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    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    but the tough part is to make a sportcar exceed in the combination of all disciplines together, and that is why the 911 is still the benchmark to date, to which all other sportcars when they come out are compared to



    That's the problem! The 911 is no longer that car. Even might arrogant Porsche AG themselves use the legend-in-its-own-time Nissan GT-R as the new benchmark. See http://www.germancarblog.com/2008/09/porsche-911-porsche-cayman-full-story.html.

    Benchmark

    It's good to be a legend in your own lunchtime. Then Porsche will push back the plate, roll up the napkin, drain the dregs from the wine glass and get back to work. Tomorrow the 911 will be back as the benchmark just where it's been for most of its life.

    What other manufacturers can't do that Porsche can is sustain the level of investment and development in improving the core attributes of the car.

    Once Nissan or whoever has sat back on their laurels and gone chasing the development of the next generation Micra the GT-R will gradually slide backwards until Nissan see the need for a halo model. In the meantime Porsche will have had 8 years of refinement and highly profitable sales...

    I think you have mistaken arrogance for a ruthlessly focused dedication to improving the car. "Excellence was expected" is still the mantra of the world's leading sports car company.

    Re: Benchmark

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    Tomorrow the 911 will be back as the benchmark just where it's been for most of its life.

    What other manufacturers can't do that Porsche can is sustain the level of investment and development in improving the core attributes of the car.



    I agree on that one. Porsche, by earning vast amounts of money in the past decade, is much better prepared for the future and upcoming developments. The acquisition of Volkswagen is just a strike of genius, especially if you consider PAG's desolate situation when Wiedeking took over. One thing that is easily forgotten, a vast amount of earnings came from financial activities, less so from the automotive business itself!

    There is no doubt for me that Porsche is still the most successful sportscar company but the majority of "trendy" buyers accepted decisions that I don't - the continuation of M96/96 engines, the awkward options on the US-GT3, the incomprehensible pricing strategy of Cayman vs. Boxster and RS vs. GT3. One cannot even blame Porsche, they just want to run a prosperous company.

    The Mk.2 997 made a huge step into the right direction, let's see what follows.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    wushuhsu said:
    That's the problem! The 911 is no longer that car.



    You are making the rather common mistake of obsessing solely upon statistics and the associated hype.... and blowing-off/ignoring the car's intangibles and nuance and quality and styling and integration and driving feel and fun-factor and heritage. What I'm getting at is, the whole of the damn car itself!!

    The stat page is just numbers, which is very important... But what I've learned from the multitudes of different cars I've owned and driven is that a hot stat sheet does not alone make a memorable ownership, or pull gravity away from an icon.

    All most any kid does when he pulls a magazine off the rack at the Piggly Wiggly with a new hot machine on the cover is fervently race to the article, find the stat sheet, and go "holy-cow, it does blah in blah blah and pulls blah g's in blah!!!!!!!!!!!".... And the more aggressive the styling, the more the kid stares at it agape as if touching the thing would vaporize a limb of his body...

    It's an appeal to the most primal instincts we have...

    I like to think, and it's not a matter of snobbery (as I have a solid record on here of exposing snobishness and pinky-wagging), the Porsche customer is looking far beyond the empirical data we obsessed over when we were kids...

    And can we all not ADMIT that when we were kids, no matter what our background (I came from a straight-middle-class family with a dad who was obsessed with strictly American iron), when we saw a 911 on a magazine cover, or rolling down the street, we never knew or really cared what the STATS were.... We just knew that we wanted one someday, period...

    And as we grew older and started reading-up, and asking around, we found that it wasn't just that the car was a star performer, it was the whole package, the way it drove, the way it felt and the way it looked inside and out that we fell in love with. The stat sheet was always there, but whether it was ahead or a tad behind the rest of the pack never really jostled our desire to own the car...

    When I drive my 997S today, I see kids react the SAME EXACT WAY I did when I was that age.... No clue as to how or where the car lands within the current "pecking-order" of stat sheets and techno-gizmos... No clue at all... Just a blank stare of admiration, lust and desire. And this one solitary question that I get every time a youngster has the gumption to ask me... "How fast does it go??"

    You see, he was in love before he even had the slightest idea what the car would do...

    Pull next to a kid in a GT-R, and honestly, I don't think you'll get that same gaze. IF they've read about it, they'll be excited because they know it's fast. But if they've never heard of it or seen it before, it'll just be some odd lump of metallic origami sitting next to them at the light. They'll stare at it for it's SHOCK VALUE, but won't likely relate to whatever may succeed it 20 years later when they can afford to buy something... Nope, they'll stare at it for the same reason they stare at an auto accident, or a building on fire, or a mechanized Godzilla that spews fire and eats junk cars at Monster Truck events...

    The 911 is just as much the icon as it's always been, maybe more.... The GT-R is just a new freak on the block, it's punk rock, it's grunge. Sticking out, making noise, dropping jaws, shifting the paradigm a bit, and then it slowly is engulfed and absorbed into culture as folks await this next new "new".

    I've used this analogy before... Remember Woody Allen's "Sleeper"? Remember the "Orgasmatron"? The Nissan GT-R is a cutting-edge Orgasmantron.... The 911 is a real woman. The Orgasmatron may have better stats, but honestly, is that your idea of "iconic"? Is that what you aspire to?

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    great post 69bossnine.........

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    The Nile is a river in Egypt. This is how the torch gets passed. First kids grow up fighting over who gets to drive the GT-R in videogames, as opposed to the much more common Porsche their daddies and dentists drive. Then their impressionable minds see the endless stream of GT-R hype, which continues unabated and will continue to do so with each new version like the V-Spec and each new comparison with competitor's response to the new benchmark. Next thing you know, you're talking about the good old days when Jaguar or Porsche was a premium well-respected brand.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Uh huh.... Passing of the torch?

    And when we were kids, we dreamt about owning and driving ALL SORTS of crazy stuff. Who didn't want a black and gold Trans Am when Smokey and the Bandit hit the big screen??

    So are you shopping for a car with a screaming chicken on the hood today?

    The Corvette has 56 years under its belt...

    The 911 has 44 years, 54 years if you want to toss in the 356's..

    So Nissan comes out with a techno showcase to halo the company (and help develop things that can be trickled-down), and you predict icon-ship for it?

    Well, I've been in the classic car hobby for my entire life, and I've got a pretty good barometer for things that come and things that go....

    And all this "hype"? Where is it? Find me a kid who wants to grow up and buy a GT-R, rather than a Porsche or Corvette.

    I'm tellin' ya, the GT-R's appeal is amongst grown techno-geeks.... The only reason kids are digging it is because it's fast, and makes them competetive on their video game.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Let's just say we started with the original poster asking if Porsche is losing ground. You replied that the 911 was the benchmark. I pointed out it wasn't any more. You agreed, but expressed faith that Porsche would catch up.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Wonderful post 69bossnine. Really encapsulates the feeling in words...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    All boils down to who has the biggest...why cant people just enjoy it and stop worrying that someone might have a bigger..........engine

    Porsche is a Porsche and will always be a fantastic rewarding car to drive......Nissan will be here today and gone tomorrow

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    wushuhsu said:
    Let's just say we started with the original poster asking if Porsche is losing ground. You replied that the 911 was the benchmark. I pointed out it wasn't any more. You agreed, but expressed faith that Porsche would catch up.



    O.K., now this is just getting annoying....

    I used the word "benchmark" in an analogy to suggest that rather than Porsche slacking, others were just finally getting their acts together. Remember the Corvettes of 1976? It wasn't that Porsche was so great, it was that the others were such junk. It was just an illustration, as I found it rather silly to suggest that Porsche's engineers were loafing or becoming collectively dimmer as a result of other manufacturers getting better....

    I never said "I agree, but..." to any of your notions...

    And I've never expressed that Porsche has any "catching up" to do.

    Is somebody publishing sloppy Cliff Notes of my posts, and not paying me royalties??

    It's been stated in a dozen different ways, by a myriad of different posters, that Porsche's position in automotive hierarchy is not in any farcical performance category or statistic... It's a unique car, with a combination of fine attributes that is difficult to find anywhere else.

    With every alternative you find a compromise or sacrifice...

    Choose the car whose mix of attributes and shortcomings best satisfies you.

    If you believe that Porsche is losing it, and using the GT-R as your example.... Well, your argument could have been made a dozen different times over the past 40 years using a dozen different automobiles that came and went...

    You're sawing an age-old doomsday tale that never goes away, yet never seems to happen...

    We're in the midst of a performance car renaissance right now. So many choices, so much competition, what do you expect from Porsche, Divine Provenance?

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    If you believe that Porsche is losing it, and using the GT-R as your example.... Well, your argument could have been made a dozen different times over the past 40 years using a dozen different automobiles that came and went...



    Right on. Unfortunately, appraising the whole picture of ther car is hard to do for some, and a sedan size&weight solely automatic and AWD car with track stiff suspensions, unproven test of time, and hideous boyracer aesthetics inside and out can hardly be considered all of a sudden the all rounder sportcar benchmark just because it goes round corners fast and its cheap. Not to say that its a bad car, it may be the favorute for some, but not even close to an iconic benchmark for the mayority. And like many times before, time will tell, the story only repeats itsself once more as you say.

    I don't really care

    if it's not as fast around the 'ring or leaving Spago in a cloud of tire smoke as the GT-R is. It's hard for people who don't own one to understand this concept of all-round ability. It's not something you get from reading Motor Trend at Walgreen's while waiting for your zit prescription.

    The assumption is that "fast" as an empirical measure is the only thing that counts. When you own one you appreciate more of the analogue/qualitative/visceral qualities of the car.

    As I've said before if you only want the empirical bragging rights then this is not the place to be.

    Re: I don't really care

    I can't see myself in a GT-R. Its too, well, OTT. My 911 is relatively understated, fast enough for most circumstances and comparatively understated. No doubt the GT-R a fine car and having been involved a bit with Nissan over the years I think it probably superbly engineered. I think its a bit like an Evo taken to the next level.

    As road cars on today's heavily trafficked roads its hard to use what any 911 has fully let alone what a GT-R has. And the 911 remains almost uniquely challenging to drive fast and well in a way the GT-R seeks to remove. Its not really about how fast you go on a given road its about how you go fast and how much enjoyment and satisfaction it brings.

    The enduring appeal as many have said is not that the 911 is always the fastest out there. It has never been that. Its about everyday usability, more than sufficient performance and durable abilty and subtle style. Acceptable running costs are a bonus.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Nastinupe1 said:
    I just purchased my beloved Guards Red 2006 997 4S with the GT3 Body kit. I love my car and love how well it drives. However, I have noticed that there are so many cars that car keep up with my baby.

    I purchased the 997 because it's overall appeal and refinement inside and out, however, I also expected a certain level of performance superiority.

    It's kind of funny how all of the magazines have to use "at least" a turbo for 911's to hold their own these days. And it seems like Porsche needs to start pulling out the GT2 to get any respect these days.

    So where does that leave us "normal" 911 owners. It's like we own a model that might as well say DX or LS or "base" behind the name.

    I mean, for $100,000 we shouldn't be struggling to remove the lights of that Infiniti G37 from our rear view.

    Maybe it's time we stood up and asked Porsche for more from the base.

    I believe that this is how the line up should be

    911 400 hp
    911S 450 hp
    GT3 515 hp
    Turbo 550 hp
    GT2 625 hp

    Heck, for $192,000 the GT2 should be at least 625 hp.

    It's not a matter of hp my friend. When you pay for a 911 you don't buy just horses... A 911 is not a dragster... Get me a 400-420 hp regular factory car next to me (I own a 997 S). I will beat it in no time and remember that my car's a 355hp one. Bring me an R8, an RS4, a 400hp vette, you name it and you'll see what happens. I understand the fact that a 997S cannot completely disappear when you step on the gas, but you're forgetting that you bought 355 horses. This is not something exotic...!!! A 911's a legend for other things, not for being a dragster... . A 911 earned a big part of the market because of the chassis, reliability, everyday use, track performance and POWER/WEIGHT ratio... Also one more thing. a 997 S replaces the 996 GT3. And a 996 GT3 was never the fastest car on a straight line. But if you track it... It's always going to remind you of what you've driven...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?




    it'll just be some odd lump of metallic origami sitting next to them at the light. They'll stare at it for it's SHOCK VALUE, but won't likely relate to whatever may succeed it 20 years later when they can afford to buy something... Nope, they'll stare at it for the same reason they stare at an auto accident, or a building on fire, or a mechanized Godzilla that spews fire and eats junk cars at Monster Truck events...






    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    as a new contributor would like to add a fresh perspective to this thread.

    We have established that 911 was never the fastest car around but is still a highly desirable car for so many other reasons.

    The issue in my opinion is the fact that more and more common cars now are able to produce perfs similar to 911s

    This has to do with technology and physical limitations. One day in the future most cars will be able to reach 0 to 100km in 2 seconds or so...so what will the bugatti's perf look like then...probably doing so in 1 second or so

    At some point cars will not be able to differentiate themselves on say acceleration or max speed -
    obvisouly no car will go sub zero seconds!

    Cars will be chosen based on other criterias. we need to prepare for that.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    @pmpsch: welcome to Rennteam

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Got a ride in a GTR, not anywhere where I could experience what the car can do..and Honestly, I have never been able to put my C4S to the edge as well. So once your at... um lets say 100mph on a highway...who cares Your either going to die or loose your license.

    GTR looks mean, it is a box with a SH-T LOAD of HP, and so be it. I probably could have bought a GTR(friend's dad is a Nissan Dealer)if I was serious for that car..but after seeing it, to me, and only to me, it is a"modern day Trans AM" and I for one am not looking to relive my youth with obscene horsepower.

    After sooo many years, almost any Porsche still gets a head turn..After the newness fades for the GTR, which would you rather have 2 years from now? A 2009 CS or a GTR...I for one will choose the Porsche a great iconic car, that's fast enough for anyone, that can be driven everyday, comfortably.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Why is everyone comparing this car to the GTR? This is not what this thread is about? Well... perhaps a bit, however, this thread is about why Porsche offers less performance, while over charging for the turbo.

    I believe that the turbo should be the "normal" 911 and the turbo should go for $100,000 and let that be that. No narrow bodies either. Just RWD and AWD options.

    Of course Porsche would not be so profitable, but hey they would be ok.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I predict that my post will be the last post on this thread, as we have just reached a point at which no more can be done beyond banging your head on your desk, and then slowly shaking it back and forth....

    R.I.P.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I predict that my post will be the last post on this thread, as we have just reached a point at which no more can be done beyond banging your head on your desk, and then slowly shaking it back and forth....

    R.I.P.



    I hate to undermine your prediction, but it's the only means I have to agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that followed it:

    .

    PS: Sorry. No emoticon with a desk. Will you accept a brick wall as substitute?

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    The brick wall catches the spirit...

    I remember having these debates in high school in 1985....

    "Why doesn't Ford just drop a 7.0L in the Mustang, a 4.30 gear, and sell it cheap enough that I can afford it on my Taco Bell wages!! WHY?????? Those a-holes don't know what they're doing in Dearborn....

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    A big mac will give many more calories than a nice piece of steak.

    But to me, I prefer to sit down quietly in a good restaurant.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I don't care about how a 911 measures up to another car. Never have. But then, I have been driving 911s since 1976. Perhaps you're too competitive for a Porsche, and feel like you need to justify something else. I can assure you that a 911 is a very potent sports car,--in the right hands. As a bit of a 911 guy for going on my 4th decade, I can extract quite a bit from a 997.

    Dan

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I'm sorry to bring this thread up from the dead, but PORSCHE is now whining about the GT-R's lap time being innaccurate and went as far as to have their own tests with the GT2, Turbo, and GT-R.

    Now if Porsche REALLY wasn't concerned with "losing groud", then why go through all this trouble?

    To me, it shows that Porsche knows deep down inside that they have been lazy and need to raise the bar and improve their products. If they are worried about a car that Nissan makes, then maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board and improve their 911.

    And like I said before, notice how the article only talks about the 911 Turbo and GT2. The 911, 911S and 911 4 and 4S aren't even mentioned. Why even make the "regular" 911's? Why not make the Turbo the low end 911 and just offer AWD and RWD versions?

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/30/porsche-accuses-nissan-gt-r-of-cheating-the-ring/

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    You just don't like to read anybody else's opinion but your own, do you?

    This thread is dead, done, finished. You posed a notion, and the majority of replies here said "nonsense" in so many words, with reams of historic evidence.

    If a guy standing alone in the forest cries "Porsche is losing ground!!!....", does he make a sound?...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Nastinupe1 said:
    I'm sorry to bring this thread up from the dead, but PORSCHE is now whining about the GT-R's lap time being innaccurate and went as far as to have their own tests with the GT2, Turbo, and GT-R.

    Now if Porsche REALLY wasn't concerned with "losing groud", then why go through all this trouble?



    Maybe because Porsche couldn't stand this BS of Nissan any longer... They wouldn't be the only ones...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Nastinupe1 said:
    I'm sorry to bring this thread up from the dead, but PORSCHE is now whining about the GT-R's lap time being innaccurate and went as far as to have their own tests with the GT2, Turbo, and GT-R.

    Now if Porsche REALLY wasn't concerned with "losing groud", then why go through all this trouble?



    Maybe because Porsche couldn't stand this BS of Nissan any longer... They wouldn't be the only ones...




    May I suggest this? When you (anybody) says "Porsche is doing [something]." Who at Porsche is doing it?

    In this case it could be a few marketing types that are bout to lose their jobs, or trying to get promoted by creating a buzz.

    IOW, You never know _why_ Porsche does anything in cases like this because you're not sure who's doing it within the company.

    Even if it's "approved" by higher ups, there's still no idea of the motivations. Could be that extremely cute new blonde babe promoted to VP level getting her way.

    I dunno.

    Underlying point: it's extremely hard to accurately guess motivatons behind actions.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    [
    Underlying point: it's extremely hard to accurately guess motivatons behind actions.



    That is probably true. Guessing motivation behind actions is much harder than judging on the claimed NBR times by using common sense. Common sense tells that the Nissan numbers are wrong... Now Porsche verifies that the numbers are wrong after Sportauto verified that the numbers are wrong (in their first drive of the GTR)

     
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