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    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David



    If, if, if...

    In Germany we have a saying, that goes like this:

    If the dog didn't have to sh.it, it would have caught the rabbit.

    Got it?

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I am familiar with the article. It was on a vendor who rented exotic cars to I believe Londoner's. These are his findings and do not apply to the ROW.

    Tell me David, given a choice to buy a 430 at MSRP or a 997TT at MSRP which would you choose?



    Absolutely the 997TT. As I've said in the past, the F430 is a terrible looking car (especially the Spyder with the weird after-market looking humps and cheap "roll hoops") and I would be embarassed to be driving it in public the same way I would be embarassed to wear a gold diamond encrusted Rolex watch in public. It's just not me.

    David




    Ever find that comment you said EVO posted that the Spider was "VULGAR" ?

    You should try driving the car one day, maybe you'll understand why things are the way they are.

    PS: The lambo is called "Spider", not the 430.



    Yes the VULGAR comment is in the print edition of the September 2006 EVO magazine. If someone has it, please kindly look it up. Otherwise I will order it if my honesty is continued to be questioned. I'm sure the F430 is spectacular to drive. Still, it looks terrible, and that ruins it for me. A big part of the sports car "passion" equation is how the car looks. It has to inspire passion, not make me want to throw up.

    David




    I've been getting EVO in "print" delivered to my home for quite some time. Sorry if it sounds like I'm questioning you "honesty" but your comments regarding what EVO said in the September 2006 article just isn't there. Isn't in any part of the magazine nor the article.

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    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I really like the S65, but the price tag is insane! I remember hearing about 1-year-old 65 AMGs being sold for under 100k in the US. Is that true?



    "Is that true?"
    SL65's being sold for under $100k? No, it's not true. Not unless maybe you were dealing w/ a car that's been hit or something.

    The sticker on the S65 was $192k. But imo is worth the money. Right on the window sticker it says '604 hp and 738 lb-ft of torque'. If I needed a large 4 door I can't think of another car I'd want.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David



    If, if, if...

    In Germany we have a saying, that goes like this:

    If the dog didn't have to sh.it, it would have caught the rabbit.

    Got it?




    LOL!! Exactly. We have one that goes like this:

    "If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle".

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously he comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world opinion stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.



    Couldn't have said it better, Gregg!

    After this perfect statement it would be time to close this appalling thread.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David



    If, if, if...

    In Germany we have a saying, that goes like this:

    If the dog didn't have to sh.it, it would have caught the rabbit.

    Got it?




    LOL!! Exactly. We have one that goes like this:

    "If my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle".



    ROFL!!!

    Very funny as well!

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Sorry,

    but have to agree that the 430 isn't really too pretty.
    The front is nice, but the Enzo rear glued to the end is hardly original looking. Doesn't that belong on the Enzo? The 360 and the 355 before it looked more complete, like a one piece.

    I'd be curious to know if the designer (Ken?) actually had a different idea for the rear end and Ferrari forced him to use more Enzo cues. I couldn't understand a designer starting with a fresh page actually designing the 430 that way. It would be like Da Vinci painting 2 Mona Lisa's. The only way he could design the 430's rear to look like that was if it he got lazy, tired, or forced by Ferrari.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.





    I really like your tone.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Sorry,

    but have to agree that the 430 isn't really too pretty.
    The front is nice, but the Enzo rear glued to the end is hardly original looking. Doesn't that belong on the Enzo? The 360 and the 355 before it looked more complete, like a one piece.

    I'd be curious to know if the designer (Ken?) actually had a different idea for the rear end and Ferrari forced him to use more Enzo cues. I couldn't understand a designer starting with a fresh page actually designing the 430 that way. It would be like Da Vinci painting 2 Mona Lisa's. The only way he could design the 430's rear to look like that was if it he got lazy, tired, or forced by Ferrari.



    The 355 was my favourite. The Gallardo looks absolutely beautiful next to the 430.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.



    Actually what David is arguing is sound. The crux is that because Ferrari restricts supply and Porsche does not, the relative difference in depreciation may not be soley due to variation in demand/desirability. Stradale, you're an ex-stockbroker, right?

    I'm going to take an analytical leap-of-faith and say that in the absence of supply controls, Ferraris would depreciate equally to Lambos in the USA. I think i'm correct in saying that they have equal levels of brand cachet in the USA (and rest of the world). Also, they are very similar in price and performence.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Stradale,
    Thanks for posting those scans. I must have the wrong magazine. I did see the VULGAR comment somewhere. I go to Barnes & Nobles every week and read all the car magazines. It's possible I mixed up the magazines. I will try to find the right magazine.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    W211 said:
    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Sorry,

    but have to agree that the 430 isn't really too pretty.
    The front is nice, but the Enzo rear glued to the end is hardly original looking. Doesn't that belong on the Enzo? The 360 and the 355 before it looked more complete, like a one piece.

    I'd be curious to know if the designer (Ken?) actually had a different idea for the rear end and Ferrari forced him to use more Enzo cues. I couldn't understand a designer starting with a fresh page actually designing the 430 that way. It would be like Da Vinci painting 2 Mona Lisa's. The only way he could design the 430's rear to look like that was if it he got lazy, tired, or forced by Ferrari.



    The 355 was my favourite. The Gallardo looks absolutely beautiful next to the 430.



    Agree. The F355 was the last great looking Ferrari made.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.



    Actually what David is arguing is sound. The crux is that because Ferrari restricts supply and Porsche does not, the relative difference in depreciation may not be soley due to variation in demand/desirability. Stradale, you're an ex-stockbroker, right?

    I'm going to take an analytical leap-of-faith and say that in the absence of supply controls, Ferraris would depreciate equally to Lambos in the USA. I think i'm correct in saying that they have equal levels of brand cachet in the USA (and rest of the world). Also, they are very similar in price and performence.



    I'm glad someone understands what I'm trying to say. It's a shame Ferrari has to resort to limiting supply to sell their awful looking cars. They know full well if they were to make more cars they would be more accountable for design and quality issues. As it is now, they are getting away with "murder," er, rather spitting in their customers' faces. They should be ashamed for manipulating the market for their cars at the expense of their customers.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David



    If, if, if...

    In Germany we have a saying, that goes like this:

    If the dog didn't have to sh.it, it would have caught the rabbit.

    Got it?



    Er, Rossi, this thread is about depreciation. As such mileage and supply are two significant factors. So I don't understand your remark. It seems inappropriate.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    The arithmetic calcs re: deprec/total cost of ownership in US for 6-12 mos@12K mi/yr pace of 997TT vs 599 vs CL600/63 are relatively easy to perform....

    Real question is value perceived (in terms of driving pleasure) by owners of each of the competing cars....a much more subjective, but ultimately more relevant, view as many buyers can afford any/all of these cars, no matter deprec....

    IMO, 599 and CL600 (and likely 63 if I can get an early copy ) are worth every penny, even if they incur 40-50% 6-12 mos deprec (worst case scenario if US economy collapses)....

    OTOH, having owned 997TT Tip/PCCB and traded it in for nearly 100% trade-in value (even after several K mis), would argue 997TT is a rather poor value ....IMO, the turbo lag, Prius Turbo/econobox exhaust note and lack of paddleshifters (let alone lack of PDK in '07 ) make 997TT a weakly engineered car in terms of its technologies and driving pleasure (though w/superb, 599-like steering and brakes )....net, net, to me, 997TT offers an abysmal overall balance of sportscar/GT attributes vs latest/greatest cars like 599/CL600/63....

    Ultimately, mkt decides which cars offer best "value", esp in the jaded $150K+ mkt....value in terms of MSRP mfrs can propose for their cars; discts/cheap leases mfrs need to use to move units; no. of units sold; trade-in values; and no. of frequent-repeat buyers....would observe that frequent-repeat buyer bases for $150K+ MB/F seem much stronger in US (esp in the often more jaded/"value-conscious" Greenwich/SF Peninsula mkts) than those for P.....

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Those V12 Mercedes are known to be the best bargains, when slightly used. Very hefty depreciation.

    I'm sure the 599 can hold its value signficantly better than the CL600, in both $ and %.

    It's all subjective as we all have different needs. Gone are the days of wanting a car with so much power the chassis cannot handle. The 997TT can handle its power but it's a little loud. What will be nice is having an car with the effortless power, quietness, comfort features of an AMG, with the driving dynamics, traction, braking of the 997TT.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.



    Actually what David is arguing is sound. The crux is that because Ferrari restricts supply and Porsche does not, the relative difference in depreciation may not be soley due to variation in demand/desirability. Stradale, you're an ex-stockbroker, right?

    I'm going to take an analytical leap-of-faith and say that in the absence of supply controls, Ferraris would depreciate equally to Lambos in the USA. I think i'm correct in saying that they have equal levels of brand cachet in the USA (and rest of the world). Also, they are very similar in price and performence.



    Of course it has to due with supply vs. demand, all used car prices are based on this, it isn't any different for Ferrari or Porsche. But it's not entirely true that Porsche doesn't restrict supply, they do. They're not like larger car companies that will offer more cars than the demand and then offer huge incentives to buyers but they try not to flood the market with cars that will just sit on dealer lots. So I don't buy that point entirely. Yes, Porsche gets more cars to buyers than Ferrari does but it's not un restricted. But it's more complicated than that.

    To address your good point though - Sure if Ferrari produced many more cars the supply would go up and if demand was the same at some point the prices of pre-owned examples would go down. But again it's not as simple as Ferrari saying ' hey, were going to build three time as many 430's this year', they're just not set up to handle that. And there are dozens of reasons why they shouldn't and more importantly COULDNT. The final assembly lines are tiny in scale. The more they manufacturer, the less control they have. There's supply line issues, labor, major dealer issues, especially problems w/ quality control,, hundreds of issues that would have to be dealt with and in the end, the product would definitely suffer. They know this, it's no secret why they've decided to limit production and it's not JUST based on wanting to keep the exclusivity of the brand. They're going to increase production, increase profits, but not at the expense of ruining or diluting everything Ferrari is about. You should see the factory if you haven't already, I was there last July and was amazed by their processes. It's not like GM where they can just build 10 times the amount of cars if the model is selling well. There's very good reasons for them not to over produce and again it's more complicated than just wanting to keep their cars market values in tact,,,,, it's a whole nother subject...

    But back to your supply vs. demand. How about price? Price point is a MAJOR component to how much demand there is. And at the price point of a 430 the market is so much smaller than that of the turbo's market but no one talks about that. Fact is there is a much larger # of people that can comfortably afford the turbo vs the 430, which affects the size of the market and the demand. The position that the 8cyl Ferrari wouldn't have as strong re-sale if they made more cars is like me saying : ' if the turbo had to sell at the 430's price, Porsche wouldn't sell anywhere near as many turbo's as they do'. On the other hand IF for some reason Porsche decided to cut the production of turbo's in half of course the car would have stronger re-sale value. It's the if, if,if thing all over just not reality ................

    But bottom line I don't have anything against the turbo, if my 996 turbo was a convertible I would have kept it and waited for the 997 turbo cab instead of buying a 997 S Cab and putting down a deposit for a 997 turbo cabriolet but one of the things I wish the turbo had was better depreciation similair to that of the 430, now that would be sweet for a lot of Porsche owners. But unfortunately for us instead of having the money back in OUR pockets from the buying & selling of our Porsche cars the money is in Porsche's pockets in the form of record breaking sales, extremely high margins (the best in the industry in fact), EPS & EBITDA. Because in the end that's what we're talking about here money and in the case of Porsche more money ends up in the company's pockets where in the case of Ferrari if they increased production and pocketed more profits there would be less money put back in the pockets of owners/drivers. I don't understand how anyone would want to see the corporation with more and the individual owners pocket less when it comes time to trade. I mean it's a GOOD thing for 430 owners that they get back their money, right why would any individual owner not want that? On the other hand, fortunately for potential turbo owners that also means many more folks are able to buy a great car vs. stranded for years on the Ferrari 430 wait list. Man, that's got be my longest post, if you've read this far and haven't fallen asleep I give you credit.. Yes, I was a stockbroker.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.



    But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.

    David




    Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.

    It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.

    For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.



    Actually what David is arguing is sound. The crux is that because Ferrari restricts supply and Porsche does not, the relative difference in depreciation may not be soley due to variation in demand/desirability. Stradale, you're an ex-stockbroker, right?

    I'm going to take an analytical leap-of-faith and say that in the absence of supply controls, Ferraris would depreciate equally to Lambos in the USA. I think i'm correct in saying that they have equal levels of brand cachet in the USA (and rest of the world). Also, they are very similar in price and performence.



    I'm glad someone understands what I'm trying to say. It's a shame Ferrari has to resort to limiting supply to sell their awful looking cars. They know full well if they were to make more cars they would be more accountable for design and quality issues. As it is now, they are getting away with "murder," er, rather spitting in their customers' faces. They should be ashamed for manipulating the market for their cars at the expense of their customers.

    David




    You mean POTENTIAL customers. I doubt very many actual customers have a problem with the 430's depreciation....Besides you have a weird position, you feel the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car and at the same time you're blasting Ferrari for not making enough of them.


    RE: your previous post; you're welcome.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    Well said, Nick.

     
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