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    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Once "the Germans" start releasing their premium electric cars Tesla will end up as a brand in the GM / Ford portfolio. 


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    I like that he did that, he is spicy and does not take any crap.. especially from some low life "critic" 

    Bigger news will be if we actually get to see the Model 3 this March, a lot is riding on it for Tesla. I think once the model 3 has successfully launched, Tesla has really arrived at the car scene as a big player.. others will be playing catch up for a while if not forever because Tesla is simply EV focused and forward thinking. Coupled with software technology, it'll always have a step on the big boys. 


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    

    Re: Banned By Tesla

    RC:
    SciFrog:

    For Germany the aux engine wouldn't be enough to sustain high speed on the autobahn anyway... How many people drive full throttle in Germany though? I suspect not that many.

    True but most M5, S63, etc. drivers I "meet" on the Autobahn are usually going faster than many Porsches I meet. I never really understood that, so many 911 drivers are driving below 200 kph on the Autobahn. Smiley

    Because M5 and S63 feels "apparently" safer and more stable to drive at those speeds than a 911, that is always shacking and you have to focus on the steering and on road which is great for us car nuts, but not for majority of 911 owners who have this cars to show off or only because they always wanted a 911.


    --

    J.Seven

     

     


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    J.Seven:
    RC:
    SciFrog:

    For Germany the aux engine wouldn't be enough to sustain high speed on the autobahn anyway... How many people drive full throttle in Germany though? I suspect not that many.

    True but most M5, S63, etc. drivers I "meet" on the Autobahn are usually going faster than many Porsches I meet. I never really understood that, so many 911 drivers are driving below 200 kph on the Autobahn. Smiley

    Because M5 and S63 feels "apparently" safer and more stable to drive at those speeds than a 911, that is always shacking and you have to focus on the steering and on road which is great for us car nuts, but not for majority of 911 owners who have this cars to show off or only because they always wanted a 911.

    Actually, the 991.1 feels pretty safe at those speeds, nothing to complain here. Smiley I agree however on the "show offs", I'm afraid this is very true for many 911 owners. Last time I talked to a buy (991.1 C2 Cab), he asked me how much fuel my car consumes and was mad at Porsche that he cannot get under 12 l / 100 km. Smiley Smiley He was only talking about fuel consumption and driver assist systems, he should have bought a BMW or Mercedes Diesel. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    RC:
    J.Seven:
    RC:
    SciFrog:

    For Germany the aux engine wouldn't be enough to sustain high speed on the autobahn anyway... How many people drive full throttle in Germany though? I suspect not that many.

    True but most M5, S63, etc. drivers I "meet" on the Autobahn are usually going faster than many Porsches I meet. I never really understood that, so many 911 drivers are driving below 200 kph on the Autobahn. Smiley

    Because M5 and S63 feels "apparently" safer and more stable to drive at those speeds than a 911, that is always shacking and you have to focus on the steering and on road which is great for us car nuts, but not for majority of 911 owners who have this cars to show off or only because they always wanted a 911.

    Actually, the 991.1 feels pretty safe at those speeds, nothing to complain here. Smiley I agree however on the "show offs", I'm afraid this is very true for many 911 owners. Last time I talked to a buy (991.1 C2 Cab), he asked me how much fuel my car consumes and was mad at Porsche that he cannot get under 12 l / 100 km. Smiley Smiley He was only talking about fuel consumption and driver assist systems, he should have bought a BMW or Mercedes Diesel. Smiley

    Yes the 991.1 is more stable than 997.2 at those speeds. The 997.2 untill 220Kph is stable, but after this speed you need to be really focus and have both hands on the wheel to get the car where you want, contrary to M5 or S63 where at 250Kph you´re tottaly relaxed lestean to some good tunes and thinking about life Smiley


    --

    J.Seven

     

     


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    The real scary Porsches on the highway are the old air cooled ones from the 70s and 80s. They tend to get really twitchy at high speeds and require busy hands to go straight. Everything after the 993 is stable as a rock at speeds by comparison. Feeling nostalgic 


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Leawood911:

    The real scary Porsches on the highway are the old air cooled ones from the 70s and 80s. They tend to get really twitchy at high speeds and require busy hands to go straight. Everything after the 993 is stable as a rock at speeds by comparison. Feeling nostalgic 

    I remember how my 993 felt after having driven a M3 (first 6-cyl. model with 286 hp in Germany) for two years and I really hated the 993 at higher speeds.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Sometimes when you read this board you think in Germany everyone drives super fast and drives a sport car. In real life most people probably don't even think driving faster than 200kph... That's if their car can reach that safely...


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    SciFrog:

    Sometimes when you read this board you think in Germany everyone drives super fast and drives a sport car. In real life most people probably don't even think driving faster than 200kph... That's if their car can reach that safely...

    Average speed (not by measurement but personal experience) on the Autobahn over here is 160-180 kph, with some hitting 200 or 210 kph at some point but not for long. Not more. Usually, when I drive 260 (or 240 kph now, in winter time, limited by winter tires) in my Jeep SRT, I am the fastest car on the Autobahn. Very seldom I have someone pass me (actually, for the past years, no one Smiley) and I usually don't drive at Vmax in my 911 GTS but "only" at around 280 kph because this is the speed I usually reach before I have to brake again.

    It is (unfortunately) different, when it rains or snows: This is when I drive very very careful, adapting all the time to weather conditions. Most people on the Autobahn however pass me...and I can drive in rain and snow but the risk variables are too many to consider them all, so no thanks, I keep it slower, especially with wife and kids onboard.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Then Tesla might not be so dead for Germany angry


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    SciFrog:

    Then Tesla might not be so dead for Germany angry

    Tesla has various problems in Germany right now:

    1. Price (very expensive, we always compare this car to the BMW i3 Smiley).

    2. Quality (BMW, Mercedes, Audi...better quality, especially in the interior).

    3. Interior: Too much high tech (I love it), most Germans I know hate it.

    4. Charging takes too long.

    5. There isn't a Tesla dealer in every city, service network is too thin.

    6. Germans have a bad opinion about US cars, their reputation is bad. Tesla has a good reputation over here as the maker of electric cars but when people are asked what they would buy, they would get a BMW or something else instead. Not that there are many (if any) alternatives to Tesla but people express their opinion.

    The moment a larger German car manufacturer puts a Tesla-like product on the market, Tesla is dead in Germany.

    The biggest challenge for Tesla will arise when larger car manufacturers start to penetrate their (monopoly) business. It will happen sooner or later and Tesla will be hit hard. The Tesla X won't save them, it is probably the right product at the wrong time (too late) because it may take a while before Tesla actually becomes profitable.

    Be honest: What would you buy for the same price and same performance? A Tesla or a BMW or Mercedes? This is where Tesla biggest problem lies...the competition and what they could do if they enter their market.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    What saves Tesla for now is that the germans cannot put a real competitor of Tesla on the road. It would be bad for all their engine investments and factories. And it is years down the road before it happens at a reasonable price point. By then Tesla has a chance to improve the interiors, after all they will need to up their game if they want to distinguish the model 3 and the model S. If you think even further, they are probably holding back the current model interiors, good for them, bad for consumers.


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    SciFrog:

    What saves Tesla for now is that the germans cannot put a real competitor of Tesla on the road. It would be bad for all their engine investments and factories. And it is years down the road before it happens at a reasonable price point. By then Tesla has a chance to improve the interiors, after all they will need to up their game if they want to distinguish the model 3 and the model S. If you think even further, they are probably holding back the current model interiors, good for them, bad for consumers.

    Tesla has a huge (development/experience) advantage over German car makers.

    German car makers don't want to invest into something they may not consider profitable (yet), Tesla is the best example for that.

    I still believe that at some point, German car makers will start with some serious hybrid offers, especially when fuel prices go up again. The path to fully electric cars won't be far but only with new battery tech, these cars will succeed.

    The sad thing is: Tesla may become (or already is) a real pioneer in the EV business but in the end, he may also be the biggest loser.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    SciFrog:

    What saves Tesla for now is that the germans cannot put a real competitor of Tesla on the road. It would be bad for all their engine investments and factories. And it is years down the road before it happens at a reasonable price point. By then Tesla has a chance to improve the interiors, after all they will need to up their game if they want to distinguish the model 3 and the model S. If you think even further, they are probably holding back the current model interiors, good for them, bad for consumers.

    All of the german car brands could release a strong Tesla competitor tomorrow. In terms of investment the development of the next generation VW Golf costs more than Tesla has invested in R&D since it's been founded. The reason why we don't see real Tesla competitors is that BMW's (or Audi's or Merc's) clients have much, much higher expectations in terms of car's practicality (range). Put a BMW badge on a Tesla car and you will hear the clients and the press declaring it a flop. Tesla is a way overhyped startup that can get away with everything. But that's only possible when you have the company's boss talking about self-driving cars and Mars colonies all the time and thousands of overexcited journalists quoting him.

     


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Yes, you are right, the tech is here (Tesla has done a lot of work for the competitors ) but I think that the real reason why German car manufacturers don't put a Tesla competitor on the road is much more simple: Cost. Such a car wouldn't make any sense from a profit point of view. What for? Image? German car manufacturers live well with their current image, no need to change it (oh well, I think VW needs a bit of extra work here... indecision).

    If a Tesla competitor would be profitable, German car manufacturers would try to make one and very likely succeed.

    This doesn't mean Tesla isn't making fantastic cars but without a profit, their work is basically worthless (for them).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Then Tesla might not be so dead for Germany angry

    Tesla has various problems in Germany right now:

    1. Price (very expensive, we always compare this car to the BMW i3 Smiley).

    2. Quality (BMW, Mercedes, Audi...better quality, especially in the interior).

    3. Interior: Too much high tech (I love it), most Germans I know hate it.

    4. Charging takes too long.

    5. There isn't a Tesla dealer in every city, service network is too thin.

    6. Germans have a bad opinion about US cars, their reputation is bad. Tesla has a good reputation over here as the maker of electric cars but when people are asked what they would buy, they would get a BMW or something else instead. Not that there are many (if any) alternatives to Tesla but people express their opinion.

    The moment a larger German car manufacturer puts a Tesla-like product on the market, Tesla is dead in Germany.

    The biggest challenge for Tesla will arise when larger car manufacturers start to penetrate their (monopoly) business. It will happen sooner or later and Tesla will be hit hard. The Tesla X won't save them, it is probably the right product at the wrong time (too late) because it may take a while before Tesla actually becomes profitable.

    Be honest: What would you buy for the same price and same performance? A Tesla or a BMW or Mercedes? This is where Tesla biggest problem lies...the competition and what they could do if they enter their market.

    Tesla has the supercharger network to support the cars. If the other manufacturers develop something similar (even if it is not totally free) then Tesla will be history. i3 is nice, if it gets access to supercharges it will become a huge success even with current limited range.


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    The Supercharger network is of course a good thing for Tesla but their stations in Europe are rare.

    Just imagine every single BMW or Mercedes dealer in Europe would offer a Supercharger, even on weekends and at night. This will happen if the larger manufacturers start to enter the EV business seriously.

     I still think however that we need a new battery tech. Even fueling up the car with fuel takes too long , now just imagine people waiting 15-20 minutes for a battery charge. Impossible.

    This is also why I think that hybrids have a better market chance...for now.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    For home owners recharging a Tesla takes no time. Go home, plug it, it's ready in the morning. You never have to go to a gas station again...


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Then Tesla might not be so dead for Germany angry

    Tesla has various problems in Germany right now:

    1. Price (very expensive, we always compare this car to the BMW i3 Smiley).

    2. Quality (BMW, Mercedes, Audi...better quality, especially in the interior).

    3. Interior: Too much high tech (I love it), most Germans I know hate it.

    4. Charging takes too long.

    5. There isn't a Tesla dealer in every city, service network is too thin.

    6. Germans have a bad opinion about US cars, their reputation is bad. Tesla has a good reputation over here as the maker of electric cars but when people are asked what they would buy, they would get a BMW or something else instead. Not that there are many (if any) alternatives to Tesla but people express their opinion.

    The moment a larger German car manufacturer puts a Tesla-like product on the market, Tesla is dead in Germany.

    The biggest challenge for Tesla will arise when larger car manufacturers start to penetrate their (monopoly) business. It will happen sooner or later and Tesla will be hit hard. The Tesla X won't save them, it is probably the right product at the wrong time (too late) because it may take a while before Tesla actually becomes profitable.

    Be honest: What would you buy for the same price and same performance? A Tesla or a BMW or Mercedes? This is where Tesla biggest problem lies...the competition and what they could do if they enter their market.

    The model X will bite Tesla in the a$$, instead of  "wasting" time and resources developing this car in the past two years, they should have had a full commitment to the Model 3 and made sure it would roll out now! That way they could have grabbed 100,000s of sales before the big guys could compete. It's as you say, once they do, Tesla is dead. I too would way rather get a Benz over a Tesla. 


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    

    Re: Banned By Tesla

    SciFrog:

    For home owners recharging a Tesla takes no time. Go home, plug it, it's ready in the morning. You never have to go to a gas station again...

    That's the way it works at our house.

    Simple.  No problems.


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Anyone with first hand feelings about the X? My garage is adding chargers so probably could get one now, how is the space in second row, the cargo space with seats down and comfort in third row?


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    I posted about the X a while ago, seeing the real thing in person last year at CES.

    There is no comfort in the 3rd row, good enough for perhaps 8 year olds only, the rear face seats in the Model S has more room than the 3rd row. A Mercedes GL has more room in the 3rd row.

    Middle row is tight, one sit very upright, not much leg room either. The good seats only the front 2.

    Not sure if Tesla changed the seating, but the prototype I saw at CES the middle row doesn't folds. So with the 3rd row folded, cargo room is perhaps between a Macan and a Cayenne.


    --

     

     


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    I think the middle seats are now different, they are on a single post.


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    section-interior-primary-white-touch.jpg

    Straight from Tesla's website. See how tight the middle and 3rd is for leg room?

     


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    Re: Banned By Tesla

    It's not a 7 seater, total false advertising. That 3rd row is terrible, but so are most others too I guess. It's for small children and I guess a great alternative to the boring and out of trend minivans from past decades.


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    

    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Atzporsche:

    It's not a 7 seater, total false advertising. That 3rd row is terrible, but so are most others too I guess. It's for small children and I guess a POOR alternative to the boring and out of trend minivans from past decades.

     

    Corrected. 

    Full sized adults can sit comfortably in the 3rd row of a minivan.

    These are called dog seats. Like the back seats of 911s. Or California. For non-humans only.


    --

     

     


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Ya true, but you know what I meant broken heart


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    

    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Before Tesla gets the model 3 to market, it looks like GM might have nearly perfected the transportation appliance for those who don't really like cars anyway.

    http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2016/Jan/naias/chevy/0111-bolt-du.htm...

     


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    Gladstone:

    Before Tesla gets the model 3 to market, it looks like GM might have nearly perfected the transportation appliance for those who don't really like cars anyway.

    http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2016/Jan/naias/chevy/0111-bolt-du.htm...

     

    Tesla should have concentrated on affordable EV products, kind of something like the T-model for Ford back early last century. Now Tesla faces the huge risk of other companies putting such a model on the market, ruining their business model at some point. Just imagine an affordable (under 30k, maybe even under 20k USD) EV with a good range (over 200 mls), fast charging, good performance and nice entertainment tech. Tesla would be dead over night.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Banned By Tesla

    “Interviews with EV enthusiasts indicated their desire for one pedal driving capability on the Bolt EV.  One pedal operation boosts the thrill and uniqueness of EV driving,” Tavel said.

     


     
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