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    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    You think the Ferrari's were as fast as the McLaren's today? really? you saw the lap times on hards vs soft today, and you followed the drivers fduring these years? I don't think I'm even going to bother Smiley your statement is too unreal. One thing is to have a big prejudice against a certain driver influencing what you see, that happens to all of us, but another is being blind. Like I said, I dislike Hamilton the most by far, but you have to be objective and give credit when its due and he is really deserving it this season, I would rather it be Button than Hamilton but thats the way it is. 

    But FWIW, what I described about Hamilton is about him inside the track, not outside the track which would be Alonso's case.


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    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

     Hamilton loves to give himself credit and talk about how good he is.  Alonso is a MUCH more humble person.  I remember back in 2007 or 2008 when Hamilton was talking about how he's a better driver than Schumacher, etc.  Is he a great driver?  There's no doubt about it.  Hamilton is definitely in the top 5, possibly top 3, drivers in F1 right now.  However, he needs to stop talking about himself and start giving others credit.  I don't dislike him as much as I used to (because he's definitely toned this down), but he's still got a long way to go.


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    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Unlike most people here, there is no driver from my country of birth nor from the country I am living now, I do not have a built in bias towards my own fellow countrymen.

    It is a well known fact that Alonso whines about this and that if things don't go HIS way, even starting from his time at Renault. Is that consider better than Hamilton's arrogance? 

    All of the greatest drivers have their arrogance side, or more like self confidence, be it Senna or Schummy, it's that extra edge that they have that drives them to be better than the rest. Even Vettel has already showed us a little of his share.

    The Red Bulls cars are a class of their own, no question about it, the second tier consists of McLaren and Ferrari, with Renault coming close.

    Are the Ferrari that much slower than McLaren? No I don't think so, not with the kind of budget Ferrari is throwing at the team for research. I think there isn't much difference on top speed.I figured IF Hamilton gets in the Ferrari car, he may not post a faster time than in his McLaren, but it won't be too far off.

    On the tire front, it is quite obvious Hamilton has always been more aggressive driver and harder on his tires, Alonso is the smoother one, he should have the advantage on tire wear.

    McLaren's advantage seems to be a higher cornering speed, and that's more about car setup and driver ability than tire traction, it's the same hard and soft tires going into all cars after all, not like McLaren are getting stickier ones. Driver feedback is a big part of setting up cars, so that could be the difference.


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Ferrari is lacking downforce, plain and simple! Both the Red Bull and the McLaren cars are much better in that respect and we all know that F1 is all about downforce nowadays. Being lapped is a humiliating result for the Prancing Horse and it seems that this is another year in the bin! I think it's high time that Luca made some serious changes within the team.


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Whoopsy:

    I figured IF Hamilton gets in the Ferrari car, he may not post a faster time than in the McLaren, but it won't be too far off.

    On the tire front, it is quite obvious Hamilton has always been more aggressive driver and harder on his tires, Alonso is the smoother one, he should have the advantage on tire wear.

    McLaren's advantage seems to be a higher cornering speed, and that's more about car setup and driver ability than tire traction, it's the same hard and soft tires going into all cars after all, not like McLaren are getting stickier ones. Driver feedback is a big part of setting up cars, so that could be the difference.


    You just figured that Hamilton is able to lap 3 seconds a lap faster than Alonso given the same car, because that is what separated Alonso's Ferrari to Hamilton's McLaren. Same hard tires go into all cars? Have you heard about the relation about tire temp and grip? And how each car achieved a different temp, and each driver too depending on his driving style? FYI Hamilton's driving style wears tires quicker but heats them up more and they achieve higher temp than teamate's Button during the weekends. That is good in GP's were they struggke with temp like yestetfay but a handicap in GP's that tires suffer from excesive wear. FYI There were no problems with wear yesterday the problem was with achieving sufficient temperature on the hard compound, that is why on the soft tires, Alonso was in front and holding on, and as soon as the two sets of hards went on, he dropped 3 seconds a lap and ove 1min and 30sec overall and got lapped. FYI the amount of budget does not guarantee results, just ask Toyota, or Mercedes niw. If you review tge last years in F1 it would become apparent.


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    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    It makes me chuckle a bit that we're still discussing whether Hamilton or Alonso is more arrogant than the other ...

    It may affect your choice as to which of them you prefer on a personal level but, at the moment, it's irrelevant to what's happening on track.

    At the moment Vettel is still beating them both - the margin of victory is diminishing - but the result is still the same.

    So, IMvHO, no driver can afford to be arrogant, childish or complacent right now. They each have a job to do.


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    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    BBC's Andrew Benson's F1 blog

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2011/05/xxx.html


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    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Interesting - the BBC's F1 coverage has been so good .... and now they win a BAFTA award :)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13496117.stm

    Great chemistry between Jake Humphrey, David Coulthard & Eddie Jordan ... great race commentary between Martin Brundle and David Coulthard (with the weak link, Jonathan Legard, removed) ... the post-race chatter on F1 Forum ... Twitter BBC F1 feeds ... a great BBC F1 website (with cool blue on black colours) ... Red Button/BBC Online coverage: F1 driver tracker ... superb catch up service on iPlayer (where one can watch all practice, qualification, race and F1 Forum broadcasts for 7 days) ... a 1 hour highlights show on BBC3 (which makes it easy to catch up with a race weekend if one has been away from home on holiday) ...

    The BBC has really raised the bar from what ITV used to provide ... Bravo and thanks very much!


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    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    easy_rider911:


    So, IMvHO, no driver can afford to be arrogant, childish or complacent right now. They each have a job to do.

    Provided that the drivers have the right machinery. McLaren and more so Ferarri  have weaknesses in their packages. Alonso was leading in the early stages. With a RBR car he would have won, like Vettel has done 3 times out of 4 this year. He lost not because he was out-raced by the others but because the pace of the Ferrari was poor. Ferrari for all their legendary reputation have a very poor technical team this season (so far).


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    "But the pace of the McLaren throughout the Spanish Grand Prix suggested Hamilton, on scintillating form, would have been able to take the fight to Vettel even without the intervention of Alonso's spectacular start in the ultimately slower Ferrari." And Hamilton's humility: " It is good to come from this race on a positive footing going into Monaco,  where a driver can make even more of a difference. "
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    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    easy_rider911:

    Interesting - the BBC's F1 coverage has been so good .... and now they win a BAFTA award :)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13496117.stm

    Great chemistry between Jake Humphrey, David Coulthard & Eddie Jordan ... great race commentary between Martin Brundle and David Coulthard (with the weak link, Jonathan Legard, removed) ... the post-race chatter on F1 Forum ... Twitter BBC F1 feeds ... a great BBC F1 website (with cool blue on black colours) ... Red Button/BBC Online coverage: F1 driver tracker ... superb catch up service on iPlayer (where one can watch all practice, qualification, race and F1 Forum broadcasts for 7 days) ... a 1 hour highlights show on BBC3 (which makes it easy to catch up with a race weekend if one has been away from home on holiday) ...

    The BBC has really raised the bar from what ITV used to provide ... Bravo and thanks very much!

    Absolutely agree, BBC's effort and coverage are unprecedented, I'm very thankful! Smiley


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Screw Alonso or Hamilton, they are yesterday

    GOOOOOOOOO VETTEL, what a brilliant race, he did superb and fought all the way to the end

    It was a pretty good race. McLaren did really well and seem the be the only ones who can fight RBR this season. It was also nice to see Schumi in front of Nico and Heidfeld did an amazing job going through the field in a Renault. I'm wishing him a podium spot next time.

    The best part of the race was when Vettel passed both McLaren and Ferrari like they were F2 race cars within just a couple of turns. Stunning performance from RBR yet again. I am really disappointed in Webber though... What are you doing? He just doesn't show 100%. He didn't engage enough and let Alonso pass him only be fall back even further and lose time screwing around. In the end he calls it a pure chess game referring to tire strategy, but i'm sorry this is RACING! You started from pole with the best car.... If I were RBR management i'd put him on probation after this poor performance.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    easy_rider911:

    .... whether Hamilton or Alonso is more arrogant than the other ...

    It may affect your choice as to which of them you prefer on a personal level but, at the moment, it's irrelevant to what's happening on track.

    At the moment Vettel is still beating them both - the margin of victory is diminishing - but the result is still the same.

     


    I like Button, Webber, Kobayashi & Kovalainen on a personal level - genuinely nice guys who would be great fun to spend time with.

    The ones I actually dislike (for various reasons) on a personal level are: Alonso, Vettel, Schumi, Barrichello, Hamilton.

    But those are just my subjective preferences ...


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    easy_rider911:

    The ones I actually dislike (for various reasons) on a personal level are: Alonso, Vettel, Schumi, Barrichello, Hamilton.

    But those are just my subjective preferences ...

    But F1 is sport not a dating serviceSmiley.

    What count are talent,skill and results.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    reginos, no one is talking about dating here - as a F1 fan, I am allowed to form an opinion on whose personality and character I like or dislike ... I would have thought my meaning was clear - let's keep the comments serious please.

    'Talent, skill and results' determine how much respect I may have for the achievements of a particular driver - not whether I like or dislike that driver as a person.


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    easy_rider911:


    The ones I actually dislike (for various reasons) on a personal level are: Alonso, Vettel, Schumi, Barrichello, Hamilton.

     I once bumped into Alonso in the queue for a skilift in Gstaad. There were not many people on the slopes and I congratulated him with his F1 championship. He came across as very friendly and almost shy. I think people can come across very differently when there are cameras pointing at them.


    --

    2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso delivery Oct 2011


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    I had a similar reaction from Roger Federer when I bumped into him (and his then girlfriend Mirka - who is now his wife) in Prague on the Charles Bridge. I congratulated him on his recent win at the US Open and wished him a pleasant stay in Prague. He wished me the same. He was polite and friendly but a little guarded - which is only natural when a complete stranger just starts talking with you.

    My wife and I also bumped into Mirka once more in the Nespresso coffee shop in Pariska. We didn't say anything and just kept a respectful distance. We just didn't get a nice vibe from her.

    --

    RT Moderator - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    easy_rider911:

    reginos, no one is talking about dating here - as a F1 fan, I am allowed to form an opinion on whose personality and character I like or dislike ... I would have thought my meaning was clear - let's keep the comments serious please.

    'Talent, skill and results' determine how much respect I may have for the achievements of a particular driver - not whether I like or dislike that driver as a person.

    It is a sport and we can talk about their performance and results. We are not to evaluate their characters, simply because we don't know these people personally. The image we have is from the media and it is often distorted.

    That was the point I made in a light-hearted way. May be you didn't appreciate my sense of humor Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    No offence taken - but why are we "not to evaluate their characters"? That's a rather arbitrary prohibition IMO.

    Sure, I don't know the overwhelming majority of people in this world personally but I can still form my opinion of them, their ideas and/or their behaviour based on my interpretation of whatever source I find reliable. The media can sometimes distort things but none of us (on RT) was born yesterday - we can think, analyse and see beyond the veneer, surely.

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    RT Moderator - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    F1 is a  multinational sport. Inevitably, in each country local drivers get more exposure (sometimes daily exposure if they go for the title), partly due to language, which is in the majority of cases very  favourable and sympathetic.

    Some examples I readily remember: Mansell was a "British Lion" in the UK but a "boring person and fast but unintelligent driver with an ugly wife" (Piquet's words not mine). Schumacher was a German hero the new "Red Baron" in Germany but a "cheating German" according to the UK tabloids. Raikkonen was a drunkard according to Jeremy Clarkson but respected in other countries.  Coulthard and Hill were the  victims of Schumacher' s dirty tricks in the UK but mediocre lucky losers, elsewhere. From what I read Alonso is classified in the spoiled, bad boy category already. If I could read the Press in other languages analogous things must be written about various drivers, in reverse.

    The examples above highlight my point that we must concentrate on the race results and not become the suckers of journalists either way.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Carlos from Spain:

    Same hard tires go into all cars? Have you heard about the relation about tire temp and grip? And how each car achieved a different temp, and each driver too depending on his driving style? FYI Hamilton's driving style wears tires quicker but heats them up more and they achieve higher temp than teamate's Button during the weekends. That is good in GP's were they struggke with temp like yestetfay but a handicap in GP's that tires suffer from excesive wear. 

     

    Carlos, that's a SETUP problem. :) Loose car vs tight car, tire pressure, car balance, downforce in the front vs the rear, etc.

     


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    If only it were that easy unless you know something the team engineers don't ;) Often times the setup is a trade off balancing many aspects, you cant just turn the nob for more tire temp, but in this case it seems to be an inherent charasteristic of the car's overall design, as you mentioned yourself the Ferrari tends to be easier on the tires and its wear, but the downside id they struggle a lot more with tire temperature. In fact this is one of the reasons why they struggle so much at qualificstipn and one lao performance, and they have a better pace during the race.Then there is the driver factor, Alonso seems to be able to heat up the tires better than Masda and Massa has been complaining since last season of lack of grip in thr ferrari because they do not heat up enoug. One driver who's driving style achieves the highest tire temp is Hamilton, the downside is.that he is plagued many times with tire wear issues, flats, ect.
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    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    In a way Massa drives like Hamilton, Senna and Shummy, they manhandle the car around the track, not surprising as Shummy is his mentor. While Alonso is like Vettel, Prost, who glides around the track letting the car leads them. Button is somewhere in between.

    For obvious reasons the Ferrari suits Alonso's style more than Massa.


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Not too sure I agree with you there, Whoopsy. I think its a confidence thing for Massa and he feels and believes Alonso is really better. Happens at all levels of sport, pro, amateur and club..


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Interesting analysis from James Allen on Ferrari's woes at Barcelona

    http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/05/ferrari-not-enjoying-the-hard-life/


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    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Whoopsy:

    In a way Massa drives like Hamilton, Senna and Shummy, they manhandle the car around the track, not surprising as Shummy is his mentor. While Alonso is like Vettel, Prost, who glides around the track letting the car leads them. Button is somewhere in between.

    For obvious reasons the Ferrari suits Alonso's style more than Massa.


    Whoopsy,

    I cannot agree on that comparison. Schumacher was well-known for his driving style, positioning the car via throttle input and a loose rear axle. His driving style and suspension setup was awkward for competitors such as Berger who tried the championship-winning car with Schumacher´s original setup first.

    Alsonso does a similiar thing, constantly adjusting the car at the verge of oversteer. I am not sure if he does so via throttle input only but achieves a similiar effect as Schumacher. I am convinced that a driver needs to "feel" the car properly to drive that way, therefore Alonso might have needed some time to adjust to a new car as it happened at Renault against Trulli and at McLaren against Hamilton initially. Alonso gave an interview during his McLaren season and commented that the technical developments should improve his performance in the second half of the season [which eventually happend to be correct]. I do remember that you found Alonso´s mediocre performance as described above to be proof of his inferiority against his teammates and dependability on the correct settings and surroundings within the team. I happen to believe that he needs a setup that encourages his driving style to make him exceptionally quick but even with a mediocre setup he is considerably fast. The comments of his former teammates and rivals about his performance and support within the team paint a different picture than some sources may suggest.

    Hamilton drives the car over the edge and tries to handle any reaction the car gives back. Unfortunately as a consequence he is not able to cover all reactions, such as the training incident in Japan last year or the crash in qualifying in Monaco two years ago. Wait, there is also the crash in the last lap of Monza two years ago. How many times have you seen Alonso do such things? If Hamilton succeeds, he is a hero. If he fails, he does so in a spectacular way.

    I would not place Button within the above driving styles as his gentle way of handling the car is one of the most extreme on the grid. One does remember his difficulties to heat up the tires in qualifying in recent years but do believe that it can help him this year with the rapidly degrading Pirelli tires. Of course, one has to ask whether such a driving style can be successfull in the long run as it is directly opposing Hamilton´s. Seeing these two drive the same car and to finish very close to each other so far makes it very interesting in my opinion.

    In general I dislike generalisations as purported in the yellow press as it does not do justice to the performance and skills of these drivers. All of the above mentioned top-rated drivers make the sport so interesting once you look behind the obvious that I would not want to miss any of them. Just like Easy, I can affiliate with one´s character more than with the other´s but that should not be subject of discussion if we debate about their skills.

    Smiley


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Great post Ferdie


    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    +1! Enjoyed that!


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Ferdie:

    Whoopsy,

    I cannot agree on that comparison. Schumacher was well-known for his driving style, positioning the car via throttle input and a loose rear axle. His driving style and suspension setup was awkward for competitors such as Berger who tried the championship-winning car with Schumacher´s original setup first.

    Alsonso does a similiar thing, constantly adjusting the car at the verge of oversteer. I am not sure if he does so via throttle input only but achieves a similiar effect as Schumacher. I am convinced that a driver needs to "feel" the car properly to drive that way, therefore Alonso might have needed some time to adjust to a new car as it happened at Renault against Trulli and at McLaren against Hamilton initially. Alonso gave an interview during his McLaren season and commented that the technical developments should improve his performance in the second half of the season [which eventually happend to be correct]. I do remember that you found Alonso´s mediocre performance as described above to be proof of his inferiority against his teammates and dependability on the correct settings and surroundings within the team. I happen to believe that he needs a setup that encourages his driving style to make him exceptionally quick but even with a mediocre setup he is considerably fast. The comments of his former teammates and rivals about his performance and support within the team paint a different picture than some sources may suggest.

    Hamilton drives the car over the edge and tries to handle any reaction the car gives back. Unfortunately as a consequence he is not able to cover all reactions, such as the training incident in Japan last year or the crash in qualifying in Monaco two years ago. Wait, there is also the crash in the last lap of Monza two years ago. How many times have you seen Alonso do such things? If Hamilton succeeds, he is a hero. If he fails, he does so in a spectacular way.

    I would not place Button within the above driving styles as his gentle way of handling the car is one of the most extreme on the grid. One does remember his difficulties to heat up the tires in qualifying in recent years but do believe that it can help him this year with the rapidly degrading Pirelli tires. Of course, one has to ask whether such a driving style can be successfull in the long run as it is directly opposing Hamilton´s. Seeing these two drive the same car and to finish very close to each other so far makes it very interesting in my opinion.

    In general I dislike generalisations as purported in the yellow press as it does not do justice to the performance and skills of these drivers. All of the above mentioned top-rated drivers make the sport so interesting once you look behind the obvious that I would not want to miss any of them. Just like Easy, I can affiliate with one´s character more than with the other´s but that should not be subject of discussion if we debate about their skills.

    Smiley

     

    Brilliant post Ferdie Smiley


    --


    Re: 2011 Spanish F1 Grand Prix in Barcelona

    Ferdie:
    Whoopsy:

    In a way Massa drives like Hamilton, Senna and Shummy, they manhandle the car around the track, not surprising as Shummy is his mentor. While Alonso is like Vettel, Prost, who glides around the track letting the car leads them. Button is somewhere in between.

    For obvious reasons the Ferrari suits Alonso's style more than Massa.


    Whoopsy,

    I cannot agree on that comparison. Schumacher was well-known for his driving style, positioning the car via throttle input and a loose rear axle. His driving style and suspension setup was awkward for competitors such as Berger who tried the championship-winning car with Schumacher´s original setup first.

    Alsonso does a similiar thing, constantly adjusting the car at the verge of oversteer. I am not sure if he does so via throttle input only but achieves a similiar effect as Schumacher. I am convinced that a driver needs to "feel" the car properly to drive that way, therefore Alonso might have needed some time to adjust to a new car as it happened at Renault against Trulli and at McLaren against Hamilton initially. Alonso gave an interview during his McLaren season and commented that the technical developments should improve his performance in the second half of the season [which eventually happend to be correct]. I do remember that you found Alonso´s mediocre performance as described above to be proof of his inferiority against his teammates and dependability on the correct settings and surroundings within the team. I happen to believe that he needs a setup that encourages his driving style to make him exceptionally quick but even with a mediocre setup he is considerably fast. The comments of his former teammates and rivals about his performance and support within the team paint a different picture than some sources may suggest.

    Hamilton drives the car over the edge and tries to handle any reaction the car gives back. Unfortunately as a consequence he is not able to cover all reactions, such as the training incident in Japan last year or the crash in qualifying in Monaco two years ago. Wait, there is also the crash in the last lap of Monza two years ago. How many times have you seen Alonso do such things? If Hamilton succeeds, he is a hero. If he fails, he does so in a spectacular way.

    I would not place Button within the above driving styles as his gentle way of handling the car is one of the most extreme on the grid. One does remember his difficulties to heat up the tires in qualifying in recent years but do believe that it can help him this year with the rapidly degrading Pirelli tires. Of course, one has to ask whether such a driving style can be successfull in the long run as it is directly opposing Hamilton´s. Seeing these two drive the same car and to finish very close to each other so far makes it very interesting in my opinion.

    In general I dislike generalisations as purported in the yellow press as it does not do justice to the performance and skills of these drivers. All of the above mentioned top-rated drivers make the sport so interesting once you look behind the obvious that I would not want to miss any of them. Just like Easy, I can affiliate with one´s character more than with the other´s but that should not be subject of discussion if we debate about their skills.

    Smiley

     Good analysis and conclusion. Smiley


    --

    fritz


     
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