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    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    He thinks he has an answer and reply for everything.  It's all irrelevant as Tesla is facing unparalleled competition in the marketplace that it has never faced before.  This is a game of attrition and Tesla is not the longterm winner.  

    Unless Tesla decides to ally themselves with a major manufacturer. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    RC:
    CGX car nut:

    He thinks he has an answer and reply for everything.  It's all irrelevant as Tesla is facing unparalleled competition in the marketplace that it has never faced before.  This is a game of attrition and Tesla is not the longterm winner.  

    Unless Tesla decides to ally themselves with a major manufacturer. Smiley

    Why would they want to do that?  There is nothing at all they would bring to the table at this point other than an impossible to dispose of inventory and legacy ICE production tools. Sounds like a nightmare for Tesla and a last chance for some automaker. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    Karma, vol. 2: from Jalopnik. https://jalopnik.com/here-s-how-tesla-tsbs-expose-manufacturing-troubles-1846016877

    Hammering Panels And Installing Missing Suspension Bolts: Tesla's Repair Guidelines Are Insight Into Its Manufacturing Problems

     

    Illustration for article titled Hammering Panels And Installing Missing Suspension Bolts: Teslas Repair Guidelines Are Insight Into Its Manufacturing Problems

    Illustration: Jason Torchinsky/Tesla/NHTSA

    We’ve heard it endlessly, and it’s still true: Making cars is hard. One of the ways this message is delivered to the masses is through the reports of manufacturing glitches, sometimes as recalls. For smaller issues, reminders may come in the form of Technical Service Bulletins, documents that car companies create to provide repair instructions for those issues. 

    TSBs often give us an idea of where things went wrong or were missed during production. We’ve explored TSBs for vehicles like the Alfa Romeo Giuliain the past as a way to try to get a better idea of why owners and members of the media were experiencing issues with the car. Let’s take a look at some Tesla bulletins relating to the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y to get an idea of the problems Tesla has been seeing in vehicle production.

     

    Illustration for article titled Hammering Panels And Installing Missing Suspension Bolts: Teslas Repair Guidelines Are Insight Into Its Manufacturing Problems

    Screenshot: Tesla via NHTSA

    One of the most recent bulletins for the Model 3 is SB-20-16-003, which instructs service centers to look for missing bolts on the busbars for the high-voltage battery that powers the drive motors. The bulletin states that “Certain Model 3 high-voltage batteries may not have a sufficient quantity of bolts for the contactor DC link busbars, which may prevent the vehicle from charging or powering properly” as these busbars connect the battery to the rest of the high voltage system.

     

    undefined

    Screenshot: Tesla via NHTSA

    The TSB follows up with instructions to inspect the terminals if bolts turn out to be missing, as the lack of contact may cause arcing burns on the joints or terminals. Tesla does not list the number of vehicles that may be affected, but says that the TSB applies to some Model 3s from the 2018 and 2019 model years. Technicians are asked to take photos of cars with missing bolts prior to repair.

    Cars leaving the factory with missing fasteners is an uncommon issue in modern automotive manufacturing, as there are tools and procedures to prevent such issues. Most factories use nutrunners in conjunction with programmable logic controllers, or PLCs, that prevent a car from being released to the next station on the assembly line until all nuts are accounted for. Tesla makes use of some automation, but Model 3 production was also expanded at a hasty pace and came to involve a lot of manual processes, so it is not hard to see how something like this may have happened

     

    Illustration for article titled Hammering Panels And Installing Missing Suspension Bolts: Teslas Repair Guidelines Are Insight Into Its Manufacturing Problems

    Screenshot: Tesla via NHTSA

    Another TSB dives into clearance issues that might result in parts not sitting flush such as TSB SB-20-10-001, which applies to protruding charge port doors on the Model 3 and Model Y. The document instructs technicians to check the distance from the edge of the charge port door to the taillight assembly and to make a repair if it sticks out more than 1.5 millimeters. 

     

    Illustration for article titled Hammering Panels And Installing Missing Suspension Bolts: Teslas Repair Guidelines Are Insight Into Its Manufacturing Problems

    Screenshot: Tesla via NHTSA

    The repair procedure involves removing the charge port door assembly along with the taillight assembly, and bending the sheetmetal behind them, either using a paintless dent repair kit provided by Tesla or a dead-blow hammer if that kit is not available. Technicians are instructed to protect the corners that are being hammered with tape in order to minimize paint damage. Once the corners are hammered in, technicians are instructed to apply touch-up paint if necessary to fix any paint damage.

     

    Illustration for article titled Hammering Panels And Installing Missing Suspension Bolts: Teslas Repair Guidelines Are Insight Into Its Manufacturing Problems

    Screenshot: Tesla via NHTSA

    Missing bolts are not just limited to the Model 3, as bulletin SB-20-31-012 for the Model Y states that some cars may have missing or loose suspension bolts, which are meant to hold the steering knuckle to the upper control arm. Since this is a potential safety issue, Tesla issued a recall bulletin, which means that all affected vehicles have to be repaired. (TSBs do not require a repair unless there is a customer complaint or a technician notices it while diagnosing another issue.) According to earlier reports, this issue affects 401 Model Ys.

     

    Illustration for article titled Hammering Panels And Installing Missing Suspension Bolts: Teslas Repair Guidelines Are Insight Into Its Manufacturing Problems

    Screenshot: Tesla via NHTSA

    One of the odder bulletins in the list applies to the whole Tesla lineup, specifically the Autopilot driver-assistance system. Bulletin SB-20-17-001 states that Autopilot could be affected by ASR-9 airport radar systems, which may cause electromagnetic interference resulting in Autopilot or camera alerts popping up on the screen. 

    The solution to the issue is a Tesla-developed electromagnetic interference shielding gasket that needs to be installed on the Autopilot computer in the Model S and Model X; On the Model 3, it’s installed on the main computer, where Autopilot functionality in controlled.

    Monitoring technical service bulletins on the NHTSA website can be a good method of discovering common issues with a given car and learning what repair procedures look like, especially for secretive manufacturers like Tesla that seem to release repair information only where required by law.

    While we said above that issues like missing bolts are “uncommon,” they’re definitely not unheard of, as Dan (we’ll keep his last name hidden), a quality engineer working for a major automaker, told us. Here are his thoughts on the suspension bolt TSB: 

    The thing everyone has to remember is that making a car is hard! Years of R&D, trial builds, and extensive training is no match for a line worker having a bad day and missing a bolt. These things happen. Sometimes, these are even out of the OEM’s hands as a supplier made the mistake. Missing bolts happen.

    What is most concerning is that these left the plant with missing bolts that can impact the vehicle’s function. There should be some level of preventive measures to ensure parts are not missing, like marking bolts after installation/torque. The suspension service bulletin with the missing nuts is especially scary, considering the OK images don’t have any marking showing that those were properly installed. I certainly would like to not have the whole knuckle falling off the upper control arm resulting in a crash. Maybe Autopilot could handle that? /s

    Dan continued, providing his opinion on Tesla’s charge port issue:

    The flushness issue at the charge port is also concerning as that means somewhere in their stamping and welding processes, there is a large amount of variation. To me this says the processes are not well controlled allowing for a high standard deviation with fit and finish. It is tough to tell in pictures, but flushness concerns on the side panel like that could mean there are sealing concerns on the body in white where gaps occur between the stamped sheet metal. I think “The Drive” article on this mentioned rust on them already in that area meaning water leaks are occurring. But again, this is not unusual in manufacturing especially with new model maturation. It is unusual that these are very visually apparent problems and literally hundreds of eyes look at it without reporting the issue. Their final quality department should catch these so either their quality department is not looking for fit and finish concerns or they are finding these concerns and shipping cars without repairing them.

    Overall, none of these issues surprise me. This is why OEMs who have been building cars for decades don’t have these issues nearly as much as Tesla. It takes time to learn from mistakes. You can have manufacturing experts on your team from the best companies in the world, and at the end of the day, they can’t control all of the variables that go into automotive manufacturing. Murphy’s law strikes again!

    To me, these issues making it to market is the real concern for Tesla as it proves that they are more concerned about selling cars than building high quality cars. This makes them money in the short term. And clearly, they still are selling to a blissfully ignorant audience that is more happy to be behind the wheel of new tech than a good car. However, with the established OEMs catching up with EV offerings, I think that will really hurt Tesla’s reputation. Once you get past the Tesla cult, the average consumer will want a higher quality vehicle. If Tesla’s vehicle quality does not improve, they will hurt in the long run.

    It’s worth repeating that this is one opinion from a manufacturing engineer working for a competing car company. Still, it’s always good to have input from engineering experts on these types of things. It’s also worth noting that Tesla boss Elon Musk himself admitted in a recent interview with engineering consultancy Munro & Associates that Tesla has struggled with manufacturing, especially as the company rapidly ramped up vehicle production.

    I confess zero comprehension for all of the above. No need to read. I guess you should not buy one. I know you were on the fence and wanted my advice but in light of all these problems I am going to sell my car and buy VW shares. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    RC:
    CGX car nut:

    He thinks he has an answer and reply for everything.  It's all irrelevant as Tesla is facing unparalleled competition in the marketplace that it has never faced before.  This is a game of attrition and Tesla is not the longterm winner.  

    Unless Tesla decides to ally themselves with a major manufacturer. Smiley

    Why would they want to do that?  There is nothing at all they would bring to the table at this point other than an impossible to dispose of inventory and legacy ICE production tools. Sounds like a nightmare for Tesla and a last chance for some automaker. 

    Additional capital and quality/experience. Simple.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    No one is asking you to sell your Tesla.  You like your car, and perhaps you received a good one, but stop pretending that everyone else, especially on a Porsche enthusiast website, should acquire one too.  Tesla has done some amazing things and some really boneheaded things that no other automaker would ever do to its customers.  Much of that is the result of a strong headed yet at times unstable Musk who was created a cult of personality. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    No one is asking you to sell your Tesla.  You like your car, and perhaps you received a good one, but stop pretending that everyone else, especially on a Porsche enthusiast website, should acquire one too.  Tesla has done some amazing things and some really boneheaded things that no other automaker would ever do to its customers.  Much of that is the result of a strong headed yet at times unstable Musk who was created a cult of personality. 

    Well said but I also think that Tesla could not only survive but also flourish if Musk makes the right decisions for the future of the company. 

    The problem here could be Musk himself: A few days ago he tweeted that he is going to take a break from Twitter and one day later, he tweeted some weird stuff which could lead to the suspicion that he had too many mushrooms again. Smiley Maybe this is just a show he puts on to keep his "personality cult" intact but he needs to be careful not to offend potential investors and especially potential allies.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    RC:
    Leawood911:
    RC:
    CGX car nut:

    He thinks he has an answer and reply for everything.  It's all irrelevant as Tesla is facing unparalleled competition in the marketplace that it has never faced before.  This is a game of attrition and Tesla is not the longterm winner.  

    Unless Tesla decides to ally themselves with a major manufacturer. Smiley

    Why would they want to do that?  There is nothing at all they would bring to the table at this point other than an impossible to dispose of inventory and legacy ICE production tools. Sounds like a nightmare for Tesla and a last chance for some automaker. 

    Additional capital and quality/experience. Simple.

    Who has more capital?  They are soon casting the cars into two pieces and a battery pack. This will greatly simplify and reduce costs. Panel fit will be vastly improved and the new paint process going into Berlin is supposed to be world class.  The German workforce will certainly help as well. I can’t think of much a legacy automaker can bring to the table other than new problems in phasing out all the existing tech and investments in ICE factory processes and inventory.  Just not a good fit. Maybe a tech company or other EV startup.  Elon is much more interested in other forms of EV transport like planes, tunnels, boats, motorcycles and all the components like batteries and solar.  Next I see him going for sources of raw materials.   Even a car companies dealer network or service strategy would be outdated if they join Tesla. 
    These are just not a good mix. In my opinion.   But it would be awesome for a legacy automaker if they can pull off being taken over by Tesla in a fire sale.  But in the end they are focused on building the ultimate factory - the machine the builds machines - and none of the current factories the ICE makers have are similar. 


    Re: Tesla

    Continuing to buy into the hype that was fueled by Sandy Munro!?!  Building cars from large castings isn’t a new or novel concept. Several cars in the 1920s and 30s were built using that approach; however, cost and low yields made this approach not economically feasible. Audi returned to using several large castings connected with aluminum extrusions for its A8 sedan.  General Motors uses a similar approach for its C8 Corvette where four castings form much of the structure of the vehicle.  Other components are necessary for crashworthiness, cost, repairability, and assembly considerations.  


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    Continuing to buy into the hype that was fueled by Sandy Munro!?!  Building cars from large castings isn’t a new or novel concept. Several cars in the 1920s and 30s were built using that approach; however, cost and low yields made this approach not economically feasible. Audi returned to using several large castings connected with aluminum extrusions for its A8 sedan.  General Motors uses a similar approach for its C8 Corvette where four castings form much of the structure of the vehicle.  Other components are necessary for crashworthiness, cost, repairability, and assembly considerations.  

    You seem to be very aware of what is going on which makes your aggressive approach to this topic a bit more strange.  My point was there is little traditional manufacturing has to offer Tesla and a legacy automaker is s not a good fit. 
    Yes there will be more than 3 pieces. Are you aware of defects, manufacturing issues or poor engineering and reliability problems with other automakers?  Have there been recalls and safety issues in the past and will they continue the future? 
    I don’t care if anyone here buys a Tesla or not. If I did I would give you all my referral code. As an owner and forum member I do enjoy discussing the pros and cons. I also call bullshit when information is just silly or in these cases normal in terms of stuff you run into making a complex product. 
    If you want to ask me about the problems I have actually encountered or problems I see with the car I would be happy to. Right now my phone is not unlocking the car via Bluetooth like I expect so I am in the process of trouble shooting. It’s not the end of the world but it is my first such incident.  Once on a very rainy highway drive the rear passenger door claimed to be open when it was not.  The issue went away on its own an hour later.  I bet I can think of lots of things I would change or even dislike. Overall though it is an amazing deal for the money and I like.  I still drive my Turbo (just yesterday) and enjoy it as well. It is getting harder and harder to justify driving it though. I see it as a fragile investment now which is a shame. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    RC:
    Leawood911:
    RC:
    CGX car nut:

    He thinks he has an answer and reply for everything.  It's all irrelevant as Tesla is facing unparalleled competition in the marketplace that it has never faced before.  This is a game of attrition and Tesla is not the longterm winner.  

    Unless Tesla decides to ally themselves with a major manufacturer. Smiley

    Why would they want to do that?  There is nothing at all they would bring to the table at this point other than an impossible to dispose of inventory and legacy ICE production tools. Sounds like a nightmare for Tesla and a last chance for some automaker. 

    Additional capital and quality/experience. Simple.

    Who has more capital?  They are soon casting the cars into two pieces and a battery pack. This will greatly simplify and reduce costs. Panel fit will be vastly improved and the new paint process going into Berlin is supposed to be world class.  The German workforce will certainly help as well. I can’t think of much a legacy automaker can bring to the table other than new problems in phasing out all the existing tech and investments in ICE factory processes and inventory.  Just not a good fit. Maybe a tech company or other EV startup.  Elon is much more interested in other forms of EV transport like planes, tunnels, boats, motorcycles and all the components like batteries and solar.  Next I see him going for sources of raw materials.   Even a car companies dealer network or service strategy would be outdated if they join Tesla. 
    These are just not a good mix. In my opinion.   But it would be awesome for a legacy automaker if they can pull off being taken over by Tesla in a fire sale.  But in the end they are focused on building the ultimate factory - the machine the builds machines - and none of the current factories the ICE makers have are similar. 

     

    And the insurance companies will object, or even perhaps priced the insurance premium out of reach for buyers. 

    Face it, people get into car accidents all the time. Separate panels and sections means easier and cheaper repairs. There are many examples of insurance companies objecting to how a car's panels are designed and changes were made. 

    Fit and finish aren't a problem for normal car makers, they have the knowhow to design something that fits and also doesn't cost much. It's the basics of car design and engineering. Why can't Tesla do that? 

     

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla

    Did someone say, "Apple Car"?

    Kia Seeks Partners to Build Apple Car in Georgia

    South Korean auto maker’s proposal would involve a multibillion-dollar investment

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/kia-is-preparing-to-build-apple-cars-in-the-u-s-11612498065


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Tesla

    At what point is car no longer a car.  Apple is probably reaching the end of the car with the persistent rumors that this vehicle/pod (GoPod?) is autonomous and even lacking a steering wheel.  No thank.  That Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing looks better and better each day.  


    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:
    RC:
    Leawood911:
    RC:
    CGX car nut:

    He thinks he has an answer and reply for everything.  It's all irrelevant as Tesla is facing unparalleled competition in the marketplace that it has never faced before.  This is a game of attrition and Tesla is not the longterm winner.  

    Unless Tesla decides to ally themselves with a major manufacturer. Smiley

    Why would they want to do that?  There is nothing at all they would bring to the table at this point other than an impossible to dispose of inventory and legacy ICE production tools. Sounds like a nightmare for Tesla and a last chance for some automaker. 

    Additional capital and quality/experience. Simple.

    Who has more capital?  They are soon casting the cars into two pieces and a battery pack. This will greatly simplify and reduce costs. Panel fit will be vastly improved and the new paint process going into Berlin is supposed to be world class.  The German workforce will certainly help as well. I can’t think of much a legacy automaker can bring to the table other than new problems in phasing out all the existing tech and investments in ICE factory processes and inventory.  Just not a good fit. Maybe a tech company or other EV startup.  Elon is much more interested in other forms of EV transport like planes, tunnels, boats, motorcycles and all the components like batteries and solar.  Next I see him going for sources of raw materials.   Even a car companies dealer network or service strategy would be outdated if they join Tesla. 
    These are just not a good mix. In my opinion.   But it would be awesome for a legacy automaker if they can pull off being taken over by Tesla in a fire sale.  But in the end they are focused on building the ultimate factory - the machine the builds machines - and none of the current factories the ICE makers have are similar. 

     

    And the insurance companies will object, or even perhaps priced the insurance premium out of reach for buyers. 

    Face it, people get into car accidents all the time. Separate panels and sections means easier and cheaper repairs. There are many examples of insurance companies objecting to how a car's panels are designed and changes were made. 

    Fit and finish aren't a problem for normal car makers, they have the knowhow to design something that fits and also doesn't cost much. It's the basics of car design and engineering. Why can't Tesla do that? 

     

     

     

    Have you seen the accident or theft rate of Tesla’s?  They are dirt cheap to insure - ridiculously so given the performance. And that is not counting Tesla Insurance, now only in California.  Once they eliminate so many frame components it will be cheaper to build and cheaper to fix, cheaper to sell and cheaper to insure - and more competitive. The panels and bumpers on the outside will still be there and that is where most repairs end. If the frame is bent most cars are totaled anyway. Thanks to the castings the panel fit will be simpler and more precise. And let’s be frank. Some Tesla’s have perfect panel fit already. No manufacturer builds a car where each model and each car following off the line has flawless paint, panel gaps or zero defects. To pretend all other car makers build perfect cars is silly. There are plenty of 10 year old S class Mercedes which are not worth $10k and same goes for any BMW with an engine issue and more than 10 years old. 
    When I was a kid dreaming of that Lamborghini on the wall I was not concerned that the panel gaps were a joke surpassed only by the cardboard interior.  40 years later the auto enthusiast is still more interested in performance and bang for the buck than panel gaps. (Personally I have not seen any Tesla with panel gaps way out of the norm.)

    Of course Tesla’s are not perfect nor is any car. I’m not trying to sell one to anyone but it is pretty clear that the complaints are as close to nit picky as can be and many assume not just evil intent but also that issues are not capable of being addressed. That’s where you lose me.  If you look at Tesla customer satisfaction vs any other automakers you might discover the most important metric of them all. If I was in business it’s the one I would be most proud of. Am I wrong?


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    At what point is car no longer a car.  Apple is probably reaching the end of the car with the persistent rumors that this vehicle/pod (GoPod?) is autonomous and even lacking a steering wheel.  No thank.  That Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing looks better and better each day.  

    As long as the politicians don’t muck with the open market and the consumers choices I would assume the new products would only sell if they are superior in some meaningful way.  This gives companies the correct incentive to build better and better solutions to our hot rodding needs.  So as long as there is a demand which government does not outlaw or tax to death we should have amazing choices ahead. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    At what point is car no longer a car.  Apple is probably reaching the end of the car with the persistent rumors that this vehicle/pod (GoPod?) is autonomous and even lacking a steering wheel.  No thank.  That Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing looks better and better each day.  

    As long as the politicians don’t muck with the open market and the consumers choices I would assume the new products would only sell if they are superior in some meaningful way.  This gives companies the correct incentive to build better and better solutions to our hot rodding needs.  So as long as there is a demand which government does not outlaw or tax to death we should have amazing choices ahead. 

    Evidently even the news is slow to trickle into your part of the world if you believe the rubbish you posted above about government and open markets.


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:
    RC:
    Leawood911:
    RC:
    CGX car nut:

    He thinks he has an answer and reply for everything.  It's all irrelevant as Tesla is facing unparalleled competition in the marketplace that it has never faced before.  This is a game of attrition and Tesla is not the longterm winner.  

    Unless Tesla decides to ally themselves with a major manufacturer. Smiley

    Why would they want to do that?  There is nothing at all they would bring to the table at this point other than an impossible to dispose of inventory and legacy ICE production tools. Sounds like a nightmare for Tesla and a last chance for some automaker. 

    Additional capital and quality/experience. Simple.

    Who has more capital?  They are soon casting the cars into two pieces and a battery pack. This will greatly simplify and reduce costs. Panel fit will be vastly improved and the new paint process going into Berlin is supposed to be world class.  The German workforce will certainly help as well. I can’t think of much a legacy automaker can bring to the table other than new problems in phasing out all the existing tech and investments in ICE factory processes and inventory.  Just not a good fit. Maybe a tech company or other EV startup.  Elon is much more interested in other forms of EV transport like planes, tunnels, boats, motorcycles and all the components like batteries and solar.  Next I see him going for sources of raw materials.   Even a car companies dealer network or service strategy would be outdated if they join Tesla. 
    These are just not a good mix. In my opinion.   But it would be awesome for a legacy automaker if they can pull off being taken over by Tesla in a fire sale.  But in the end they are focused on building the ultimate factory - the machine the builds machines - and none of the current factories the ICE makers have are similar. 

     

    And the insurance companies will object, or even perhaps priced the insurance premium out of reach for buyers. 

    Face it, people get into car accidents all the time. Separate panels and sections means easier and cheaper repairs. There are many examples of insurance companies objecting to how a car's panels are designed and changes were made. 

    Fit and finish aren't a problem for normal car makers, they have the knowhow to design something that fits and also doesn't cost much. It's the basics of car design and engineering. Why can't Tesla do that? 

     

     

     

    Have you seen the accident or theft rate of Tesla’s?  They are dirt cheap to insure - ridiculously so given the performance. And that is not counting Tesla Insurance, now only in California.  Once they eliminate so many frame components it will be cheaper to build and cheaper to fix, cheaper to sell and cheaper to insure - and more competitive. The panels and bumpers on the outside will still be there and that is where most repairs end. If the frame is bent most cars are totaled anyway. Thanks to the castings the panel fit will be simpler and more precise. And let’s be frank. Some Tesla’s have perfect panel fit already. No manufacturer builds a car where each model and each car following off the line has flawless paint, panel gaps or zero defects. To pretend all other car makers build perfect cars is silly. There are plenty of 10 year old S class Mercedes which are not worth $10k and same goes for any BMW with an engine issue and more than 10 years old. 
    When I was a kid dreaming of that Lamborghini on the wall I was not concerned that the panel gaps were a joke surpassed only by the cardboard interior.  40 years later the auto enthusiast is still more interested in performance and bang for the buck than panel gaps. (Personally I have not seen any Tesla with panel gaps way out of the norm.)

    Of course Tesla’s are not perfect nor is any car. I’m not trying to sell one to anyone but it is pretty clear that the complaints are as close to nit picky as can be and many assume not just evil intent but also that issues are not capable of being addressed. That’s where you lose me.  If you look at Tesla customer satisfaction vs any other automakers you might discover the most important metric of them all. If I was in business it’s the one I would be most proud of. Am I wrong?

     

    Seriously buddy, can you take off the Tesla goggles and talk objectively?

    You don't have to be the one causing the accident, someone else can cause it. You could be on your autopilot and go your merry way but boom someone else drive into your car. Can autopilot detect and avoid something like that?

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla

    I'm sure they have an OTA that will be able to do that indecision


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:

    I'm sure they have an OTA that will be able to do that indecision

    How does one explain the current accident stats?  They are not based on who’s fault it is. The number of miles per injury accident is 4x - 10x as low.  The car actually avoids accidents such as people running red lights and not allowing the driver to move into that car.   There is no need to accuse me of wearing Tesla googles. It gets old. Accept the fact that I prefer to discuss objective issues not slander again and again. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    At what point is car no longer a car.  Apple is probably reaching the end of the car with the persistent rumors that this vehicle/pod (GoPod?) is autonomous and even lacking a steering wheel.  No thank.  That Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing looks better and better each day.  

    As long as the politicians don’t muck with the open market and the consumers choices I would assume the new products would only sell if they are superior in some meaningful way.  This gives companies the correct incentive to build better and better solutions to our hot rodding needs.  So as long as there is a demand which government does not outlaw or tax to death we should have amazing choices ahead. 

    Evidently even the news is slow to trickle into your part of the world if you believe the rubbish you posted above about government and open markets.

    I don’t think I was reporting the news. I was expressing my interest and hope in open markets and low government interference in a hope to find something we can agree on. But apparently you choose to focus on me being wrong about government wanting lower taxes. There is a new flash. Oh boy this gets old. I’m not your enemy. Hello 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    Carlos from Spain:

    I'm sure they have an OTA that will be able to do that indecision

    How does one explain the current accident stats?  They are not based on who’s fault it is. The number of miles per injury accident is 4x - 10x as low.  The car actually avoids accidents such as people running red lights and not allowing the driver to move into that car.   There is no need to accuse me of wearing Tesla googles. It gets old. Accept the fact that I prefer to discuss objective issues not slander again and again. 

    You keep repeating Tesla's own marketing stats, but only tesla fans swallow that up, they have been shown before to be as reliable as a deadline promise from Musk

    https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-4...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:
    Leawood911:
    Carlos from Spain:

    I'm sure they have an OTA that will be able to do that indecision

    How does one explain the current accident stats?  They are not based on who’s fault it is. The number of miles per injury accident is 4x - 10x as low.  The car actually avoids accidents such as people running red lights and not allowing the driver to move into that car.   There is no need to accuse me of wearing Tesla googles. It gets old. Accept the fact that I prefer to discuss objective issues not slander again and again. 

    You keep repeating Tesla's own marketing stats, but only tesla fans swallow that up, they have been shown before to be as reliable as a deadline promise from Musk

    https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-4...

    A study published in 2018 using data prior to that. The model3 has not even been produced and the number of Tesla’s was tiny. They painfully decided to settle on deaths of drivers which they admit is a rare binary event. They struggled with one or two unclassified deaths in California to get the number they needed because their tangent into solar city was hilarious. (Are we confused about solar as well?)

    If it makes you happy that think we can take a tiny sample of Tesla’s compare it to another sample of cars - just luxury cars - in order to proved Tesla’s are death traps then that is awesome. Of course Elon lies about everything. This is why his customers who buys his products all dislike him so much.  
    If you want to disprove a claim you should focus on the actual claim and not something similar but different. 
    Why not look up current crash test data and see how Tesla’s are rated?  Or does that not fit what you think?  How about looking to see if Tesla’s claims of far fewer injury accidents per mile holds up?  This is what he claimed, is it not fair to see if his claim is correct or is it better to look at old unrelated data to make a point?  The amount of explanation to make their narrative work in that article does not convince me but I’m certain Tesla haters eat it up. 
     

    Again - I don’t give a flying you know what if you buy one or not. Tesla does not care either because they can’t build them fast enough. My only interest is in pointing out how ridiculous some of these articles and comments are. 
    Btw unlike some leaders and CEOs Elon has not problem taking corrective action. His solar roof is much improved, his power walls are a big hit - can’t make them fast enough and his car company is doing okay.  
     

    Btw - now that Tesla has just about 20 times as many car and miles as in 2018 how are those same fatality rates?  Hmmm. I dare you to look it up or provide any current stat on injury accidents. 
    Lastly - why would you ever compare a Kia class EV to such well built luxury cars?  Lol. 


    Re: Tesla

    If after looking at actual crash test data and accident data and the list of active and passive safety features  you think a 2017 luxury car is safer to drive and a Tesla is a death trap by comparison then I have nothing to add.  There is really nothing to discuss.  Don’t buy a Tesla.  


    Re: Tesla

    You just keep parroting tesla's marketing data over and over but like I said, many of us don't take what Musk says as gospel, that article was just one example of why. The truth is as neither of the extremes, fact is Teslas are no different than similar class vehicles, if you look at lowest death rates for example, they don't even make the top 20.

    But like if any of this is going to open your perspective, you have progressively become more and more fanatic regarding Tesla and you are far too gone for any meaningful discussion on the subject.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos. Buddy. Did I mention my good neighbor is also named Carlos. He is a Chevy dealer and always has a new. Corvette ready for me to test drive. 
    You can pretend that a two year old+ article which cherry picks statistics is an indication of me being a fanatic if I question your conclusion. That is fine. What exactly do I need to agree to so that you feel like you are correct in your assessment that Tesla is a horrible car?  I’m not anyone’s enemy or trying to convince you to buy one. I have said that. I’m just mildly amused by and interested in why you feel the need to question my intelligence or perception of reality.   It is just a car. Why so defensive?  Are you immune to advertising but I am somehow a fool because you know what I believe and what I don’t?  It is not like I am alone liking my car or like there are not many good and valid reason to do so. Many more in my opinion than any other car on balance.  I’m not an exception to the rule. See stock price.
    Note Tesla does not advertise - yet you think I’m swayed by their marketing. Interesting. Their marketing is me driving their car each day. Hmmmm. Is my car lying to me as I’m driving it?  Am I actually not moving and still in my garage?  Where did those groceries come from?  

    Are all of the other car commercials honest?  Are the prices they advertise real?  Ever meet a car salesman?  They are a fun bunch  Never seen one at a Tesla dealer.  If put up with a lot of crap from other car makers and dealers none of which I have encountered at Tesla.  What is funny is how much pain the Tesla haters will endure in order to stick to their narrative and legacy automakers who are so happy to have them as customers.  A marriage made in heaven   

      I get you have free time on your hand. That is nice. I appreciate your efforts to reprogram me.  I’m pretty certain everyone reading this thread can come to their own conclusions as to how blinded by Tesla we all are in one direction or the other.  
     

    Go Chiefs - BYOB. Bring your old Brady. 


    Re: Tesla

    Your above post is what I mean. Can't you see you are the defensive one? Fanatically so? We talk about other cars all day long, sometimes we say good things about a car, sometimes bad, doesn't matter the brand, nobody has a problem with that, but as soon as someone says anything about Tesla, then... well, you know what you do. Just look how other Tesla owners here talk and discuss about Tesla with other members, and then compare with yourself. Its just a car buddy.

     


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla

    This is worse than the Corona thread smiley


    --

    2016 Porsche 981 GT4 | Racing Yellow
    2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White


    Re: Tesla

    Beta Testers AKA costumers doing the dirty work(testing the new heat pump) as usual smiley


    Re: Tesla

    This is how the software industry has been working for several decades. "Successfully" i have to add, when looking at their market cap. Tesla is doing the same. Instead of having 5+ yrs cycles for a new model, they follow the "continuous improvements" and "fail fast" idea.  There is certainly a lot to not like about this, but no one is forced to buy such a car


    Re: Tesla

    schmoell:

    This is how the software industry has been working for several decades. "Successfully" i have to add, when looking at their market cap. Tesla is doing the same. Instead of having 5+ yrs cycles for a new model, they follow the "continuous improvements" and "fail fast" idea.  There is certainly a lot to not like about this, but no one is forced to buy such a car

    +1

    Try telling that to the “armchair software engineers” in this thread indecision


    --

    2016 Porsche 981 GT4 | Racing Yellow
    2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White


    Re: Tesla

    Yeah, unfortunately it has been like that. Some companies don't give a damn about their cli€nts.

    For example, recently 8 million people pre-ordered the Cyberpunk 2077 game and it was released with countless bugs, glitches, poor optimized, etc.

     

     


     
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