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    Tip/Auto rational

    I must say I'm shocked by the performance figures for the tip. They are excessively fast and it really gets me to scratch my head...
    why and how!

    For why, I personally thought (being as skeptical as I am) that Porsche was trying to market an antiquated technology that will be obsolete in about 18 months (PDK). I read interesting posts by people such as Turbo Al who think that the manual is being undertuned for reliability issues...

    What I don't understand is the numbers! Is the tip achieving this through a different gear ratio? If so how does it beat the manual to 200kmph (by .6 seconds!)!! Will it die off after that on its way to 300kmph?!?

    How can we verify this? Dyno charts? Anyone have any ideas?
    Has anyone seen performance figures for a tip ever faster than a manual?

    Very fascinating...

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Automatic is faster then manual only on Mercedes cars(SLK350 is faster with 7-G tronic then with 6speed manual...). Since Porsche is using Mercedes auto box for turbo... One of the reasons could be too much torque...
    One other hint-I heard a rumor(but, THIS IS ONLY A RUMOR!) that NO PDK for turbo...

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Porsche has to inform us about this thing...
    We are on the waiting list and we are all SO confused...
    I am afraid that we will all go with tiptronic in the end..

    Something more though... As Tiptronic is SO FAST, why didnt Porsche place it to the GT3 AS WELL ?!?!

    I am afraid i will buy tiptronic and i will sell the car the next week...

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    This is confusing. Actually I can see some people not buying the car because they want manual or PDK, but can't commit to a car that is faster with an auto transmission.

    Porsche needs to do some explaining or release some track times.

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    I agree with you! Since there is optional rear axle differential available for manual ONLY we can guess with confidence that manual is faster on track then TIP...

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Except that in the US we might not get the LSD option once again anyway...

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Actually mechanical rear differential lock is available is USA as well as Europe!

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Cool, I assume that is with the non PASM sport suspension?

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    No, with PASM! From Porsche USA web site:"This option improves the traction of the driven rear wheels and reduces load-change reactions during fast cornering."
    So, who will be faster around Ring tip or manual?? Manual, of course!

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Let me give you a hint....

    THERE WILL BE NO SPORT SUSPENSION... Only rear differential lock for manual cars only!!!

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Well, thanks for sorting that out.
    Now we just have to figure out the tip vs manual bit.

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    How come the flexibility (80-120kph) is also lower with the tip (3.8 vs 3.5). You would assume this is done without changing gears.

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    I can see, in 1-2 years, that there will be a lot of 997TT w/ tip in used car market. And, very rare for manuals. Why? I would like assume that at first people will purchase the tip ver. since porsche claims it's faster. But when time goes on, they will realize that tip is still a tip. And they might look for manuals or even PDK (when/if it comes out.)

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    I really dont know what to say... this is the most weird press release i have ever seen...

    Porsche wants to sell to all of us Automatic gearboxes...
    Who is going to buy a manual car with such numbers?!


    I wish i knew when the new GT3 Rs or GT2 will be out...

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    NO GT2.

    GT3RS expect something spectacular

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    More reasons to wait for the PDK

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Aisxos, you are right! Strange press release, indeed!
    Well, look at it this way if you want to control the car by yourself and enjoy maximum of it you will buy manual with rar differential lock option. If you want fastest STRAIGHT line performance and do not know how to change gears you will buy TIP. As I said before only in straight line(autobahn) TIP is faster then manual, on all other roads(and track) manual with rear differential lock will be faster(in right hands, of course!)...

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    I must say I'm shocked by the performance figures for the tip. They are excessively fast and it really gets me to scratch my head...
    why and how!

    For why, I personally thought (being as skeptical as I am) that Porsche was trying to market an antiquated technology that will be obsolete in about 18 months (PDK). I read interesting posts by people such as Turbo Al who think that the manual is being undertuned for reliability issues...

    What I don't understand is the numbers! Is the tip achieving this through a different gear ratio? If so how does it beat the manual to 200kmph (by .6 seconds!)!! Will it die off after that on its way to 300kmph?!?

    How can we verify this? Dyno charts? Anyone have any ideas?
    Has anyone seen performance figures for a tip ever faster than a manual?

    Very fascinating...



    This is very strange indeed since they both have the same top speed and the Tiptronic only has five gears. The only reason I can think of is that, like RC said, the Tiptronic is more "connected" to the rest of the eletronic systems to optimize gearchanges and that the torqueconverter has been programmed to keep the boost up while changing gears. In addition the Tiptronic must have been reprogrammed for extremely fast gearchanges (for an automatic).

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Quote:
    temm said:
    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    I must say I'm shocked by the performance figures for the tip. They are excessively fast and it really gets me to scratch my head...
    why and how!

    For why, I personally thought (being as skeptical as I am) that Porsche was trying to market an antiquated technology that will be obsolete in about 18 months (PDK). I read interesting posts by people such as Turbo Al who think that the manual is being undertuned for reliability issues...

    What I don't understand is the numbers! Is the tip achieving this through a different gear ratio? If so how does it beat the manual to 200kmph (by .6 seconds!)!! Will it die off after that on its way to 300kmph?!?

    How can we verify this? Dyno charts? Anyone have any ideas?
    Has anyone seen performance figures for a tip ever faster than a manual?

    Very fascinating...



    This is very strange indeed since they both have the same top speed and the Tiptronic only has five gears. The only reason I can think of is that, like RC said, the Tiptronic is more "connected" to the rest of the eletronic systems to optimize gearchanges and that the torqueconverter has been programmed to keep the boost up while changing gears. In addition the Tiptronic must have been reprogrammed for extremely fast gearchanges (for an automatic).



    Which brings us to the question: why bother with the PDK at all then?

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    Aisxos, you are right! Strange press release, indeed!
    Well, look at it this way if you want to control the car by yourself and enjoy maximum of it you will buy manual with rar differential lock option. If you want fastest STRAIGHT line performance and do not know how to change gears you will buy TIP. As I said before only in straight line(autobahn) TIP is faster then manual, on all other roads(and track) manual with rear differential lock will be faster(in right hands, of course!)...



    I'm not so sure I agree.
    A Tiptronic car in the hands of a experineced driver, who knows how to drive a automatic fast, the Tip should be a formidable weapon as well. And Porsche's auto is one of the best in the business with fast gearchanges and downshifts during braking for maximum performance.

    And the limited slip diff might not make that much of a difference (at least on a dry surface) now that the Turbo features a new, smart, 4wd system with a multiple clutch (similar to BMWs X-drive). On the old viscous system, which could have had a leading role in Dumb and Dumber, a limited slip diff would have made a big difference since a viscous coupling only reacts to speed differences between the front and rear axle. But the new system, which is connected to the the other electronic systems, can "anticipate" what's going to happen based on the information it recieves (throttle position, steering angle, lateral load...) and distribute the torque accordingly so that is ready before it is actually needed.

    But I guess we will have to wait for a Sport Auto test between a manual with diff and a Tip to find out...

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    Automatic is faster then manual only on Mercedes cars(SLK350 is faster with 7-G tronic then with 6speed manual...). Since Porsche is using Mercedes auto box for turbo... One of the reasons could be too much torque...
    One other hint-I heard a rumor(but, THIS IS ONLY A RUMOR!) that NO PDK for turbo...



    Yes but isn't that due to the gear ratios of a 7 speed versus a 6 speed (which Mercedes can't seem to make a decent manual to save them)...

    Although the manual has the rear diff, I expected it to be faster on the track anyways (torque control, downshifting for the driver, toe-heeling etc...), but the straightline #s still perplex me...NEED MORE INFO!!!!

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Quote:
    Crash said:

    Which brings us to the question: why bother with the PDK at all then?



    Well the PDK will provide even quicker gearchanges, so fast that the boost doesn't have time to go down. And without a power zapping torqueconverter it should be able to provide even faster acceleration.

    The only negative thing about a DSG (or PDK in Porschespeak) system is that it can occasionally get caught out if you do something it doesn't expect/anticipate. If you accelerating hard in third gear the clutch handling second, fourth and sixth gear will ready fourth gear since it is anticipating that you will change up into fourth. But if you then suddenly brake and select second gear it needs a moment to reconfigure from fourth to second.

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Quote:
    temm said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:

    Which brings us to the question: why bother with the PDK at all then?



    Well the PDK will provide even quicker gearchanges, so fast that the boost doesn't have time to go down. And without a power zapping torqueconverter it should be able to provide even faster acceleration.



    Hm... 12 seconds flat perhaps? But the manual gearbox is truly a disappointment from my point of view.
    It is possible though, that Porsche deliberately underrated the manual numbers and it could prove to actually be faster than the Tip. However you slice it, despite all the electronic "cooperation" for better boost response, etc., there is no way that a car that is:
    a) heavier
    b) 5-speed
    c) loses more power through the transmission

    is going to be faster than a lighter 6-speed car with less drivetrain loss.
    What I'm dying to know now are the numbers for the overboost option and for the powerkit (and powerkit with overboost ).

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    I just changed my order to TIP.

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Yeh, i don't understand the obession with manuals. If the tip is faster, buy it and be happy
    Why waste you time changing gears. I've always driven manuals, but my 997s cab is tip.
    I regret the perfomance loss, but love the ease of it.

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Some more thoughts on the Tip versus Manual question:
    1. Both cars are still pretty fast, even the manual-although that 0-60 Tip time versus manual still unsettles me-what is the reason for the difference with at most one gear change? Why would the manual tranny be so less efficient communicating electrically with the throttle control and traction management? Very interesting, indeed.
    2. I would love to see some more detailed info. on the 997TT-Tip tranny: Is it still only five gears? How well does it downshift compared to the 996NA/TT and 997NA Tip? Is it re-worked with the electronic throttle control to rev up to maintain power and torque during gearchanges and does it change gears more quickly as Temm suggested above?
    3. These must be tough decisions for manual lovers who might have to order the Tip on "faith" only. Ordering a car down to final specs. before any is even built and in a dealer's hands means no "test drives." For them, and for my own curiosity-since my earliest 997TT would be a base TCab, not until next spring at the earliest most likely-it would be nice if rennteam could get some more engineering and operating details.
    4. LSD only with manual? Will that sway buyers initially impressed with the Tip numbers?

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Some more thoughts on the Tip versus Manual question:
    1. Both cars are still pretty fast, even the manual-although that 0-60 Tip time versus manual still unsettles me-what is the reason for the difference with at most one gear change? Why would the manual tranny be so less efficient communicating electrically with the throttle control and traction management? Very interesting, indeed.
    2. I would love to see some more detailed info. on the 997TT-Tip tranny: Is it still only five gears? How well does it downshift compared to the 996NA/TT and 997NA Tip? Is it re-worked with the electronic throttle control to rev up to maintain power and torque during gearchanges and does it change gears more quickly as Temm suggested above?
    3. These must be tough decisions for manual lovers who might have to order the Tip on "faith" only. Ordering a car down to final specs. before any is even built and in a dealer's hands means no "test drives." For them, and for my own curiosity-since my earliest 997TT would be a base TCab, not until next spring at the earliest most likely-it would be nice if rennteam could get some more engineering and operating details.
    4. LSD only with manual? Will that sway buyers initially impressed with the Tip numbers?



    I'll be buying one when the powerkit or the Turbo S arrives, whichever comes first. Definitely manual, since auto trannies just make the car so dull for me. I agree, the automatic tranny perfectly suits the E55 AMG, but driving a 996TT with a Tip really didn't do much for me.
    There are several reasons to buy a manual:
    - driver involvement
    - LSD availability
    - easier amnd safer power upgrades later on
    - performance!

    I don't believe the Tip is faster from 100 km/h on than the manual. I think Porsche really underrated the numbers for the 6-speed to sell more Tips.

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    I agree with RC's "connected" comment. If you think about 480HP and 500FT/LB of torque it is to much for anything but the most experienced driver to control. When you have a computer controlling it all it can achieve maximum torque and each shift and manage the wheel slip at the same time as well as front to back distribution of power. In the past the computers in these cars where not that complex. Now that they are they can do a much better job than everyone expect maybe the most experienced driver. So much so that it overcomes the weight difference between the two. Ultimately I think it goes down to what you want and what you like. I love shifting, expect when the traffic is bad in Seattle on my way to Redmond(which is most of the time) So given that it is faster and more practical I will get a tip. I used to look at the interiors of Porsche parked at work and see a tip and I would think "Oh Girls car" Woman always seem to be more practical and I would associate the two together. Now I will have to look inside and say "Nice, this woman cares about speed" My Two cents

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Maybe Porsche is trying to get rid of all their leftover Tiptronic trannies before PDK comes out and nobody ever buys one again

    Re: Tip/Auto rational

    Quote:
    997CarreraS said:
    I agree with RC's "connected" comment. If you think about 480HP and 500FT/LB of torque it is to much for anything but the most experienced driver to control. When you have a computer controlling it all it can achieve maximum torque and each shift and manage the wheel slip at the same time as well as front to back distribution of power. In the past the computers in these cars where not that complex. Now that they are they can do a much better job than everyone expect maybe the most experienced driver. So much so that it overcomes the weight difference between the two. Ultimately I think it goes down to what you want and what you like. I love shifting, expect when the traffic is bad in Seattle on my way to Redmond(which is most of the time) So given that it is faster and more practical I will get a tip. I used to look at the interiors of Porsche parked at work and see a tip and I would think "Oh Girls car" Woman always seem to be more practical and I would associate the two together. Now I will have to look inside and say "Nice, this woman cares about speed" My Two cents



    Women? Practical? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!
    Seriously though, don't buy into the entire "Tip is faster" myth.
    Even with the electronics in perfect sync, it's still just a car! Traction isn't an issue with this car and even if it were, I'd like to think it'd still be independent from tranny selection.
    The Tip cars are heavier.
    The Tips are missing one gear.
    The Tips have higher drivetrain losses.
    The Tips look like "little gihly cars" (said with an Ahnold accent) with that fancy gear lever

    So, bearing these facts in mind, HOW can the Tip be faster? All the electronics in the world can't change one thing:
    When accelerating all out, everything is performing at its maximum. Shifting at close to redline and pedal to the metal. What do sophisticated electronics have to do with it? It's a con by Porsche to sell more automatics at 3000 EUR profit a pop.

     
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