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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:

    Model Y unveiling on March 14
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1102332778492772352

    An unveiling like the vaporware Roadster a while back? ... another cash grab from deposits to be able to keep paying the bills... brilliant scheme until you run out of suckers...

    Stop drinking the short seller Kool Aid. 75% parts sharing with model 3, this is a home run for them. The Model 3 was developed with the Model Y in mind. This time they do not need to ramp up production, they already have 3 Model 3 lines running, they just need to replicate...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:

    Model Y unveiling on March 14
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1102332778492772352

    An unveiling like the vaporware Roadster a while back? ... another cash grab from deposits to be able to keep paying the bills... brilliant scheme until you run out of suckers...

    Stop drinking the short seller Kool Aid. 75% parts sharing with model 3, this is a home run for them. The Model 3 was developed with the Model Y in mind. This time they do not need to ramp up production, they already have 3 Model 3 lines running, they just need to replicate...

    In my previous post, I never inferred that the third-party dealer system is ideal.  Merely stated that the dealers control the politics of dealerships and its competitive landscape.  It is a tough barrier to overcome and used Porsche as an example that changing this sales and distribution model is extremely difficult, if not impossible in many states.  These blocks can be so strong that entrenched regulations and laws remain unchanged for decades.  Audi recently walked away from offering its self-driving system in the States because the regulatory hurdles were too great.  Audi and Mercedes are having difficulties with bringing their advanced lighting systems to the States since the 55 year old regulation requires a separate switch for low and high beams.  Surprisingly, the proposed changes are being stalled by the drive-in theater industry, which has roughly 300 members.  

    I must given you credit for, with all your Tesla cheerleading, to purchase on at this time.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It is almost as though no other car manufacturers ever tried to dazzle with previews of models to try to generate sales or try to sell expensive options or high end models sooner rather than later.   My oh my no other car maker ever tries to influence their stock price positively. In fact companies never try to do that. They only announce problems and reasons to drive people away.  None of he other EV are vapor ware but the model 3 is until you can buy one for $34,999. 

    Seriously guys. I’m not ever going to buy or drive a Tesla but your objections are hilarious. Like her tits are too big or she is too pretty and horny.  I like her smile but she never says no.  There can be a Tesla and other cars too.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:

    Model Y unveiling on March 14
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1102332778492772352

    An unveiling like the vaporware Roadster a while back that is nowhere to be seen? ... another cash grab from deposits to be able to keep paying the bills... brilliant scheme, wonder what the next imaginary model will be when they Y's deposits run out....


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

    You mean like the Taycan has been Vaporware since 2015? Porsche still use the Mission-E in marketing and in different events even though the car will look nowhere near that when it comes to production. I don't have any issues at all with this, but brought it up just as a balancing example.

    Not sure why you react this drastic when Tesla reveal something. Just look at the wave of press releases from the VW group with design concepts and sketches.

    The Y is 75% built on the Model 3 and jacked up a bit to be a mini SUV/Cross over. Don't see why that would be difficult to ramp production late 2020, about 1,5 years from now.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:

    Model Y unveiling on March 14
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1102332778492772352

    An unveiling like the vaporware Roadster a while back? ... another cash grab from deposits to be able to keep paying the bills... brilliant scheme until you run out of suckers...

    Stop drinking the short seller Kool Aid. 75% parts sharing with model 3, this is a home run for them. The Model 3 was developed with the Model Y in mind.

    Unlike others here I do not trade Tesla, nor do I read Tesla shorters nor investors, and I do not own one, just calling it how it is. You bet it is a home run, like I said, great scheme for free cash for financing their $$$ problems...

    This time they do not need to ramp up production, they already have 3 Model 3 lines running, they just need to replicate...

    Replicate where... do they have all the tents already lined up to build the Y? lol


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos, you guys are all blindsided you don’t even know what negative thing to write. It is at first hilarious but in the end it is a waste of time for the others... The fact that this comes from moderator(s) here just makes it worse. “Suckers”? I have rarely seen you use that kind of language here. Clearly you also have an issue dealing with this topic, it brings you outside of your confort zone. Maybe it should be banned like politics and sweep the dust under the rug while the rest of the world marches on. Volvo announced they would cap the speed on their vehicles to 180kmh soon for safety. How much longer do you think society will accept overpowered dangerous noisy sport cars on the road?

    I come to RT for this wide and forward looking opinions from this unique group of people. I come with an open mind and trying to understand others opinions. When the moderators start calling members suckers because they just do not agree with them or feel threatened in some ways, it is probably time too move on.

    They have the Gigafactory, another factory upstate New York and they are building a plant in China...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Carlos, you guys are all blindsided you don’t even know what negative thing to write. It is at first hilarious but in the end it is a waste of time for the others... The fact that this comes from moderator(s) here just makes it worse. “Suckers”? I have rarely seen you use that kind of language here. Clearly you also have an issue dealing with this topic, it brings you outside of your confort zone. Maybe it should be banned like politics and sweep the dust under the rug while the rest of the world marches on. Volvo announced they would cap the speed on their vehicles to 180kmh soon for safety. How much longer do you think society will accept overpowered dangerous noisy sport cars on the road?

    I come to RT for this wide and forward looking opinions from this unique group of people. I come with an open mind and trying to understand others opinions. When the moderators start calling members suckers because they just do not agree with them or feel threatened in some ways, it is probably time too move on.

    They have the Gigafactory, another factory upstate New York and they are building a plant in China...

    Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Agree.  Just a wee bit of overreaction as Carlos’ statement was a mere generalization without a specific target. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It is another lesson that we are not the most rational people. Sow the seeds of self doubt now and then. The harvest may make you rich in perception. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Carlos, you guys are all blindsided you don’t even know what negative thing to write. It is at first hilarious but in the end it is a waste of time for the others... The fact that this comes from moderator(s) here just makes it worse. “Suckers”? I have rarely seen you use that kind of language here. Clearly you also have an issue dealing with this topic, it brings you outside of your confort zone. Maybe it should be banned like politics and sweep the dust under the rug while the rest of the world marches on. Volvo announced they would cap the speed on their vehicles to 180kmh soon for safety. How much longer do you think society will accept overpowered dangerous noisy sport cars on the road?

    The term suckers (as in gullible) wasn't directed at any members, don't twist what I said, everybody is talking in general here, I have no intention of personally attacking members because of something so trivial as Tesla. I think you are being too emotionally invested in it now and taking it personal when you shouldn't, so far in 63 pages it has been civil from everyone IMO. You are getting more and more frustrated with members here not being on the Tesla train, you have even mentioned it before, but trust me don't take it so personal, not worth it.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:

    Model Y unveiling on March 14
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1102332778492772352

    An unveiling like the vaporware Roadster a while back? ... another cash grab from deposits to be able to keep paying the bills... brilliant scheme until you run out of suckers...

    So someone who put a deposit on a Tesla is a sucker? The $35k Model 3 is here or not? Is it a vaporware?

    Over-reacting? Maybe, but the complaint stays. I come here to reflect on rational arguments that are different than mine. When moderators start pucking irrational biased diatribe without applying themselves to some self moderation, what example that this show to the community?

    It is your show RC, we get it. But if you let these kind of posts from moderators unchecked, then don’t be surprised this place was not able to handle political topics which ended up simply banned.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    SciFrog:

    Carlos, you guys are all blindsided you don’t even know what negative thing to write. It is at first hilarious but in the end it is a waste of time for the others... The fact that this comes from moderator(s) here just makes it worse. “Suckers”? I have rarely seen you use that kind of language here. Clearly you also have an issue dealing with this topic, it brings you outside of your confort zone. Maybe it should be banned like politics and sweep the dust under the rug while the rest of the world marches on. Volvo announced they would cap the speed on their vehicles to 180kmh soon for safety. How much longer do you think society will accept overpowered dangerous noisy sport cars on the road?

    The term suckers (as in gullible) wasn't directed at any members, don't twist what I said, everybody is talking in general here, I have no intention of personally attacking members because of something so trivial as Tesla. I think you are being too emotionally invested in it now and taking it personal when you shouldn't, so far in 63 pages it has been civil from everyone IMO. You are getting more and more frustrated with members here not being on the Tesla train, you have even mentioned it before, but trust me don't take it so personal, not worth it.

    You did not attack personally any members here, what you did is worse: you are basically calling suckers the hundreds of thousands of people who have put a deposit for a Tesla Smiley

    Again, call them suckers if they put a deposit on a vapor ware product, fine by me. But the product is here, today.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    It is almost as though no other car manufacturers ever tried to dazzle with previews of models to try to generate sales or try to sell expensive options or high end models sooner rather than later.   My oh my no other car maker ever tries to influence their stock price positively. In fact companies never try to do that. They only announce problems and reasons to drive people away.  None of he other EV are vapor ware but the model 3 is until you can buy one for $34,999. 

    Seriously guys. I’m not ever going to buy or drive a Tesla but your objections are hilarious. Like her tits are too big or she is too pretty and horny.  I like her smile but she never says no.  There can be a Tesla and other cars too.  

    Mike, the jihad against Tesla is European exceptionalism at work. Europeans do not like American cars. This is especially so with EV cars since Tesla was the first to successfully mass produce them.. Wha I find offensive is it is one thing to not like the CEO and another to wish and predict its demise. By doing so only serves undermine the viability of the company. Would I buy a Tesla today? No. It that doesn’t mean I should wish for it’s failure. 


    --

    Stress is man made.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Once again, I will provide, hopefully, clarifying language.  I am not against Tesla, as a company.  I am against Musk being CEO of that company and feel he is as much an impediment to its success as he is responsible for its high stock price, which I believe is overvalued.  SpaceX is doing great, with many notable achievements.  Shotwell has demonstrated tremendous skill, something I find lacking with Musk, who is impetuous, at best, and destructive, at worse.  I have felt this way about him for many years, even pre-Tesla and this is based on personal experience with him.  

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:

    Model Y unveiling on March 14
    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1102332778492772352

    An unveiling like the vaporware Roadster a while back? ... another cash grab from deposits to be able to keep paying the bills... brilliant scheme until you run out of suckers...

    So someone who put a deposit on a Tesla is a sucker? The $35k Model 3 is here or not? Is it a vaporware?

    If you put a deposit for a 35$ Model3  3 years ago and only now it comes out after being promised many times otherwise, even removed completely from the line-up at one point, then yes, hence so many were refunded... 

    Not talking about putting a deposit on a Tesla that is already out or about to be, that is different.

    And when is the Roadster or Y going to be really delivered to customers? it is the pyramid scheme Nick mentioned.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:

    ... something I find lacking with Musk, who is impetuous ...I have felt this way about him for many years, even pre-Tesla and this is based on personal experience with him.  

     

    Well there you go, that makes a lot of sense.

    As much as I admire Musk the visionary, there is a very despicable side of Musk totally unworthy of being the CEO of a major corporation. But you can’t quite get one without the other, the SEC is trying though.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:
    SciFrog:

    Carlos, you guys are all blindsided you don’t even know what negative thing to write. It is at first hilarious but in the end it is a waste of time for the others... The fact that this comes from moderator(s) here just makes it worse. “Suckers”? I have rarely seen you use that kind of language here. Clearly you also have an issue dealing with this topic, it brings you outside of your confort zone. Maybe it should be banned like politics and sweep the dust under the rug while the rest of the world marches on. Volvo announced they would cap the speed on their vehicles to 180kmh soon for safety. How much longer do you think society will accept overpowered dangerous noisy sport cars on the road?

    The term suckers (as in gullible) wasn't directed at any members, don't twist what I said, everybody is talking in general here, I have no intention of personally attacking members because of something so trivial as Tesla. I think you are being too emotionally invested in it now and taking it personal when you shouldn't, so far in 63 pages it has been civil from everyone IMO. You are getting more and more frustrated with members here not being on the Tesla train, you have even mentioned it before, but trust me don't take it so personal, not worth it.

    You did not attack personally any members here, what you did is worse: you are basically calling suckers the hundreds of thousands of people who have put a deposit for a Tesla Smiley

    Again, call them suckers if they put a deposit on a vapor ware product, fine by me. But the product is here, today.

    So now you call the suckers too? cause 3 years ago when they started taking deposits the 35$ Model 3 was vaporware.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    No, I said they would be suckers if the product was never delivered. It was. Porsche already takes deposits for the Tacyan. It is not that different. The Taycan has no final specs, no final price and no real delivery schedule.

    BTW a pyramid scheme is when the growth of new money exceeds the pace of increase of the goods delivered to pay for the company running costs. This is clearly not the case here as good are increasingly being delivered and deposits are shrinking.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    In fairness, the staff at the SEC is only doing their jobs.  Musk has had a number of free passes from them over the years. The $420 and financing secure Tweet went way too far for the SEC to avoid.  His constant attacks on them, fueled by his hubris, will be his nadir.  Unfortunately, that could also have negative implications for SpaceX and NASA contracts.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    SciFrog:

    Carlos, you guys are all blindsided you don’t even know what negative thing to write. It is at first hilarious but in the end it is a waste of time for the others... The fact that this comes from moderator(s) here just makes it worse. “Suckers”? I have rarely seen you use that kind of language here. Clearly you also have an issue dealing with this topic, it brings you outside of your confort zone. Maybe it should be banned like politics and sweep the dust under the rug while the rest of the world marches on. Volvo announced they would cap the speed on their vehicles to 180kmh soon for safety. How much longer do you think society will accept overpowered dangerous noisy sport cars on the road?

    The term suckers (as in gullible) wasn't directed at any members, don't twist what I said, everybody is talking in general here, I have no intention of personally attacking members because of something so trivial as Tesla. I think you are being too emotionally invested in it now and taking it personal when you shouldn't, so far in 63 pages it has been civil from everyone IMO. You are getting more and more frustrated with members here not being on the Tesla train, you have even mentioned it before, but trust me don't take it so personal, not worth it.

    He became a Tesla fan boy... Smiley Smiley

    Just kidding... I can assure everyone here that, unlike me, Carlos is not someone who would intentionally insult anyone here in this forum. Also, I only do it when I'm fed up with BS (or my stalker Smiley) but usually, I feel bad about it afterwards as well. I guess Carlos is more civilized than I am. Smiley Smiley

    So just relax, guys...everything is good. We just agree to disagree from time to time. Smiley

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Thank you for clarifying your position RC.

    Carlos is very civilized which is why this over the line post coming on top of a heap of other very opiniated posts against Tesla triggered this (over?) reaction...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Tesla will move to 800V when it will make sense. Same as Apple, only offer a new tech when seasoned and ready. The huge advantage they have is they can introduce it whenever they are ready and feel they have to without having to wait for update cycles.

    Anyhow, most people charge at home and homes don’t have the amp capacity for supercharging and 800V. I know I can swing 40 amps but probably not 60 amps. And if one day I have another EV, it might be even worse. 800V is great for supercharging on a trip however, but that’s not the main use of an EV or any car for that matter.

    Today the Tesla X has no real threat as a 7 seater. Suburban and large American SUVs are tanks, and the GLS 63 AMG is ugly (subjective), 30% more expensive and with outdated (10 years behind) tech and infotainment. The other 7 seater SUV have jump seats in the back. That leaves minivans that are not AWD, they are fat, ugly, slow, boring, outdated tech and without a sense of luxury or coolness factor.

     

    There lies the obvious problem.

    Tesla does't have a update cycles cause they are still on versions 1.0, sort of like Aston Martin still using the VH platform  or McLaren using the 12C platform.

    Tesla is WAITING for enough money to do version 2.0.

    And Tesla is married to the dinosaur, there is no arguing about it, it's also painfully obvious. They started off with the then current 400V system, and built out around it. Was a good choice as there wasn't an 800V system,. But the tech has moved on ad left Tesla behind. 800V means less amperage on wires and lighter wires and faster charging. Tesla cannot simply 'move on' without abandoning their supercharger network and legacy cars. They are stuck there.

    Apple is the first mover, they are the first to ditch legacy ports and create new ports that fits their needs. Most of the time Apple don't pick wrong. Tesla is also a first mover, but they picked wrong, twice, already. First the 400V system and then the camera based navigation system, when everyone else moved onto the better lidar scanning system.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    No, I said they would be suckers if the product was never delivered. It was. Porsche already takes deposits for the Tacyan. It is not that different. The Taycan has no final specs, no final price and no real delivery schedule.

    BTW a pyramid scheme is when the growth of new money exceeds the pace of increase of the goods delivered to pay for the company running costs. This is clearly not the case here as good are increasingly being delivered and deposits are shrinking.

     

    Porsche never took deposits for any car except the 918.

    Back then the initial deposit when straight to Porsche, not the dealer.

    Taycan deposits are placed for the dealers, not for Porsche.

    And yes you are correct, it's not quite a pyramid scheme, it's a Ponzi scheme.

    The late comer investors, aka deposit payers, paid into the pool to finance the earlier announced but not funded products. Right now the Speedster money are being used for Model 3. By the time Tesla decided to make the vapour ware Speedster, he will need a new pipe dream to attract people paying deposits to finance the Speedster. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    No, I said they would be suckers if the product was never delivered. It was. Porsche already takes deposits for the Tacyan. It is not that different. The Taycan has no final specs, no final price and no real delivery schedule.

    BTW a pyramid scheme is when the growth of new money exceeds the pace of increase of the goods delivered to pay for the company running costs. This is clearly not the case here as good are increasingly being delivered and deposits are shrinking.

     

    Porsche never took deposits for any car except the 918.

    Back then the initial deposit when straight to Porsche, not the dealer.

    Taycan deposits are placed for the dealers, not for Porsche.

    And yes you are correct, it's not quite a pyramid scheme, it's a Ponzi scheme.

    The late comer investors, aka deposit payers, paid into the pool to finance the earlier announced but not funded products. Right now the Speedster money are being used for Model 3. By the time Tesla decided to make the vapour ware Speedster, he will need a new pipe dream to attract people paying deposits to finance the Speedster. 

     

    That was announced today-a pickup truck in the SiFi design of Bladerunner.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    So they followed Rivian to do a electric pickup 


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Basically, though Musk has talked about it since last year.  Rivian has steadily been work on it for about a decade.  The real EV excitement is Volkswagen Group at the Geneva Auto Show.  Both Seat and Skoda have shown concept crossovers using the new MEB platform. Volkswagen is showing a dune buggy to highlight the flexibility of that new platform as well as having announced a new platform partnership with a German startup.  Audi will show its concept tomorrow next to its pre-production version of its e-tron Sportsback variant of its production SUV.  Audi also has a more sporting variant of the new e-tron SUV with three motors undergoing final testing.  All this activity and I have yet to even mention hyperactive Porsche with its pending Taycan, the crossover, and the next generation Macan EV.  This is all happening within the next couple of model years.   


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    After years of promise, battery cars about to go mainstream

     

    https://apple.news/AnvSAIf8tTimVh5ap81QLJw

    Once you sift though all the BS, VW aims to sell 1m EV per year in 2025, 10% of all the cars they sell per year. By then Tesla should be able to sell 1m cars per year too, if they survive the Musk tornado.

    So all the VW huge push for EV is just marketing gimmick, affecting less than 10% of their sales in 6 years... Good effort, but not quite what they want you to believe. VW is also saying that they have such a lead their competitors will suffer a lot next 5-10 years. On another funny story, Toyota has just launched a campaign anti EV to promote the new hybrid Corolla since they don’t have an EV one. Last, the Piëch car that can recharge in 5 minutes has shared no technical details whatsoever on a battery design that does not exists elsewhere today. Interesting times.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    Tesla will move to 800V when it will make sense. Same as Apple, only offer a new tech when seasoned and ready. The huge advantage they have is they can introduce it whenever they are ready and feel they have to without having to wait for update cycles.

    Anyhow, most people charge at home and homes don’t have the amp capacity for supercharging and 800V. I know I can swing 40 amps but probably not 60 amps. And if one day I have another EV, it might be even worse. 800V is great for supercharging on a trip however, but that’s not the main use of an EV or any car for that matter.

    Today the Tesla X has no real threat as a 7 seater. Suburban and large American SUVs are tanks, and the GLS 63 AMG is ugly (subjective), 30% more expensive and with outdated (10 years behind) tech and infotainment. The other 7 seater SUV have jump seats in the back. That leaves minivans that are not AWD, they are fat, ugly, slow, boring, outdated tech and without a sense of luxury or coolness factor.

     

    There lies the obvious problem.

    Tesla does't have a update cycles cause they are still on versions 1.0, sort of like Aston Martin still using the VH platform  or McLaren using the 12C platform.

    Tesla is WAITING for enough money to do version 2.0.

    And Tesla is married to the dinosaur, there is no arguing about it, it's also painfully obvious. They started off with the then current 400V system, and built out around it. Was a good choice as there wasn't an 800V system,. But the tech has moved on ad left Tesla behind. 800V means less amperage on wires and lighter wires and faster charging. Tesla cannot simply 'move on' without abandoning their supercharger network and legacy cars. They are stuck there.

    Apple is the first mover, they are the first to ditch legacy ports and create new ports that fits their needs. Most of the time Apple don't pick wrong. Tesla is also a first mover, but they picked wrong, twice, already. First the 400V system and then the camera based navigation system, when everyone else moved onto the better lidar scanning system.

     

    Tesla is not Apple, even Barclays new memo wrote that today. They are more like Samsung, low profits but push the tech out and leave the luxury and slow update cycles to Porsche and stuffs. To own equity of this company, you have to be very brave since it is becoming clearer that they do not care for the short terms profits whatsoever.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:
     

    Tesla is not Apple, even Barclays new memo wrote that today. They are more like Samsung, low profits but push the tech out and leave the luxury and slow update cycles to Porsche and stuffs. To own equity of this company, you have to be very brave since it is becoming clearer that they do not care for the short terms profits whatsoever.

    In phones Apple is premium and Samsung is cheap. In cars EV premium will be the Germans. And the cheap will be Chinese, Ford and GM. No space left for Tesla...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:
     

    Tesla is not Apple, even Barclays new memo wrote that today. They are more like Samsung, low profits but push the tech out and leave the luxury and slow update cycles to Porsche and stuffs. To own equity of this company, you have to be very brave since it is becoming clearer that they do not care for the short terms profits whatsoever.

    In phones Apple is premium and Samsung is cheap. In cars EV premium will be the Germans. And the cheap will be Chinese, Ford and GM. No space left for Tesla...

    Ever heard of Huawei?Smiley


     
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