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    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    hey Christian !!, congrats !!!!

    If I had to choose a ¨family¨ car (I assume that's the main reason you ordered one) it would be an X6M, or X5M.....GREAT CHOICE !!!!

    The M drivers package must be a vital option, specially for the autobahn !!!


    --


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Really disappointed..

    You and your wife will now drive BMW's and you've already said you're ready to dump your 997.1 Turbo.

    So I guess Rennteam is now primarily a BMW forum with a slight, if tainted, appreciation of Porsche..

    Methinks an explanation is in order...

     

     

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    How about BMW just makes better cars and trucks right now?


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Whoopsy:

    How about BMW just makes better cars and trucks right now?

     How about also  , here in the US, Porsche charging " up the wazoo " with " nicely equipped " $170K Panamera Turbos and 911 Turbos or $150K Cayenne Turbo S's suddenly realizing that it's harder to sell such an everywhere/everyday brand at near Aston Martin or Bentley prices .

     

    Smiley

     

     

     


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Whoopsy:

    How about BMW just makes better cars and trucks right now?

     

    ...well they did make the e30s era cars which i think are just amazing Smiley Might be a little biased though haha. Still glad to see BMW back, they are doing great things.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
    _____________________________________________________________________
    1984 BMW 323i 5spd 2.3L 141 hp (105 kW) More door. Black on black (parting out) 
    1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
    1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
    2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
    1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Whoopsy:
    intouch1:

    this will stay renteam nevertheless won't it ?

    it's already 3 of us now going for M beamers.....guess porsche really did something wrong....

    none of us will neither look back to the current cayenne turbo nor forward to the next. bmw have nailed it this time.

     

    Actually 4, I already have my deposit down for a X6M, but I am still deciding on color combo, either Carbon Black/Metallic Black with Red or black interior.

    RC can always change the name a little to M-Rennteam, pretty sure no one is gonna noticed.


    clearly you and intouch1 can't count. Lol. RC, Conny and myself have bought X5Ms, intouch1 and whoopsy has bought X6Ms. I think that makes 6. Lol. And for those who want 7 seater X5M, my friend was willing to pay extra for it from Individual, and had told Individual through BMW Australia that money is no object, but they rejected his request. It isn't quite a Rolls Royce sort of customisation service is it?

    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Maybe I should explain my decision for a BMW X5 M:

    I still love Porsche cars and the Porsche brand but unfortunately Porsche has started to be a mass production manufacturer for big money. Another problem is that a potential blockbuster, like the Panamera, has been developed away from the European market where monster sedans and monster SUVs don't have any real future due to public perception.

    The Panamera is actually a very good example of what is going wrong at Porsche: although I don't like the price tag policy on the Panamera, it is just way too expensive compared to the Cayenne, it wasn't really the main issue why I didn't go for it and trust me, I WANTED.

    I just can't afford, from a business- and private point of view, to park such a HUGE sedan in front of my business with the Porsche badge on it. 

    Porsche should have developed two Panamera, one Panamera standard and a long version. BMW, Audi and Mercedes already proved that this system works.

    The Cayenne Turbo S is another good example: fantastic car but Porsche never really listened to customer complaints about issues with throttle response and shifting speed. I won't even start to brag about the huge option list, the X5 M has so many options standard, at least over here in Germany, you just need another 10000 EUR to make this car perfect. Most Cayenne Turbo S have options for 30000 EUR and more in them. Ouch.

    Public perception is also a huge problem in Europe, especially in Germany. I still wonder why Porsche never really tried harder to advertise the Cayenne in a different way or at least to "prevent" the press to declare the Cayenne the most environmentally unfriendly SUV on the planet. This should have never happened. 

    Why now the X5 M instead of the Panamera Turbo or a next generation Cayenne Turbo ? 

    Some facts:

    1. public perception (the X5 is just a X5, people actually don't really seem to care, especially not over here in Bavaria, the home of BMW)

    2. dealer gave a HUGE rebate and when I mean huge, I mean REALLY huge. Let me put it this way: for the same money the X5 M costs me, I could have gotten myself a Cayenne S with some options. HUGE rebate.

    3. turbo lag: what always annoyed me on the Cayenne Turbo S was the throttle response lag, especially when starting from standstill. The X5 M is  like a rocket and I don't exaggerate: no special skills necessary, no special launch control needed to be activated. Just press the throttle and the X5 M jumps forward without any lag, it is really unbelievable. It is actually very similar to the Panamera Turbo, so I still have hopes that the same throttle response will be available in the next generation Cayenne Turbo.

    4. navigation/entertainment system: REAL internet. I mean Google and everything. Fantastic. I really like the latest Porsche PCM generation with touch operation but it doesn't come even close to the BMW system. Maybe with the next generation.

    5. M button: you can program your own throttle, shifting, suspension setup into a single button, this is one of the features I really LOVE on the X5 M. I proposed such a feature for the Cayenne years ago but Porsche never really cared. Same applies to the fun stuff you can actually watch on the X5 M display, like 4WD torque distribution and other stuff.

    6. currently, I think the X5 M is the sportiest SUV on the planet. I know it sounds weird to connect the words sport and SUV but it really is true. The X5 M feels very sporty, has a very direct steering and just feels sportier than any SUV I drove before. This could change with the next Cayenne generation of course but right now, the X5 M rulez.

    7. resale value: judging by the huge rebate the dealer gave me on the X5 M, I think resale value isn't a real issue. I ran some numbers and after 3 years of ownership, I loose around 50%. On the Cayenne Turbo S, I lost almost 75% in 3 years. No thanks. Especially the Cayenne Turbo/S is hard to sell because of a story german Autobild ran a year or two ago where they showed a fuel consumption of over 40 liters / 100 km. Not that I really care about resale value since I never buy such an expensive car anymore (lease is much more convenient for me) but it matters.

    8. a Panamera Turbo would have been 55% more expensive than a X5 M with similar options. 55%...this is not a joke. Sorry but for this kind of money, I can really live with a slightly lower performance on a family car. A fully optioned Mercedes E63 AMG is around 140000 EUR but dealers usually give a HUGE rebate too, so it actually is more like 110000 EUR. I can't buy a Panamera Turbo for this kind of money, most german dealer give 3-7% on the Panamera Turbo, thats it. With some tricks, there may be even 10-11% rebate in it but not more. The competition offers double of it.

    In 18 months, my 997 Turbo lease runs out. Right now, I'm still inclined to get another Porsche, maybe not a 997 Turbo but if the business runs smoothly and I don't have to worry, maybe a 991 Carrera S or a 991 GT3, time will tell. I love Porsche and the brand but I'm not sure I like what has become out of it. With VW at the steering wheel, I actually hope for a larger model variation, more standard options and attractive prices. I'm still not sure however that this is going to happen. If VW wants to market Porsche as a premium brand, they need to limit production. If they don't want to limit production (not very likely), they need to create more attractive price options. A Panamera Turbo for 180000 EUR fully optioned surely is not the attractive model I'm waiting for.

     

     

     

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    WOW - this car looks superb!

    Great decision and finally very very quick

    I wish you always safe journeys and hessleless driving with the new family car!


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    the reason why such huge rebates are available on X 5/6 and ML is that they are produced in the US. just look at US prices.

    same for Porsche's. the discrepancy between Euro based prices and Dollar markets are a nightmare. although manufactured in europe.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Great rationale Christian..... I withdraw my criticism..Smiley

    What you say makes a whole lot of sense.

    I'm hoping (not necessarily expecting) that VW will forget SUVs & Sedans and make Porsche their specialised top-end sports-car division. 

    That would, at least, help re-create some of the currently lost exclusivity..

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Porsche just doesn't get it: a while ago, I was the perfect (according to the Porsche regional manager) Porsche customer with a Boxster S, 911 Turbo and a Cayenne Turbo in the garage. Now only one Porsche is left and for a reason.

    I really don't want to spend huge amounts of money on a family or sunshine weather fun car.

    In my opinion, the Cayenne and the Panamera should have been "side-models", cars for those who already own a Porsche and need a family Porsche or just another small car for fun. I know that Porsche sold more Cayenne than 911 but I think this is where the problem lies. The 911 should be THE exclusive Porsche model from which all the other "side-models" would profit and benefit. I just can't justify to myself anymore to pay more money for a Panamera Turbo than I would pay for a GT3/GT3RS or a perfectly optioned 911 Turbo. Sorry.

    I know that the Panamera is a fine sedan and that Porsche wanted to adapt to the common luxury sedan prices in Germany but it wasn't a good idea in my opinion. At least not for Europe.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    I don't see even a single reason to compare prices of a carmaker, that produce 70k cars per year (Porsche), to a brand with 400k (BMW for example). At the stage when Porsche start to produce 150 000 units, the difference will be proportional... Having said that, Porsche is still and will ever be much more exclusive than BMW, Merc or Audi... That's why wanting a Porsche for the price of a BMW is illogical IMO. Greetings to RC for the perfect new family car!!!

    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    intouch1:

    the reason why such huge rebates are available on X 5/6 and ML is that they are produced in the US. just look at US prices.

    same for Porsche's. the discrepancy between Euro based prices and Dollar markets are a nightmare. although manufactured in europe.


    It gets ridicoulous . GT3 RS in the US : just over $ 140.000  . In Switzerland : $ 215'000 !!!! Smiley

    It is just not acceptable anymore !!!


    --
     

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Congrat's on the X5. I loved my 4.8is, especially in the winter!Smiley


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    MKW:
    Whoopsy:

    How about BMW just makes better cars and trucks right now?

     How about also  , here in the US, Porsche charging " up the wazoo " with " nicely equipped " $170K Panamera Turbos and 911 Turbos or $150K Cayenne Turbo S's suddenly realizing that it's harder to sell such an everywhere/everyday brand at near Aston Martin or Bentley prices .

    I'm with you on that. I like Porsche's but BMW gives you all the options that Porsche charges you for. $4K plus just for Nav?? $960 for bluetooth? Come on.... I will seriously be looking elsewhere when I replace the C2S, including BMW, AM and Audi.


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Boyko23:
    I don't see even a single reason to compare prices of a carmaker, that produce 70k cars per year (Porsche), to a brand with 400k (BMW for example). At the stage when Porsche start to produce 150 000 units, the difference will be proportional... Having said that, Porsche is still and will ever be much more exclusive than BMW, Merc or Audi... That's why wanting a Porsche for the price of a BMW is illogical IMO. Greetings to RC for the perfect new family car!!!


    1. Porsche produced over 100k cars in 2008 as far as I remember

    2. the most sucessful Porsche was/is...the Cayenne

    3. Porsche uses a lot of parts from Volkswagen for the Cayenne and Panamera (with VW owning Porsche now, this will surely increase substantially)

    4. of course Porsche will always be more "exclusive" than BMW, Mercedes or Audi BUT it will depend on the model. Look at the current Cayenne Turbo/S prices for used cars over here in Germany and you get a used BMW 7series top models or Audi A8 top models in the same price range/condition like a Cayenne Turbo for double the money. Meaning: people rather want the Bimmer and Audi but not the Porsche. Exclusivity ? Well...Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Congratulations RC! It will be nice family transport. I never thought I would see the day that you would completely switch over to BMW's Smiley


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Thanks, Mike. It is a matter of money of course but to be honest, BMW delivers a bit more for the buck than Porsche right now.

    I don't see myself in a BMW M3 GTS or a M6 but the day may come if Porsche isn't careful about the next 911 generation.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Congratulations also from me for your newest acquisition


    --


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    WAY:

    clearly you and intouch1 can't count. Lol. RC, Conny and myself have bought X5Ms, intouch1 and whoopsy has bought X6Ms. I think that makes 6. Lol. And for those who want 7 seater X5M, my friend was willing to pay extra for it from Individual, and had told Individual through BMW Australia that money is no object, but they rejected his request. It isn't quite a Rolls Royce sort of customisation service is it?

     

    It wasn't me counting :p I just add one to HIS count :) HE is the one bad with numbers, haha.

    I was looking for a 7-seat X5M too, but I got the same no from BMW. BM doesn't offer a GL63 either.

     

    I echoed RC's comments. I looked hard at the Panamera Turbo but the price is too unreal, here in Canada it's about 40k MORE than US price, and the price difference between it and the X6M is 70k Canadian, I can comfortably get a Lotus Elise fun car with the difference.

    X6M starts at just under 100k Canadian here, and everything is pretty much standard, there is only one big option that cost 5500 which has all the convenience features, 4500 for full leather and 1950 for a rear entertainment system. 110k for a fully loaded rocket that as no peers. Bargain.

     


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    even without putting price into the equation.....the X6M is better packed with technology than the current cayenne.

    for the buck it will also beat the cayenne 2 i am sure.

    i switched mainly because i find the X6 to be far far better looking than any suv out there.

    when i went from my cayenne turbo to the X6 50i i thought it would be a downgrade. turned out it wasn't at all.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Since I'm going 25 years ago for Porsche, I would describe myself as a fan in principle. As a fan I’ m less price sensitive. That's why I actually decided between Panamera Turbo and X5M and the price wasn’t mainly my concern. The Panamera is really a perfect sports sedan but also slightly boring. Finally the X5M conquers my heart because for me its much more exciting in the whole.

    Last but not least: it's an SUV and I love SUV's, especially with plenty of power.

    The main factor in my decision is finally given by the secret nature of the BMW. As Christian wrote the Cayenne in Germany is seen very critically.  It's really sad, but the Porsche logo is frowned at the moment, perhaps except on the 911, which has a much better acceptance than a Cayenne.
    My good experience with my previous X5 4.8iS (I really loved it ) have supported my decision too. I am extremely happy ordered the X5M and can’t await although it will take only a few days to delivery


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 
    More pics:
    http://www.dayboox.com/group/Connys%20Galerie
     

    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    For me the Panamera Turbo was never even in consideration as it is slightly more than DOUBLE the price of the X5M here! I did consider the Panamera S but that is still a whole TTS more than the X5M here! In the end, the price and the packaging of the X5M was what won me. Unlike some of you guys, I never owned a Cayenne, but am moving from a smaller SUV (X3). We considered the Cayenne GTS but with the new model coming out and the X5M being so much faster, it was a no brainer for us. Btw, this mass desertion of Porsche reminds me of the first year of V8 Vantage when quite a few of Rennteamers traded their 911 for one, me included. I think Porsche needs to wake up!

    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    What a term, mass desertion. :)

     


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    for a very very short while i was considering a panamera too.....just cause i am a porsche guy.

    as soon as sense and sensibility kicked in it was X6M. why would i get a 4 door sedan when a 4 door suv in fact offers more utility wise.

    the only reason to choose a luxo sedan over a luxo suv is if one spends many many hours/miles on the highway.

     


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Gnil:
    intouch1:

    the reason why such huge rebates are available on X 5/6 and ML is that they are produced in the US. just look at US prices.

    same for Porsche's. the discrepancy between Euro based prices and Dollar markets are a nightmare. although manufactured in europe.


    It gets ridicoulous . GT3 RS in the US : just over $ 140.000  . In Switzerland : $ 215'000 !!!! Smiley

    It is just not acceptable anymore !!!

     

    Don't get me started. Over here it's around $290,000 Smiley

     


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    RC:

    Thanks, Mike. It is a matter of money of course but to be honest, BMW delivers a bit more for the buck than Porsche right now.

    I don't see myself in a BMW M3 GTS or a M6 but the day may come if Porsche isn't careful about the next 911 generation.

    I agree, the X5M is definitely the best bang for your buck right now. I just wish they had done more on the  exterior styling. The X5 is dating really badly (just personal opinion) compared to other cars in the same segment. I suppose that is what buyers are after, a low profile SUV in comparison with the other flashy SUV's on the market.


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Mike S:
    Gnil:
    intouch1:

    the reason why such huge rebates are available on X 5/6 and ML is that they are produced in the US. just look at US prices.

    same for Porsche's. the discrepancy between Euro based prices and Dollar markets are a nightmare. although manufactured in europe.


    It gets ridicoulous . GT3 RS in the US : just over $ 140.000  . In Switzerland : $ 215'000 !!!! Smiley

    It is just not acceptable anymore !!!

     

    Don't get me started. Over here it's around $290,000 Smiley

     


    same here 300 effing % import on cars above 2 litres.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    intouch1:
    Mike S:
    Gnil:
    intouch1:

    the reason why such huge rebates are available on X 5/6 and ML is that they are produced in the US. just look at US prices.

    same for Porsche's. the discrepancy between Euro based prices and Dollar markets are a nightmare. although manufactured in europe.


    It gets ridicoulous . GT3 RS in the US : just over $ 140.000  . In Switzerland : $ 215'000 !!!! Smiley

    It is just not acceptable anymore !!!

     

    Don't get me started. Over here it's around $290,000 Smiley

     


    same here 300 effing % import on cars above 2 litres.

    Me too.  About US$300k here.   If I lived in the US with the same disposable income I have now, I would have a garage like Mike's!  Ok maybe not.  But I may be able to afford 1/10th of what he has. Smiley
     


    Re: Bye Bye Cayenne, Hello...

    Mike S:
     I suppose that is what buyers are after, a low profile SUV in comparison with the other flashy SUV's on the market.


    At least in Germany, "flashy" SUVs have no real future I'm afraid. For most people who can't afford a Cayenne for example, the Cayenne is only a status symbol for "soccer moms", at least this is the general perception over here.

    The X6 is not much different, it attracts a lot of attention and people have a love/hate feeling towards this car. I remember when I told one of my employees that I'm getting a BMW SUV and the Cayenne has to go. I was part of my "preparation" strategy, so people I know aren't surprised when I have a different car suddenly. She immediately assumed that I'm getting the X6, she had that very suprised but at the same time not very pleasant look in her face. When I told her that I'm getting the X5, you should have seen her face: it relaxed immediately, she started smiling and just told me "oh, the X5. OK.". That was all, no curiousity, no more questions, nothing. In the afternoon, she asked me why I gave away the Cayenne and I told her that it got too expensive. Again she smiled and walked away...I think I made her happy. Smiley

    If you think there stories are exaggerated, they aren't. I shouldn't care too much about what other people say but like I said, I earn my money in a very "sensitive" social environment and most of my kids' friends and class mates have parents who drive around in a VW Passat or Nissan Micra. The most expensive car among these people is a BMW Z4.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


     
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