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    Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    car (CGT) one would think Porsche would produce a high performance car (Boxster is not) but substantially less in cost than the CGT. The old Porsche 911 series has had its day. It is tired looking and frankly quite boring.

    If Porsche would build a car along the lines of the CGT to compete with the 360, Gallardo and others with a great exhaust but without the silly racer tail, I certainly would consider buying a Porsche again. I am not talking here about performance only. I am talking styling, sex appeal, exclusivity,performance and cost.

    Build a limited production $150-200,000 car mid engine distinguishing it from the old rear engine styling and they would have many buyers knocking at their door.

    Then again their market niche is probably boy racers.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    car (CGT) one would think Porsche would produce a high performance car (Boxster is not) but substantially less in cost than the CGT. The old Porsche 911 series has had its day. It is tired looking and frankly quite boring.

    If Porsche would build a car along the lines of the CGT to compete with the 360, Gallardo and others with a great exhaust but without the silly racer tail, I certainly would consider buying a Porsche again. I am not talking here about performance only. I am talking styling, sex appeal, exclusivity,performance and cost.

    Build a limited production $150-200,000 car mid engine distinguishing it from the old rear engine styling and they would have many buyers knocking at their door.

    Then again their market niche is probably boy racers.




    Im sorry you are not satisfied with Porsche's latest offerings, but the cars you are referring to, though not mid engined are the GT2, GT3, and Turbo. The Turbo does a find job standing up against both the Gallardo and the 360. Thank you much.

    Perhaps a high performance Boxster would satisfy your taste?

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    If Porsche would build a car along the lines of the CGT to compete with the 360, Gallardo and others with a great exhaust but without the silly racer tail, I certainly would consider buying a Porsche again. I am not talking here about performance only. I am talking styling, sex appeal, exclusivity,performance and cost.

    Build a limited production $150-200,000 car mid engine distinguishing it from the old rear engine styling and they would have many buyers knocking at their door.

    Then again their market niche is probably boy racers.



    Well Nick,

    You might consider the idea that maybe Porsche's idea of exclusivity is not building cars that you would consider buying. That just might be their way of staying out of the boy racer niche!

    fritz

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    Then again their market niche is probably boy racers.



    And this from a man who drives a 360!!!!!!!!

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Maybe Porsche just isn't the brand for you? The 360 is quite a nice car? No? Perhaps you just really like Porsche better than Ferrari and are longing for a CGT??? I wish they weren't sold out either.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    M5er said:
    Maybe Porsche just isn't the brand for you? The 360 is quite a nice car? No? Perhaps you just really like Porsche better than Ferrari and are longing for a CGT??? I wish they weren't sold out either.



    Well M5er,

    Nick keeps telling us that Porsche hasn't been able to shift all 1500 CGT's yet, so it can't be a problem that they are all sold out.

    Between you and me, I think he would secretly really like a CGT, and he's just pee'd because he as not been able to raise the ante.

    fritz

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:The old Porsche 911 series has had its day. It is tired looking and frankly quite boring.



    Yeah, the 996 model line-up was really a failure since its introduction, I'm surprised they didn't pull the plug on it shortly afterwards or even continuing after that horrible 993, I mean the 996's didn't sell at all over these years clearly indicating how people disliked the 911; the carrera's and TT's were boring to drive in the streets, the GT3's & GT2's were the laughing stock at the track, those rear seats are so impractical and their poor driveability in all types of roads and conditions made them garage queens, did I mention they are as unreliable and high maintenance as an italian sportcar? and at twice the price but without calling twice the attention you deserve for the pricetag. Yep, who cares anymore about the upcomming 997 or 998 after that... hope Porsche AG realises the 911 series has had its day before they invest anymore R&D on the next 911, it just doesn't grab enough attention or serves for making personal image statements, who cares about how they drive and feel, how they perform, how they are engineered, how practical or driveable in real life or how reliable sportcars are.

    You are really entertaining Nick, thanks for the laugh

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    I am not sure which planet you all are on but buying a new CGT in the US is quite easy and they are available. The problem is waiting until 2006 to get one or paying SLIGHTLY over msrp to get one within 6 months. As a matter of fact some who have placed deposits are backing out and the dealerships will sell at MSRP.

    Whether I can afford one is my business. However this much I will say; if I won a lottery tomorrow I would not buy a CGT, Enzo or any other expensive supercar.

    Porsche makes a very functional car. However on the street particularly in the US it is nothing special. Can it beat most of the competition on a track? Probably. If that is your thing, great. Drive around with a sign in the window giving your track numbers.

    Wake up; Porsche is well aware their cars are headed for some difficult times. The company is presently transforming itself into something other than a premier sport car manufacturer. I offer them advise as to attracting a market segment which I believe they can greatly profit.

    Otherwise my friends it will be SUV's and fast sedans.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    Whether I can afford one is my business.



    You are more than titled to your opinion, but try not to take things to a personal level. This is only a forum.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Porsche makes a very functional car. However on the street particularly in the US it is nothing special.



    You're talking about LOOKS, we're talking about drive feel, drive passion and drive dynamics.
    A yellow 360 is the perfect car for you, Nick and I don't say that to hurt you. I mean it, to each it's own as my wife always says...
    BTW: why didn't you buy a yellow Hummer H2 instead of the Cayenne?

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    In the US everything is about appearance and I guess you are right in saying that the CGT is nothing on the street in the US.
    People generally only look at the badge and it wears the wrong badge to score at the nightclub or at the countryclub.
    A ferrari will always create more attention to the general public whatever the design of the Porsche.
    So when evaluating the CGT in that respective I guess its way overpriced.

    It says a lot about a person when you buy a car on those criterias, doesn't it Nick? Just kidding...

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    RC I am now a proud owner of a 2004 RED Spider F1. I leave the clutch to boy racers.

    CF your right. Appearance does matter especially if you cannot use the car for performance reasons. In the US, the highest posted speed limit is 70mph. However, I was in Germany over Christmas and though I loved the Autobahn, I found it had more speed traps and radar than any road in the US.

    Never forget "you are what you love and the type of car you drive speaks volumes as to who you are".

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    Never forget "you are what you love and the type of car you drive speaks volumes as to who you are".



    It sure does.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Never forget "you are what you love and the type of car you drive speaks volumes as to who you are".



    Yes, but don't forget also that the driver speaks even louder, the same car can speak totally different things depending on the owner and the reasons why he bought the car also, and what you think the car is speaking for you may not be what some people are hearing. Buying a sportcar for non-performance reasons, a truck for one-person commuting or grocery shopping, or a sportsedan for street drag-racing doesn't speak highly of the person driving it, no matter how good the vehicle is, though I find most of these drivers may sometimes be unaware of it.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Most Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, etc., drivers I know do not buy their cars because of the badge, but because they truly enjoy the experience they have behind the wheel. I'd never buy something I thought looked good a didn't drive even better.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    However, I was in Germany over Christmas and though I loved the Autobahn, I found it had more speed traps and radar than any road in the US.



    Maybe you missed a point: we don't have a speed limit on the Autobahn.
    OK, there are some parts where there is an individual speed limit depending on the region but usually there is no speed limit.
    The only time I saw several speed traps on the Autobahn was on my way to Leipzig. In Bavaria (where I live), I only saw once a speed trap but several times those "famous" video distance controls (they check the distance to the front car, no matter how fast you are).
    If you saw those weird devices hanging down from bridges (and scaring off foreigners )...they're just so called telematic devices to check on traffic density, weather, etc.

    And there are nice country roads, even pretty deserted ones where you can see one or two km ahead...no need for a "poser". Don't get me wrong, the 360 is a beautiful car and performance isn't bad either but put me in a GT3 and I'm a happy camper. Another "good" thing about Porsche cars, especially in Europe: the envy "factor" isn't that big. A Porsche is a pretty "common" car over here but people still admire it. A Ferrari is too flashy and people usually associate only "bad" things with it, especially if you're young (=pimp) or even if you're older (=midlife crisis). I know this is BS but Europe is full of prejudice and even here we have people who don't understand why one drives a Porsche because nobody can really drive that fast.
    It is actually the same mentality as with earning money: if somebody is working hard (from HIS point of few) and is very intelligent (from HIS point of view), he cannot understand that other people who seem to be lazier and less intelligent make more money and own a beautiful and expensive car.
    They must be doing illegal things then...

    I remember a young student asking me (when I still had my 996 Turbo) at the fuel station: "Who do I have to kill or what crime do I have to commit to be able to own such a car?" Well...

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Nberry,

    The Spider is a nice car. Did you ever question why Ferrari sales it about 50 times less than 911, the price difference is just 2 times :-)

    Anyway I agree the CGT should cost at least one and half more and I am pretty sure it will :-) at least (probably twice more) 5-6 years from now down the road. Thanks Porsche and Ferrari Enzo will probably keep showing in Gembala3000 rallies :-)

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    At the risk of being flamed, he has a point ... I love the current line-up in many ways, but it seems silly to me that they continue with the rear-engined layout just for the sake of tradition.

    I'm living in Australia (I am of German origin) and my friends always give me a ribbing about German products - that form should always follow function. But then, how does one explain the 911?

    Somebody brought up a thread on rennlist.com not long ago suggesting "the impossible" - merge the 911 and Boxster and bring out a "proper" GT (with usable 2+2 seating.) It was interesting to see, because for the longest time I thought I was the only one who felt this way about it. It might never happen, but it's fun to imagine the possibilities!

    Just my 2c.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    "At the risk of being flamed, he has a point ... I love the current line-up in many ways, but it seems silly to me that they continue with the rear-engined layout just for the sake of tradition."

    What is wrong with rear engine layout? I mean Porsche is not the only one which supports it. As a matter of fact many sport car makers support it for many years (Lotus for example) and if you take any professional racing cars they are all pretty much rear engined. I am not going to talk about weight power distribution since I am not expert in that but I believe rear engine has a lot to it, but just looking at the industry you see many sport car makers German and not supporting rear engine layout.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    lev said:
    What is wrong with rear engine layout? I mean Porsche is not the only one which supports it. As a matter of fact many sport car makers support it for many years (Lotus for example) and if you take any professional racing cars they are all pretty much rear engined. I am not going to talk about weight power distribution since I am not expert in that but I believe rear engine has a lot to it, but just looking at the industry you see many sport car makers German and not supporting rear engine layout.



    Lotus, as far as I know, has never developed a rear-engined car. They have produced prodominately mid-engined cars, and nearly all dedicated racing cars are mid-engined. When I say mid-engined, I mean the engine sits between the wheelbase, not behind the rear axle like in the 911.

    Dynamically, they are a world apart... No one here will argue otherwise.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Dra,

    Its never late to learn :-)

    My mistake, I just decide to unite rear engine and mid engine together for sake of argument against front engine layout. Again I am not an expert in this area (as you could see) but may be the answer is related to power/weight distribution.

    Could you clarify/educate further what do you mean by saying "Dynamically, they are a world apart... No one here will argue otherwise."

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    lev said:
    Dra,

    Its never late to learn :-)

    My mistake, I just decide to unite rear engine and mid engine together for sake of argument against front engine layout. Again I am not an expert in this area (as you could see) but may be the answer is related to power/weight distribution.

    Could you clarify/educate further what do you mean by saying "Dynamically, they are a world apart... No one here will argue otherwise."



    No worries!

    If you were to ask a team of engineers "design a two seater car and put the engine anywhere you please" they would probably be most inclined to place the engine in the middle, behind the seats, but in front of the rear axle. But depending on the engine configuration (or other design requirements/specifications), you might also choose the front.

    Porsche, obviously chose the mid-engined position when given the opportunity start from a clean slate with the Boxster (but then gave the car McPherson struts for suspension? Were the bean counters looking carefully or what? That is another story...)

    The reason you would do this is to obtain a "low polar moment of inertia" (have you seen the video of Tiff Needle driving the McLaren F1?) which is to say : Keep majority of the vehicle's mass as close to centre of the vehicle, so that it is able to change direction (when turning/rotating) quickly.

    If you were to do the opposite (eg. Place the engine at the extreme rear like a 911, or at the extreme front like a Subaru) you are placing more demands on the suspension, tyres and chassis to turn the vehicle (or change direction) because there is extra mass that first must be decelerated and then accelerated in the opposite direction.

    The result of this extra mass, for example in the case of a front engined car is that it (usually) does not want to turn in as quickly as a mid/rear-engined car. But this is not always the case and car's behaviour can be altered a great deal with good suspension design and geometry.

    For a rear-engined car, well, there are enough people here to tell us about what can go wrong. Ever seen a Carrera Cup race? Watch what happens when a car is clipped in a fast corner and rear loses traction - the car usually does a 180 very quickly. Incidently, this happens to a lot of mid-engined cars too (at least in my experience...)

    Sorry to hijack the thread guys...

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The old Porsche 911 series has had its day. It is tired looking and frankly quite boring.




    I'm a 20 year old male and I lust after GT3s far more than 360s or lambos. The reason is that the GT3 is much more of a proper race car in feel and design, and therefore is much more exciting than merely sporty street cars. It's just a little heavy, but could be turned into a street legal cup car with not much trouble.

    I understand what I believe you are trying to say. You're thinking, what would be the "perfect" design for a sports car for the street? I think you are considering performance characteristics, so this really means "best street legal race car" that gets the lowest lap times. So yes, the "perfect" car would have a mid engine layout. The issue is that street cars are so far removed from what would be the best design for the absolute lowest lap times that it really isn't an issue where the motor is (again, in terms of performance, because you CAN make a front or rear engined street car handle as well as a mid engined car that makes compromises for the street). If every other aspect of the car was geared toward optimum performance, then it would matter. Just as an example, even F1 cars are not optimum race cars because they are limited in wheel size and therefore brake size. Probably the closest thing to a perfect racer for the technology of the day was the 917/30 in the can-am series with 1500 hp.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    DRA said:
    At the risk of being flamed, he has a point ... I love the current line-up in many ways, but it seems silly to me that they continue with the rear-engined layout just for the sake of tradition.

    I'm living in Australia (I am of German origin) and my friends always give me a ribbing about German products - that form should always follow function. But then, how does one explain the 911?

    Somebody brought up a thread on rennlist.com not long ago suggesting "the impossible" - merge the 911 and Boxster and bring out a "proper" GT (with usable 2+2 seating.) It was interesting to see, because for the longest time I thought I was the only one who felt this way about it. It might never happen, but it's fun to imagine the possibilities!

    Just my 2c.



    DRA,

    I can see your point abount wanting to see another sportcar model in the line-up with different posibilities. But having it substitute the 911 has been tryied before and didn't work, why? becauase there is nothing wrong with a rear-engine design. How do you make a 2+2 mid-engined car and make it handle well? its been tried too by Ferrari and Maserati in back in the 80's and didn't work. So your only solution is front or rear. Sure putting the engine in front is much cheaper, easier to do, and easier to drive for the common bloke, hence its prefferend by the makers, but does it handle any better? no, and most important which is more fun to drive, a front engined car or a rear engined car? also which has sportier characteristics? whats is better for steering, braking and accelerating in a race car, a 50-50 weight distribution of front engined cars or 40-60 rear-weight bias like mid-enf!gined and rear-engined?

    So yes, technically, the best engine position is a rear-weght biased mid-engined platform but that is incompatible with the practicality of a 911 and also a whole different character in driving dinamics, to the point that its a completely different car, not a substitute car. So the next the best sport configuration is then rear engine - rear weight bias (then front engine RWD and last front engine and FWD). Sure its chasis and suspensions setup is more complicated but with 40 years experience Porsche has made it one of the most balanced cars in the market , sure its more difficult to pack the engine and more expensive too, but even so its pricetag stands fairly well agains its med-engiined competirors, sure its driving dinamics and reactions takes some learning and getting used to and is a bit different to drive fast but thats part of the charm and pleasure, and with todays conservative setups, electronic aids, ect even AWD if you want, a 911 is a safe and driveable as any other car on the street. So can anyone say it doesn't doesn't handle well? the 996 can match or even outhandle many mid-engine cars, the GT2 laps the ring (conservately) in 7:46 just two secs off the carbon fiber 555HP Zonda, the GT3's ruled in racing, the multi-purpose AWD 996TT will outperform most other mid-engined cars in real life situations of the streets with different surfaces, different enviromental conditions, etc., the 996 carerrar puts in a tight spot many more powerfull cars. And more importantly, its boring or non-sporty at the wheel? anybody who has driven one knows the answer... in conclusion, if it work wonders why change it?

    A new model yes, but the 911 will always have a following who appreciates such a particular car, and as time goes by the 911 gets more popular reaches and amazes more people. Ironically, the "mid-engined" Boxster served this purpose very well since it brought many new customers to Porsche who later tried and bought a 911 and would have never thought off or tried one otherwise.

    So for anyone who says the rear-engine is there against function and "only" for tradition, let me ask you this: which is the most succesfull sportcar platform in ALL motorsport history? yes, the rear-engined 911

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Man, when Nick sticks his head up, the keyboards come to life with a vengence. Look at the entertainment value in his one post! An interesting idea presented in the most offensive way possible. Nick is the Chris Ofili of Internet correspondence

    Sure generates a response.

    As far as a baby CGT, bring it on!

    As far as the 911 being boring, it's no more boring than sex: always the same thing, over and over, humpahumpahumpa, but, I don't know, somehow I just keep getting drawn back to it. Must be something about the experience, rather than the appearance.

    Dain

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    I think a high performance version of the Boxster Coupe is all that's required to satisfy a buyer looking for more affordable mid-engined performance than a regular drop-top Boxster. Imagine a 3,000 lb Clubsport Coupe with a 996GT3 motor and brakes for $80k. I'd be highly interested

    No reason this couldn't happily coexist with the 997 range (although it would put pressure on the 997 to make significant improvements over its 996 predecessors)

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    So for anyone who says the rear-engine is there against function and "only" for tradition, let me ask you this: which is the most succesfull sportcar platform in ALL motorsport history? yes, the rear-engined 911



    Carlos, you make some very good points (I've snipped your quote above just to make my response a bit less lengthy.)

    So it seems that many people are still enjoying the 2+2 benefits of the 911? If I read you right, you're saying that the compromises allow the car to fill a niche that no other car maker has really tackled?

    I guess the gist of my original message was - what if? Porsche has shown what they can do (see the Carrera GT) and I was just speculating as to what "might be" or what "could be" for the future.

    Like Grant said in another message in this thread, a lightweight Boxster "Coupe" (Boxoup?) with the right weight, engine and brakes would certainly make things entertaining! Do they have anything like that in the works? (RC? )

    BUT, not meaning to re-fan the flames, the 911 may be a very successful racing car, but I wonder how much that comes down to a "numbers game." 911's often swamp a catagory to the point where they simply outlast the competition through superior endurance/engineering. Perhaps that is part of the appeal.

    Do you remember the BPM series in the 90's? The 911 was up against Ferrari, Lotus and McLaren. Remember what happened? (For those who don't know, this series can be considered the birthplace of the 911 GT1.)

    With that said, I still love all the cars that Porsche make ... The sound, the build quality, the looks. It's just interesting to speculate about what they *could* be making for us in the future!

    -Daniel

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Daniel,

    I kind of agree with you then, I also think Porsche could add a mid-engined model to the line-up between the Boxtster and the CGT, and I would love to see the result. The more sportcars in the line-up the merrier. My only gripe was with it trying to substitute Porsche's icon, which to this day still works wonders, delivers performance and handling envied by other makers and gives much driving pleasure to their owners. Why eliminate it and deprive us from future generations of 911's. Not even the competition can take away from the 911 market niche over these years no matter what they come up with.

    Also, I don't think Porsche could afford to go into a 4th model that would compete so closely to its own 911 (hence the less powerfull Boxtser and out of this world CGT), and in the end I guarantee you, the 911 would still far outsell the mid-engined one and would end up being dropped like the 928. Maybe a GT3 type version of the Boxster, like Grant said, would be more feaseble, and quite a performer too. But right now looks like Porsche is more into developing a 4-door sedan instead

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Since we all now know that the best track configuration is a mid-engine car ( even Porsche prototype racers were mid-engine), we also know that a lot of owners bought a 911 because in real life they might have to pick up their kids from school and still want to drive a sports car. So Porsche keeps updating the 911 flat 6 for the after school crowd and develope a mid-engine V8 (loose the back seats) for the racer crowd. Just think of the extra grunt of a V8 with mid-engine handling! Styling cues from the 911, Boxster and CGT. This would keep most of us happy and gain new customers. How about it Porsche?

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    RC I am now a proud owner of a 2004 RED Spider F1. I leave the clutch to boy racers.




    So, I guess that means you sit down to pee?
    Nick, if you dont like Porsche, you must like baiting those of us that do. I don't frequent the Ferrari boards, are there as many snipes by Porsche loyalists as you post here?

     
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