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    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Bilal, you Daimler-Chrysler passion and enthusiasm clouds you

    Lets compare the SL55AMG vs and the GT2 (since the same would apply to the SLR vs CGT comparisons)

    In a STRAIGHT-LINE, when cruising at high speeds or doing a top speed test the SL55AMG will give you a very stable and secure "feeling" maybe even more than the GT2 since it may "feel" more nervous, but this is a subjective sensation of stability that does not correspond with reality because the minute you have to brake hard or try to make the car change direction you will find you actually have much less stability than the GT2 hence the GT2 can take corners faster at high speed w/o running off the road for example, correct?

    This is why the SL55AMG may lead you to believe its more stable than the GT2 when cruising at high speed, but so will a Greyhound bus, but in reality its the other way around than what you "feel" :

    - the heavier mass (not same as weight) of the SL55 at speed causes it to have a greater inertia, so it wants more to keep going in the same direction and not want to change more, that will make the car less susceptible to small influences to change direction such as cross winds and bumps giving a sensation of stability, like tha car is on rails. But only in straight line, since that same desire to keep going straight will work against you when you have to decelerate or turn into the curve, so when stability really matters you have less.

    - the SL has the same drag coeficcient that the GT2 but it has positive lift (bouyancy) while the GT2 is designed with negative lift. So the higher the speeds, the SL55 will wnat to raise/lift and float as opposed to the GT2, that will greatly reduce your grip and contact to the ground.

    - The SL55 is designed with less downforce than the GT2, which while less downforce helps high speed acceleration and top speed due to the less drag, it will also have less "weight" at high speed, so the GT2 uses that drag to help stick the car to the ground. And more important, the downforce also work in the corners since it adds weight but not the negative effects of mass in the corners such as centrifugal force, weight transfer, etc. This is one of the most important aspects in high speed stability and grip, thast why is so valued in F1's and allows them to achieve such lap times. If they brake a little piece of the front lip for example during the race, their lap curve speeds will drop greatly. Due to their need and use of downforce (and the open wheel design) an F1 has the same aerodinamic drag as a BUS!

    - The SL55's steering is lighter and more numb than a GT2's, this makes the car more confortable to drive and also gives you a sense of stability, but actually what its doing is filtering out the feedback from the steering and wheels in the shape of vibration and nervousness, and this feedback is necessary to maintain a greater control of the car since it lets you know what the car is doing, the weight transfers, the grip of the wheels, the exact direcction of the car, etc and hence greater "real" stability, though it may "feel" more nervous. LAck of steering feedback is one of the thing that drives me nuts the most from a car, along with body roll.

    - the suspension and chasis setup of the SL55 are softer and more confortable than the GT2 which will filter out the irregularities of the road giving you the sensation of floating and "pose" but actually the softer and longer travel setup the less grip, handling and stability, especially at high speeds, due to the greater inertias involved.

    - The SL55 has a higher center of gravety than the GT2, while it gives it a greater ground clearance its also makes it less stable and increases the weight transfers at speed.

    - The SL55 is designed with greater sound insulation than a GT2 therefor blocking the enviromental clues of feeling of speed leading you to believe you are going slower than what you really are giving you the sensation of stability. Buts is a fake sensation from blocking you from the outside of the car. For some people it means more confort, for me it means less pleasure.

    The same can be appplied when comparing an SLR with a CGT. Or these are the same reasons why a lighter DTM CLK version is more stable at high speed than the street CLK-AMG car, though it may not "feel" that way to the average driver, but the sportcar driver will interpret the right clues of stability and will feel the DTM as more stable though more nervous. So when I hear comments in a mag that a SL55 feels like its going slower and more stable than a Murc, thats not necesary a good thing, and the writter may want to get a different job.

    I can't believe this post is so long, somebody else can probably say the same thing only needing a couple of lines... sorry

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Carlos,
    I had just visited your webpage yesterday and that is a nice looking 911 .

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Carlos,
    I had just visited your webpage yesterday and that is a nice looking 911 .

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Thanks Justin!

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Thanks Justin!

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Thanks for that explanation Carlos. Basically, cars which seem stable at high speed are not, and cars with negative buoyancy but more "alive" at speed are better glued to the road.

    Is that the two sentence explanation you were looking for


    Do you agree, that for the average joe, like me, its better not to know what speed you're doing? Since only a skilled driver can make best and safe use of a GT2 at high speed, than an inexperienced driver, such as those who drive AMG's. I think Mercedes cars are designed this way so the average person can have easy access to 500bhp and 200mph, without having to panic about changing gear at 120mph since they're too scared to take their hands off the wheel.

    At least thats what they feel, in reality, as you said, its quite different

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Thanks for that explanation Carlos. Basically, cars which seem stable at high speed are not, and cars with negative buoyancy but more "alive" at speed are better glued to the road.

    Is that the two sentence explanation you were looking for


    Do you agree, that for the average joe, like me, its better not to know what speed you're doing? Since only a skilled driver can make best and safe use of a GT2 at high speed, than an inexperienced driver, such as those who drive AMG's. I think Mercedes cars are designed this way so the average person can have easy access to 500bhp and 200mph, without having to panic about changing gear at 120mph since they're too scared to take their hands off the wheel.

    At least thats what they feel, in reality, as you said, its quite different

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    I personally would agree with you; for the average driver, the SL55 would be a safer car in general because its more progressive at the limit and not so radical in its reactions so you are less likely to get into trouble at the limit, also for the average driver, the cruising confort and relaxation that the SL55 provides may be more valuable than the extreme performance of a GT2. Thats why neither is a better car, each are top notch in their segment. As long as you are not lead to believing that the SL55 is more stable that what it really is at a given situation becuase you may get you into an accident, while the GT2 may come out OK out of that situation due to its greater grip and stability. Thats why I like stiff suspension, sharp steering, low, etc cars since I can't help but driving like if I'm always being late for an appointment so I myself would take a middle option between the SL55 and the GT2, the greater handling/sport-character of the 996TT vs the SL55, and the added safety cushion on the streets of the 996TT vs the GT2

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    I personally would agree with you; for the average driver, the SL55 would be a safer car in general because its more progressive at the limit and not so radical in its reactions so you are less likely to get into trouble at the limit, also for the average driver, the cruising confort and relaxation that the SL55 provides may be more valuable than the extreme performance of a GT2. Thats why neither is a better car, each are top notch in their segment. As long as you are not lead to believing that the SL55 is more stable that what it really is at a given situation becuase you may get you into an accident, while the GT2 may come out OK out of that situation due to its greater grip and stability. Thats why I like stiff suspension, sharp steering, low, etc cars since I can't help but driving like if I'm always being late for an appointment so I myself would take a middle option between the SL55 and the GT2, the greater handling/sport-character of the 996TT vs the SL55, and the added safety cushion on the streets of the 996TT vs the GT2

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Do you agree, that for the average joe, like me, its better not to know what speed you're doing? Since only a skilled driver can make best and safe use of a GT2 at high speed, than an inexperienced driver, such as those who drive AMG's. I think Mercedes cars are designed this way so the average person can have easy access to 500bhp and 200mph, without having to panic about changing gear at 120mph since they're too scared to take their hands off the wheel.

    At least thats what they feel, in reality, as you said, its quite different





    If you want to drive fast on the Autobahn and still be in control you should drive the 996 Turbo Bilal.
    It is extremely stable yet it lets you feel everything that's going on with the car.

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Do you agree, that for the average joe, like me, its better not to know what speed you're doing? Since only a skilled driver can make best and safe use of a GT2 at high speed, than an inexperienced driver, such as those who drive AMG's. I think Mercedes cars are designed this way so the average person can have easy access to 500bhp and 200mph, without having to panic about changing gear at 120mph since they're too scared to take their hands off the wheel.

    At least thats what they feel, in reality, as you said, its quite different





    If you want to drive fast on the Autobahn and still be in control you should drive the 996 Turbo Bilal.
    It is extremely stable yet it lets you feel everything that's going on with the car.

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:

    Do you agree, that for the average joe, like me, its better not to know what speed you're doing?





    Bilal, when you do get your licence to kill, please post your routes in advance on rennteam.com, so we can stay well out of your way!

    Carlos, you tried everything but quoting Newton's Laws of Motion verbatim, and your effort was certainly worth more than two cents in my book, but I think Bilal will only appreciate that if and when he has experienced the different fast car philosophies himself.

    fritz

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:

    Do you agree, that for the average joe, like me, its better not to know what speed you're doing?





    Bilal, when you do get your licence to kill, please post your routes in advance on rennteam.com, so we can stay well out of your way!

    Carlos, you tried everything but quoting Newton's Laws of Motion verbatim, and your effort was certainly worth more than two cents in my book, but I think Bilal will only appreciate that if and when he has experienced the different fast car philosophies himself.

    fritz

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Someone once told me, his girlfriend was driving an SL55 with one hand at the wheel at 155mph eating a sandwich in the other, then she drove the 996 Turbo and was scared to take her hands off the wheel at 120mph to change to 6th gear.


    Thats why I thought, sometimes its better not to know what speed you're doing!

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Someone once told me, his girlfriend was driving an SL55 with one hand at the wheel at 155mph eating a sandwich in the other, then she drove the 996 Turbo and was scared to take her hands off the wheel at 120mph to change to 6th gear.


    Thats why I thought, sometimes its better not to know what speed you're doing!

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    Someone once told me, his girlfriend was driving an SL55 with one hand at the wheel at 155mph eating a sandwich in the other, then she drove the 996 Turbo and was scared to take her hands off the wheel at 120mph to change to 6th gear.


    Thats why I thought, sometimes its better not to know what speed you're doing!



    So you now know the meaning of "Ignorance is bliss"!

    You can learn something new every day, if you want to.

    fritz

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    Someone once told me, his girlfriend was driving an SL55 with one hand at the wheel at 155mph eating a sandwich in the other, then she drove the 996 Turbo and was scared to take her hands off the wheel at 120mph to change to 6th gear.


    Thats why I thought, sometimes its better not to know what speed you're doing!



    So you now know the meaning of "Ignorance is bliss"!

    You can learn something new every day, if you want to.

    fritz

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    Someone once told me, his girlfriend was driving an SL55 with one hand at the wheel at 155mph eating a sandwich in the other, then she drove the 996 Turbo and was scared to take her hands off the wheel at 120mph to change to 6th gear.


    Thats why I thought, sometimes its better not to know what speed you're doing!



    I think it is exactly the other way around. My wife's SLK 32 AMG feels at 250 kph top speed like my former 996 Turbo RS-Tuning at 345 kph. No kidding. Honestly.

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    Someone once told me, his girlfriend was driving an SL55 with one hand at the wheel at 155mph eating a sandwich in the other, then she drove the 996 Turbo and was scared to take her hands off the wheel at 120mph to change to 6th gear.


    Thats why I thought, sometimes its better not to know what speed you're doing!



    I think it is exactly the other way around. My wife's SLK 32 AMG feels at 250 kph top speed like my former 996 Turbo RS-Tuning at 345 kph. No kidding. Honestly.

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Perhaps it is because you know what to look for RC. Many drivers don't know what to do with that "extraneous" information getting fed back through the car. Bilal is basically saying that he doesn't want the ability to recognize a potentially dangerous situation.

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Perhaps it is because you know what to look for RC. Many drivers don't know what to do with that "extraneous" information getting fed back through the car. Bilal is basically saying that he doesn't want the ability to recognize a potentially dangerous situation.

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    Do you agree, that for the average joe, like me, its better not to know what speed you're doing?



    I think it may be the opposite.

    Inexperienced drivers need to watch their speed very carefully so as not to get in too deep. The driving process above 140 MPH becomes intellectual, not completely visceral.

    Braking distances become VERY long compared to slower speeds. And, small deviations in direction that would pass unnoticed at 100 MPH take on the characteristics of a high-g corner above 140 MPH.

    Watch out!

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    Do you agree, that for the average joe, like me, its better not to know what speed you're doing?



    I think it may be the opposite.

    Inexperienced drivers need to watch their speed very carefully so as not to get in too deep. The driving process above 140 MPH becomes intellectual, not completely visceral.

    Braking distances become VERY long compared to slower speeds. And, small deviations in direction that would pass unnoticed at 100 MPH take on the characteristics of a high-g corner above 140 MPH.

    Watch out!

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    In Antwort auf:
    fritz said:
    In Antwort auf:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    Someone once told me, his girlfriend was driving an SL55 with one hand at the wheel at 155mph eating a sandwich in the other, then she drove the 996 Turbo and was scared to take her hands off the wheel at 120mph to change to 6th gear.


    Thats why I thought, sometimes its better not to know what speed you're doing!



    So you now know the meaning of "Ignorance is bliss"!

    You can learn something new every day, if you want to.

    fritz



    the feeling for speed is exponential bilal.
    150 kph is just boring
    200 kph is a relaxed travelling speed.
    at 250 kph conversation stops because of concentration.
    a speed like 250 kph or higher is mentally quite exhausting, because you have to look far in front and have to know what the cars in front of you do, before they know (like others already said).

    cornering is, like CF already said, the next thing.
    there a many people here in germany who travel at 200 kph.
    but only in an straight line - when the curves begin you will never see any MB-car overtake a good driven porsche. thats fact.

    one point concerning the racing-girl: no one who is afraid to shift to 6th at 200 kph in a 996 TTwill go 250 kph eating a syndwich in ANY car.

    best
    rsv

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    In Antwort auf:
    fritz said:
    In Antwort auf:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    Someone once told me, his girlfriend was driving an SL55 with one hand at the wheel at 155mph eating a sandwich in the other, then she drove the 996 Turbo and was scared to take her hands off the wheel at 120mph to change to 6th gear.


    Thats why I thought, sometimes its better not to know what speed you're doing!



    So you now know the meaning of "Ignorance is bliss"!

    You can learn something new every day, if you want to.

    fritz



    the feeling for speed is exponential bilal.
    150 kph is just boring
    200 kph is a relaxed travelling speed.
    at 250 kph conversation stops because of concentration.
    a speed like 250 kph or higher is mentally quite exhausting, because you have to look far in front and have to know what the cars in front of you do, before they know (like others already said).

    cornering is, like CF already said, the next thing.
    there a many people here in germany who travel at 200 kph.
    but only in an straight line - when the curves begin you will never see any MB-car overtake a good driven porsche. thats fact.

    one point concerning the racing-girl: no one who is afraid to shift to 6th at 200 kph in a 996 TTwill go 250 kph eating a syndwich in ANY car.

    best
    rsv

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    rsv said:
    there a many people here in germany who travel at 200 kph.
    but only in an straight line - when the curves begin you will never see any MB-car overtake a good driven porsche. thats fact



    I watch this every day on the german Autobahn. They drive 180-220 kph (seems to be the "magic" barrier ) on the Autobahn in their BMW, Mercedes or Audis and when the first curve comes, even if it is a wide one, they slow down below 180 kph. On country roads, things are even worse. I drive around 110 kph and some people like to pass me with 120 or 130 kph. In the next curve, I usually approach them again because they slow down to 60-80 kph. It is really obvious that people are afraid of curves. And these people should definetely drive slower on the straight line too.

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    rsv said:
    there a many people here in germany who travel at 200 kph.
    but only in an straight line - when the curves begin you will never see any MB-car overtake a good driven porsche. thats fact



    I watch this every day on the german Autobahn. They drive 180-220 kph (seems to be the "magic" barrier ) on the Autobahn in their BMW, Mercedes or Audis and when the first curve comes, even if it is a wide one, they slow down below 180 kph. On country roads, things are even worse. I drive around 110 kph and some people like to pass me with 120 or 130 kph. In the next curve, I usually approach them again because they slow down to 60-80 kph. It is really obvious that people are afraid of curves. And these people should definetely drive slower on the straight line too.

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    All in all, I wouldn't attempt to cruise at 190mph all day, even in a Porsche, let alone an AMG, or indeed any car. Even on a straight autobahn!

    The ability of ones car to get to 186mph, and do so with ease, and bear a Mercedes star is more to do with bragging rights than anything else!

    There aren't many places in the UK one can speed, anything above 105mph is an automatic driving ban. Even some places in Germany are governed by limits. I am not exactly the risk taking person, as RC is, the self confessed "wild driver" Therefore my respect for a fast car halts at pretty much looking at one and thinking "can it really do 200mph?" And yes, when it concerns Porsche's and Ferrari's, the automatic answer is "yes".
    But when I look at a 4 door saloon or a 2 ton Mercedes, and then ask myself the same question, you really need to swallow hard and accept the fact these cars WILL do 200mph+, for other users on here, thats an everyday thing, since you're used to doing those speeds in fast cars, doing it in a comfortable Mercedes takes some acceptance, even from some speed enthusiasts

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    All in all, I wouldn't attempt to cruise at 190mph all day, even in a Porsche, let alone an AMG, or indeed any car. Even on a straight autobahn!

    The ability of ones car to get to 186mph, and do so with ease, and bear a Mercedes star is more to do with bragging rights than anything else!

    There aren't many places in the UK one can speed, anything above 105mph is an automatic driving ban. Even some places in Germany are governed by limits. I am not exactly the risk taking person, as RC is, the self confessed "wild driver" Therefore my respect for a fast car halts at pretty much looking at one and thinking "can it really do 200mph?" And yes, when it concerns Porsche's and Ferrari's, the automatic answer is "yes".
    But when I look at a 4 door saloon or a 2 ton Mercedes, and then ask myself the same question, you really need to swallow hard and accept the fact these cars WILL do 200mph+, for other users on here, thats an everyday thing, since you're used to doing those speeds in fast cars, doing it in a comfortable Mercedes takes some acceptance, even from some speed enthusiasts

    Re: You won't believe this.... SL600 0-60 in 3.6

    Quote:
    Bilal Siddiqui said:
    ... these cars WILL do 200mph+, for other users on here, thats an everyday thing, since you're used to doing those speeds in fast cars, doing it in a comfortable Mercedes takes some acceptance, even from some speed enthusiasts



    Remember; Downforce = Safety

    Comfort may be an illusion.

     
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