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    RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3934


    Well, I didn't expect much from a handling perspective when the thing weighs 2200kgs, but "the kick" is what its all about... (for me anyways)

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    Quote:
    ///AMG Mercedes said:
    http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3934


    Well, I didn't expect much from a handling perspective when the thing weighs 2200kgs, but "the kick" is what its all about... (for me anyways)



    If AMG would make a lightweight SL65 with max. 1800 kg and a fixed roof, it would be the hell of a car, especially if they also adapt the steering.
    I had problems to put 476 HP on the street on my former E55 and the burnout shows very well how difficult it is to put 612 HP on the ground. Traction problems are the biggest fun killer.
    If traction sucks, the whole car sucks. This is why I really urge AMG to offer a LSD as a standard option on their cars. They badly need it!

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    Quote:
    ///AMG Mercedes said:
    http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3934


    Well, I didn't expect much from a handling perspective when the thing weighs 2200kgs, but "the kick" is what its all about... (for me anyways)



    If AMG would make a lightweight SL65 with max. 1800 kg and a fixed roof, it would be the hell of a car, especially if they also adapt the steering.
    I had problems to put 476 HP on the street on my former E55 and the burnout shows very well how difficult it is to put 612 HP on the ground. Traction problems are the biggest fun killer.
    If traction sucks, the whole car sucks. This is why I really urge AMG to offer a LSD as a standard option on their cars. They badly need it!

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    In Antwort auf:
    RC said:
    In Antwort auf:
    ///AMG Mercedes said:
    http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3934


    Well, I didn't expect much from a handling perspective when the thing weighs 2200kgs, but "the kick" is what its all about... (for me anyways)



    If AMG would make a lightweight SL65 with max. 1800 kg and a fixed roof, it would be the hell of a car, especially if they also adapt the steering.
    I had problems to put 476 HP on the street on my former E55 and the burnout shows very well how difficult it is to put 612 HP on the ground. Traction problems are the biggest fun killer.
    If traction sucks, the whole car sucks. This is why I really urge AMG to offer a LSD as a standard option on their cars. They badly need it!



    Better to have 400 hp in a 1200 kg car than 800 in a 2000+

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    In Antwort auf:
    RC said:
    In Antwort auf:
    ///AMG Mercedes said:
    http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3934


    Well, I didn't expect much from a handling perspective when the thing weighs 2200kgs, but "the kick" is what its all about... (for me anyways)



    If AMG would make a lightweight SL65 with max. 1800 kg and a fixed roof, it would be the hell of a car, especially if they also adapt the steering.
    I had problems to put 476 HP on the street on my former E55 and the burnout shows very well how difficult it is to put 612 HP on the ground. Traction problems are the biggest fun killer.
    If traction sucks, the whole car sucks. This is why I really urge AMG to offer a LSD as a standard option on their cars. They badly need it!



    Better to have 400 hp in a 1200 kg car than 800 in a 2000+

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    rossi, I'm realistic, I don't expect a 400 HP car with 1200 kg weight from any manufacturer anymore. And a Lotus Elise with 400 HP wouldn't really be a product I want. I want also a bit of luxury and some comfort too (getting old I guess ).
    A 400 HP car with 1350 kg weight would be nice though. And this is possible, even with some comfort goodies like A/C, power steering and a nice HiFi system.
    I don't understand why the weight on Mercedes cars went up like that over the past years but I suppose it has to do with production cost. BMW does a much better job lately (though the M3 E46 isn't the best example for lightweight) and Porsche still plays in the right league but the Cayenne is the worst example for weight on the car, even if I heard that they did it by purpose for the US market (cars exceeding a certain weight can be used by companies as "trucks" with a lot of financial advantages).
    If car companies would limit the weight of sportscars at 1400 kg, of limousines at 1800 kg and of SUVs at 2200 kg, I'd be a happy man. Unfortunately I really think that the weight will go up because of safety regulations and, as always, cost.

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    rossi, I'm realistic, I don't expect a 400 HP car with 1200 kg weight from any manufacturer anymore. And a Lotus Elise with 400 HP wouldn't really be a product I want. I want also a bit of luxury and some comfort too (getting old I guess ).
    A 400 HP car with 1350 kg weight would be nice though. And this is possible, even with some comfort goodies like A/C, power steering and a nice HiFi system.
    I don't understand why the weight on Mercedes cars went up like that over the past years but I suppose it has to do with production cost. BMW does a much better job lately (though the M3 E46 isn't the best example for lightweight) and Porsche still plays in the right league but the Cayenne is the worst example for weight on the car, even if I heard that they did it by purpose for the US market (cars exceeding a certain weight can be used by companies as "trucks" with a lot of financial advantages).
    If car companies would limit the weight of sportscars at 1400 kg, of limousines at 1800 kg and of SUVs at 2200 kg, I'd be a happy man. Unfortunately I really think that the weight will go up because of safety regulations and, as always, cost.

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    As stated before...

    Thats just it RC that cannot happen.

    The torque of the AMG motors doesn't allow them to be installed in just any car, the transmission, crankshaft, rear subframe all require *extensive* reinforcement. MB's prioirity, wrong at times, is to always focus on bringing the latest tech and gadgets onto a car. They do not invest heavily in new lighter materials like alumiunum and composite steel. Then once an SL500 is fully tricked out with gadgets they send this car to AMG and ask them to make it outaccelerate a Porsche 911 GT2.

    Add the weight of new tech to the weight of a regularly constructed car and you end up with somewhere near 1800kgs. Give it to AMG, what is required? A 1000nm at 1800rpm producing motor...done. Now place engine into car, do all rewuired driveline reinforcements, what do you have? A 200mph+ two ton beast. Thats not all, add 18inch brakes, 19inch heavy alloys, and what do you have? The SL65.

    The best asset of the SL, handling wise is its roof, it gives the SL55 near perfect 48:52 front:rear weight distribution, but the 2 tons offsets this completely.


    You can have a stripped out SL, with no tech, which will weigh something in the reigion of 1700kgs, but with a 6.0L V12 Bi-Turbo up front, you ain't gonna get ANY steering feel. Why do you think cars like the 360, 911 Gallardo, and all supercars have loads of steering feel? Engine in back thats why. And frankly, unless Mercedes starts building a rear engined car to give to AMG to modify, you're not going to get any steering feel anytime sooon

    As for designs, its all objective, IMO all the recent MB designs are so damn good, they get admiration from even Ford fans!

    The looks of Mercedes cars everytime you get out of one, *almost* makes you forgive their souless driving characteristics

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    As stated before...

    Thats just it RC that cannot happen.

    The torque of the AMG motors doesn't allow them to be installed in just any car, the transmission, crankshaft, rear subframe all require *extensive* reinforcement. MB's prioirity, wrong at times, is to always focus on bringing the latest tech and gadgets onto a car. They do not invest heavily in new lighter materials like alumiunum and composite steel. Then once an SL500 is fully tricked out with gadgets they send this car to AMG and ask them to make it outaccelerate a Porsche 911 GT2.

    Add the weight of new tech to the weight of a regularly constructed car and you end up with somewhere near 1800kgs. Give it to AMG, what is required? A 1000nm at 1800rpm producing motor...done. Now place engine into car, do all rewuired driveline reinforcements, what do you have? A 200mph+ two ton beast. Thats not all, add 18inch brakes, 19inch heavy alloys, and what do you have? The SL65.

    The best asset of the SL, handling wise is its roof, it gives the SL55 near perfect 48:52 front:rear weight distribution, but the 2 tons offsets this completely.


    You can have a stripped out SL, with no tech, which will weigh something in the reigion of 1700kgs, but with a 6.0L V12 Bi-Turbo up front, you ain't gonna get ANY steering feel. Why do you think cars like the 360, 911 Gallardo, and all supercars have loads of steering feel? Engine in back thats why. And frankly, unless Mercedes starts building a rear engined car to give to AMG to modify, you're not going to get any steering feel anytime sooon

    As for designs, its all objective, IMO all the recent MB designs are so damn good, they get admiration from even Ford fans!

    The looks of Mercedes cars everytime you get out of one, *almost* makes you forgive their souless driving characteristics

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    Quote:
    RC said:
    rossi, I'm realistic, I don't expect a 400 HP car with 1200 kg weight from any manufacturer anymore.



    ... TVR!

    however, lack but dealer infrastructure for maintenance and repairs, unknown reliabilty in long run, very radical setup and handling (no electronic aids) for everyday streets, etc. is another thing, but nevertheless:

    TVR Cervera 4.5: 1178Kg and 420HP
    TVR Tamora: 1060Kg and 350HP
    TVR Tuscan R (T440R): 1060Kg and 440HP (the giant killer )

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    Quote:
    RC said:
    rossi, I'm realistic, I don't expect a 400 HP car with 1200 kg weight from any manufacturer anymore.



    ... TVR!

    however, lack but dealer infrastructure for maintenance and repairs, unknown reliabilty in long run, very radical setup and handling (no electronic aids) for everyday streets, etc. is another thing, but nevertheless:

    TVR Cervera 4.5: 1178Kg and 420HP
    TVR Tamora: 1060Kg and 350HP
    TVR Tuscan R (T440R): 1060Kg and 440HP (the giant killer )

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    Bilal, I'm not quite sure what weight distribution has to do with steering feel but I agree with you to the point where you state that Mercedes develops the "base" models and passes them on to AMG to transform them into sportscars. This can't work. Of course the SL65 AMG is an impressive piece of a car and it was a wise decision from AMG to offer the LSD as a standard option. I also agree with the looks of Mercedes cars lately, the SL is beautiful, the E-class too and the new SLK, especially the SLK 55, is a real design masterpiece. I know a lot of people won't agree but we shouldn't be blind towards design. The only "problem" Mercedes cars have, is their image among Porsche and Ferrari enthusiasts: Mercedes cars are considered to be dull, boring, only for old people and...too many on the streets. I agree, I can see a SL almost at any corner here in Germany but so do I see a 996 or Boxster at almost any corner. Exclusivity isn't that important to me because I'm a driver and have fuel in my blood but I have to confess that I feel much better in a Porsche than in a Mercedes, even if Porsche cars lost some of their exclusivity lately. But maybe we "arrogant" Porsche, Ferrari and don't know what super expensive sportscar owners should change our views a little bit: look at an ordinary 25-year old worker who is happy to be able to afford a new VW Polo. For him a Mercedes E-class or a BMW 5-series are out of this world, absolutely dreamcars.
    Bashing the SL is like an insult to people who can't afford such a car because the SL really is an expensive toy and like it or not, very attractive from a design point of view.
    That said, I think we should be much more open minded towards other brands and products. It is easy to condemn AMG for their products without ever even haven driven one.
    I liked my former E55 AMG and I wish my dealer would have been capable of fixing all the problems I had. I also wish I would have enough money to be able to drive and own a Cayenne Turbo AND a E55 AMG. I put so much money in my E55 (300 kph speed limit, LSD install, manual shifting remapping, etc.) and it felt really bad when I gave this car away. That said I think the SL65 is a great product and people who don't drive to the track and need a somehow less "flashy" look on a car, should definetely take the SL65 in consideration. Compared to cars like the GT2, even the price tag is attractive.

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    Bilal, I'm not quite sure what weight distribution has to do with steering feel but I agree with you to the point where you state that Mercedes develops the "base" models and passes them on to AMG to transform them into sportscars. This can't work. Of course the SL65 AMG is an impressive piece of a car and it was a wise decision from AMG to offer the LSD as a standard option. I also agree with the looks of Mercedes cars lately, the SL is beautiful, the E-class too and the new SLK, especially the SLK 55, is a real design masterpiece. I know a lot of people won't agree but we shouldn't be blind towards design. The only "problem" Mercedes cars have, is their image among Porsche and Ferrari enthusiasts: Mercedes cars are considered to be dull, boring, only for old people and...too many on the streets. I agree, I can see a SL almost at any corner here in Germany but so do I see a 996 or Boxster at almost any corner. Exclusivity isn't that important to me because I'm a driver and have fuel in my blood but I have to confess that I feel much better in a Porsche than in a Mercedes, even if Porsche cars lost some of their exclusivity lately. But maybe we "arrogant" Porsche, Ferrari and don't know what super expensive sportscar owners should change our views a little bit: look at an ordinary 25-year old worker who is happy to be able to afford a new VW Polo. For him a Mercedes E-class or a BMW 5-series are out of this world, absolutely dreamcars.
    Bashing the SL is like an insult to people who can't afford such a car because the SL really is an expensive toy and like it or not, very attractive from a design point of view.
    That said, I think we should be much more open minded towards other brands and products. It is easy to condemn AMG for their products without ever even haven driven one.
    I liked my former E55 AMG and I wish my dealer would have been capable of fixing all the problems I had. I also wish I would have enough money to be able to drive and own a Cayenne Turbo AND a E55 AMG. I put so much money in my E55 (300 kph speed limit, LSD install, manual shifting remapping, etc.) and it felt really bad when I gave this car away. That said I think the SL65 is a great product and people who don't drive to the track and need a somehow less "flashy" look on a car, should definetely take the SL65 in consideration. Compared to cars like the GT2, even the price tag is attractive.

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    What I meant was that when you have hardly any weight that an engine adds over the front wheels you have lot of steering feel, a reason why Lotuses and rear engined Supercars have so much steering feel that you will never find in a Limousine or any other car...One comparison is the BMW M3 which has apparently loads of steering feel since it has a very lightweight engine compared to a 5.5 V8 that the C55 adds, I don't know the C55 may have "some" feel but for enthusiasts, the M3 is still the preferred choice, for other reasons as well.
    I agree exclusivity isn't much anymore since everybody seems to be able to take a bite of the Porsche and Mercedes cake but still, I can say when you drive a 996 T or a SL55, you aren't exactly considered as ordinary folk. Here in Britain you need to go to London to find good cars, otherwise with all our motoring costs we're restricted to purchasing Polo Gti's and Imprezas for fun Sad but true

    Well, the E55, what can you say, I mean the new M5 will apparently destroy it but for 60K GBP I swear there is no better all round car. 208mph, supreme comfort and the right badge. It will satisfy some but make other looks elsewhere. The new M5 from what Ive heard sounds like a ferrari, I'm not sure if everyone wants an 8000rpm, 360 CS sounding, 4 door saloon, but then again, similar could be said of the E55. The real difference will come when the new 500+bhp E63 with 7 speed transmission will come.

    Anyways regarding AMG, there are times when you think a 5 speed auto with such disconnected steering at times make you want to look elsewhere completely. But then again no one else has supreme comfort and 700Nm at 2700rpm Its a love/hate relationship with me at times with other marques as well. I know some people can stick to one brand and adore it for years, but Im past that. All I want is an SMG equipped AMG Mercedes with 6 or 7 gears and instant throttle response (no adeptive throttle malarky) and loads of steering feel, but with some ride comfort. Its just so easy to mix and match characteristics of different cars but its not possible in real life. Until then we just have to have the best car we can afford/want/need/like/love etc.

    "There is no perfect car"

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    What I meant was that when you have hardly any weight that an engine adds over the front wheels you have lot of steering feel, a reason why Lotuses and rear engined Supercars have so much steering feel that you will never find in a Limousine or any other car...One comparison is the BMW M3 which has apparently loads of steering feel since it has a very lightweight engine compared to a 5.5 V8 that the C55 adds, I don't know the C55 may have "some" feel but for enthusiasts, the M3 is still the preferred choice, for other reasons as well.
    I agree exclusivity isn't much anymore since everybody seems to be able to take a bite of the Porsche and Mercedes cake but still, I can say when you drive a 996 T or a SL55, you aren't exactly considered as ordinary folk. Here in Britain you need to go to London to find good cars, otherwise with all our motoring costs we're restricted to purchasing Polo Gti's and Imprezas for fun Sad but true

    Well, the E55, what can you say, I mean the new M5 will apparently destroy it but for 60K GBP I swear there is no better all round car. 208mph, supreme comfort and the right badge. It will satisfy some but make other looks elsewhere. The new M5 from what Ive heard sounds like a ferrari, I'm not sure if everyone wants an 8000rpm, 360 CS sounding, 4 door saloon, but then again, similar could be said of the E55. The real difference will come when the new 500+bhp E63 with 7 speed transmission will come.

    Anyways regarding AMG, there are times when you think a 5 speed auto with such disconnected steering at times make you want to look elsewhere completely. But then again no one else has supreme comfort and 700Nm at 2700rpm Its a love/hate relationship with me at times with other marques as well. I know some people can stick to one brand and adore it for years, but Im past that. All I want is an SMG equipped AMG Mercedes with 6 or 7 gears and instant throttle response (no adeptive throttle malarky) and loads of steering feel, but with some ride comfort. Its just so easy to mix and match characteristics of different cars but its not possible in real life. Until then we just have to have the best car we can afford/want/need/like/love etc.

    "There is no perfect car"

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    In Antwort auf:
    RC said:
    rossi, I'm realistic, I don't expect a 400 HP car with 1200 kg weight from any manufacturer anymore. And a Lotus Elise with 400 HP wouldn't really be a product I want. I want also a bit of luxury and some comfort too (getting old I guess ).
    A 400 HP car with 1350 kg weight would be nice though. And this is possible, even with some comfort goodies like A/C, power steering and a nice HiFi system.
    I don't understand why the weight on Mercedes cars went up like that over the past years but I suppose it has to do with production cost. BMW does a much better job lately (though the M3 E46 isn't the best example for lightweight) and Porsche still plays in the right league but the Cayenne is the worst example for weight on the car, even if I heard that they did it by purpose for the US market (cars exceeding a certain weight can be used by companies as "trucks" with a lot of financial advantages).
    If car companies would limit the weight of sportscars at 1400 kg, of limousines at 1800 kg and of SUVs at 2200 kg, I'd be a happy man. Unfortunately I really think that the weight will go up because of safety regulations and, as always, cost.



    You're absolutely right, I don't expect it either

    But cars like the Modena or GT3 for example get quite close to that ideal. And I would really much appreciate your above mentioned weight limit for certain car classes!

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    In Antwort auf:
    RC said:
    rossi, I'm realistic, I don't expect a 400 HP car with 1200 kg weight from any manufacturer anymore. And a Lotus Elise with 400 HP wouldn't really be a product I want. I want also a bit of luxury and some comfort too (getting old I guess ).
    A 400 HP car with 1350 kg weight would be nice though. And this is possible, even with some comfort goodies like A/C, power steering and a nice HiFi system.
    I don't understand why the weight on Mercedes cars went up like that over the past years but I suppose it has to do with production cost. BMW does a much better job lately (though the M3 E46 isn't the best example for lightweight) and Porsche still plays in the right league but the Cayenne is the worst example for weight on the car, even if I heard that they did it by purpose for the US market (cars exceeding a certain weight can be used by companies as "trucks" with a lot of financial advantages).
    If car companies would limit the weight of sportscars at 1400 kg, of limousines at 1800 kg and of SUVs at 2200 kg, I'd be a happy man. Unfortunately I really think that the weight will go up because of safety regulations and, as always, cost.



    You're absolutely right, I don't expect it either

    But cars like the Modena or GT3 for example get quite close to that ideal. And I would really much appreciate your above mentioned weight limit for certain car classes!

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    Bilal,
    I'm still confused as to your reasoning behind steering feel. The reasons you have explained seemed far fetched and maybe you are picking the wrong common factor of cars that have poor steering feel. Maybe you are really talking about power steering levels instead. There's no reason a front engined car cannot have excellent steering feel and history has shown plenty of vehicles to prove it.

    Maybe you know something that I don't?

    - J

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    Bilal,
    I'm still confused as to your reasoning behind steering feel. The reasons you have explained seemed far fetched and maybe you are picking the wrong common factor of cars that have poor steering feel. Maybe you are really talking about power steering levels instead. There's no reason a front engined car cannot have excellent steering feel and history has shown plenty of vehicles to prove it.

    Maybe you know something that I don't?

    - J

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    I had a Nissan Micra once, small hatchback, no power steering at all. It had a 1.3L engine up front, front wheel drive. Now I'm not comparing that to Porsches and Ferraris and since I've not driven many cars I can't really judge, but I swear that car had so much steering feel I was amazed.

    Instant throttle response, heavy clutch, 2.7 turns lock to lock steering, it got me thinking aren't these chracteristics of a bread and butter supercar?

    Sure it was unstable, uncomfortable and a pain to be seen in, but you give me another car with those chracteristics and about 600bhp, thats my dream car....and since many reviews praise rear engined cars for steering feel, and the comments about heavy engines up front dulling feel, I thought it must be logical that only cars such as the 360M and 911 T could have such steering feel?

    Giving heavy steering once speed is upped is not good for feel IMO, the Micra had such heavy steering at low speeds, but once it got moving, even the slightest turn of the wheel changed direction like a fly, boy I miss that car

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    I had a Nissan Micra once, small hatchback, no power steering at all. It had a 1.3L engine up front, front wheel drive. Now I'm not comparing that to Porsches and Ferraris and since I've not driven many cars I can't really judge, but I swear that car had so much steering feel I was amazed.

    Instant throttle response, heavy clutch, 2.7 turns lock to lock steering, it got me thinking aren't these chracteristics of a bread and butter supercar?

    Sure it was unstable, uncomfortable and a pain to be seen in, but you give me another car with those chracteristics and about 600bhp, thats my dream car....and since many reviews praise rear engined cars for steering feel, and the comments about heavy engines up front dulling feel, I thought it must be logical that only cars such as the 360M and 911 T could have such steering feel?

    Giving heavy steering once speed is upped is not good for feel IMO, the Micra had such heavy steering at low speeds, but once it got moving, even the slightest turn of the wheel changed direction like a fly, boy I miss that car

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    More weight up front usually requires a higher level of power steering boost, hence a decrease in steering feel.

    Re: RS6 guys drive CL65, pics....

    More weight up front usually requires a higher level of power steering boost, hence a decrease in steering feel.

     
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