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    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Really dumb they didn't classify the car as having finished. Required cool down lap? What a bunch of bullshit.


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    That was some ending! I had almost given hope, but thats LeMans for you!


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    It ain't over till the fat lady sings...  


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    noone1:

    Really dumb they didn't classify the car as having finished. Required cool down lap? What a bunch of bullshit.

    Well, it's part of the regulations, which they know in advance, so it's not bull.


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Porsche kept the pressure on Toyota for 23 hours and 40 minutes until they changed tires because of a slow puncture...they absolutely deserved this win!

    But the broken down Toyota should have been on the podium...crazy rule with the cool down lap...Smiley

    Blueflame


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Boyko23:
    I'm speechless!
    But Toyota had all the luck throughout the whole race - yellow zones, safety cars, tyres... Until 5 minutes before the end. Drama, real dream!
    But this is endurance racing. Toyota didn't survive, Porsche did!!

     

    +1


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    So Ferrari is just allowed to ignore their penalty? Shouldn't that DQ them?


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    What a race!!!i will remember for all life!

    blush


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Today's race was one for the ages. Porsche had a shot at wining it in 2014 when Mark Webber's car had a powertrain failure after 22 hours. Tough one fro Toyota. One can only imagine what the rest of the WEC season is going to be like as Audi and Toyota push to improve their cars.


    --

    2014 Porsche 991 C4S Black with Sports Design Package,  2013 Porsche Cayenne Dark Blue Metallic, New York


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Congrats to Porsche, Nr. 18 very nice! A bit lucky, but the result stands kiss


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    

    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    A couple of notes and thoughts:

    1. I'm very pleased indeed (and a little surprised) that so many of my forum friends were watching (and attending) Le Mans this year.
    2. I was extremely pleased to see Porsche take it's 18th win at Le Mans.
    3. Like almost everyone else, I was absolutely stunned by the drama of Toyota. My heart went out to them (the Team) , but the old adage applies here : To be first, first you have to finish.
    4. Whilst everyone is busy committing virtual seppuku over Toyot'a misfortunes, I think it also important to remember that Porsche's victory was indeed deserved .They were not only the first car to cross the line, but they had also placed themselves in the position  to be able to do so if anything happened to the leader.
    5. I was disappointed to hear a certain well known commentator (and to whom I have been listening to for years) on RLM say (2 hours before the end of the race) , that if Porsche won the race (due to Toyota's possible failures) it would without merit. This is an appalling thing to say ; it is not true, and it is not commentary but rather opinion journalism.
    6. I did not hear that same commentator suggest in 2014 that Audi's win was not merited when the Porsche encountered issues 2 hours before the end.
    7. Leena Gade - As you all know it was Leena's last race as race  engineer for  Audi. A commentator (a different one) on the same radio station, during the commentary exalting her accomplishments, decided that it would be an appropriate time  for some moral preening. The commentator made sure to use the opportunity to mention (as completely predictable) that Lena was a woman and her contribution to women in motor-racing, etc ,etc.  My thoughts on this are as follows: Leena Gade was an extraordinary engineer because... she was Leena Gade; not because of,or in spite of, the fact that she was a woman. Leena had as much control over her gender as I do over mine. I have no issue celebrating what  people can control. I take little pleasure and see no purpose in celebrating what they cant control.
    8. I'm very happy indeed with Porsches 18th win but.....I think it the following have become very clear:
    • Toyota has caught up with them.
    • Audi will surpass them once their car is sorted.
    • Porsche need to quickly get a good Technical Director on board  (substitute of Alex Hitzinger).
    • The 919's current concept is rapidly reaching it's end.

    Many congratulations to Porsche!!

     

     


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Good comment.

    Porsche indeed was there ready to pick up from Toyota's misfortune. No other car was in a position to push them to the very last minute. I was surprised that Porsche was not able to outpace Toyota, fully agree with you on the need to rethink the 918 for next season.


    --

    1992 964 Carrera 2 - 2014 Mercedes A45 AMG - 2013 Mini Cooper S - Cayman GT4 (soon)


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Grazy race and finish in the LMP1 class. I cannot imagine how the Toyota team must have felt. Anyone knows what the reason for the car to stop was ??

    I am a little torn on LMP1. On one side the class managed to deliver an extremely exiting race, but with only 9 cars of which realistically 6 had a chance to win, the class could deserve some more cars. It will take a lot of money and a solid case to convince the boards of any manufacturer to enter and try to beat the existing 3 teams though. Perhaps some sort of a BOP to let the less tech advanced cars have a chance.

    LMP2 I was not following, so not much to say but GTE PRO seem to have hit a cross road where the participants and the organizers have to get to terms with the Turbo cars. I was surprised to see Ford being so reliable. The speed I guess we knew they would have, at least after the quali. Aston and Corvette tried their best but in reality they knew that they had no chance. A bit of a wasted race for them.

    GTE AM will also need to be evaluated as next year only Ferrari will sell turbo cars approved in the class, unless if Ford changes their mind and do start selling customers cars. Assuming that Ferrari is the only turbo car, why would anyone drive a "old" Aston or Corvette if they know that they do not stand a chance yes

    I guess 2017 will be when I need to experience this race live, and with this one in mind I will be looking forward to it.


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    1.  Toyota-  Apparently a crack in the turbo intake pipe.
    2. GTE -PRO - A complete fiasco with BoP. This is a real problem that needs to be addressed in the very near future. It's up to the ACO to lance that boil and correct the damage that they have done.

     


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    1. I'm very happy indeed with Porsches 18th win but.....I think it the following have become very clear:
    2. Toyota has caught up with them.
    • Audi will surpass them once their car is sorted.
    • Porsche need to quickly get a good Technical Director on board  (substitute of Alex Hitzinger).
    • The 919's current concept is rapidly reaching it's end.

     A few additional comments:

    1. Toyota had the speed and effiency to be a very tough competitor, they clocked the fatest lap time during the race as well. Their reliabilty record was better than Porsches and Audis, well, until the penultimate lap...they would have been a worthy winner. IMO, Neel Jani was again the most remarkable Porsche driver, especially during his night stints, unrelenting and superfast. 

    2. Audis radical configuration will pay off eventually, plenty of potential in this car until the rule changes in 2018.

    3. Porsche currently is still the quickest car in qualifying, but Toyota and Audi have, at a minimum; levelled the playing field. The next major step to the 10 MJ hybrid class in 2018 will be a critical one, and as Spyderidol stated above, without top notch engineering leadership that will be quite a challenge.  

    4. In GTE PRO, it was a complete disaster for the works-RSR. Porsche will have to ask themselves if the new car currently undergoing development for the 2017 season will be enough of a game-changer in the face of the substantial superiority of the Ford GT and Ferrari 488.    

     

     


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    To say that Porsche did not deserve the victory is not understanding endurance racing.

    The Porsche put the pressure on the Toyota's engine lap after lap for almost 24 hours, and it was there to push past the Toyota at the end.

    Objectively speaking in a 24 hr type endurance paced race leading the race for most of the race and have a cracked turbo pipe at the end has no more merit than having a water pump fail at the beginnning after being in front and having to play catch up the rest of the race (ex Webber's car), the difference is in the expectations you develop subjectively, but were the mechanical failure happens during the race when the rest of the race is the same does grant more or a moral victory, just a greater deception at the end of the race, the two must not be confused.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    I forgot one thing....CONGRATULATIONS to Futch on the 2nd spot.

     wink


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Carlos, I completely agree with you. There is no question that Porsche deserved the win because the crossed the finish line first, they were strong enough to be within striking distance when the opportunity arose.

    Still, I think it is human nature to feel sorry for the very unlucky last-minute loser as well. By the way, it would have been magnanimous of Porsche to acknowledge their tooth-and-nail battle with a worthy competitor and their deserved good fortune in the ads appearing in the press this morning...

     


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Very true olli  kiss


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Carlos from Spain:

    To say that Porsche did not deserve the victory is not understanding endurance racing.

    The Porsche put the pressure on the Toyota's engine lap after lap for almost 24 hours, and it was there to push past the Toyota at the end.

    Objectively speaking in a 24 hr type endurance paced race leading the race for most of the race and have a cracked turbo pipe at the end has no more merit than having a water pump fail at the beginnning after being in front and having to play catch up the rest of the race (ex Webber's car), the difference is in the expectations you develop subjectively, but were the mechanical failure happens during the race when the rest of the race is the same does grant more or a moral victory, just a greater deception at the end of the race, the two must not be confused.

    +100

    "There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception"- Aldous Huxley
     


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    First of all congratulations to Futch for the 2nd place and now leading GTE-AM standings.kiss

    Then congratulations to Porsche. As already stated before, the win was well deserved, as the #2 kept out of trouble and was always on pace to put Toyota under pressure. The race was so tense and a real pleasure to watch. I'm extremely happy for Marc Lieb to win overall. It was a great team effort, though Lieb and Jani did most of the driving. 

    By the way a little numbers game: Last years #18 car scored the 18th pole and the 18th win for Porsche, also being the 919 Hybrid's 2nd each, now with #2 on the car smiley

    It's a shame though, Toyota didn't win. Seems like they should not, after all the trouble they had in all their past attempts. This was just the tip. They have by far made the biggest advantages from last year's LM24 on.

    As for the rest of the season it will be a tough time for Porsche, with a now reliable (at least over the 6h distance) and pretty fast Toyota and Audi finding their gremlins. I'm sure there will be hard fights for the lead in the next races.

     

    Now GTE: As valid for almost all other racing series' featuring it, BOP is a big issue at the moment IMO. FIA/ACO should definetly consider to fully adopt the IMSA BOP system - the one that tracks and analyzes all the data live and penalizes sandbaggers. I wouldn't accuse Ford or Ferrari of sandbagging in this case (Ford had trouble with reliability at the beginning of the season and Ferrari have clearly their shown performance before), but as long as BOP is not 100% based on data, I don't think all participants will be equal.

    The battle for the lead was amazing to watch as well, so at least the turbos were balanced well against each other (sort of).

    The future over the next years might be bright with the new turbo weapons and new cars incoming, but remember past days: There have been Porsches with inverted engine-gearbox layout and there has been a time when one manufacturer built a carbon tub car and suddenly cost exploded and the category was dead. As long as only works cars are affected this may not be the biggest issue, but what about GTE-AM? If all remains uncanged, which I seriously doubt, most of the cars will be red next year.


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    The ACO/FiA does in fact use data for determining BoP. The problem is that they have a nasty habit of introducing politics into the equation whenever it suits them. There were enormous marketing/financial gains to be had (by many interested parties) with the revival of the old " Ferrari vs Ford " Le Mans wars, and because the organizers are under constant pressure to "grow" the series, the temptation to "fiddle the books" is just too much.

    The problem is that this is profoundly disrespectful to the other competitors and can often even put peoples careers at risk.

    Expect to see more of the same "politics" once Peugeot comes on the scene.

     

     


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    I also had the opportunity to watch the Porsche press conference in direct from Le Mans on Friday:

    It was an incredibly emotional event, and not only did my heart go out to Dr. Walliser, but my most profound respect too.

    One thing is quite clear: Dr. Walliser may make mistakes  (like anyone), but his dedication and love for Porsche and Porsche Motorsports are far, far beyond question. Porsche should be proud to have an employee such as Dr. Walliser. An example to us all.


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Spyderidol, I just watched the video of the Porsche press conference, now I know what you mean...emotion, passion and dedication...that is what motorsport is all about.


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    olli:

    Spyderidol, I just watched the video of the Porsche press conference, now I know what you mean...emotion, passion and dedication...that is what motorsport is all about.

    Can you give a link?


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    https://vimeo.com/171311011?ref=tw-share

    Always nice to see the top brass supporting Porsche Motorsports.


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Boyko23:
    olli:

    Spyderidol, I just watched the video of the Porsche press conference, now I know what you mean...emotion, passion and dedication...that is what motorsport is all about.

    Can you give a link?

    https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/motorsports/porsche-le-mans-2016-press-conference-919-hybrid-12610.html


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    Spyderidol:

    The ACO/FiA does in fact use data for determining BoP. The problem is that they have a nasty habit of introducing politics into the equation whenever it suits them. There were enormous marketing/financial gains to be had (by many interested parties) with the revival of the old " Ferrari vs Ford " Le Mans wars, and because the organizers are under constant pressure to "grow" the series, the temptation to "fiddle the books" is just too much.

    The problem is that this is profoundly disrespectful to the other competitors and can often even put peoples careers at risk.

    Expect to see more of the same "politics" once Peugeot comes on the scene.

    Well as far as Porsche and Corvette goes, both the RSRs and one Corvette straight up broke. Whether they were faster or not, the cars both failed. 4 Fords entered and 4 Fords finished. That has nothing to do with BoP.

    The Fords and Ferraris were equal. Were the AMs and Corvettes a bit slow? I guess, but maybe those cars are just slower in general. It becomes a question of should you lower two competitive cars to the level of two slower cars, or should you ask the slower cars to brought up a notch? Weren't Corvettes, 911s, and AMs slower in other races too? Can I enter GTE with an intentionally slower car just to force restrictions on faster cars?


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    If you listened to what Porsche were saying during the race you would know that because of the unfavorable BoP, the drivers were having to really push the cars and hitting the curbs so hard just to try and keep up. This proved too much for the cars.

    BoP  often allows the cars that are favored , to race with a safety margin in their pockets. It is much easier on the cars.

    So, Yes, it does have something to do with BoP.

    Furthermore you miss the point of BoP.

    BoP is supposed to bring all the cars into a "window of performance.". Obviously, this year that window was an extremely large bay window.

    There is also a 7%  performance gap that is required (by the ACO) between the GTE and LMP2 class. The Fords were so favored that they managed to violate this gap during the race. Ferrari have issued a protest against Ford for this violation.


    Re: 24H Le Mans this week end

    tso:

    I forgot one thing....CONGRATULATIONS to Futch on the 2nd spot.

     wink

    Our man... Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


     
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