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    997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Background info - I have a 06 997 C4S / sport exhaust / aero kit / 6K miles... I am considering; 1st choice a used 997 GT3 (2K miles or so) provided it gets traded back to dealer or 2nd a new 997 TT. Either choice will be a hit on my current car of $35K (list $120K / trade or consign $85-90K). I like my car but miss the speed of TT (always had TT prior). The new Excellence mag reviews the Champion F77 which was very favorable, which may be a 3rd option for my car is the engine mods, wheels, suspension which is considerably more cost efficient then trading my car an moving to GT3 or TT. I am looking if anyone has experience with the 997S with engine mods and what does that do to warranty.

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    you seems to have a nice car, but you're missing an extra punch... a hardly used 997 GT3 is very difficult to find today, and you'll probably pay "as new" money for it..engine mods WILL void your warranty, but it will be the least expensive way of breathing new life into your car, without taking a big depreciation hit and/or forking out big sums of cash... and by the way, the F77 is the sweetest modified normally aspirated 997S I have ever seen... GO FOR IT!

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Have you considered the X51 upgrade? Will give you very similar to GT3 output without the cost of change.

    I know X51 is expensive for what it is, but you have to consider the total cost of ownership. X51 fitted to a car will increase its value (slightly) come resale, any other aftermarket mods will damange the value. You would need to factor this in to the "total cost".

    X51 may give you what you want for a fraction of the cost. Otherwise go for the TT - I think a real GT3 will seem too uncompromising for somebody who is used to the luxury of a TT or 997S.

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    a

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    b

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    a) What colour is that, its very "unusual"...

    b) What relevance to this thread do those pics have???

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    i was unaware of a X51 upgrade at the dealer... thx for the tip i will check it out

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    it is overly priced as a retro-fit... get the F77... more exotic and more interesting... I would only get the X51 as a factory installed option, not as a dealer retro-fit... unless you don't mind your engine being taken apart and put back together...

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Quote:
    Adam2S said:

    What relevance to this thread do those pics have???




    Read the first two posts why don't you.... a clue - F77

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Sounds like the 997 TT is the best option for you. IMHO

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Quote:
    jte said:
    I like my car but miss the speed of TT (always had TT prior).



    I would guess you are tracking the car If not where are you able to drive it to tell you are missing the speed of the TT? Sure we can go down the highway and hit 100+ mph but I would think to really tell the difference you would need to be on a track. On a track you could "air it out" and really see the difference.

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Also I guess it comes down to how much the "speed" is worth to you? If you really must have it go for the TT and be done with it. I purchased an expensive preamp for my stereo years ago and I was complaining how much it cost. The dealer told me you only cry once when you pay for it. After that it's all heaven. He was right. I cried when I laid down the credit card but when I got home and hooked it up I was on Cloud Nine....

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Hey guys..what exactly do (is) F77 ?? Ive never heard of it (them) !?!

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    I don't know what is involved in the F77 kit but I got the X51 as a retrofit on my car. With it came a new intake, new throttle body, new airbox with dual inlets, new cylinder heads, new exhaust manifolds (my car already had the PSE) and an ECU reprogram as well as a third, center mounted front radiator with all related hardware. It seems that, if any kit out there is not as thorough as this, maybe their manufacturer's claims aren't as reliable as Porsche's. Porsche sells ALL these parts as a kit to go from 355 to 381 hp and I would be sceptical about anyone claiming substantial gains without getting cylinder heads, throttle body and other key parts. I may be wrong but opted for the X51 as insurance that my car would have real gains and my warranty wouldn't be voided, as well as the fact that this is the way I wanted the car when I ordered it at the dealer. Apparently, Porsche didn't have any kits available around January/February of 2006 to install in cars ordered with the X51 from a dealer - as was my case - because they were being allocated to the 50 Club Coupe Carrera Ss that were being built at the time. I don't think this will add much to its resale value and this car for me is a keeper... therefore, price wasn't a consideration.

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    Hey guys..what exactly do (is) F77 ?? Ive never heard of it (them) !?!



    Here's some info....

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Appologies John re the earlier "whats the relevance" question. I see the F77 now!


    How silly of me not to recognise the colour of the paint as "Man from Chile" grey. That well known colour!!!!

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    I wanted to share with you guys something that happened this past February at my PCA Region's Driver Education event. One of the drivers - who is well known to the members in our region - drives a 2000, 3.4 L 996 which is bone stock as far as the engine is concerned but has some suspension upgrades. He is in the black group which consists of the most experienced drivers that attended the event. He lapped twice a brand new 997 Turbo and a 997 GT3 that were in his run group in successive runs, not just once. This may illustrate the point that the car you have may be able to do a lot more than you think it can. The limiting factor here sometimes is the driver and it's a good investment to improve our skills so that we can make the best use of the car we have. Then, upgrading to a faster car makes sense since one has already mastered the presently owned one.

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Was he by chance the Man from Chile?

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Quote:
    Adam2S said:
    Appologies John re the earlier "whats the relevance" question. I see the F77 now!


    How silly of me not to recognise the colour of the paint as "Man from Chile" grey. That well known colour!!!!




    LOL

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    1) Thanks John H for the f77 info
    2) I have decided to use this time to announce that I am infact; 'the man from chile'. Its been hard keeping it a secret but I feel this is the right time..it wont be long before I slip back again, deep into the jungle..

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    1) Thanks John H for the f77 info
    2) I have decided to use this time to announce that I am infact; 'the man from chile'. Its been hard keeping it a secret but I feel this is the right time..it wont be long before I slip back again, deep into the jungle..



    Will you be taking your Satin Black Accents with you?

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    How are you finding the X51......have you noticed a 'big' difference before and after?

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Quote:
    John H said:
    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    1) Thanks John H for the f77 info
    2) I have decided to use this time to announce that I am infact; 'the man from chile'. Its been hard keeping it a secret but I feel this is the right time..it wont be long before I slip back again, deep into the jungle..



    Will you be taking your Satin Black Accents with you?



    Naaah...i leave those at home most of the time, I just bring my 'smoked side-markers' with me incase I get hungry...

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    I've been dying for so long to know exactly what the F77 consisted of... the details ain't even on their website!!! thanks John H

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Quote:
    cibergypsy said:
    I don't know what is involved in the F77 kit but I got the X51 as a retrofit on my car. With it came a new intake, new throttle body, new airbox with dual inlets, new cylinder heads, new exhaust manifolds (my car already had the PSE) and an ECU reprogram as well as a third, center mounted front radiator with all related hardware. It seems that, if any kit out there is not as thorough as this, maybe their manufacturer's claims aren't as reliable as Porsche's. Porsche sells ALL these parts as a kit to go from 355 to 381 hp and I would be sceptical about anyone claiming substantial gains without getting cylinder heads, throttle body and other key parts. I may be wrong but opted for the X51 as insurance that my car would have real gains and my warranty wouldn't be voided, as well as the fact that this is the way I wanted the car when I ordered it at the dealer. Apparently, Porsche didn't have any kits available around January/February of 2006 to install in cars ordered with the X51 from a dealer - as was my case - because they were being allocated to the 50 Club Coupe Carrera Ss that were being built at the time. I don't think this will add much to its resale value and this car for me is a keeper... therefore, price wasn't a consideration.



    It's only 26 HP for how much money?
    Plus the added weight of the new radiator and plumbing in front?
    I am certain Porsche has many goals with X-51 - extracting the most HP is not the only one.
    First they want to be certain they add a little power but not more than say a GT3 or Turbo or the next model - this means just a little tap into the power reserves, next they want to make it exclusive (read - high price), and finally they want to ensure that they do not hinder reliability in any way.
    All this does not mean that the aftermarket can not match those HP gains easily (perhaps with some cost in reliability). Of course the aftermarket is not concerned about warranty issues/cost so they will forgo the extra radiator in most cases (not the good supercharger kits).

    The most important factors in generating HP (using X-51 or anything for that matter) are the Intake, exhaust and computer mods to take advantage of the intake and exhaust. The more violent the explosion the better! There are many excellent choices out there to accomplish this (looks like F77 uses Tubi and ECU mods). Most of these will leave your warranty intact, cost less than 6K total and give you AT LEAST 26 HP.

    If you really want to speed things up then, for almost half the price of X-51, you can supercharge your car. I have seen and heard a 997S with a supercharger and it is wicked!

    If you just go with the intake/exhaust/chip upgrade then just keep your old parts and either sell them with the car or bolt them back on when you sell the car (and keep the aftermarket parts). In either case it will not hurt resale value (unless you foolishly discard the old parts when you do the upgrade). How could it?

    Again, just because Porsche charges 18K for 26HP does not mean this is reasonable and no body else can do it for less. That logic is not based in fact.

    I know there is at least one of you ready to denounce 'ALL THE CHEAP MUFFLERS' out there (without having tied them).

    I also understand that if you add up the HP claims some make for these part upgrades one can get carried away with numbers like 50 -60 exta HP. I am not claiming that by any stretch. What I do suggest is that the combo of new mufflers, sport cat, a real header and ECU programing will generate at least 26+ HP (and lose around 30 lbs off the rear.)

    OK, now you can send your hate mail for me suggesting the aftermarket.

    Peace

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    Quote:
    cibergypsy said:
    I don't know what is involved in the F77 kit but I got the X51 as a retrofit on my car. With it came a new intake, new throttle body, new airbox with dual inlets, new cylinder heads, new exhaust manifolds (my car already had the PSE) and an ECU reprogram as well as a third, center mounted front radiator with all related hardware. It seems that, if any kit out there is not as thorough as this, maybe their manufacturer's claims aren't as reliable as Porsche's. Porsche sells ALL these parts as a kit to go from 355 to 381 hp and I would be sceptical about anyone claiming substantial gains without getting cylinder heads, throttle body and other key parts. I may be wrong but opted for the X51 as insurance that my car would have real gains and my warranty wouldn't be voided, as well as the fact that this is the way I wanted the car when I ordered it at the dealer. Apparently, Porsche didn't have any kits available around January/February of 2006 to install in cars ordered with the X51 from a dealer - as was my case - because they were being allocated to the 50 Club Coupe Carrera Ss that were being built at the time. I don't think this will add much to its resale value and this car for me is a keeper... therefore, price wasn't a consideration.



    It's only 26 HP for how much money?
    Plus the added weight of the new radiator and plumbing in front?
    I am certain Porsche has many goals with X-51 - extracting the most HP is not the only one.
    First they want to be certain they add a little power but not more than say a GT3 or Turbo or the next model - this means just a little tap into the power reserves, next they want to make it exclusive (read - high price), and finally they want to ensure that they do not hinder reliability in any way.
    All this does not mean that the aftermarket can not match those HP gains easily (perhaps with some cost in reliability). Of course the aftermarket is not concerned about warranty issues/cost so they will forgo the extra radiator in most cases (not the good supercharger kits).

    The most important factors in generating HP (using X-51 or anything for that matter) are the Intake, exhaust and computer mods to take advantage of the intake and exhaust. The more violent the explosion the better! There are many excellent choices out there to accomplish this (looks like F77 uses Tubi and ECU mods). Most of these will leave your warranty intact, cost less than 6K total and give you AT LEAST 26 HP.

    If you really want to speed things up then, for almost half the price of X-51, you can supercharge your car. I have seen and heard a 997S with a supercharger and it is wicked!

    If you just go with the intake/exhaust/chip upgrade then just keep your old parts and either sell them with the car or bolt them back on when you sell the car (and keep the aftermarket parts). In either case it will not hurt resale value (unless you foolishly discard the old parts when you do the upgrade). How could it?

    Again, just because Porsche charges 18K for 26HP does not mean this is reasonable and no body else can do it for less. That logic is not based in fact.

    I know there is at least one of you ready to denounce 'ALL THE CHEAP MUFFLERS' out there (without having tied them).

    I also understand that if you add up the HP claims some make for these part upgrades one can get carried away with numbers like 50 -60 exta HP. I am not claiming that by any stretch. What I do suggest is that the combo of new mufflers, sport cat, a real header and ECU programing will generate at least 26+ HP (and lose around 30 lbs off the rear.)

    OK, now you can send your hate mail for me suggesting the aftermarket.

    Peace



    Well, I have been at PCA meetings where there are members that own companies that prepare cars for racing and DE events that have repeatedly stated that they really doubt that, with today's Porsches, one can get any substantial gains from just an airbox, some exhaust and an ECU reprogram. Their own experience and dyno testing has shown them this. Again, I am stating what they claim. The inside of the engine needs to also be optimized or a displacement increase needs to be considered. With the 996 Powerkit, Porsche also included new camshafts albeit not with the 997S one. When I talked about mods, I wasn't even including forced induction as it is very, very obvious that with forced induction one can get awesome gains with less of an investment than with an atmospheric modification. If I were to use forced induction, I would not settle for anything less that Ruf's conversion. I didn't want forced induction on my car at all... not that there is anything wrong with it, just that I prefer an atmospheric engine.
    Again, who ever said that I thought that just because Porsche charges $18k for 26 hp that nobody else could do the same for less??? Of course that logic is not based in fact but neither is your statement that says that I thought that way!!! Considering forced induction, yes, one can get more than that for less money. For me money wasn't a concern and, if I wanted forced induction while retaining the levels of refinement of a Carrera based car, I would have bought a Turbo.
    Also, you complain about the weight of the extra radiator, what about the weight of a supercharger and related hardware??? It's offset, of course, by the performance gains but so is the extra radiator in my X51 all Porsche Powerkit offset by the performance gain. Remember, the X51 uses new cylinder heads also to take advantage of the new intake and, when I talk intake, I am talking about a new intake manifold/plenum with throttle body as well as the dual inlet carbon fiber airbox, not just an intake as in a new airbox only. In our PCA meetings the emphasis is in making one a better driver by being able to take corners faster and being smoother in transitions. You'll be amazed at how is it possible for a 3.4 L 200o 996 Carrera with a bone stock engine can lap two times in a 20 minute session at Roebling Road a brand new 997 Turbo and a new 997 GT3... well, I've seen it happen all weekend long and it was down to the fact that the 996 driver is one of the best in my PCA Region. Those who are only concerned about more horsepower are just straight line drivers. If one is into DE one would know what they think about "drivers" that are faster in a straight line because of a more powerful car but get passed by when the going gets twisty.

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    In my previous post I meant to say that those who are ONLY concerned about more horsepower and not how the car handles are only straight line drivers.

    Re: 997S C4 - Upgrade Advice

    I agree with you Leawood911...... I did not like the exhaust sound on my 997C2, so fitted EVOMS exhaust and headers, along with BMC air filter........the engine sound is now very nice, and the engine much more willing to rev through to 7K. The likely increase is 22 or so bhp minimum, for just a fraction of the X51.

    The EVOMS stuff is beuatifully made------and fits easily.

    KiwiCanuck

     
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