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    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Whoopsy:

    Porsche have a few GT4RS running at Weissach already since last May..........

     

    With proper engines?


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Porker:
    Whoopsy:

    Porsche have a few GT4RS running at Weissach already since last May..........

     

    With proper engines?

    yes and 9,000rpm...


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Marketing department rules. Its all in the timing.

    I have a PAG internal product slide which shows PDK becomes available to the 718 GT4 generation from Q3 2020. Why wait till Q3 2020? Because if they install a PDK in the 718 GT4 today it would be quicker around a typical european 3 mile circuit than the "current" 991.2 GT3 (manual certainly but PDK also). 

    The 981 GT4 punched way above its weight. The balance of the platform is part of the equation. My 385 bhp GT4 with manual transmission was roughly 1 second per 1 minute lap slower than my 991.1 GT3 PDK. Same driver (I do alot of track days) same track. Thats with a smaller tyre patch (GT4). My 991.1 GT3 had 100 bhp more but the torque to weight ratio was almost identical.

    My 981 GT4 is roughly 0.5s per lap slower than my 991.2 GT3 Manual. Same track same driver. Thats with 120 bhp advantage to the GT3. The GT3 now also has a little more torque N1 Cup2 tyres and slightly improved chassis.

    The new 718 GT3 is now 80 bhp less than my 991.2 GT3. However it has the newer N1 tyres and an improved chassis. I ahve obviously not driven one at the track yet but I suspect the PAG marketing team have ensured that it is 1 second per lap slower than the 991.2 GT3 PDK! That makes it as fast as my manual 991.2 GT3 around the crcuit.

    Now if Porsche launched a 718 GT4 in PDK today it would likely be as quick as their "current" 991.2 GT3 PDK. That cant be done - it would ruin the PAG marketing formula!!!

    So the 992.1 GT3 with come out in PDK and put the 1 second per 1 minute lap back into teh equatuons so when the PDK GT4 is annonced it will fit again nicely within Porsches performance heriachy.....and so life goes on....

    P.S. The real challenge is the GT4RS if and when it breaks cover. This cannot be done until the 992.1 GT3RS is announced for all the above reasons (and it will possibly be at the same time at Geneva in 2021 - similar to how they did it in 32015 with the 991.1 GT3RS and 981 GT4 at the same venue). 


    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    in most car magazines the GT3 & RS punches way above it,s weight against established mid engined competitors - hence with the power advantage over a gt4 I think it is wishful thinking of potential customers......but clever marketing


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    macca993:

    Marketing department rules. Its all in the timing.

    I have a PAG internal product slide which shows PDK becomes available to the 718 GT4 generation from Q3 2020. Why wait till Q3 2020? Because if they install a PDK in the 718 GT4 today it would be quicker around a typical european 3 mile circuit than the "current" 991.2 GT3 (manual certainly but PDK also). 

    No chance.  PDK does not help much at road course for professional driver.  It's main benefit is for drag racing.  Pro driver for Porsche said PDK was only 3 seconds faster than Manual in 991.2 GT3 over 20.6 km Nordschleife and Randy Pobst found difference was 0.2 sec on 2-minute lap of Willow Spring in California.

    However, it is possible that the PDK verison of GT4 will post a bigger improvement, since they may be able to uncork the full torque output of the new 4.0L motor that is currently limited to 420NM (309 ft-lbs) due to this ceiling of the manual gearbox's specification.  Even so, the Manual GT3 is comfortably faster...


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    The real gain from pdk will be a close ratio box - if they choose - instead of that God awful tall and poorly selected manual gear set


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    watt:

    The real gain from pdk will be a close ratio box - if they choose - instead of that God awful tall and poorly selected manual gear set

    It will probably be the same 7spd PDK which doesn’t have great ratios either (7th not a performance gear).  But with more torque, it should pull significantly better than manual.


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Grant:
    watt:

    The real gain from pdk will be a close ratio box - if they choose - instead of that God awful tall and poorly selected manual gear set

    It will probably be the same 7spd PDK which doesn’t have great ratios either (7th not a performance gear).  But with more torque, it should pull significantly better than manual.

    PDK-S gearbox as they call it, 718 GT cars are GT cars so they will get the GT treatment to the gearbox...


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    the-missile:
    Grant:
    watt:

    The real gain from pdk will be a close ratio box - if they choose - instead of that God awful tall and poorly selected manual gear set

    It will probably be the same 7spd PDK which doesn’t have great ratios either (7th not a performance gear).  But with more torque, it should pull significantly better than manual.

     

    PDK-S gearbox as they call it, 718 GT cars are GT cars so they will get the GT treatment to the gearbox...

    on the other hand, pretending that manual GT4 can compete with manual GT3.2 is a bit optimistic.Smiley

     


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    the-missile:
    the-missile:
    Grant:
    watt:

    The real gain from pdk will be a close ratio box - if they choose - instead of that God awful tall and poorly selected manual gear set

    It will probably be the same 7spd PDK which doesn’t have great ratios either (7th not a performance gear).  But with more torque, it should pull significantly better than manual.

     

    PDK-S gearbox as they call it, 718 GT cars are GT cars so they will get the GT treatment to the gearbox...

    on the other hand, pretending that manual GT4 can compete with manual GT3.2 is a bit optimistic.Smiley

     

    It depends on the track really. But in general (most tracks), the GT3.2 is quicker.


    --

    2018 White 911 GT3


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    the-missile:

    It will probably be the same 7spd PDK which doesn’t have great ratios either (7th not a performance gear).  But with more torque, it should pull significantly better than manual.

    Possibly, but it used to be that engine Start/Stop and Cylinder deactivation was never part of GT cars (it is in 718 GT4 and Spyder).  And even the 981 GT4 Clubsport had the regular PDK (they electrically locked out 7th gear, so it became a 6sp PDK with same gearing as 7 spd without 7th gear).


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Grant. I have AIM plots of my car against PDK same course with a driving buddy I spend lots of time with and are fairly similarly matched in pace. PDK pulls 1.2s a lap at this course. Manual looses three upshifts on the back straight which alone leads to a 7-9kmph deficeit at the end of the back straight (we both brake within 10m of each other). The 991.2 GT3 manual box is not long like the GT4 so on this track I need 5th gear in the GT3 vs GT4. We have also found that with the 991.2 GT3 the shift times are slightly slower than with the GT4. The power shifting option on the GT3 is no quicker than the rev hold option on upshift (sport mode) in the GT4. On the ring I think the extra power to teh wheels of the manual will offsset some of this but its lost on a short tight course. Randy and Water can shift quicker than I can but comparing traces between my GT3.1 and GT4 the manual 991.2 GT3 is loosing some time per lap as manual. I swapped cars with my buddy just to get his thoughts and he was adamant it was more time lost than his GT4 also (he now has GT3 PDK). Theres also much more doing on when trail braking and shifting down two gears with one hand on the wheel at the end of a 230kmph straight into a 80kmph corner - its much more difficult to modulate trail braking in the manual whith both hands on teh wheel etc. these are my real life experiences with Aim data and teh cars at same tracks. I had my cars standard with only small change in ge0 (same for each car - max out factory settings for negative camber up front and match at rear etc). My 991.2 GT3 has PCCB but other than that no diffferences. 

    I will caveat by saving I am assuming they will put the GT3 PDK style box in with lightening shifts and no 7th gear as an overide... 


    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Well as another data point, Orthojoe on Rennlist is very fast and his laptimes between PDK and Manual are nearly within the margin of error (a couple tenths on 2-minute laps).

    Your data is interesting - I guess a little bit dangerous to depend on just one example of a PDK car and a Manual car, but considering all the available samples the delta is very small (not zero, but very small).


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Grant. The difference between my fastest lap in the 991.1 GT3 and the 991.2 HT3 manual are indeed within tenths at the same track. However most of the catch up are due to the improvements (chassis, tyres etc) and better mid range torque of the 991.2 GT3. Im fairly sure those were the cars Joe was comparing? Im not sure he owned a 991.2 GT3 PDK but if he did id be suprised if it were not closer to a second faster on a short (3 mile course). Of course it could be that my car is not optimal as it is 17000 miles...who knows....(P.S. I have the ex "Why Manual Metters" car in my signature and it has done alot of road tests with published data so I think its fairly reprsentative of the breed. Porsche gace it a full referesh before selling it.


    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    macca993:

    Grant. The difference between my fastest lap in the 991.1 GT3 and the 991.2 HT3 manual are indeed within tenths at the same track. However most of the catch up are due to the improvements (chassis, tyres etc) and better mid range torque of the 991.2 GT3. Im fairly sure those were the cars Joe was comparing?

    No, pretty sure that he compared both versions of the .2 GT3 (although he only owned 991.1 PDK, 991.2 Manual, and 991.2 RS PDK) - I think the .2 GT3 PDK was borrowed - I'll send him a PM, since my memory isn't very clear  :)


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    That would be good Grant. Id be interested in another data point. Just looking at the traces its quite obvious the manual upshifts create a flat spot on the curve so Im vexed to know how this lost time can be compensated especially where there are three upshifts along a straight. I do have comparable in car footage (which will either validate Im shifting quickly or demonstrated Im hopeless lol) but Id need to shorten teh clips and upload onto youtube which could take me a bit of time.

    Im still of the mind that Porsche themselves know that there is a measurable time difference between these tow transmissions in the GT4 (0-100 times should easily fall of course) so I believe they are sandbagging until they have newer GT3 product announced in order they can justify the price deltas between product. There is no other real reason for a 14 month delay - the hardware and tech is already in place, has been tested on the track with the Clubsport and is already in the other Cayman production vehicles...


    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    macca993:

    That would be good Grant. Id be interested in another data point. Just looking at the traces its quite obvious the manual upshifts create a flat spot on the curve so Im vexed to know how this lost time can be compensated especially where there are three upshifts along a straight.

    While looking for the comparison of .2 GT3 versions on Rennlist from Joe, I did see his mention of two identical 987 Spyders (one with PDK and one with Manual) and he said times down the straight were very close (but Manual actually slightly ahead).  Aside from power lost in the wet clutches, you also have to account for the additional weight of the PDK (37 pounds in GT3).  When combining these figures the end result is very close.

    https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/972221-poll-991-2-gt3-pdk-or-manual-3.html#post13909924

    Post #89

    I sent a request for the relevant comparison and will let you know what/if I receive.

    Here's the Randy Pobst test - notice the spec favored the PDK car (was actually lighter than the Manual, due to options):

    https://www.motortrend.com/cars/porsche/911/2018/2018-porsche-911-gt3-first-test-review/


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    1. Just received answer from Joe:

    "Hey Grant,

    I don’t have any data between a .2 GT3 PDK and .2 GT3 manual.  I do have data for a .2 RS PDK and .2 GT3 manual, though.  You can see a slight drop in speed with shifts in the manual even with flat foot shifting, whereas with the RS PDK, there is zero drop in speed with gear shifts.  I’m looking at the numbers and that drop in speed equates to about .01-.03 seconds per UP shift.  At laguna seca, there are 8 upshifts, so the time difference between the 2 boxes should be between .08-.24 seconds. 

    Joe"

    Mark - You were right about a direct comparison (which would be preferable).

    But, he is saying only a 10th or two 10ths at Laguna (also about what Randy Pobst found at Willow Springs with a heavy Manu).  I also don't think he took into account the power loss of pdk (>10 hp) or weight savings from the Manual (37 pounds, which isn't much but makes a tiny difference to time).


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Hi Grant,

    Thats as I thought. I respect Joes experience but there is no way that decimal place is in the right spot IMO. its not 100th of a second a shift. I had a pistonheads guy look at the traces I ran from the GT4 and 991.1 GT3 and its a very complex equation to calculate the speed drop using the acceleration curve. I can email you his analysis - he was some kind of analysist for a job so really dived down into my AIM .drk files and I also sent him our GT4 driving gurus .vbo files to look at. for the GT4 we had 0.1-0.3s lost to each upshift. I ususpect the GT3 is similar but in any corners with loading its probably on teh higher side compared to the GT3. We have found that the dicky flat shift function in the GT3 does not work as smoothly or as fast when you are loading up the car exiting a corner (maybe half the corners of our reference track). It wou=rks better in a straight line. The GT4 "rev hang" in sports mode is more effective across all senarios although the GT4 box can occassionaly baulk between 2-3 shifts which obviously creates an outlier. 

    I read Randys review and I have not doubt like Joe hes a far more accomplished manual driver than I am but I also dont think its easy to compare the differences between cars on different days, specifications and tyre conditions etc. 

    If the real life difference between a GT3 manual and PDK same generation, specification and tyre condition on same track same day with same driver over say 9-10 corners and 2.7 miles (assumes a fairly technical track)  was 0.24s overall I would eat my hat. My bum and traces across these cars on my local track and even swapping with a buddy of similar lap times suggests we are talking a delat between 991.2 GT3 PDK and Manual of at least 1 second cummulative losses. I can provide a couple of traces from AIM for you to analysis if you would like. For me personally there are three key areas teh manual is slower at the track.

    1). Manual gearbox upshift

    2). Mechnical diff vs e-diff (I found this quite different - a slightly poorly timed downshift can momentarily lock the manual diff - aslo the e diff metters teh power out fo a corner in a far more linear manner and is obviously variable from 0-100). 

    3). Three pedals one hand on the wheel trail braking into a corner from speed vs two pedals both hands on the wheel - the GT3 loves trail braking from speed and I find that its very difficult to get correct braking modulation coming off of the clutch in a manual whereas with the PDK you only have the brake pedal to focus your input resolution on. May just be Im a crap driver or an experience issue....

    4). Ratios. The PDK has a tighter stacked lower gear set and as the up shifts loose an almost impercievable amount of time the car is able to on our local track pick up a small advatange in two coners that I find Im in the wrong gear for in the manual GT3 (i.e. too low in 2nd but slightly too high in 3rd).


    --

     

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     

    2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Thanks The pdk and Manuals were tested multiple times on the Nordschleife with the professional test driver (I forget at the moment which one, but you would recognize his name) said delta of 3 seconds over 74 corners (13 miles).

    I would be curious to see your analyst’s conclusion - sounds interesting!  I’ll send you an email :-)


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Grant:

    Thanks The pdk and Manuals were tested multiple times on the Nordschleife with the professional test driver (I forget at the moment which one, but you would recognize his name) said delta of 3 seconds over 74 corners (13 miles).

    I would be curious to see your analyst’s conclusion - sounds interesting!  I’ll send you an email :-)

    I remember reading that. I believe it was a Kevin Estre's comment on Youtube or Twitter. 3-4 seconds difference.


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    Can someone please point me to Porsches official Ring time for the 991.2 GT3 with manual gearbox? I cant seem to find anything online....


    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    PDK is coming in the GT4...told you guys before. 2020.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    RC:

    PDK is coming in the GT4...told you guys before. 2020.

    The entry level Cayman now with "GT" emblem starting price is taking off from $99k ~ $102k, it will be interesting to see when msrp starts from $150k in the upcoming years with more weight and electric nonsense, can't stop the inevitable  Smiley

     


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    RC:

    PDK is coming in the GT4...told you guys before. 2020.

    at cost...Smiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Cayman GT4 -- Evo review

    macca993:

    Can someone please point me to Porsches official Ring time for the 991.2 GT3 with manual gearbox? I cant seem to find anything online....

    They have never published one (Manual is not for the track indecision ) - think it may have been Lars Kern (thanks, Ducky) who said 3 sec slower than pdk (7:12.8 or so)...


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Cayman GT4 & 718 Spyder -- Pistonheads review

    Speaking of Pistonheads, here's Dan Prosser's review from there; Prosser has written for Evo and I find him insightful.

    Video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_oFjmYhMOE

    Print reviews (with links to forum comments):

    https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-driven/2019-porsche-718-cayman-gt4--driven/40596

    https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-driven/2019-porsche-718-boxster-spyder--driven/40600


    Re: Cayman GT4 & 718 Spyder -- Pistonheads review

    Prosser indeed is very good at what he does.


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Cayman GT4 & 718 Spyder -- Pistonheads review

    Dans review was excellent. I felt he was very honest and not just following the typical jurnalist hyperbole that often permiates the launch of such products. He also picks up strongly on some of the issues I identified with the 981 GT4 product (gearing and thus engine noise vs real world speeds etc). If other respected writers have similar views then 981 GT4 residuals should remain solid for current owners....

    Thanks Grant. Funny how manual isnt for the track unless its their GT4 marketing retroic where all of a sudden "manual is for the track and enthusiats" LOL.

    If you have ever known or spent any time with some of the more senior people in the OEM automotive world you learn very quickly that for the most professional (and often most successful) they talk in terms of packaging, segement and product. then you realise for these guys a Porsche XXX is simply like a new range of gourmet food at the supermarket they are bringing to market. They could equally be doing their jobs successfully in any other industry. They may enjoy cars more than fine food (like most blokes) but for them this is simply a product with margins and targets. As a car enthusiats after a long talk with these guys you realise we are just "the market" or "target audience" and the metrics upon which they are deliveriing the product is so far removed from the fire we feel in our bellies that it seems unreal. Essentially we are somewhat caught in their web and they have us in a corner....

     


    --

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2017 991.2 GT3 Manual, 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia QV, 2017 Macan S (Petrol)


    Re: Cayman GT4 & 718 Spyder -- Pistonheads review

    Very interesting reads . Thanks guys .

    Grant : Probably the '' theoretical ''  difference in time between PDK and manual on a track is not that much with someone changing gears very quickly ...... but , as you know, we hardly ever manage a perfect lap and there is often corrections to do . PDK will make a huge difference in those moments and a bit gain of time ( like changing gear in the middle of the corner and not have to wait to be out of it when you entered in a too low or too high gear , changing up or down for just a few seconds as you might not be in the best possible gear , having the car more stable at very high hard breaking as you can hold the car better with your two hands then with one on the gear level etc.... ) 

     


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


     
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