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    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

     Let's see in what class,

    Also - They need to do it quickly!


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    40 years since the first Porsche victory at Le Mans...

    Stuttgart. On 14 June 1970, Porsche claimed the first of what would become 16 overall victories in the world’s most prestigious endurance race, the Le Mans 24 Hours. After precisely 4,607.811 kilometres – or 343 laps – Hans Herrmann and Richard Atwood were first across the finishing line in the legendary Porsche 917 KH from Porsche Salzburg, which bore the starting number 23. Gerard Larrousse and Willy Kauhsen in the Martini Porsche 917 LH, followed by Rudi Lins and Helmut Marko in the Porsche 908/02 took second and third places respectively, making it a total triumph for Porsche.

    However, the road to this victory was by no means an easy one for Porsche. The Zuffenhausen sports car manufacturer had been racing at the Sarthe circuit since 1951, achieving numerous class wins thanks to intrinsic Porsche qualities such as lightweight construction, aerodynamics and reliability. In 1969, Porsche was pipped to the post in the closest ever Le Mans race, with Herrmann and Larrousse in the Porsche 908 finishing just 75 metres – around one second – behind the Ford GT 40 of Jacky Ickx.

    In the anniversary year of 1970, all the signs pointed towards an offensive that would finally see the much longed-for overall victory in Le Mans go to Stuttgart. The Porsche 917 was destined for victory, having made its debut just a year earlier. On 21 April 1969, the 25 Porsche 917s were approved by the homologation commission in Zuffenhausen. The cost of materials alone exceeded DM 5 million. The Porsche 917, developed by Ferdinand Piëch, was unveiled at the Geneva Motor Show. This new ‘ultimate’ Porsche quickly caused a stir among rival competitors. Weighing in at close to the minimum weight of 800 kilograms, it went on to become one of the fastest and most successful racing cars of all time. The lightweight 12-cylinder engine delivered up to 580 hp at 8,400 rpm with a displacement of 4.5 litres. This enabled the long-tail version to reach speeds approaching 400 km/h (248 mph) on the 5,823 metre-long Hunaudières straight at Le Mans.

    In the run-up to the 1970 race, it was clear that the lessons learned from previous years had been worthwhile. Realising that rash manoeuvres in the first few hours of this classic endurance race would ultimately end in failure, Porsche made the experienced Hans Herrmann its first choice as driver. The Sindelfingen veteran combined speed and good sense. Together with Englishman Richard Attwood, he started in the 4.5-litre short-tail version bearing the number 23, which was painted in the red and white colours of Porsche Salzburg. The team’s second car, featuring a 4.9-litre engine and long-tail body, was driven by Vic Elford and Kurt Ahrens. A further three Porsche 917s were entered by John Wyer along with the psychedeliccoloured 4.5-litre long-tail version of the Martini team. There was also an entire armada of 907, 908, 910, 911 S and 914/6 models. At precisely 4 p.m. on 13 June, 24 Porsche cars stood at the starting line in Le Mans. By the next day there were still 12 remaining, five of which were classified. The only other cars to be classified were two Ferrari 512 S – this was out of a total field of 51 starters.

    This race went down in history – and not just from the perspective of Porsche – because of the disastrous weather. Vic Elford recalled how it was sometimes impossible to overtake, even on the long straights. Kurt Ahrens described it as being like sitting in a boat. And just a few weeks after his victory, Hans Herrmann admitted that driving in the rain had prompted him to make the decision to finally hang up his helmet no matter what the outcome. When leaving his house in Sindelfingen-Maichingen, his wife had asked him when he was going to give up driving, to which he responded: “When I win.”

    A promise is a promise. An hour after the start, which saw the drivers begin the race sitting in their cars instead of performing the world-famous “Le Mans start”, Herrmann was only in ninth place. The race leader was Jo Siffert, also in a Porsche 917, followed by Jacky Ickx in a Ferrari 512 S. Siffert later missed a shift and blew his engine, while Ickx crashed his red racer at the chicane. At around 6:15pm came the almost unbelievable news that four Ferrari 512 S had crashed into one another in the driving rain and were out of the race. The race also took its toll on the Porsche armada, with all three 917s of the Gulf team gradually dropping out.

    Now was the moment for the experienced veteran Herrmann, who had the perfect partner in Richard Attwood, to show what he could do. Under the most difficult weather conditions, he gradually moved his way up the field, guiding the Porsche Salzburg 917 confidently to the first ever overall victory for Porsche at Le Mans. He realised the significance of this moment as the race came to an end on 14 June 1970: “Wow! That may have been your last lap ever as a racing driver.” Back home in Stuttgart, his victory was celebrated with a parade, in which he drove his winning car through the city to the market square. Thousands of people turned out to congratulate Hans Herrmann, ex-racing driver.

    Porsche followed up this success with a further 15 overall victories at Le Mans, the second coming just a year later in 1971. In a unique Porsche 917 with a lightweight magnesium chassis, Gijs van Lennep and Dr. Helmut Marko drove to victory on a still largely chicane-free circuit. In doing so, they set an incredible record, which has never been broken. The Porsche 917 completed precisely 5,335.313 kilometres and 397 laps in 24 hours, clocking up an average speed of 222.304 km/h (138.140 mph) despite all of the pit stops and the long night. The fastest lap in the race was achieved by Jackie Oliver’s Gulf 917, with an unbelievable 244 km/h (151.6 mph) average speed, while the 917 long-tail Coupé of Elford/Larrousse was clocked at a maximum speed of 386 km/h (239.8 mph) on Hunaudières in 1971. 

    In 1976 and 1977 the Porsche 936 was victorious, while in 1981 it won again under Jacky Ickx and Derek Bell with a new turbo engine. Belgian driver Ickx won at Le Mans six times, four of them in a Porsche. In 1982 he was yet again part of the winning team in a triple victory that represented the first milestone for the most successful racing car of all time, the Porsche 956. Up to 1994, different variants of the 956/962 won at Le Mans seven times. 148 of these were produced in Weissach.

    In some years, Porsche conceded the most important race of the year to customer teams, who emerged as frequent winners. Klaus Ludwig and the Whittington brothers thus achieved victory in Le Mans in 1979 with a Porsche 935 for the Cologne-based Kremer team, while Reinhold Joest guided the Porsche brand to well-deserved overall victories in 1984, 1985 and 1997.

    Faced with the strongest ever field to line up at Le Mans in June 1998, Porsche racing director Herbert Ampferer spoke at the time of the “race of the century”. Porsche was represented with two new 911 GT1s and achieved a stunning double victory for the factory in the world’s most important endurance race, in front of a crowd of 250,000 thrilled spectators. This was the 16th and most recent overall victory for Porsche at the Sarthe circuit.

    From 9 to 11 July 2010, Porsche will be celebrating this special motor sports anniversary in suitable style by taking part in the “Le Mans Classic”, an event which is only held every two years. In six classes covering model years 1923 to 1979, around 400 historic racing cars will gather to relive their old racing triumphs once more. Among them will be some of the overall winners from the Porsche Museum, which will lead an anniversary parade on the race track. Many famous drivers including Hans Herrmann and Richard Attwood will also be taking part and will be available for autograph sessions.

    Porsche overall victories in Le Mans

    1970 
    Hans Herrmann/Richard Attwood 
    Porsche 917 KH

    1971 
    Helmut Marko/Gijs van Lennep 
    Porsche 917 KH

    1976 
    Jacky Ickx/Gijs van Lennep 
    Porsche 936

    1977 
    Jacky Ickx/Jürgen Barth/Hurley Haywood 
    Porsche 936

    1979 
    Klaus Ludwig/Bill Whittington/Don Whittington 
    Porsche 935 K3 Kremer

    1981 
    Jacky Ickx/Derek Bell 
    Porsche 936 81

    1982 
    Jacky Ickx/Derek Bell 
    Porsche 956

    1983 
    Al Holbert/Hurley Haywood/Vern Schuppan 
    Porsche 956

    1984 
    Klaus Ludwig/Henri Pescarolo 
    Porsche 956 Joest

    1985 
    Klaus Ludwig/Paolo Barilla/John Winter 
    Porsche 956 B Joest

    1986 
    Derek Bell/Al Holbert/Hans-Joachim Stuck 
    Porsche 962 C

    1987 
    Derek Bell/Al Holbert/Hans-Joachim Stuck 
    Porsche 962 C

    1994 
    Yannick Dalmas/Mauro Baldi/Hurley Haywood 
    Dauer-Porsche 962 LM

    1996 
    Manuel Reuter/Davy Jones/Alexander Wurz 
    TWR Joest-Porsche WSC95

    1997 
    Michele Alboretto/Stefan Johannson/Tom Kristensen 
    TWR Joest-Porsche WSC95

    1998 
    Allan McNish/Laurent Aiello/Stéphane Ortelli 
    Porsche 911 GT1 98

    -- Press Release: June 2010 --

    Smiley SmileySmiley 


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    I hope they look back at the lost decade in racing 2000-2010 and never make this mistake again. Porsche needs to seriously race the 918 and delivery victories again


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    The RS Spyder was a very good effort especially for those who follow ALMS. It was the dominant car in LMP2 in all years and it achieved overall wins against LMP1 in the whole of 2007. The car also won LMS and its class at LM. One of the great Porsche racers.

    Porsche engined cars also won the 24 H Daytona classic in 2009 and 2010. We must not forget that.

    The GT class 911s also had a very good career winning all possible titles in LMS, ALMS and FIA GT in most of the seasons. The 911s also shone in VLN which is of significance mostly in and around Germany. Only now the likes of BMWs and Ferraris have caught up, and the new 991 racer is round the corner.

    An overall LM win carries a different prestige, but we cannot say that Porsche have abandoned motorsport.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    You are right reginos. Porsche have not abandoned motorsport - but I would certainly like to see them place it higher up on their priorities list.

    I had an opportunity to get some helicopter views during Le Mans of the 911 and the 458 dicing it out from Arnage and into the Porsche curves. The 911 was basically as fast (or even slightly faster) on the straights, but as soon as they approached the Porsche Curves, the 458 was all over it. the 458 was light years quicker in the twisty bits.

    All I can say is that I hope that Porsche have done a lot of work on the 991 chassis, or they had better consider bringing in the rumored 961 ASAP.


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    According to Porsche Publicity Department: "Four 911 GT3 RSR among the best eight"

    What can I say?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

     130798434661835.gif Marketing guys are too much!


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Smiley SmileySmiley

    A closer look at that future mid-engined Porsche... 

    Mittelmotor-Porsche-c890x594-ffffff-C-7570761e-501430.jpg

    A new entry-level model on a mid-engine platform may come into the market early as 2015...

    Mid-Engined-Porsche_AMS-article-link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Deep Dive: Porsche plans Ferrari fighter...

    (1 August 2011)

    New chairman Matthias Muller has ambitious plans to grow Porsche's volume, and thankfully the additional models are not all SUVs. One exciting project is a brand-new mid-engine sports car destined to challenge the pace-setting Ferrari 458 Italia.

    Finding Mimo

    If we read correctly the smoke signals that rise from the Weissach think tank, the new project, which is codenamed 960, has nothing much to do with the high-tech 918 Spyder. Instead, Porsche is moving heaven and earth to make 960 the lead car for the new platform. Although it still has not been signed off, due to political issues and a lack of a firm commitment on part of the other brands involved, the new platform, called Mimo, is known in-house as MSB-M, short for modular sports car matrix, mid-engine version. Earmarked to go into production in just over four years, the Porsche 960 (for lack of a better designation) would still share components with the next 911 due in 2018. How is that? Because MSB-M incorporates a second bloodline labeled MSB-H with the H standing for Heckmotor, German for rear-engine.

    Spanning a wide range

    At this point, little is known about how and to what extent the new architecture differs from the short-lived MSS modular sports car system reserved for the next Lamborghini Gallardo (due in 2013) and the new Audi R8 (coming in 2015). It certainly needs to be more flexible, to make provisions for rear- and mid-mounted engine installations, and it probably needs to encompass three different size and cost patterns to span the full line-up from the upcoming VW Blue Sport over to the next-generation 911, the Gallardo, the Murcielago, and the Porsche 960. To further complicate matters, MSB must be able to accommodate both rear-wheel drive and all-wheel drive, be compatible with various body styles and materials, and be able to house in-line engines, flat fours and sixes, as well as the complete V-6/V-8/V-10/V-12 spectrum.

    Fighting Ferrari with a flat six

    An earlier proposed Ferrari fighter from Zuffenhausen was a closer kin to the 918 Spyder, with a carbon fiber structure, and was to be powered by a twin-turbo V-8. But Porsche decision-makers were not happy with this high-end pitch, so now, with the 960, we’re looking at a more mundane materials mix and a twin-turbo 3.8-liter boxer six, which should be good for 600 hp and 555 pound-feet of torque. Why go for a six when your target car is fitted with a V-8? Because the flat six is more compact, helps to lower the center of gravity, is more efficient as well as slightly cheaper to build, and it offers that unique Porsche touch. Likely offered in both coupe and roadster guise, the 960 will be priced on the high side of 200,000 Euro when it debuts in September 2015.

    - Article by Georg Kacher

    - Illustrations: Autobild/Larson

    Porsche-plans-Ferrari-fighter_Automobile-article

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Porsche mulls flat-8 engine for Ferrari rival...

    Porsche is considering engineering a flat-eight boxster engine for its Ferrari-rivalling supercar, company bosses have admitted.

    At the first unveiling of the new 991-series 911, Wolfgang Hatz, Porsche head of Research and Development said such an engine was ‘possible’. He told Autocar: "We have to go into that market properly equipped."

    This week Porsche CEO Mathhias Müller said he was ‘irritated’ that Porsche didn’t compete with Ferrari in the 250,000 Euros-plus price range. He said there was space for a car like the seminal 1980s high-tech 959 model.

    Porsche engineers have long been frustrated by the fact that the company’s iconic flat-six engine cannot be extended much beyond 4.0-litres. It’s also felt that in the Ferrari-dominated market, eight cylinders are a pre-requisite.

    Moving to a larger engine would also differentiate the new model from the new 911 and next-generation Cayman range. It’s thought that the creation of such an engine has been made easier by the engineering working currently being done on the new turbocharged flat-four engine, which will be offered in Porsche’s planned entry-level roadster. This all-new motor is thought to be modular, allowing it to be extended into the next-generation flat-6 and a flat-8.

    Hatz also said that a development of the Carrera GT’s ultra-compact transmission could be used for the new model. Such a transmission would free-up space for the use of the longer eight-cylinder engine.

    "We could develop it, of course, One of the key issues is where we put the differential, but it is a possibility," he said.

    In 1969 Porsche built two flat-eight equipped versions of the mid-engined 914, one of which was given to Ferry Porsche (Ferdinand Porsche’s son) for his 60th birthday. The other is in the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart. Despite the concept’s age, the 3.0-litre naturally-aspirated engine was still good for nearly 300bhp.

    "The rare 914/8 from 1969. The flat-eight engine was good for nearly 300bhp"

    Porsche-mulls-flat-8-engine_Autocar-link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Thanks!


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

     This sounds very exciting! Thanks for the post.


    --

     


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Wow! Interesting.


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

     Flat 8?!


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Very cool! Smiley


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Porsche 960 supercar (2015)

    -- Article by Georg Kacher (artist's impression by Christian Schulte)

    (27 September 2011)

     

    Porsche is developing a new mid-engined supercar slap bang in Ferrari 458 Italia territory. Don't confuse this with the range-topping Porsche - the new Porsche 960 supercar will sit below the new 918 hybrid hypercar but above the maximum-attack 911s at launch in 2015.

    Codenamed project 960, Porsche's new mid-engined supercar is now likely to be based on the VW Group's new Mimo platform which will eventually supersede the rear-engined 911 package.

    Originally, Porsche had scoped out the existing 9X1 / 991 / 911 hardware for its new 458 fighter, but this plan has now been dropped. Only a bespoke, mid-engined architecture is deemed worthy of a car expected to top out at around £200,000.

    Why not twin the Porsche 960 supercar with the 918?

     

    If we read the smoke signals that rise from the Weissach think tank right, project 960 has nothing much to do with the high-tech 918 Spyder anymore. Instead, Porsche is moving heaven and earth to make 960 the lead car for the new Mimo platform, which still has not been signed off due to political issues and a lack of a firm commitment on part of the other brands involved (that's you, Audi).

    Mimo is now known in-house as MSB-M, short for modular sports car matrix, mid-engined version. Earmarked to go into production in September 2015, the Porsche 960 would therefore be based on the same components set as the next 911 due in 2018.

    How come? Because this new components set incorporates a second bloodline labelled MSB-H with the H standing for Heckmotor, German for rear-engined.

    Mimo architecture: from VW Bluesport to supercars

    At this point, little is known about how and to what extent the new architecture differs from the short-lived MSS modular sports car system reserved for the next Gallardo (2013) and the new R8 (2015). It certainly needs to be more flexible to make provision for two different engine installations, and it probably needs to encompass three different size and cost patterns to span the full line-up from the VW Bluesport over 991 and Gallardo to the Murcielago and the new Porsche 960.

    To further complicate matters, MSB must be RWD and AWD compatible, comply with various bodystyles and materials, and be capable of accommodating inline engines, flat fours and sixes as well as the complete V6/V8/V10/V12 spectrum. The engineers will certainly be busy!

    When it was still known as 961, the Ferrari fighter from Zuffenhausen was likely to be powered by a twin-turbo V8, and it did tap the 918 Spyder for inspiration in terms of design and carbonfibre structure.

    But since the beancounters were not happy with this high-end pitch, we're now looking at a more mundane matrix equipped with a twin-turbo 3.8-litre boxer good for 600bhp and 550lb ft of torque.

    A six-pot supercar: downsizing in action

    Why go for a six when your target car is fitted with a bigger-displacement V8? Because the flat six is more compact, helps to lower the centre of gravity, is quantifiably more efficient as well as slightly cheaper to build, and offers that unique Porsche touch. Priced on the creepy side of €200,000, the new 2015 Porsche 960 will likely be available in coupé and roadster guise.

    2015-Porsche-960-Coupe_Car-Magazine-article

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    I'm not sure that I'm a 100% believer in that article.

    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Audi R8 (2014): "Audi's plan to replace its mid-engined supercar..."

     

    audi-r8-supercar-2014.jpg
     
    -- Article by Georg Kacher (artist's impression by Motor Forecast / R Varicak)
     
     
    (19 December 2011)
     
    Audi is gearing up to replace the R8 supercar in spring 2014 and the next R8 is tipped to follow an evolutionary look, as depicted in our new artist's impression.
     
    But it's not the first change to the R8. Later in 2012, Audi will give the R8 a mild facelift and tech update. It will be fitted with a seven-speed dual-clutch transmission instead of the sequential six-speeder, the improved MMI hard- and software we know from the latest A6, the power output of the V10 increases from 525bhp to 540bhp, and at the end of 2012 the limited-edition electric RSe will satisfy those Prius owners who crave a bit more zero-emission grunt.
     
    Audi R8: the new 2014 Audi supercar
     
    In early 2014, Audi will replace the R8 and the second-generation German supercar pursues an evolutionary styling theme. According to the Ingolstadt grapevine, the sideblades and the manual transmission disappear, the packaging is a little more generous here and there, and the MMI system switches to a single multi-functional colour monitor positioned between speedometer and rev counter.
     
    Plenty of new tech will be sprinkled on the new R8. A head-up display will be available as an option and the redesigned lights are variable-intensity LED units.
     
    Carbon and aluminium for the next 2014 R8
     
    The current 100% aluminium-based ASF structure gives way to a multi-material mix on the new R8, introducing carbonfibre for the rear firewall, the transmission tunnel and the B-posts that double-act as rollover protection elements.
     
    This approach makes the body in white 24 kilos lighter and 13% stiffer, CAR understands. The total kerbweight is expected to tumble by a stout 100kg.
     
    Engines in the new Audi R8
     
    While the base model remains loyal to the naturally aspirated V8 good for 450bhp, the power output of the V10 version goes up to 550bhp. Mid-term, the relatively thirsty if charismatic ten-cylinder may give way to a turbocharged 4.0-litre V8 good for 600bhp; the latter is the same engine you'll find in the Audi S8 and, soon, the Bentley Continental GT.
     
    One year after the R8 coupe, the new R8 Spyder should be ready to charm the in-crowd with a launch in 2015.
     
    The new R8, and its Lamborghini twin, the Gallardo replacement coming in 2013, will both stick with the MSS (modular sports car system) architecture masterminded by Audi.
     
    But the generation after that will be part of MSB-M (modular rear-wheel drive maxtrix, mid-engined variant) conceived by Porsche...
     
     
    Smiley SmileySmiley

    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Great to see. Would love to see Porsche develop the next R8 architecture and then give it the Porsche treatment.


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Now that looks MUCH better than the R8. (I'm really not fond of the current R8).

    I'm really looking forward to the 961.


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    So...no mid engined 200.000€ Porsche until 2020?


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Enzo II:

    So...no mid engined 200.000€ Porsche until 2020?

    I'm not quite sure what you mean or what information you are referring to but I'd suggest you keep focusing on two numbers from the article: 2014 and 2015Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    The photoshop of that 2014 Audi R8...

    audi-r8-supercar-2014.jpg

    ...reminded me of another mid-engined supercar design that I'd like to see on the road...

    Porsche 918 RSR -- Design Concept -- Video Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Porsche 960 as imagined by Evo magazine...

    Porsche-960-Coupe_Evo-magazine_Rennteam.jpg

    ...600bhp, V8 engine, mid-engined, 2015 launch... Smiley

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    That's awesome!


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Porsche planning to expand range of "mid-engined" sports cars...

    Thanks a lot, but it;s not readable...


     
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