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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    What you say is true but this has nothing to do with the on board infotainment...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    What you say is true but this has nothing to do with the on board infotainment...

    What is not true?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:

    No, Nick is wrong because he's saying a Model S sales can''t be compared with an S-Class, which is untrue. First people pick a segment -- SUV, sedan, convertible, 2 seats, 4 seats, 8 seats -- then they select their budget. An S-Class is a 4 seater sedan, just like a Model S. The prices can be similar.

    The S-Class is not really much different than a Model S in terms of what it is. Like most luxury cars, the backseats are usually empty because the average age is high enough that kids are long since too old to be riding in the back seat, even if the back seat is a little bigger in an S-Class than a Model S.

     

    Smiley

    Guess you are the only that pick a size first then consider the price, contrary to 99% of the population that consider their budget first before finding their car.Smiley

    You know, in the real world, not the one in your head, people first decide say they can afford and want to buy a $30,000 automobile, then they decide if they want a 30k SUV, 30k sedan, or a 3k coupe depending on their needs. But the price is the first thing people consider.

     

     

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:
    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    USA is not big enough a “region” for you? 

    Tesla roots are in the USA and their charger network is developed here first. Plus the high price tag of the cars severely kill the sales in many countries, like France or Spain for example. Until Tesla has a bigger lineup, it is totally fair to only look at the markets they actually can sell cars...

    China is at 30 million SAAR and growing whilst the States are a stagnant 17 million SAAR.  Therefore, the U.S. market pales in comparison and is roughly equivalent to the EU market.

    The real question is should Musk try to create a modern day Ford in a highly competitive and ruthlessly efficient industry or should the plan be to remain a niche player striving toward profitability.   Musk instead tries for world domination using his “first principles” -really smoke and mirrors-to raise capital that still falls woefully short of levels for the required CapEx to meet the goal. 

    While a few here are fixated on comparing Tesla to the German Three, Musk’s real target has been Henry Ford and mass production.   Musk thinks he brings insight but it’s only his arrogance.   Automaking is a difficult and relatively low volume industry with little of the increasing returns-see W. Brian Arthur’s works-found in Tech.  Ford remains the leading, and most profitable maker of premium vehicles, as defined by price above $50,000, yet its market cap trails Tesla.

    Yes Musk should try to create the next Ford because traditional automakers show they don't give a shit about progress. All they do is petition to get emissions and MPG requirements lowered and sell the shittiest product they can for the longest time possible. VAG decided to do something very illegal rather than just try to do it right with their diesels.

    Look no further than infotainment systems vs smartphones for evidence of how terrible the old guard is at moving technology forward. When is Mercedes going to adopt over the air updates just like my phone? Is $100K not enough money to do that?

    And unsurprisingly, the leader in autonomous driving is probably Google, not the car makers.

    Musk is right to go for a homerun rather than a single.

     

    Funny you mentioned that. My last get Cayenne just did an over the air update, via the onboard SIM card connection, to update itself with current maps.


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:
    noone1:
    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    USA is not big enough a “region” for you? 

    Tesla roots are in the USA and their charger network is developed here first. Plus the high price tag of the cars severely kill the sales in many countries, like France or Spain for example. Until Tesla has a bigger lineup, it is totally fair to only look at the markets they actually can sell cars...

    China is at 30 million SAAR and growing whilst the States are a stagnant 17 million SAAR.  Therefore, the U.S. market pales in comparison and is roughly equivalent to the EU market.

    The real question is should Musk try to create a modern day Ford in a highly competitive and ruthlessly efficient industry or should the plan be to remain a niche player striving toward profitability.   Musk instead tries for world domination using his “first principles” -really smoke and mirrors-to raise capital that still falls woefully short of levels for the required CapEx to meet the goal. 

    While a few here are fixated on comparing Tesla to the German Three, Musk’s real target has been Henry Ford and mass production.   Musk thinks he brings insight but it’s only his arrogance.   Automaking is a difficult and relatively low volume industry with little of the increasing returns-see W. Brian Arthur’s works-found in Tech.  Ford remains the leading, and most profitable maker of premium vehicles, as defined by price above $50,000, yet its market cap trails Tesla.

    Yes Musk should try to create the next Ford because traditional automakers show they don't give a shit about progress. All they do is petition to get emissions and MPG requirements lowered and sell the shittiest product they can for the longest time possible. VAG decided to do something very illegal rather than just try to do it right with their diesels.

    Look no further than infotainment systems vs smartphones for evidence of how terrible the old guard is at moving technology forward. When is Mercedes going to adopt over the air updates just like my phone? Is $100K not enough money to do that?

    And unsurprisingly, the leader in autonomous driving is probably Google, not the car makers.

    Musk is right to go for a homerun rather than a single.

    Spend a bit more time ruminating before posting.   Read about Henry Ford and the Rouge River plant.   There are many parallels.  

    The auto industry is risk adverse for a reason: litigation.  Takata and Dieselgate demonstrate the enormous costs involved when scaled up across tens of millions of units.  Automobiles must have reliable and safe mission critical systems since lives depend on those functions; smartphones or most other tech products have lower design thresholds.  As a consequence, can adopt a more liberal and agressive functionalities.   A smartphone has not more than a two year design and development cycle while a car has upwards a six year cycle.   The car also remains on the market longer and is a major capital expense for its owner so obsolescence should be programmed in a one year cycle like an Apple iPhone.  The industry isn’t perfect but there are tens of thousands of diligent, smart, and industrious individuals working in it   

    Hard to argue about safety of shit infotainment systems...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    noone1:

    No, Nick is wrong because he's saying a Model S sales can''t be compared with an S-Class, which is untrue. First people pick a segment -- SUV, sedan, convertible, 2 seats, 4 seats, 8 seats -- then they select their budget. An S-Class is a 4 seater sedan, just like a Model S. The prices can be similar.

    The S-Class is not really much different than a Model S in terms of what it is. Like most luxury cars, the backseats are usually empty because the average age is high enough that kids are long since too old to be riding in the back seat, even if the back seat is a little bigger in an S-Class than a Model S.

     

    Smiley

    Guess you are the only that pick a size first then consider the price, contrary to 99% of the population that consider their budget first before finding their car.Smiley

    You know, in the real world, not the one in your head, people first decide say they can afford and want to buy a $30,000 automobile, then they decide if they want a 30k SUV, 30k sedan, or a 3k coupe depending on their needs. But the price is the first thing people consider.

    No, they decide what kind of car they need first. It doesn't matter how much you have to spend because you can find just about every segment of car at every price.

    Name a segment other than some ridiculous exotic and I'll find you a new car that fulfills that need in every single reasonable price range.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:
    Whoopsy:
    noone1:

    No, Nick is wrong because he's saying a Model S sales can''t be compared with an S-Class, which is untrue. First people pick a segment -- SUV, sedan, convertible, 2 seats, 4 seats, 8 seats -- then they select their budget. An S-Class is a 4 seater sedan, just like a Model S. The prices can be similar.

    The S-Class is not really much different than a Model S in terms of what it is. Like most luxury cars, the backseats are usually empty because the average age is high enough that kids are long since too old to be riding in the back seat, even if the back seat is a little bigger in an S-Class than a Model S.

     

    Smiley

    Guess you are the only that pick a size first then consider the price, contrary to 99% of the population that consider their budget first before finding their car.Smiley

    You know, in the real world, not the one in your head, people first decide say they can afford and want to buy a $30,000 automobile, then they decide if they want a 30k SUV, 30k sedan, or a 3k coupe depending on their needs. But the price is the first thing people consider.

    No, they decide what kind of car they need first. It doesn't matter how much you have to spend because you can find just about every segment of car at every price.

    Name a segment other than some ridiculous exotic and I'll find you a new car that fulfills that need in every single reasonable price range.

    Hey Nick, you too have been doing it wrong.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:
    Whoopsy:
    noone1:

    No, Nick is wrong because he's saying a Model S sales can''t be compared with an S-Class, which is untrue. First people pick a segment -- SUV, sedan, convertible, 2 seats, 4 seats, 8 seats -- then they select their budget. An S-Class is a 4 seater sedan, just like a Model S. The prices can be similar.

    The S-Class is not really much different than a Model S in terms of what it is. Like most luxury cars, the backseats are usually empty because the average age is high enough that kids are long since too old to be riding in the back seat, even if the back seat is a little bigger in an S-Class than a Model S.

     

    Smiley

    Guess you are the only that pick a size first then consider the price, contrary to 99% of the population that consider their budget first before finding their car.Smiley

    You know, in the real world, not the one in your head, people first decide say they can afford and want to buy a $30,000 automobile, then they decide if they want a 30k SUV, 30k sedan, or a 3k coupe depending on their needs. But the price is the first thing people consider.

    No, they decide what kind of car they need first. It doesn't matter how much you have to spend because you can find just about every segment of car at every price.

    Name a segment other than some ridiculous exotic and I'll find you a new car that fulfills that need in every single reasonable price range.

     

    I want a new minivan Smiley


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I don't understand the discussion about cross-shopping S-class with Model S. There are probably very very few of those customers. At least in Europe I don't think anyone who was interested in an S-class ended up with a Tesla instead. Model S appeal to a completely different group of people coming from all sorts of type of cars and having different reasons for buying one. The "size class" where the Model S is positioned is of second priority for most buyers and it doesn't matter if it is sized as a S-class or an E-class. It happened to be quite good space for luggage and passengers as a great bonus of the skateboard designed drivetrain.

    The Model S is not a luxury car in the sense that we used to define luxury with an S-class (fridge in the back seat, massage seats, possible to configure every little detail, dedicated nice feeling metallic buttons for everything, etc). The Model S in comparison is minimalistic and simple and very limited in terms of customization. A different type of experience and a different type of luxury. Different strokes for different folks just like some prefer minimalistic and hi-tech interiors while others prefer the opposite. There is no right or wrong, just different.

    Simplicity should also not be underestimated. Many people probably appreciate the simple way of ordering a Tesla. Select color for interior and exterior, premium pack and autopilot and you're done. Compare that with ordering an Audi and all the combinations and packages. It's good being able to configure some stuff, but for the average car buyer I can imagine that it get's a bit too much. They just want a car and make sure they don't miss the necessary features.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    noone1:
    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    USA is not big enough a “region” for you? 

    Tesla roots are in the USA and their charger network is developed here first. Plus the high price tag of the cars severely kill the sales in many countries, like France or Spain for example. Until Tesla has a bigger lineup, it is totally fair to only look at the markets they actually can sell cars...

    China is at 30 million SAAR and growing whilst the States are a stagnant 17 million SAAR.  Therefore, the U.S. market pales in comparison and is roughly equivalent to the EU market.

    The real question is should Musk try to create a modern day Ford in a highly competitive and ruthlessly efficient industry or should the plan be to remain a niche player striving toward profitability.   Musk instead tries for world domination using his “first principles” -really smoke and mirrors-to raise capital that still falls woefully short of levels for the required CapEx to meet the goal. 

    While a few here are fixated on comparing Tesla to the German Three, Musk’s real target has been Henry Ford and mass production.   Musk thinks he brings insight but it’s only his arrogance.   Automaking is a difficult and relatively low volume industry with little of the increasing returns-see W. Brian Arthur’s works-found in Tech.  Ford remains the leading, and most profitable maker of premium vehicles, as defined by price above $50,000, yet its market cap trails Tesla.

    Yes Musk should try to create the next Ford because traditional automakers show they don't give a shit about progress. All they do is petition to get emissions and MPG requirements lowered and sell the shittiest product they can for the longest time possible. VAG decided to do something very illegal rather than just try to do it right with their diesels.

    Look no further than infotainment systems vs smartphones for evidence of how terrible the old guard is at moving technology forward. When is Mercedes going to adopt over the air updates just like my phone? Is $100K not enough money to do that?

    And unsurprisingly, the leader in autonomous driving is probably Google, not the car makers.

    Musk is right to go for a homerun rather than a single.

     

    Funny you mentioned that. My last get Cayenne just did an over the air update, via the onboard SIM card connection, to update itself with current maps.


    The maps, yes. But that's quite different from being able to control the entire operating system with OTA-updates. It's like buying a phone with iOS6 and a bunch of pre-installed apps that you're stuck with until the phone is replaced. At least the pre-installed map app in that phone get some occasional love :)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:


    The Model S is not a luxury car in the sense that we used to define luxury with an S-class 
     

    Yes, but they are priced similarly which is frankly ludicrous .


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    crayphile:
    lukestern:


    The Model S is not a luxury car in the sense that we used to define luxury with an S-class 
     

    Yes, but they are priced similarly which is frankly ludicrous .


    But you get other things for the money instead of traditional luxury. The drivetrain and the big and expensive batteries, performance, the Autopilot suite, free charging and the entire tech platform that the car is running on.

    Why does a GT2RS have price tag that is more than double that of a 911T? Is the RS more luxurious in the interior? Of course not, because the GT2RS have other reasons for being more expensive.

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
     

    Why does a GT2RS have price tag that is more than double that of a 911T? Is the RS more luxurious in the interior? Of course not, because the GT2RS have other reasons for being more expensive.

     

    I agree with much of your reasoning, but I do not accept that the Tesla S has legitimate reasons for being more expensive than an S Class, that is just ludicrous Smiley.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    crayphile:
    lukestern:


    The Model S is not a luxury car in the sense that we used to define luxury with an S-class 
     

    Yes, but they are priced similarly which is frankly ludicrous .

    They just choose to allocate cost to different things. Ironically, the biggest allocation for a high-end S-Class is just to the AMG badge...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    crayphile:
    noone1:

    Don't you have classic, multi-million dollar cars that don't exactly drive well?

    I thought this thread was about the present and the future ? Not sure which of my cars you think don't drive or handle well though Smiley.

    Maybe he is referring to your RAV4? Smiley 

    Oh wait, you don't have one because you actually love cars and have petrol in your blood. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:

    Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.

    The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol

    If I remember your earlier posts I tend to recall you buy/drive cars of even a much lower class than an A4. Just saying (and thinking of this SUV you posed some time ago)...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.

    The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol

    If I remember your earlier posts I tend to recall you buy/drive cars of even a much lower class than an A4. Just saying (and thinking of this SUV you posed some time ago)...

    Yet weirdly he scoffed at the Toyota Production System over the Tesla system.  Hmmm, he must get confused riding in the backseat of his mom’s crossover.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.

    The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol

    If I remember your earlier posts I tend to recall you buy/drive cars of even a much lower class than an A4. Just saying (and thinking of this SUV you posed some time ago)...

    Like what? A4 is probably one of the worst possible cars you could get today. It's for people who need other people to know they drive a "luxury" car. They gave me one as a loaner once when my R8 was in the shop. I couldn't believe how much they wanted for this POS.

    I can say I did rent a pretty low-end car that did suck last year. Was in the Canaries and they gave me some sort of small Opel. The car had so little torque and the clutch so light that I actually got worried trying to reverse up an incline away from a cliff because the car kept rolling forward more than it was going backwards.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.

    The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol

    If I remember your earlier posts I tend to recall you buy/drive cars of even a much lower class than an A4. Just saying (and thinking of this SUV you posed some time ago)...

    Yet weirdly he scoffed at the Toyota Production System over the Tesla system.  Hmmm, he must get confused riding in the backseat of his mom’s crossover.  

    Can you direct me to the quote where I even mentioned Toyota's manufacturing system?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.

    The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol

    If I remember your earlier posts I tend to recall you buy/drive cars of even a much lower class than an A4. Just saying (and thinking of this SUV you posed some time ago)...

    Like what? A4 is probably one of the worst possible cars you could get today. It's for people who need other people to know they drive a "luxury" car. They gave me one as a loaner once when my R8 was in the shop. I couldn't believe how much they wanted for this POS.

    Drive the current A4 again...you'd be surprised how good the quality is. Had the new RS5 for a couple of days, drove over 700 km in it, quality was at current Porsche level, maybe a tiny bit better, very surprising.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.

    The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol

    If I remember your earlier posts I tend to recall you buy/drive cars of even a much lower class than an A4. Just saying (and thinking of this SUV you posed some time ago)...

    Like what? A4 is probably one of the worst possible cars you could get today. It's for people who need other people to know they drive a "luxury" car. They gave me one as a loaner once when my R8 was in the shop. I couldn't believe how much they wanted for this POS.

    Drive the current A4 again...you'd be surprised how good the quality is. Had the new RS5 for a couple of days, drove over 700 km in it, quality was at current Porsche level, maybe a tiny bit better, very surprising.

    Maybe it's changed massively, but I almost rear-ended a car when my leg almost didn't feel long enough to actually push the brake pedal any further.

    In any case, it just lost a comparison to a Camry in a recent magazine test.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Let me see, the Tesla S is the number one car in it's segment (luxury all-electric sedan), but wait there is only one car in it's segment!


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:
    CGX car nut:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.

    The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol

    If I remember your earlier posts I tend to recall you buy/drive cars of even a much lower class than an A4. Just saying (and thinking of this SUV you posed some time ago)...

    Yet weirdly he scoffed at the Toyota Production System over the Tesla system.  Hmmm, he must get confused riding in the backseat of his mom’s crossover.  

    Can you direct me to the quote where I even mentioned Toyota's manufacturing system?

    Check your comments from yesterday when I mentioned TPS.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:
    RC:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    Eating their premium segment lunch like S-Class, 7er, etc. Of course the Germans are outselling them with garbage like the A4 and A-Class.

    The latest Camry just got ranked a better luxury car than a similarly priced Audi lol

    If I remember your earlier posts I tend to recall you buy/drive cars of even a much lower class than an A4. Just saying (and thinking of this SUV you posed some time ago)...

    Like what? A4 is probably one of the worst possible cars you could get today. It's for people who need other people to know they drive a "luxury" car. They gave me one as a loaner once when my R8 was in the shop. I couldn't believe how much they wanted for this POS.

    Drive the current A4 again...you'd be surprised how good the quality is. Had the new RS5 for a couple of days, drove over 700 km in it, quality was at current Porsche level, maybe a tiny bit better, very surprising.

    Maybe it's changed massively, but I almost rear-ended a car when my leg almost didn't feel long enough to actually push the brake pedal any further.

    In any case, it just lost a comparison to a Camry in a recent magazine test.

    Which periodical? Or does this comparison remain a secret?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    noone1:

    I can say I did rent a pretty low-end car that did suck last year. Was in the Canaries and they gave me some sort of small Opel. The car had so little torque and the clutch so light that I actually got worried trying to reverse up an incline away from a cliff because the car kept rolling forward more than it was going backwards.

    I don't see how this can happen if you simply use the handbrake in conjunction with the clutch to hold the car until you have declutched enough to bite and the engine at enough rpm to move the car against the incline and without any recoil...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I believe it had an electronic parking brake and I didn't want to floor it backwards too much by revving the hell out of it. It just didn't have any torque and I didn't want to floor it backwards in the dark with just the flick of a switch.
     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Nick Murray takes the Model 3 for a spinn. Interesting view and he really do like it.

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    Nick Murray takes the Model 3 for a spinn. Interesting view and he really do like it.

     

    Some tech institute took the Tesla 3 for a real world range test and achieved, I think, around 320 km (in the US).

    Sophia Calate, a German YouTuber who just got herself a new Audi R8 RWS, traveled to Italy in her new car. Since the car needs to be run in, she wasn't driving the hell out of it and stayed within the speed limit(s). Range? 610 km. Smiley

    Go figure... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    lukestern:

    Nick Murray takes the Model 3 for a spinn. Interesting view and he really do like it.

    Some tech institute took the Tesla 3 for a real world range test and achieved, I think, around 320 km (in the US).

    Sophia Calate, a German YouTuber who just got herself a new Audi R8 RWS, traveled to Italy in her new car. Since the car needs to be run in, she wasn't driving the hell out of it and stayed within the speed limit(s). Range? 610 km. Smiley

    Go figure... Smiley

    Nick Murray clearly needs to get himself an Audi R8... Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    crayphile:
    noone1:

    Don't you have classic, multi-million dollar cars that don't exactly drive well?

    I thought this thread was about the present and the future ? Not sure which of my cars you think don't drive or handle well though Smiley.

    Maybe he is referring to your RAV4? Smiley 

    Oh wait, you don't have one because you actually love cars and have petrol in your blood. Smiley Smiley

    SmileySmiley


     
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