Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - 550 PS Tuner war. - Page2

Aug 23, 2007 9:37:43 AM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2273, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: gemini_zar

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Gemini
Thanks for posing this....
Your stage 2 Sportec has stock VVTs right ?
Stock VVTs will support a maximum of 550 Porsche style engine dyno full load hp.
Sportec measure their power using a Bosch FLA chassis dyno which can give accurate results for many cars but is notorious for giving spurious power and torque readings for turbocharged Porsches due to the way it loads (or rather doesn't load

) the engine.
To really test how much power you have you need to do a GPS run 100-250kph or more if possible

Regardless of the validity of peak power/torque numbers I would not worry about the durability of the package, I am certain the software will have features to limit boost when certain damaging temperature thresholds are being approached....

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Aug 23, 2007 11:09:38 AM

gemini_zar: Newbie; Loc: Italy, Rome; Posts: 24, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Thanks TB993tt!
I'll try to find some of those GPS DataLogger here in Italy, which isn't easy

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Aug 23, 2007 4:49:34 PM

bluelines: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Argovia , Switzerland; Posts: 11655, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 29, 2005; Reply to: gemini_zar

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Thanks for the posting. Can you elaborate a bit on the sound from the Sportec exhaust compared to a stock Turbo?

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Aug 24, 2007 1:23:12 AM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
TB993tt said:
Gemini
Thanks for posing this....
Your stage 2 Sportec has stock VVTs right ?
Stock VVTs will support a maximum of 550 Porsche style engine dyno full load hp.
Sportec measure their power using a Bosch FLA chassis dyno which can give accurate results for many cars but is notorious for giving spurious power and torque readings for turbocharged Porsches due to the way it loads (or rather doesn't load ) the engine.
To really test how much power you have you need to do a GPS run 100-250kph or more if possible
Regardless of the validity of peak power/torque numbers I would not worry about the durability of the package, I am certain the software will have features to limit boost when certain damaging temperature thresholds are being approached....

Can someone please explain to me once and for all how did you all come up with this 550 hp maximum for the VGT's?
I am no engineer far from it, so how did this information become public or how was it calculated and based on what

?
Thanks in advance

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Aug 24, 2007 2:30:43 AM

Rami: Senior; Loc: Belgium; Posts: 760, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Seems that airflow at high revs become a problem on the stock VTG's. The bigger VTG's are good for around 600HP.
At least that's what I've been told!

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Aug 24, 2007 3:09:33 AM

SSR: Newbie; Loc: Mex; Posts: 4, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2007; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

I know you are talking about Euro tuners but I want to tell you what I have:

Aero-Techart
ECU-Evoms Giac (handheld programer)
Exhaust-Fabspeed,TA tips
Susp-TA coilovers,CCP (Custom Performance Products)rear adjustable suspension links,Evoms bars
Wheels-Champion,Michelin CUP
Airbox-Werks1

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Aug 24, 2007 8:54:27 AM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2273, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
AAHTT said:
Can someone please explain to me once and for all how did you all come up with this 550 hp maximum for the VGT's?
I am no engineer far from it, so how did this information become public or how was it calculated and based on what ?
Thanks in advance

The clue is in "Porsche style engine dyno full load hp"
There are very few engine builders who have the equipment,no-how or motivation to be able to measure this type of hp.
The 550hp max info is from RS Tuning who are fanatical about matching Porsche hp numbers and occassionally customers will ship their ~650hp engines back to Porsche to test -they have been spot on correct so far

BTW: Usual caveats, as RC says, trying to deal with them is a pretty horrible experience but now Cargraphic have taken over the marketing of "kits" things may ge better

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Aug 24, 2007 12:34:33 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

The 550hp figure only applies to the engine using the stock exhaust setup. Once the backpressure is reduced the volumetric efficiency of the engine is improved somewhere to allow for a number around 580 hp. I posted the calculations a long time ago of the changes in efficiency comparing a stock car in nl and sc boost levels, car with aftermarket exhaust (stage 1) in nl and sc boost levels, and a car with ecu+exhaust (stage 2) in nl and sc boost levels:

Quote:
G)997TT (stock, normal) tq 457, CID 219, press 1.8, BMEP 175
H)997TT (stock, sport) tq 505, CID 219, press 2.2, BMEP 158 (-9.7%)
I)997TT (stg I, normal) tq 487, CID 219, press 1.8, BMEP 186 (+6.2%)
J)997TT (stg I, sport) tq 535, CID 219, press 2.2, BMEP 167 (-4.5%
K)997TT (stg II, normal) tq 522, CID 219, press 1.8, BMEP 199 (+12.5%)
L)997TT (stg II, sport) tq 583, CID 219, press 2.2, BMEP 182 (+4%)

The important figure is (I) - the addition of exhaust at the normal boost levels improves the efficiency of the motor over 6%. This is a much higher effect than seen on a naturally aspirated engine due to the additive efficiencies seen on both the engine and the turbo. That would translate to an additional 30hp more than the quoted 550hp figure, or 580 hp which is what some tuners have listed as their max outputs

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Aug 24, 2007 3:57:21 PM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2273, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

550hp figure is using engine dyno developed exhaust and race cats.....
At this point rather than attempt a pointless internet debate readers should checkout the source's qualifications,experience and racing achievements

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Aug 24, 2007 8:02:13 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

This argument has come around many times. 550hp is not the barrier. More power is achievable, though the VTG turbos will be running into less efficiency islands of their compressor maps. The VTG compressor max flow rates have been tested and verified with Borg Warner. Data is here

Quote:

K24: ~32 lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Stock VTG: ~34lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Garrett GT28R: ~34lb/min @ 60% efficiency
Garrett GT28RS: ~37lb/min @ 60% efficiency
AWE Tuning VTG: ~40lb/min @ 60% efficiency

K24 : 32 x 9.5 x 2 = 608hp
Stock VTG: 34 x 9.5 x 2 = 646hp
Garrett GT28R: 34 x 9.5 x 2 = 646hp
Garrett GT28RS : 37 x 9.5 x 2 = 703hp
AWE Tuning VTG: 40 x 9.5 x 2 = 760hp

Stock VTG cars have been run on GPS and on timed tracks which collaborate figures well above 550hp, though not for sustained periods.

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Aug 25, 2007 6:27:05 AM

xandi911: Senior; Loc: brasil; Posts: 688, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 14, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

whats the max BOSTER that VTG's can produce?

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Aug 25, 2007 5:53:00 PM

GT2ETR: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 56, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
eclou said:
The VTG compressor max flow rates have been tested and verified with Borg Warner.

Eclou, who has tested and verified with Borg W.? AWE Tuning? I hope it is not your source because it is pure speculation.

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Aug 25, 2007 6:26:02 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: GT2ETR

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
GT2ETR said:
Eclou, who has tested and verified with Borg W.? AWE Tuning? I hope it is not your source because it is pure speculation.

Which is more speculative:

1) the repetitive unsubstantiated gossip passed on endlessly on this board from "unnamed sources"

2) power figures supported by
a)eddy current dynamometer testing on 3+ different sites/cars
b)GPS data measured on 3+ cars
c)calibrated 1/4 mile runs on 2+ professional racetracks

You don't have to have an MIT engineering degree to realize that many "550hp" believers are simply casting aspersions without any basis.

Should AWE's data be discredited even though they are a direct partner with Borg Warner? Would it be surprising to know that AWE has been testing Borg Warner factory supplied larger VTG turbos for over 6 months now?

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Aug 25, 2007 6:47:30 PM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
TB993tt said:
Quote:
AAHTT said:
Can someone please explain to me once and for all how did you all come up with this 550 hp maximum for the VGT's?
I am no engineer far from it, so how did this information become public or how was it calculated and based on what ?
Thanks in advance

The clue is in "Porsche style engine dyno full load hp"
There are very few engine builders who have the equipment,no-how or motivation to be able to measure this type of hp.
The 550hp max info is from RS Tuning who are fanatical about matching Porsche hp numbers and occassionally customers will ship their ~650hp engines back to Porsche to test -they have been spot on correct so far
BTW: Usual caveats, as RC says, trying to deal with them is a pretty horrible experience but now Cargraphic have taken over the marketing of "kits" things may ge better

TB993TT, You seem to know your stuff but you just referred me to some numbers from yet another vendor. Sorry I don't buy it even if they have the exact dyno porsche uses.
Lets put it this way, if a vendor is not capable of producing more than 550hp from a specific setup, it doesn't mean it can't be done or it is beyond safety limits.
I would look for documentation from the turbocharger manufacturers themselves, until then it is all speculation unless one of you guys is an actual porsche engineer.

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Aug 25, 2007 6:52:47 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
AAHTT said:
Quote:
TB993tt said:
Quote:
AAHTT said:
Can someone please explain to me once and for all how did you all come up with this 550 hp maximum for the VGT's?
I am no engineer far from it, so how did this information become public or how was it calculated and based on what ?
Thanks in advance

The clue is in "Porsche style engine dyno full load hp"
There are very few engine builders who have the equipment,no-how or motivation to be able to measure this type of hp.
The 550hp max info is from RS Tuning who are fanatical about matching Porsche hp numbers and occassionally customers will ship their ~650hp engines back to Porsche to test -they have been spot on correct so far
BTW: Usual caveats, as RC says, trying to deal with them is a pretty horrible experience but now Cargraphic have taken over the marketing of "kits" things may ge better

TB993TT, You seem to know your stuff but you just referred me to some numbers from yet another vendor. Sorry I don't buy it even if they have the exact dyno porsche uses.
Lets put it this way, if a vendor is not capable of producing more than 550hp from a specific setup, it doesn't mean it can't be done or it is beyond safety limits.
I would look for documentation from the turbocharger manufacturers themselves, until then it is all speculation unless one of you guys is an actual porsche engineer.

RS Tuning builds engines for the Alzen team. If anybody is capable of extracting the full potential out of a Porsche engine, it's them.

Not sure about this, but I think I have seen a similar thread on one of the Porsche forums (Rennlist or 6speed) with TB993TT having to defend himself from such claims (or was it a guy called Jean

?).

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Aug 25, 2007 7:14:34 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

There was a long and informative discussion with Jean and I on 6speed on this topic. The relevant highlights from that discussion were posted here as well, but I don't think it was absorbed by many.

Now that the "Golden Child" Alois Ruf has produced a 550hp car, I imagine the power output actually a fair bit higher given Ruf's history of underrating power. I would have expected this to quell the 550hp myth.

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Aug 25, 2007 9:15:18 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
eclou said:
There was a long and informative discussion with Jean and I on 6speed on this topic. The relevant highlights from that discussion were posted here as well, but I don't think it was absorbed by many.

Now that the "Golden Child" Alois Ruf has produced a 550hp car, I imagine the power output actually a fair bit higher given Ruf's history of underrating power. I would have expected this to quell the 550hp myth.

I would like a Ruf or RS Tuning car put on one of THEIR dynos to see whether the rating on their hardware actually corresponds with the advertised power. Perhaps their dyno does actually only show 550 bhp?

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Aug 25, 2007 9:16:53 PM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2273, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

This site is not 6speed where polished "end tanks" and "V-flow" air intakes get the kids excited - No need to debate, I am 100% certain you have seen the 580+hp on various dynos and that it has been verified by 1/4 miles and GPS 60-130mph - but I did say it was 550 "Porsche style engine dyno full load hp"

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Aug 25, 2007 11:06:10 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

TB the rumors started long before your post, which btw qualified the controversy quite well. Perhaps "550 sustained hp under repeated suboptimal conditions" would be an agreeable term for all?

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Aug 26, 2007 1:23:25 AM

LAT: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada , Canada; Posts: 164, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 4, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

In the Sept issue of European Car, test were performed of exhaust systems on an inertia dyno, the following were the results.

On a 996TT the cargraphic system rated at 21 PS produced an increase of 23 PS.

On a 997TT the AWE system rated at 24 PS produced an increase of 14 PS

For whatever reason the RS produced numbers closer to claim.

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Aug 26, 2007 4:56:22 AM

GT2ETR: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 56, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2006; Reply to: LAT

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Eclou

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Aug 26, 2007 6:03:48 AM

GT2ETR: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 56, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
eclou said:
This argument has come around many times. 550hp is not the barrier. More power is achievable, though the VTG turbos will be running into less efficiency islands of their compressor maps. The VTG compressor max flow rates have been tested and verified with Borg Warner. Data is here
.....

Eclou,
While what people say is not more reliable than AWE numbers, your statement above leads one to understand that the tested data (flow and efficiency levels) by AWE has been verified with Borg W.

However in your post above I don't see anything that proves that AWE claims (including their partnership in R&D with Borg W.) are true.

Can you please point to the verified data on dataloggers that you are referring to?

Are they independently verified (data and conditions)? What I mean is, the tuners's own data should always be taken with some scepticism, be it AWE, RUF, Sportec or RS Tuning, they will never tell you all the truth.

As far as efficiency islands, running a turbo beyond its efficieny levels is not what would qualify as proper tuning, or any sort of "tuning" for that matter, upping the boost to 1.3-1.4 Bar does not need an MIT degree either

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Aug 26, 2007 9:07:58 AM

TB993tt: Rennteam Pro; Loc: manchester , United Kingdom; Posts: 2273, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
eclou said:
Perhaps "550 sustained hp under repeated suboptimal conditions" would be an agreeable term for all?

I can sign up to that one

I was answering our Italian friend Gemini who kindly posted his Bosch FLA dyno charts where his 997tt had nearly 500hp before any tuning ! I have been on the Bosch FLA series many times and whilst it can give very accurate curves for N/A motors, it goes wonky with high power Porsche turbo engines probably due to the lack of loading during the "power run" sweep. An FLA typically whips up to 6500rpm in 4th gear in ~10s whereas a Maha can take ~40s loading the engine more realistically and giving more "Porsche like" numbers.
I pointed this out to Gemini since he was concerned about his "580"hp breaking his engine whereas on the road once he has taken the engine to the red line in a couple of lower gears the heat produced (which would likely be much higher than on the FLA) would make the ECU reduce timing significantly (and boost also) to cool the intake meaning his engine would not suffer - his "580" hp however would not be there either.
My favourite anecdote for a display of "Porsche power" is at a recent vmax runway run ~1.6miles a bog standard factory 430hp 993tt managed 184mph which was exactly the same speed as a 550+hp 996GT2 "RS" At these speeds we have watched intake temperatures and only the "suboptimal conditions" tuned cars stay making their power

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Aug 26, 2007 2:58:27 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: TB993tt

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

AWE's figures come from the Borg Warner engineering spec sheets that they have access to. Compressor map data is not something that can be easily generated on a flow bench. They have posted pics of the Borg Warner larger VTG turbo they received back in May

The evidence that I have weighed to question the 550 hp ceiling of the VTG turbos:

1)eddy current dyno runs (loading chassis dynos, not error prone inertia dynos)
AWE dyno
Imagine Auto dyno
EVOMS dyno with 100 octane!

2)GPS Performance/Driftbox data
Lukasluis 0-300 kph 30.7s at 17C (no sheet yet)
CGT1178's 0-300kph 33.6 sec at 37C
EVOMS 1/4 mile run at 1100ft elevation
EVOMS 1/4 mile run with 100 octane

3)video of calibrated 1/4 track runs
127mph trap speed
This is even more impressive when you realize the speed of the 1/4 mile run is an average and not the vmax achieved

In regards to the 993tt vs the 996tt w/mods, I find it entirely believable on a vmax run to see the real limitations of the cooling systems of the car. Porsche uses a cheap and inefficient tube and fin intercooler construction on the 996/997tt's which are essentially identical cores. I have a scantool hooked up to my car and have seen IAT's within 10-13F degrees of ambient under partial loads, and 30F degrees or more over ambient at WOT. Here it is 100F now so as you can imagine the temps under load are probably signalling the ECU to start pulling timing. That could easily explain the inability to sustain max output over prolonged periods. I have actually contracted for the manufacture of high efficiency and quality bar and plate style intercooler cores for our cars. I should be getting a prototype in the next month.

There is however yet another way to help the VTG realize sustained max power over extended loads in the form of water/methanol injection. A very simple model of 50:50 mix injection into the throttle body triggered by a pressure switch can be adapted to the TT. This would drastically drop IAT's and actually keep AFR's from drifting too lean as well. Such as system is popular amongst motorsports enthusiasts in the Subaru, Mitsu, 944 turbo audiences.

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Aug 26, 2007 4:32:53 PM

GT2ETR: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 56, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
eclou said:
AWE's figures come from the Borg Warner engineering spec sheets that they have access to. Compressor map data is not something that can be easily generated on a flow bench. They have posted pics of the Borg Warner larger VTG turbo they received back in May

Eclou, AWE Tuning does not have any compressor maps from Borg Warner's VTGs, if they do, please ask the owner to come on this forum and say it officially, and we will take it from there.

There is not one tuner in the world who has larger VTG turbos, what they have is a larger compressor fitted to the same VTG turbine, this has been done by MANY around the world but it does not work well so they prefer to go back to the old generation turbos as a result of larger compressor and tight turbine, you get too much backpressure and heat from overspinning.

Just to follow your line of thought, if there was any tuner in the world who would have the larger VTG turbos and who would be shared compressor information from Borg Warner, who would you think it would be, the likes of RS Tuning who work closely with the race department of ex-KKK and Bosch race engineers, and are their largest marketing tool (and German neighbours), with 25 year odd experience tuning the most succesful Porsche race and street turbo engines in the world (from the times of the Yellowbird at RUF), or RUF for that matter, with their pedigree in the Porsche world.....or AWE Tuning who is rather new in the Porsche tuning world and has zero professional racing experience?
What would make Borg W. develop that for AWE, their tremendous turnover? What about Cargraphic, FVD, Gemballa, Techart and other well established turnover powerhouses, why wouldn't they get KKK favours?

Quote:
eclou said:The evidence that I have weighed to question the 550 hp ceiling of the VTG turbos:

1)eddy current dyno runs (loading chassis dynos, not error prone inertia dynos)
AWE dyno
Imagine Auto dyno
EVOMS dyno with 100 octane!

Sorry, but you cannot call this evidence? Where is the independence of those numbers?

The three of them famous for their highest HP claims in the world with cheapest dollars, using chassis dynos, and all being GIAC dealers...Has any of their engines been verified by an engine dyno INDEPENDENTLY ?

Quote:
eclou said:
2)GPS Performance/Driftbox data
Lukasluis 0-300 kph 30.7s at 17C (no sheet yet)
CGT1178's 0-300kph 33.6 sec at 37C
EVOMS 1/4 mile run at 1100ft elevation
EVOMS 1/4 mile run with 100 octane

CGT numbers have not been verified I think, RUF numbers have not been verified either by the way, although I know they can be 100% true, they are very close to the 540HP Heidl car to 200kph.

Quote:
eclou said:3)video of calibrated 1/4 track runs
127mph trap speed
This is even more impressive when you realize the speed of the 1/4 mile run is an average and not the vmax achieved

How much load do you think a 1/4mile run has? You are accelerating from 5K RPMs upwards in all your gears, the load factor on turbos is close to nothing, also, who says 127mph is xx precise HP, online calculators? What would you say if I told you that the Heidl 540BHP did the 1/4 mile in 10.99s with a trap of about 125-126mph, and NOT on a drag strip? Also , how can you confirm that the weight was stock weight since it was tested by themselves? The Heidl 540 was tested independently so we know everything was stock in it.

I really like to read your posts as they are very informative and you take the time to understand how things work and why

I just regret that you pay too much attention to unverified, subjective claims, both concerning performance, and what Porsche factory produces, the bar and plate intercoolers are good for certain things and bad for others, would you really think that Porsche does not know that they exist? They had been using them in racing since 1975. They can buy such cores for 500 Euros from hundreds of dealers, why pay hundreds of thousands to R&D their own with BEHR and others?

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Aug 27, 2007 12:02:51 AM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: GT2ETR

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

GT2ETR

The larger VTG turbos of course are the same turbine mated to a larger compressor. The AWE units came from BW directly and are probably the same units that FVD, Sportec, Techart, etc also have access to.

I don't see why a compressor map would be kept secret. It is a common practice by Garrett, Turbonetics, the former KKK/BW to publish such data.

VTG turbines have existed for decades now in diesel applications. The technology is certainly not a Porsche invention, and I am certain that other manufacturers may choose to use the technology in their gasoline engines. With the power levels being seen I don't think that a larger turbine is needed yet.

Regarding the 1/4 mile load vs testing on an engine dyno. I think it would be foolhardy to discredit on-road testing in the real world environment over bench testing on a engine dyno. I don't think that an engine will ever be in such an ideal setting as in an air-conditioned engine dyno room with endless supply of controlled intake temps and coolant. I do agree that a 1/4 mile run will not test the ability of an engine to sustain max power over time, and such runs do exhibit heat soak over repeated efforts. However, that is not a limitation of the turbo rather than the cooling systems!

As far as Porsche, Borg Warner, Behr et all being ignorant of better constructed parts for usage - of course they know of better parts and designs, but these parts are being put into a production vehicle for profit and not for a performance benchmark. The components we get in our cars is what I would consider "consumer grade" and not "professional grade" parts. You can look under the car and see all kinds of evidence that the car was made to fit a certain budget and not a certain performance:

a)cheap lugbolts with little to no resistance to corrosion - same across the entire make!
b)weak and cheap stamp-constructed sway links
c)ridiculous turbulence prone 90 degree T-junction intake distributor
d)heavy cast control arms instead of stronger, lighter forged units
e)cheap "Y" intake tubing with fatigue-prone joint
f)flimsy intercooler hose fittings
g)non height adjustable shock bodies

When I hear that Porsche can turn an average profit of $30k per car, I often wonder why they did not drop the extra dime to spec better parts on the car. It disappoints me.

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Aug 27, 2007 9:03:10 PM

GT2ETR: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 56, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Quote:
eclou said:
GT2ETR
..............
I don't see why a compressor map would be kept secret. It is a common practice by Garrett, Turbonetics, the former KKK/BW to publish such data.

Eclou KKK do not disclose compressor maps related to Porsche cars, only a few have been published, and most were "stolen" proprietary information. Most of the KKK maps in circulation out there are not related to turbos fitted to Porsche engines. VTG turbos are not any different.

Quote:
eclou said:VTG turbines have existed for decades now in diesel applications. The technology is certainly not a Porsche invention, and I am certain that other manufacturers may choose to use the technology in their gasoline engines. With the power levels being seen I don't think that a larger turbine is needed yet.

Absolutely, and guess who was the first to have such VTG turbos? Garrett nonetheless. However the real challenge is not in the design but the resistence to the heat generated by fuel based engines. Diesel engines run quite cooler EGTs, petrol engines run almost close to 1000 degrees, which requires a much more resistent material while keeping them lightweight.

What Porsche has done, is invest in R&D with KKK to come up with a heat resistent material that would guarantee reliability on mass produced high performance engines. So guess what happens when you use a larger compressor with the same sized turbine? You increase revolutions and of course heat, and you end up destroying the blades and mechanism of the VTG device. By the same token, what happens to high boosting tuner engines on stock VTGs running outside their efficiency "islands"?

Quote:
eclou said: Regarding the 1/4 mile load vs testing on an engine dyno. I think it would be foolhardy to discredit on-road testing in the real world environment over bench testing on a engine dyno. I don't think that an engine will ever be in such an ideal setting as in an air-conditioned engine dyno room with endless supply of controlled intake temps and coolant. I do agree that a 1/4 mile run will not test the ability of an engine to sustain max power over time, and such runs do exhibit heat soak over repeated efforts. However, that is not a limitation of the turbo rather than the cooling systems!.

Eclou the temperatures reached in engine dyno rooms is enough to melt anything around them. 1/4 mile tests are good performance indicators for light to light racing on the streets, it does not mean that you will keep that power during a track day, a high speed cruise or racing a Corvette from 2k RPMs. But as I mentioned the Heidl car has 540BHP and runs sub 11s 125mph speeds on the road, where did the 70 additional HP claimed from some tuners go if they achieve almost the same numbers, moreover on a drag strip, with unverified weight and all the rest.

Quote:
eclou said:As far as Porsche, Borg Warner, Behr et all being ignorant of better constructed parts for usage - of course they know of better parts and designs, but these parts are being put into a production vehicle for profit and not for a performance benchmark. The components we get in our cars is what I would consider "consumer grade" and not "professional grade" parts. You can look under the car and see all kinds of evidence that the car was made to fit a certain budget and not a certain performance:

Aftermarket bar and plate intercoolers are the cheapest intercooler you can buy, a supplier of any of those cores being used by tuners nowadays would give them almost for free to Porsche to use them, it is not cost related.

You are partially right only, they do save on items that will not compromise safety or performance.

You had posted a BMEP thread not too long ago, check the BMEP of Porsche engines and compare them to competition, and decide whether they know how to build efficient engines. Is the GT3's brilliant palmares not enough to prove who knows what among car manufacturers? Check out the 997RSR BMEP, the only reason it does not destroy the Ferraris is because it is forced to run with restrictors and has massive aerodynamic disadvantage to help with the handling.

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Aug 27, 2007 9:51:04 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: GT2ETR

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

I don't disagree with you on your points, except for the turbos with larger compressors. The revolutions do not necessarily change. The angular velocity of the compressor wheel increases with the increase in radius, but the turbine speeds/shaft speeds can remain the same or actually diminish with a given exhaust gas flow. The increased heat has more to do with the increase in compression of the air.

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Aug 27, 2007 11:00:14 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

Just to add, tube and fin is the cheapest IC to make and purchase. The construction of tube and fin is chosen by manufacturers when used mainly in a front mounted position in front of the radiator simply because its inherent aerodynamic design allows more air to flow thru between the tubes. However, there is less surface area so the internal charge air does not cool as well as a bar and plate.

The bar and plate costs more to manufacture, but has the advantage of more surface area for the charge air, and thus it is more efficient - around 30% or so when comparing bar and plate and tube and fin of the same size core. Because of the greater efficiency, a smaller bar and plate IC can be used vs a larger tube and fin. This has the added advantage of less pressure drop (and less lag!) when used in identical applications

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Aug 28, 2007 5:37:29 AM

xandi911: Senior; Loc: brasil; Posts: 688, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 14, 2006; Reply to: eclou

Re: 550 PS Tuner war.

sorry about this but..

whats HEIDL? a TUNER?
a good one?

no idea...

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