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    To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Now that the 991 model is well distributed into the major markets, many have driven it and its characteristics are well known.  At the same time we have numerous owners of the original 997.1 model on Rennteam (eg. EasyRider, Reginos, and lots of others...).  I am curious how you see the pros and cons of selling/trading your 997 and buying a comparable 991, especially as many of these early 997s are now at least six years old.  

    (997.2 owners feel free to speak as well, but many of you have already stated that you are reluctant to move to the 991, including for reasons unrelated to the cars, and as well many 997.2 cars are only ~3 years old).  

    Smiley


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I love my 2005 Launch edition 997S.  Not going to sell it, perhaps ever.  It has everything I would want - PCCB, full leather etc.  To spec a 991 like that would cost me about $80K + my 997.  Not going there for a while.

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    My 997S is over eight years old now, and I just spent $2500 a few weeks ago because of the 60,000 mile maintenance and check engine light.  Also, I just bought a new set of tires a few months ago.  I'm ready to trade this sucker in....

    On a side note, it did make it to Vegas and back without any problems this weekend... Smiley Go Niners!


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    My car is a 997.2 (PDK)  that has just turned 4 years old. I find it absolutely satisfactory as a sportscar and traveling car and I don't intend to move to 991 at present.

    However, when the 991.2 comes I hope to be in a position to move to the new model, depending on used values for the 997.2 and my personal financial priorities. Moreover, new contentious features like the electric steering, PDCC will be much improved, come facelift time.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    my base 997 (2005) is still all what I possibly need, I guess ... - the engine is going very strong, the interieur is still in a good condition, I have a lot of fun with it and I would assume that I am currently capable to exploit 80 to 90 % of what the car can do... so, sometimes there is this itch, longing for more power, more whatever, but at the end, after a spirited drive, I always kind of tap on the dash board saying: well done, little chipmunk ! devil


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I will keep my 997 as I don't find the 991 appealing - although there are interesting ones comming such as the targa and of course GT3 - but despite 991 being "faster" I like the non-GT'ness , character , shorter wheelbase of the 997 chassis.  I find a 997 exciting to drive - I'd rather upgrade to a 997.2 turbo or GT3 if I were you for a very good price and keep it for a couple of years...


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I did upgrade from 997.1 C2S to 991 Carrera. 

    I'd owned 997 C2S for over 5 years and covered just over 10,000 miles in that time. (it's a 2nd car) I used to upgrade every 18 months or so until oversupply and economic events forced a decision to keep the 997 for longer. (there are worse cars to be stuck in) It used to be in the UK that a new car would lose a maximum of £5K over 18 months and you only got 24 months warranty - so it made sense to trade if you got your timing right. However after 12 months of ownership 2007-2008 the car had fallen £15,000. Rather than a 12 month wait for the car, they now supplied from stock!

    Being not prepared to lose so much money trading up, I was resigned to enjoying my C2S for a longer term, I drove it harder than any other P-car I've owned and it rewarded me more than I thought it would (so another lesson learnt - no more garage queens!). Only expenses I had were servicing,  gearbox cable snapping, battery & tyres. However in 2013 it was going to need it's next major service, tyres, brakes, Alarm work and the RMS leak had returned. I figured I was going to need to spend money on it.

    I was an immediate fan of the 991 but felt that the pricing was wrong. Job security was also a concern and I'm still a bit miffed that Porsche's no longer hold their value. But that is the way of ubiquity. That said, I still find 991 quite a rare sight on UK roads. So I drove a demo 991 C2S.

    It was like the 997 had become a nail overnight. I'd suddenly noticed chassis flex I hadn't realised was there. Cabin noise suddenly became more pronounced. Squeeks and rattles seemed to emerge from nowhere. Could I detect a coil failure? (pickup I'm sure was more hesitant than before) My, this leather is becoming shiny. 

    Started to look at used 991 C2S - prices around £70K mark seemed tempting and achievable. But then I borrowed a C2 for a day. When I dropped it back, I realised this might just be a better bet longer term. The pricing was better, the delta between the models isn't as pronounced as 997 was (PASM is no longer a necessity - they both have xenon lights - the power is comparable for 95% daily driving and in fact, in the UK - makes more sense IMHO as you don't need to be 100+ mph to enjoy it!) and in 5 years time - I fairly sure there won't be a £10K difference between them come trade-in.

    Then the dealer made me an offer on a new car I simply couldn't pass up.

    Now the owner of a shiny new 991 with the spec I want and I have returned to an old habit I had of looking in the garage at my car for no other reason than enjoying the vista.

     


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    My 997S is past 150,000km (90,000 miles) and still keeping it because I have yet to find a Carrera that is as rewarding to drive, since it has the rae combination of manual gearbox and the -20mm/rear LSD sport suspension which in the 997.1 was composed of a traditional shocks/springs setup, and the loud 997.1 PSE version.. It is the sportiest, most steering feedback, most agile "Carrera" I have driven, and I onwed 996 and tested different combinations of 997.1 and 997.2 Carrera's in the track and street,  and the 991 on the street. Essentially its so much fun to drive I'm not that motivated to change it in, and inspite the milage I have had no reliability problems save the scheduled maintenances, so no motivation there either. I have grown attached to this car more so than any other car I have owned and still puts a grin on my face when I push it.

    I will eventually change it in for a 991 with sport options (its a fantastic car though different) but I'm just not in a hurry, especially since I like to pay up front for my cars, and the combination of the trade in value of my car with the rise in pricetag of the 991 is out of proportion with what I would gain carwise.

    If I could go for a GT3 then that would be a different story, in a heart beat, but unfortunately I need the rear seats and also don't know how smart  a GT3 would  be for the milage I like to put on the Porsche cars I own. But one day....


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    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Carlos - 'combination of the trade in value of my car with the rise in pricetag of the 991 is out of proportion with what I would gain carwise'  EXACTLY!  The 997 is so much better than its trade in value.

    Like you I enjoy my car expecially since I have the new PSS9 coilover suspension, lowered to less than Gt3 specs.  The car is a friggin' go-cart -much better than any PASM set-up.

    I also would prefer to go with a 997.2 GT3 rather than a stripped down 991 (same price).  The used but perfect low mileage 997.2 Gt3 will hold its value and cost a bit more than a new Boxster S.

    Without full leather the 991 interior just looks cheap.  Also, I am not a fan of all the buttons on horizontal surfaces near the shifter and will never get used to an electronic emergency brake (the NEW GT3 certain must have a real hand brake!)

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I believe the hefty price increase for some of the 991 models are an impediment to a rational decision to buy the car. Recently, while at my Porsche dealer I was stunned by how much more the 991 models cost. They had a 4S Cab priced north of $130,000! You cannot convince me the 991 with its evolutionary styling (read resembles prior 911 models) is so far advanced from its predessor that it justifies the substantial price increase.

    That said, they probably are selling the 991 at a record pace.heart


    --

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    BjoernB:

    I will keep my 997 as I don't find the 991 appealing - although there are interesting ones comming such as the targa and of course GT3 - but despite 991 being "faster" I like the non-GT'ness , character , shorter wheelbase of the 997 chassis.  I find a 997 exciting to drive - I'd rather upgrade to a 997.2 turbo or GT3 if I were you for a very good price and keep it for a couple of years...

    Just to be clear, BjoernB - we don't intend to upgrade our own 997.2; it is still very new to us (purchased late 2010), only 65,000 km on the odometer, and great fun. But my post was mainly to poll RT owners for how they are thinking...  


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I'm very pleased with my 2009 C2S and have no plans to change.

    After 3or 4 years of the 991 and when you start seeing some 1-owner, low mileage, CPO'd cars become available, that may change.


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    IMHO changing my 997 GTS for a 991 would be a retrograde step!  This car still keeps getting better even after 2 years and 14,000 miles..kiss

    It's also rare -  having only seen two others... one on the road and one in a car park...!

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    nberry:

    I believe the hefty price increase for some of the 991 models are an impediment to a rational decision to buy the car. Recently, while at my Porsche dealer I was stunned by how much more the 991 models cost. They had a 4S Cab priced north of $130,000! You cannot convince me the 991 with its evolutionary styling (read resembles prior 911 models) is so far advanced from its predessor that it justifies the substantial price increase.

    That said, they probably are selling the 991 at a record pace.heart

    I bought my 997S in Oct 2004 for a base price of $90K.  The new 991S has a base price of $100K, so I don't think that the price increase is really that much ($10K over eight years).


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I am very happy with my 997 (X51) and recently I extensively test drove  the 991 S and then the 981 S. I found the 991 incredibly fast, so much that to have fun you probably need to drive at very high speeds on open roads. I get much more the sense of speed in the 997 vs the 991 (and you are going slower in the 997) . The 991 would be a great  daily driver but I cannot drive to the office with a 911. So the 997 does everything very well and I don`t see (in my situation) a real added value of an upgrade. Second the price point of a new well specced 991 vs the massive depreciation is not a hit I want to take .  Boxster: I loved the 981 S , fantastic car , in my opinion more fun (attention not faster) than the 991 . So because of fun which is a subjective term (and not of speed) at the end I decided to buy a 993 4S (more to follow).


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    m4ever:

    [...] So because of fun which is a subjective term (and not of speed) at the end I decided to buy a 993 4S (more to follow).

    Nice!! Congrats! The 993 4S is one of my favorite 911 models! Waiting anxiously for the review Smiley


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    SoCal Alan:
    nberry:

    I believe the hefty price increase for some of the 991 models are an impediment to a rational decision to buy the car. Recently, while at my Porsche dealer I was stunned by how much more the 991 models cost. They had a 4S Cab priced north of $130,000! You cannot convince me the 991 with its evolutionary styling (read resembles prior 911 models) is so far advanced from its predessor that it justifies the substantial price increase.

    That said, they probably are selling the 991 at a record pace.heart

    I bought my 997S in Oct 2004 for a base price of $90K.  The new 991S has a base price of $100K, so I don't think that the price increase is really that much ($10K over eight years).

    I bought my 997S in 2005 new for 100,000€ (~130,000$) and an equivalently configured 991S would cost me now 140,000€ (~185,000$), factor in devaluation in the trade in and you get an idea of how much I would pay for the "upgrade" Smiley


    --


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Alan, my issue is there is a certain price point I refuse to pay for certain 911 models. Paying about $150,000 after taxes for a 991 4S is far above what I consider a reasonable price. When base models exceed $100,000 before taxes the issue of performance/value becomes paramount.

    I paid $158,000 for a 997.2 Turbo Cab which was loaded with options. To me that was the upper limit and if it was to be my car I probably would not have bought it. But my wife wanted it and so end of story.Smiley 

    To my consternation one year later she rides in Boxster falls in love and trades the TT for the Boxster S. I took a hit but I must tell you the $60,000 we paid for the Boxster is worth every dollar. It is one terrific car.

    I told her she should get the new 981 and she will not budge. She loves what she has. In the old days that was what Porsches were all about. Today I am not so sure.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Yeah, and it looks like I made a mistake.  A new 2005 997C2S was $80K, so $20K over 10 years.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    My 997S was 100K new but had 20K in options (full leather, bose, heated adaptive seats, PCCB, navi, on and on.) To get the same 991S would be close to $125K and I might get $40K in trade for my 'OLD' 997.  That's $85K on top of my fine running 997  Plus taxes extra insurance etc. 

    Given that the way I see it my 997 is just starting its life with me - I can see it around in my garage for another 20 years (may be my own personal Singer project some day!)

    UNLESS I find a great deal on a 997 GT3

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I would get a 991 over the 997.1 in a heartbeat but I would think twice if I had to move from a 997.2 GTS, unless the dealer would offer a good deal.

    My dealer had some interesting deals for the 991 (only cars in stock) in December, this is why I was thinking about getting a 991 C4 or C4S instead of the Cayenne GTS but my wife and some friends set me straight, it wouldn't have been a good choice for a daily driver (parked outside my business...you know the story... ).

    The dealer lease offer included a FREE set of winter wheels in a value of over 4000 EUR, not bad.

    Lease conditions were also very interesting and they even had a very special 991 CS Cab lease offer...when I read it, I actually thought it is a typo because it was much lower than the other 991 CS Coupe and Cabs in the show room.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Plus Porsche makes it easy to keep your car. Newer models are almost indistinguishable from older models unless you are a Porschephile.

     One can almost buy a Boxster or Cayman AND a Cayenne for the price of a new 991 4S cab. 


    --

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Sorry RC but even a $4K wheel and tire deal (costs them maybe $1.5K) is not enough for me to hand over an extra $85K to drive a newer 911.  And that's the cost in the US!  Perhaps the difference is that I don't have a 911 car payment and take a different approach toward money and depreciation.  On the bright side I have always owned and driven a 911, never had a car payment and always drive them to work or anywhere without a care in the world. 

    For me it is just a fun car to drive.  Very fun - but it is just a car and a horrible investment.  As Nick points out - people can hardly tell them apart unless they are in the know.  (agreement with Nick is easy for me when it comes to Porsches)


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I think the 911 has become too expensive today. It used to be the versatile affordable sports car but now, with good options, it is a very expensive car.

    My 2005 Carrera S is like Carlos's but with PCCB and powerkit, the same 911 today would cost 165,000 euros!!!

    And if I sold my 997, I would get about 45000 euros. If I'm lucky!Smiley

    It depends what you want. Is the 991 better? Yes of course it should be, but my 997 is still fabulous, 381 hp for less than 1500 kgs, sport chassis, great sports car. 

    I mean that's less than 20 hp than a 991 Carrera S, that's an expensive upgrade!

    Also, for 165000 euros, you can have a very low mileage Ferrari 458 that's already had its depreciation hit.

    My advice is wait a bit and get a second hand 991, they are too expensive new.

     

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    But a 991 S costs 105.000 EUR in Germany. Even allowing for some extras (no need to overload it in order to enjoy a 911) it comes to 120.000 EUR. A long way from the 165.000 EUR of the used Ferrari. If you include the everyday usefulness and the lower running costs, the 991 is the still the sportscar bargain.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    reginos:

    But a 991 S costs 105.000 EUR in Germany. Even allowing for some extras (no need to overload it in order to enjoy a 911) it comes to 120.000 EUR. A long way from the 165.000 EUR of the used Ferrari. If you include the everyday usefulness and the lower running costs, the 991 is the still the sportscar bargain.

    Yes Reginos of course but I was comparing like for like with my 997S. It cost me 135k eur in 2005 and 165k eur with the same options for the 991. Sure if you take aways PCCB and powerkit, the cost goes down a lot indeed.

    But you can almost get a high mileage 458 for 120k eurosSmiley


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    RC:

    I would get a 991 over the 997.1 in a heartbeat but I would think twice if I had to move from a 997.2 GTS, unless the dealer would offer a good deal.

    Yip.  I smile every day as I commute in my 997.2 GTS PDK (although I now almost exclusively use the paddles!).

    Having often driven my friend's 2005 997.1 though, I can see why the question was posed: the 997.1 C2S is such a different car from mine: it feels very "loose", significantly less powerful, and everything, from the dash to the seats seems just a little tired - even though it's actually in very good condition.

    The GTS for some reason also seems to have a more "retro" feel to it that the car 7 year's it's senior: I can't explain it.  Maybe it's because it's flared rear-end and alcantara trim makes it more sporty.  And with the 991 only out in "S" form, it's really still way out ahead in terms of it's spirit.

    In fact maybe, just maybe, it's because it's just a tiny bit closer in spirit to Futch's Singer...  Which right now is the only car I'd swap it for.  Smiley


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    The running cost of a Ferrari daily driver (let's say 25.000km per year) compared with a 911 cost is minimum three times more. So I would still consider the 991 being a cheaper solution but not a bargain anymore.

    If you need a weekend car, then the Ferrari makes more sense indeed.

     


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Sorry, the 991 is not a sport car bargain. The GT-R and Corvette are. Now if you ask me which car I would take if they all cost the same probably I would take the Porsche. As I wrote before, Porsche price point has far exceeded its performance value. Again, I say this without any idea how well the 991 is selling. If it is selling well, then good for Porsche. They know how much they can extract from their customer base.Smiley


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    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    nberry:

    Sorry, the 991 is not a sport car bargain. The GT-R and Corvette are. Now if you ask me which car I would take if they all cost the same probably I would take the Porsche. As I wrote before, Porsche price point has far exceeded its performance value. Again, I say this without any idea how well the 991 is selling. If it is selling well, then good for Porsche. They know how much they can extract from their customer base.Smiley

    Maybe in the US. Considering maintenance, insurance, repair cost, resale value, etc., the 991 is the much better choice. Actually the best choice in it's performance range if you plan to keep the car longer. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


     
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