauer says the 911 is the source for all Porsche brand styling, but in this case, it looks as though the company’s big, front-engined limo—and strategic cost-saving component sharing—had a say.

    By the way, for decades Porsche has given all its projects an internal number starting with “9,” and it’s now running out of numbers. We were told at the lavish international launch in Santa Barbara, California—where a blue-sky budget included grinding and resurfacing an old weather-beaten airport apron to serve as an autocross course—that the new 911’s 991 project code was selected simply because it was still available. In the future, Porsche plans to start mixing in letters to get codes like 9A1, the designation for the new family of direct-injection boxer engines.

    Haven’t We Seen You Before? Of Course We Have

    Meanwhile, the rest of the new Carrera looks every inch a 911, if for no other reason than customers expect it to be so. The differences live in the details: the roof and the front fender humps—the latter capped by domed headlamps—are lower and give the car a wider, more-limpet-like road stance. The red-dagger taillamps live under a furrowed brow running around the back; Mauer says this look eventually will migrate to all Porsches.

    Using the driver’s hip point as a reference for the change in wheelbase, the front axle moves forward by 1.2 inches, and the rear moves aft by just under three. The overhangs have been reduced, so the body is 2.2 inches longer overall. The windshield center point moves about three inches forward, but the glass has more curve to it and wraps around to A-pillars that have moved hardly at all.

    Nothing carries over from the 997’s body shell, which employed far less aluminum in its construction. In contrast, the lighter material comprises about 45 percent of the new car’s shell, including the floor, roof, doors, and all structural and exterior sheetmetal forward of the windshield. Steel is limited mainly to the piece that forms the rear quarter-panels and door frames. It is a complex single part that requires seven separate stampings and that Porsche’s stamping supplier said was too deeply curved to form from aluminum. We’re estimating curb weights will be about 3250 pounds for the Carrera and 3350 for Carrera S, or basically the same as before. (For its part, Porsche says the S weighs about 10 fewer pounds.)

    This is the enviro 911, the press kit for which touts not the new power figures (350 hp for the Carrera and 400 hp for the S, increases of 5 and 15) but the potential fuel saving from each engine technology. An idle stop/start system that buyers can disable if they want saves up to 1.5 mpg, for example. An alternator that charges at a higher rate on deceleration: 0.4 mpg. A coast-down function that, in cars equipped with the PDK twin-clutch gearbox, automatically decouples the engine in some deceleration scenarios and lets it drop to idle could save a maximum of 2.5 mpg. The final EPA window-sticker numbers won’t be released until early December, but city and highway mileage will probably rise 1 to 2 mpg for the Carrera and Carrera S depending on the transmission.

    Porsche had no base Carreras on hand with the direct-injection 3.4-liter flat-six—a de-stroked version of the current 3.6-liter. The S’s 3.8-liter is changed only in details mainly having to do with the injectors, intake manifold, and exhaust. All the fancy sand-cast cylinder heads and the intake manifolds with individual throttle butterflies for each cylinder—features of the outgoing GTS—are left off at the 991’s launch, perhaps to be reintroduced later as optional Power Pack upgrades.

    Although the point at which peak torque becomes available rises in both the 3.4 and 3.8 by 1200 rpm, to 5600, the 3.8 we sampled behaves about the same as before in both performance and sound. The latter, incidentally, is augmented by a new “Sound Symposer” somewhat similar to the sound tube used in the current BMW Z4. An acoustic tube runs from the intake pipe to the rear parcel shelf and has a simple membrane in it that vibrates in concert with intake pulses. The membrane merely amplifies these pulses for the cabin, and a valve in the intake activates the Symposer when you push the standard Sport button. It does indeed wake up the engine’s voice, while the new Carrera’s improved sound insulation more effectively dampens road noise.

    The pair of seven-speed transmissions, manual and dual-clutch PDK, share internal components and basic dimensions but have different cases and different ratios on third (lower on PDK) and seventh (taller on PDK). The seven-speed manual shift pattern is that of a six-speed but with the seventh forward gear up and to the right; it is of no use beyond its function as a tall, fuel-saving ratio for highway cruising. The gates are very tightly spaced way over there, so Porsche blocks out seventh electronically unless you first select fifth or sixth. People will reflexively complain about electro-nanny tyranny, and some forum poster somewhere will surely tell you how to disable the lockout, but that would be silly.


    That’s because, unlike GM’s one-to-four skip-shift, which exists solely to help the car’s fuel-economy test numbers, this lockout is for driver convenience. Porsche found in testing that it was far too easy to accidentally select seventh when you’re intending to upshift into fifth. As soon as you get fifth, the lockout deactivates. After probing its function a few times, we ceased to notice it. The Carrera S still accelerates up hills in seventh, but the base Carrera probably won’t do so much quicker than water.

    Say “Hello” to Electric Steering

    Notable chassis changes include Porsche’s first use of electric power steering, plus an electro-hydraulic anti-roll system that varies the front and rear anti-roll-bar rates by using small, expandable cylinders as linkages between the roll bars and the hubs. Go through a right bend, and the left cylinders expand to increase the roll stiffness. The goal is to make the steering quicker by cutting the amount of slump to the outside before the car changes direction. The Carrera still does roll a bit, which preserves a natural feel.

    There’s also a “torque-vectoring” system—optional on Carrera models, standard on the S—that activates the inside rear brake to help yaw the car into corners for more reactive turn-in. It works in concert with a locking differential, which is mechanical on manual models and electronic with PDK. The S we drove around the autocross course has a new, pronounced lift-throttle turn-in to the chassis that gets it pointed into the apex better.


    The electric steering, adopted because it saves fuel over an engine-driven hydraulic pump, is more controversial. Usually such systems deaden the feel compared to hydraulic units. Porsche says its system is carefully designed to filter out everything except “useful” information, which it defines as cornering forces and pitching surfaces, but not bump-shocks and jiggling from rough surfaces. The 911 purists will complain, of course, because some of the life has been squeezed out. This includes the weird on-center slackness and the sudden wheel spasms that occur when older Carreras tromp over rough patches, especially while the front axle is lightly loaded under acceleration and the front tires buck at will.

    Porsche’s attitude is that it is merely cleaning up flaws with the new car, but a lot of people like the character imparted by the old flaws. The 991’s wheel drives a smooth, precise rack that delivers instant helm response and a solid connection to the road, if not every single whisper of information that could possibly be transmitted. With this quick experience, it seems good, especially if you’re getting older. We’ll need to wait and see if we feel the same after longer exposure.

    Dealerships will open their doors to 991 buyers in the U.S. on February 4, with base prices set at $83,050 for the base 350-hp Carrera and $97,350 for the 400-hp Carrera S. That’s a jump, but navigation is now standard across the board, so the comparable price rise is just over 1 percent. Porsche is only showing the rear-drive coupes as yet, but there were more than 20 variants of the previous 997-gen 911. And with all-wheel-drive, Turbos, convertibles, Speedsters, and GT-whatevers still coming down the pike, expect more news soon.

    Meanwhile, the new Carrera is more comfortable and transits quickly, more securely, and with less of the white-knuckle body heaving and tail twitching that has long defined the 911’s unique character. Porschephiles may have been wondering at what point their beloved 911 ceases to be a 911 and becomes just a good sports car with an engine in the trunk. That day may have arrived...

    What Hatz Told Us: The Secret Details of the New 991 Porsche 911

    We went to witness the unveiling of the 991-generation 2012 911 at the Porsche Museum in Zuffenhausen, Germany. Against a backdrop of Porsche’s most significant racing cars and design studies—Le Mans–winning 917, the 001, a 956 mounted on the ceiling; y’know, the usual—Michael Mauer, the brand’s head designer, and Wolfgang Hatz, executive vice president of research and design, pulled the silk off what is, in person, an exceptionally well-realized if larger new 911.

    We got the press materials and the official photos, already posted here, and then we pulled Hatz aside for the stuff they didn’t print in the car’s kit. Here is what he told us:

    • The new seven-speed manual, confirmation of which we broke two months ago, will have a fairly conventional shift pattern: Reverse is up and to the left, gears one through six in a conventional three-up/three-down arrangement, and seventh up and to the right. There’s a lockout on seventh gear unless you’re in fifth or sixth, so no 4-7 shifts are permitted in the manual.
    • The new gearbox is compact—both the PDK and the manual use the same housing and most of their internals save the second clutch and third and seventh gears—and would leave enough room for extra cylinders. “A flat-eight will fit,” he said. (We’ll have an in-depth tech feature on the seven-speed manual gearbox soon.)
    • There’s also been much talk about the hybrid version of this car. Hatz was a bit cagey on this topic—not necessarily on the “ifs” but the “hows.” He merely said the 911 would need a hybrid system that suited the car’s character. When it was suggested to him that the electric front axle from the 918 would fit and would scale to other cars in the lineup, he nodded sagely.
    • There will not be a four-cylinder version of the 911, even though there is precedent and the environmental pressure is on. “I don’t want a turbocharged base model,” Hatz told us. “I love the character of the naturally aspirated engines.”
    • And, when asked the perennial question about how the 911 would make its way in a Porsche landscape inhabited by a new and improved Cayman on the bottom end and the rumored-and-very-likely Panamera coupe on the GT end, Hatz replied: “We have a lot of plans for this 911. It has a bright future. The 911 derivatives will increase.”

    What Hatz Told Us -- Car and Driver -- Blog Link

    2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S -- Car and Driver -- Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Ouch. You know, what strikes me here is that this reads less like someone who actually drove the car -- notice the only mention of anything involving driving is the 7th gear lockout experience? -- and more like someone who took everything that had been written before and synthesized it into something that covered all the bases. Several of the clever phrases sound very familiar, particularly the first couple of sentences.yes

     


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    So far so good...but what about the 991 Carrera (non S version)...I havent read anything regarding the 3.4l engine.....Its a bit fustrating not reading any reviews from the basic new Carrera !!!


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Good question. I think the press launch in Santa Maria, California, was just Carrera S with all the performance goodies.


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    This series of photos two pages back are from the press launch in Santa Maria and I don't see any non-S models (I was not there so if anyone else was, please correct me if I'm wrong).

    in_progress__driving_the_new_911_1_big.jpg


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvInATRIDOI

    wink


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    There are no base Carrera models at this event according to people who have been to see the cars at the hotel where they are being stored overnight.

    Some more pics taken at the hotel in the service/cleaning area.

    13212240082444.JPG

    132122409451610.JPG

    13212241684681.JPG

     

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I might change my opder from agate grey/espresso to black/beige.  The black 991 just looks stunning.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Another pic of the agate/pebble bicolour interior.

    13212603430525.JPG


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Very nice combination!


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    very nice - but on the long run it will look very dirty.....


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    BjoernB:

    very nice - but on the long run it will look very dirty.....

     

    Not if you treat it with G techniq's Leather Guard. I used this product to treat the pale cream leather on my mother's X1 nearly two years ago and it has kept it looking virtually like new.

    http://gtechniq.com/shop/3s-for-cars/interior-coatings/l1-leather-guard/


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    maybe there is new stuff around - but onBMW's and now the Mercedes Designo Leather no matter what I used - bright leather turned rather quickly darker - worst culprit are new jeans..... - maybe I have to try new things....


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I like how Wolfgang Hatz, executive vice president of research and design said that with the new transmissions a Flat-8 WILL fit, not, MAY fit!

    5.0 ltr. Flat-8 GT3 RS with 600 bhp anyone? (3.8 / 6 * 8 & 450bhp bumped by the same increase in volume...)


    --
    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    It's fantastic!!!


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Mithras:

    I like how Wolfgang Hatz, executive vice president of research and design said that with the new transmissions a Flat-8 WILL fit, not, MAY fit!

    5.0 ltr. Flat-8 GT3 RS with 600 bhp anyone? (3.8 / 6 * 8 & 450bhp bumped by the same increase in volume...)

    If it comes, it will most likely be a 4.5L. This will put on par with the 458 (for GTE) and so (in theory) will have the same air restrictors.

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Spyderidol:
    Mithras:

    I like how Wolfgang Hatz, executive vice president of research and design said that with the new transmissions a Flat-8 WILL fit, not, MAY fit!

    5.0 ltr. Flat-8 GT3 RS with 600 bhp anyone? (3.8 / 6 * 8 & 450bhp bumped by the same increase in volume...)

    If it comes, it will most likely be a 4.5L. This will put on par with the 458 (for GTE) and so (in theory) will have the same air restrictors.

     

    which would put it at between 532-562 bhp (450 for the 3.8RS & 500 for the 4.0RS). That would make sense, 540-550ish bhp for the top of the line normally asperated 991 and the ability to make a larger bore/stroke 5-5.2 ltr Flat-8 for a new model between the 991 & 918 with something around 600-650 bhp.


    --
    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

     
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