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    Re: Washing Mit

    Brake Dust does not require any harsh cleaner to remove. Yes, it's impressive when you spray it and you see the dust immediately start streaming in black rivers to the ground. But you've still got to wash the entire wheel by hand to get it fully clean, so the fancy cleaner is superfluous.

    Can't tell you how many times I've bloodied myself on those sharp rotor splash-shields!!

    Re: Washing Mit

    Try this:

    Get a clear piece of Polycarbonate or Plexiglass (acrylic plastic).

    remove the protective sheeting which is stuck to it.

    Look at the surface: THAT is your brand new paint job.

    Now, rub the surface with a few cloths (terry or MF) and "wash" it and then look at the surface again.

    It will be scratched and look awful.

    That's what happens to your paint. It's a fact of life. The more you wash it the duller it gets.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Can't tell you how many times I've bloodied myself on those sharp rotor splash-shields!!



    So do I! Is this some kind of bond of blood?

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    function_analysi said:
    OBTW, what do you think about this?



    I avoid using wheel cleaner. I avoid using soap. On wheels it just strips the "RejeX" (wax) I put on to lessen brake dust. IOW, only use cleaners when things are really bad. Wheels are painted and clearcoated too, so I guess you're attacking the paint on them and the calipers by using the stuff... .

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Correct me if I'm wrong but here goes:

    Some guys with the machines grinding away claim that the clear coat didn't come from the factory with enough shine.

    They use a machine to increase shine.

    I personally think this is just wearing down the clear coat.

    Would be a time bomb when the next owner leaves the once-pampered car out in the elements routinely and then someday tries to _justifiably_ use a machine to shine it up: clear coat would wear thru.

    So machine polishing a new car's finish is ruining the car's paint for the long term. Not that there's anything wrong with that.





    Well..... You're not "wrong", but it's a matter of how "right" you are that's tough to say, i.e. how much time that would take...

    The amount of actual material (i.e. clearcoat thickness) you remove with each machine-polish is directly-proportionate to the cutting-degree of the polish used. If you were obsessive, and hammered your paint with a heavy machine buff frequently, using a multiple stages of polish going from heavy-cut to fine-cut to final-glaze just for the sake of "doing it" out of your obsessive compulsion, then yes, you'd probably sheer through that factory clearcoat in short order.

    It's all about the degree, the frequency, etc... A machine polish here or there, once a year, or once every few years, using only what's needed with regard to cut-degree, rather than just attacking the paint with a scorched-earth-for-the-sake-of-it attitude, and you might not live long enough to see thin areas in your clear.

    One thing that machines will tear-through in short order, is sharp creases and sharp body contours, when used by numbskull detailers who don't take care to avoid such contact. Not so many of those areas to worry about on our jelly-bean 997's. But if I had a Bangle BMW, I'd think long and hard before I'd allow some amped-up detail freak to start zinging a 10-pound orbital over the panels...

    Re: Washing Mit

    Ok, I'll bite..you obviously know what you're doing if you managed to win all those awards. I won a few myself too but nowhere to the degree that you have. What sort of soft terry cloth do you use because the ones I've found seem to be a bit coarse.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:


    Well..... You're not "wrong", but it's a matter of how "right" you are that's tough to say, i.e. how much time that would take...





    There ya go! Thanks for the clarification... . BTW, I completely forgot about the sharp edges of body panels taking a beating if done by an amateur.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Try this:

    Get a clear piece of Polycarbonate or Plexiglass (acrylic plastic).

    remove the protective sheeting which is stuck to it.

    Look at the surface: THAT is your brand new paint job.

    Now, rub the surface with a few cloths (terry or MF) and "wash" it and then look at the surface again.

    It will be scratched and look awful.

    That's what happens to your paint. It's a fact of life. The more you wash it the duller it gets.



    Flawed comparison, paint is a hell of alot tougher than plastic. And also realize that most of what's refered to as "towel-scratching" and dull hazing (which you really shouldn't get anyhow if you use soft stuff, and use it gently) that accumulates over time is partially confined to your wax or poly coat. Don't forget that you've got color, then clear, then wax or poly. It's a thin damn layer, for sure, but it's the first thing that gets hit.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Ok, I'll bite..you obviously know what you're doing if you managed to win all those awards. I won a few myself too but nowhere to the degree that you have. What sort of soft terry cloth do you use because the ones I've found seem to be a bit coarse.



    Good question... And you're going to laugh.... I've been having a tough time finding good towels lately that will ABSORB. I don't know what's going on with the mills, or if they are coating/treating the cotton yarn these days, or what, but any time I go and buy new towels, like the ones I got from Griot's, or these really fluffy-soft-dense ones I bought at Target (deluxe bath towels), they just won't absorb water worth a damn. They're great for buffing off polish and wax, but that's about it...

    So, the place I go for really great car-wash towels?? Goodwill........ You go there, and you always find these really expensive household bath towels, that have been through likely thousands of wash cycles, and are soft, and absorbant, and "seasoned".

    At home, my "good towel" cabinet is stacked full of oddball mis-matched old antique towels from all corners of the earth, some of which I've had for ages...

    You've also got to be careful to let good towels dry, before plopping them in the hamper. Otherwise, they'll "rot" over time, and leave behind a cloud of towel-dust on your paint, and eventually disintigrate into dust.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:

    Flawed comparison, paint is a hell of alot tougher than plastic.



    Dammit! I screwed up yet again!

    What is our modern clear coat made from exactly? Other than glass or metal I (an amateur) have never seen a shiny acrylic or epoxy surface that wasn't getting microfine scratches in it with one swipe from a rag. Even "bullet proof" Lexan scratches like jello. It's no problem really, you can get alot of those scratches and still have a shine. But eventually they add up and there's less shine.

    Re: Washing Mit

    You're right, the towels today don't seem to do a good job absorbing water. I have noticed that but however they seem to do a bit better after a few wash cycles. I'll be laughing all the way to the goodwill store. The ones that I found at the local auto supply store seems a bit too coarse which is why I was skeptical when I first heard you mention using that. I live pretty close to Griot's but I don't recall them having terry cloth towels. I'll have to check again I guess. I've actually been using their microfibre towels which works great, I thought.

    Thanks for the advice.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Yeah, Griots has towels, but they don't absorb. You're right, they improve somewhat with each washing, but I've still yet to get them where I'd like them to be absorbancy-wise...

    It's got to be some chemical treatment they put the cotton through now.

    Re: Washing Mit

    boss, i always use a chamois to dry my car and i try to rinse it several times over the course of drying...but now you've struck the fear of God in me!!!! are they really that bad??? even good quality ones that are rinsed often? i also try to remove as much water as possible before drying by running the hose (without a nozel) over the car to remove excess water (need a good coat of wax to do this).

    this might make the boss at home happy... i'll take over all the old towels in our bathroom so she can buy new ones!!!!

    Re: Washing Mit

    They're not BAD by any means, they just need to be used very carefully, because there's no margin for error if something gets into it, that's all... If it's been working for you, no need to change... Although on a black car, even with a high-quality chamois, they still leave behind the slightest of "film" on the paint from the dampness drying. On the odd occassions I use a chamois, I still do a final buff with a good towel to achieve the crystal-clean streakless finish I want.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    You're right, the towels today don't seem to do a good job absorbing water. I have noticed that but however they seem to do a bit better after a few wash cycles. I'll be laughing all the way to the goodwill store. The ones that I found at the local auto supply store seems a bit too coarse which is why I was skeptical when I first heard you mention using that. I live pretty close to Griot's but I don't recall them having terry cloth towels. I'll have to check again I guess. I've actually been using their microfibre towels which works great, I thought.

    Thanks for the advice.



    The terry towels at Griots are horrible for drying your paint it's probably why Griots removed them from the "Car Care" section and replaced them w/ Mico Fiber. The only thing I use Griots cotten towels for is drying my wheels after they've been cleaned. All cotten towels create fine scratches and the dirtier your car when you use them to push around dirt particles the more they will scratch. And some towels trap dirt and are worse than others. Regarding drying; not only don't they absorb but some leave behind lint and others have polyester thread (Griots are 100% cotten). Poly thread is stronger than steel lb for lb and will literally fine scratch the hell out of your clear coat. Using a soaking wet towel to clean a dirty car is even worse because you basically have 10-30lbs of heavy material pushing down fine dirt particles into your clear-coat and they also remove your wax quickly. Terry towels have greatest chance of a larger dirt particle getting caught and scratching your paint of any washing & drying method. Plus the fact towels are the biggest pain the arse to use and then clean. In terms of "absorbing water" you're right. After my washing process I use this highly absorbent Micro Fiber drying towel it absorbs water like a sponge:
    http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?L1=L1_1000&L2=L2_1003&SKU=11023

    It's about 1/4 the size of a regular cotten towel but I can easily dry 2 vehicles with it.

    This one is very good as well.
    http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?SKUupsell=11117

    Re: Washing Mit

    This might be a good time to mention that a guy in the Porsche Club of America who consistently won his class at the Parade concours used to only use his fingers to apply wax to his cars. The less mechanical involvement, the better for the finish.

    I swear some of our 997 owners will wind up wearing off their clear coats before the car is 3 years old.

    Dan

    Re: Washing Mit

    Actually I do use cotten towels for something else. I keep this one on top of my wash bucket that hold & hide some of my car cleaning products.

    Re: Washing Mit

    In terms of thickness here's the 2 Micro Fiber towels I mentioned above with 2 Griots yellow Micro Fiber Polishing cloths. The polishing cloths are an ABSOLUTE DREAM feel when using speed shine. I keep one MF polishing cloth and a 8 oz. bottle of speed shine in every car.

    btw: I've had of these drying towels each for about 2 years and use them every time I wash and dry a vehicle. Not too dirty huh.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    SrfCity said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    My almost three year old 911 has virtually no paint flaws.




    Let me guess, silver as per your Avatar? Of course silver looks good. Everything scratches to a degree. Get a black car and check back with us



    Nope, seal gray which does show scratches and swirls. And I am a regular at Meguiar's Wednesday night open garage and I do know what I am talking about. Silver, you get blinded trying to find scratches and swirls but you can see them with the trained eye and with a dual xenon lamp.

    Plus I have a black Audi A3 which is very scratch sensitive and had holograms and swirls installed by the dealer and it is actually doing very well now.

    So if you do a search of my car detailing posts where I have shown how to go from swirled black paint to a beautiful Porsche black paint with no defects you will see that I am an expert at maintianing a car finish in perfect condition.

    You live in Orange County, just maybe you should stop by Meguiar's Saturday class or Wednesday night open garage in Irvine. You just might learn something.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Do you guys not know how to wash you car? I can not believe all the misinformation given out on this thread. There should be no scratches on the surface of the paint period. A good way to check that is in direct sunlight especially if you have a black car. Another way is to use a dual xenon lamp such as:
    http://www.brinkmann.net/Customer%20Serv...;sku=800-2200-0

    And if you are a fanatic like I am, you use the lamp with a surface microscope to look closely for any paint defects.


    If you rinse your car properly, there should be very little water left on the car. Do you use a stream at the end of the wash? Try it, you will be amazed how little water remains. I can dry the paint surfaces with two microfiber towels max.

    This individual is one of the masters I learned from:
    http://www.superiorshine.com/

    Can anyone of you even come close to what he does?

    Meguiar's offers classes every Saturday on the proper care of the paint. On Wednesday nights, their experts help you work out any issues you have with your car. And in the two and half years I gone there, my 911 required no touch-up, nothing at all (can't say the same for my friends cars I bring there)( I have only had to wax my 911).

    Machines used properly are a timesaver. In the hands of the inexperienced, then thats...

    Re: Washing Mit

    They do some great work. Not sure if they will come to NC though :-)

    Re: Washing Mit

    This is one of those subjects where marketing-driven theoretical pontificating can muddy the more important subject: RESULTS

    Fact: Virtually all automotive-market microfiber towels are created by combining two Dupont fiber inventions: polyester and polyamide (nylon). The polyamide is used as the core of the hybrid fiber (generally 20 to 30% of the content) and the polyester is the outer skin (70 to 80%). Each fiber has specific qualities that, when properly blended, can be used to weave functionally specific fabrics.

    Also, to make a blanket-statement that ALL cotton towels will scratch to some degree, is ridiculous. Listen, I've got paint jobs here in the collection that make a factory Porsche or Ferrari finish look like they were applied with a broom dipped in a paint bucket. Perfectly pure surfaces, devoid of any texture, grain, orange-peel, or any perceptible flaw or irregularity. If you were going to see scratching of even the most microscopic level, you'd see it here, under artificial light, flourescent and xenon.

    So you can toe the lucrative car-care-industry line as much as you'd like, but I tend to focus more on the results, not what businesses would love to sell me...

    Lastly, regarding weight, you wouldn't use a flippin bath-towel as a wash-rag, you'd use a hand-towel sized unit, and it wouldn't be markedly heavier wet than a microfiber wet, and I don't understand how it would be any more prone to retain dirt particals than a microfiber.

    And even if you DID wash your car with a 20-pound soaked bath-towel, the weight would be distributed over a far larger area, the net effect being little different than a small soaked microfiber, using top-of-my-head math.

    Re: Washing Mit

    '69Boss... thanks sooooo much! You've spent quite a bit of time on this thread and I appreciate it.
    Everyone is going to have opinions, and I'm sure yours isn't the only way to skin a cat...but it sure sounds right to me.
    Finding towels at the goodwill is a great idea. Like you, I'm always tryin to find the good absorbant ones.

    Re: Washing Mit

    You're right, there is no one way that's right, and everything else is wrong...

    All that matters is results, and achieving those results with the most efficient means possible.

    I know I may come off as "my way is the rightest way" and argumentative, but I'm more about just tossing my 2-cents in where I've got an opinion that I think relates to the original post-premise, and pointing out where I believe that fiction is being stated as fact..

    Sometimes car care is alot like women's hair care... where your bathroom is stocked with hundred of dollars worth of conditioners, restorers, nutrients, strippers, shampoos, and miracle-potions... And if you actually had your wife's hair scientifically analyzed, you'd find out she'd have been far better off with a single bottle of Suave...

    I should talk, my detail cabinet is stuffed-full of nonsense I've been given or bought that I don't ever use... The funniest part is when you find out that a $5 bottle of stuff at Walmart, and a $25 bottle of stuff out of a catalog, is made at the same factory utilizing the same formula, with only the color-dye and fragrance being proprietary to the lable!!

    Re: Washing Mit

    What makes me chuckle about sooooooo muuuuuuuch concern about THE CORRECT tools and procedures to keep these cars looking showroom good, why do the guys most vociferous in this detailing debate DRIVE their cars?

    When you drive the car you certainly must do alot of damage to it; e.g. dust, dirt, dings, stone chips, UV exposure, acid rain, airborne contaminants.

    What's funny is when you trade the car in be sure to tell the dealer your car has been constantly and meticulously detailed with ONLY the most proper tools and techniques; THAT should increase your trade in value by about us$300 (three hundred). The new owner will be sure to keep up the program of extreme maintanence, not.

    Disclaimer: I'm not indicting anybody in particular. I'm saying: read about the pros and cons of tools and techniques once or twice and then just take reasonable care of your car.


    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    MMD said:

    What's funny is when you trade the car in be sure to tell the dealer your car has been constantly and meticulously detailed with ONLY the most proper tools and techniques; THAT should increase your trade in value by about us$300 (three hundred). The new owner will be sure to keep up the program of extreme maintanence, not.





    That's bang on. I used to think looking after my car and detailing it meticulously would get me more money when the time to trade in arrived. In reality it did absolutely nothing other than make the dealer think that he didn't need to clean it!

    Privately you might get that little more from the enthusiast its true, but it generally doesn't get that extra Pounds1,000 that's worth it. The problem is dare you take the chance?

    For me I enjoy cleaning the car, I really do so what did matter to me a few years ago doesn't so much now. Pounds16k miles in 11 months and loads of stone chips later, I'm loving every minute in the car.

    Re: Washing Mit, colors, and towels

    As long as we're talking colors and practicality, I think everyone will agree basic black reveals the most flaws.

    What is everyone's take on good (best) colors for a daily driver? Arctic Silver? Seal Gray? Meteor Gray?

    As for cotton towels, try the premium cotton towels Eddie Bauer and L.L. Bean sell. They're from the same Portugese mill, I think, and they're fabulous, in my experience (though don't use them on a soft top, go microfibre for that).

    Jim

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    You're right, there is no one way that's right, and everything else is wrong...

    All that matters is results, and achieving those results with the most efficient means possible.

    I know I may come off as "my way is the rightest way" and argumentative, but I'm more about just tossing my 2-cents in where I've got an opinion that I think relates to the original post-premise, and pointing out where I believe that fiction is being stated as fact..

    Sometimes car care is alot like women's hair care... where your bathroom is stocked with hundred of dollars worth of conditioners, restorers, nutrients, strippers, shampoos, and miracle-potions... And if you actually had your wife's hair scientifically analyzed, you'd find out she'd have been far better off with a single bottle of Suave...

    I should talk, my detail cabinet is stuffed-full of nonsense I've been given or bought that I don't ever use... The funniest part is when you find out that a $5 bottle of stuff at Walmart, and a $25 bottle of stuff out of a catalog, is made at the same factory utilizing the same formula, with only the color-dye and fragrance being proprietary to the lable!!




    Not true. The area you're talking about is my industry. Walmart's NBE (National Brand Equivalent) (equate) makes every single Contract Manufacturer sign non-compete's and confidentiality agreements making absolutely sure their formulations are proprietary NOT JUST the "fragrance". It's the same when Contract manufacturers make Generic versions of products and while to the casual observer they may seem the same they're almost never the same. And while the ingredient label may in fact look like a duplicate the formulations are different. And in may cases the difference is in the quality of the Raw-material's in the formula even though quantities may be very close. Not saying it's never happened, where the products aren't exact copies but nowadays w/ larger co.'s what you're mentioning is more an urban myth. Actually the largest Private Label Contract Manufacturer of Walmarts Equate & other Bath & Body products, soaps, shampoo's, body wash is one of my largest customers. I can't tell you who they are but they're in Canada. I also do a lot of business w/ Walmart indirectly through other large US Contract manufacturers as well as providing the largest soap & shampoo company's in the world with Fragrance for their product's that sell in Walmart like Dial and for Co. Like Bath & Body Works, Yankee Candle, and hundreds of other's in Home and Personal Care, most of which I can't mention Publicly and even car car products. Armour All (don't use this product myself) even WD-40 has my fragrance. More of a fragrance to mask the bad smell of the formula than a a nice scent, tough guys wouldn't feel right spraying jasmin on their tools. lol!! Matter of fact working on a auto leather product right now. Guess my point is there is a DIFFERENCE. You can take a look at my Fragrance company's web-site though. http://www.belmay.com/index.asp

    You've probably heard me refer to driving to my office in Westchester a number of times there's a pic of my office on the site. - Yonkers. We're the largest privately held US Fragrance manufacturer so when you mention "fragrance" or shampoo before I attempt fill a page with off-topic stuff trying to convince anyone I know what I'm talking about,, trust me.

    Bottom line regarding the best washing/drying/car care - if you haven't tried someones elses method for washing/drying your car and you believe yours is best then great! Some people aren't interested in learning new tricks. My wife still loses her keyes everytime she walks in the house but no matter how or what I try she is totally convinced she is doing it the right way.. I gave up on that one. For over 20 years all I did was wash & dry my own cars with cotten towels and when I discovered a new way it was like that commercial - I coulda had a V8! I couldnt believe how much time I was now saving and at THE SAME TIME my cars were coming out noticeably better. Not just a little better but there was HUGE difference. A DIFFERENCE in what I was doing for the longest time and what I'm doing now. Hey, some people will swear by generic versions or swap meet towels and of course they're good enough. If you haven't tried and lived with another method and it appears to be working,,, great! Just like it appeared to me to be working great when I didn't know any better and was using bath/wash towels. All I'm saying is I've done BOTH and will tell you imo using cotten towels is nothing like your "bottle of Suave" shampoo analogy. Not saying I invented a better version of sliced bread or anything just saying that I've done it like that (w/ wash/bath towels) forever and there's no comparison. Or maybe I'm the craziest OCD person here and even after trying both someone else may see no difference, totally possible too. Surprised by the disdain for providing information that I think might be helpful and imho is AT LEAST worth trying for those that even give a damn. It almost seems like it's more important w/ some people that they get their side across and appear right then actually....Ahhh whatever. Before knocking it or saying it's the same at least try it..... Or not, doesn't really matter I guess it's not that important. Peace out, I'm off on a trip.

    ps: RE: The wet weight thing, don't use Wet Micro Fiber towels. All wet towels trap dirt as you wipe them across a dirty car.

    Re: Washing Mit

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    What makes me chuckle about sooooooo muuuuuuuch concern about THE CORRECT tools and procedures to keep these cars looking showroom good, why do the guys most vociferous in this detailing debate DRIVE their cars?

    When you drive the car you certainly must do alot of damage to it; e.g. dust, dirt, dings, stone chips, UV exposure, acid rain, airborne contaminants.

    What's funny is when you trade the car in be sure to tell the dealer your car has been constantly and meticulously detailed with ONLY the most proper tools and techniques; THAT should increase your trade in value by about us$300 (three hundred). The new owner will be sure to keep up the program of extreme maintanence, not.

    Disclaimer: I'm not indicting anybody in particular. I'm saying: read about the pros and cons of tools and techniques once or twice and then just take reasonable care of your car.






    Yup. Drive them everyday............. Nope don't detail my own cars on my own for the next owner just love doing it and enjoy the results from my own hard work, makes driving my own cars even more enjoyable.. Could also just run them through a car wash too that would be taking "reasonable care of your car." that's fine too if that's your bag. You know. Gotta jet>>>

    Re: Washing Mit

    Like Stradale I clean and take great care of my cars for MY enjoyment. Who cares if you get more or less in trade in.
    My car drives so much better when it's clean

     
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