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    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    Impossible.  When similar comments were posted here about people over driving the car, even on the street, and having braking issues, we were told it was impossible.  Impossible. 

    So one person is an idiot. How much braking power do you suggest?  The car holds the current 0-100-0 record for all production cars.  Since you want to point to me personally I will point out that I use my brakes to slow down or stop maybe 5% or the time.  That means the brakes get about 5% the use they would if there was no battery regen. The regen braking and stopping is world class smooth.  I doubt the pads on my Teslas Brembo brakes will ever wear down even 20% over the life of the car. 
    So to answer your quest - it is impossible to put enough brakes on a street car of any type if one drives like an idiot. This guys identified himself as one with 100% clarity. Why do you choose to play along and join him?  I mean go ahead. 


    Re: Tesla

    There is no way to spin this leawood, its the 1000hp version and in two laps they will suffer catastrophic failure... 2 laps? Completely unacceptable no matter which way you look at it, no one car does this, from an econobox to a SUV, the brakes is an essential safety system and must de designed in proportion to the car's weight and HP to withstand reasonable repeated use with a reasonable safety margin.

    And driving a car on track is not driving like a idiot or that would make evrybody here who takes their cars to the track ocasionally and idiot. What if you are driving spiritedly on a highway and you make several high speed decelerations? Or enjoying a winding downhill mountain road? You would be playing russian roulette on this car.

    I once said that because of the price difference I would take this car over a Taycan, I take that back, wouldn't touch this car with a 10 foot pole, wonder what else they cheaped out on... do they even test the cars?


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    Impossible.  When similar comments were posted here about people over driving the car, even on the street, and having braking issues, we were told it was impossible.  Impossible. 

    So one person is an idiot. How much braking power do you suggest?  The car holds the current 0-100-0 record for all production cars.  Since you want to point to me personally I will point out that I use my brakes to slow down or stop maybe 5% or the time.  That means the brakes get about 5% the use they would if there was no battery regen. The regen braking and stopping is world class smooth.  I doubt the pads on my Teslas Brembo brakes will ever wear down even 20% over the life of the car. 
    So to answer your quest - it is impossible to put enough brakes on a street car of any type if one drives like an idiot. This guys identified himself as one with 100% clarity. Why do you choose to play along and join him?  I mean go ahead. 

    Spend some time educating yourself on braking systems of road cars where the braking force are multiples of the maximum horsepower of the engine.  Porsche, for example, typically generate around four times the horsepower in braking than its engines produce.  This is why virtually every car will brake quicker from 60 to 0 than accelerate from 0 to 60.  You’re smart so you can guess the exemption.  A plaintiff’s attorney would have a field day with this braking issue when it is tried in the courts. 


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    Impossible.  When similar comments were posted here about people over driving the car, even on the street, and having braking issues, we were told it was impossible.  Impossible. 

    So one person is an idiot. How much braking power do you suggest?  The car holds the current 0-100-0 record for all production cars.  Since you want to point to me personally I will point out that I use my brakes to slow down or stop maybe 5% or the time.  That means the brakes get about 5% the use they would if there was no battery regen. The regen braking and stopping is world class smooth.  I doubt the pads on my Teslas Brembo brakes will ever wear down even 20% over the life of the car. 
    So to answer your quest - it is impossible to put enough brakes on a street car of any type if one drives like an idiot. This guys identified himself as one with 100% clarity. Why do you choose to play along and join him?  I mean go ahead. 

    Spend some time educating yourself on braking systems of road cars where the braking force are multiples of the maximum horsepower of the engine.  Porsche, for example, typically generate around four times the horsepower in braking than its engines produce.  This is why virtually every car will brake quicker from 60 to 0 than accelerate from 0 to 60.  You’re smart so you can guess the exemption.  A plaintiff’s attorney would have a field day with this braking issue when it is tried in the courts. 

    It is not a track car!   Two laps of what for crying out loud?  You make it sound like it is not safe to drive normally on the street. What you describe would impact 99% of all street cars. Why not he smart yourself?  It is not a race car.  It stops just fine if you don’t do it again and again.  Lawyer field day my a**.  Why have they not had a field day with all the street cars that can’t do your two laps on a race course??


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:

    There is no way to spin this leawood, its the 1000hp version and in two laps they will suffer catastrophic failure... 2 laps? Completely unacceptable no matter which way you look at it, no one car does this, from an econobox to a SUV, the brakes is an essential safety system and must de designed in proportion to the car's weight and HP to withstand reasonable repeated use with a reasonable safety margin.

    And driving a car on track is not driving like a idiot or that would make evrybody here who takes their cars to the track ocasionally and idiot. What if you are driving spiritedly on a highway and you make several high speed decelerations? Or enjoying a winding downhill mountain road? You would be playing russian roulette on this car.

    I once said that because of the price difference I would take this car over a Taycan, I take that back, wouldn't touch this car with a 10 foot pole, wonder what else they cheaped out on... do they even test the cars?

    You do realize that rolling down a steep hill impacts all cars even if you have 1000 horsepower.  Btw you always have the choice during those two laps or anytime to not use the whole 1000 horsepower. You make it sound again like the human is just along for the ride ( like you wish readers of your fine logic are ).  You and every driver can use common sense at any time.  Why compare a sedan to cars we track and even so all of those cars eventually overheat their brakes.  How many times do you want to stop a heavy street sedan from top speed exactly?  You are always welcome to the Taycan but if you think you can not overheat those brakes I would be surprised. You know you can. 


    Re: Tesla

    One interesting point - my model 3 , after 2 years and 30k miles is worth $62k according to KBB. I paid $55. 
    no repairs or service costs. Same tires. Tons of additional features added in 24 months via OTA updates. Electric costs less than $500. Insurance for 2 years $600.  $300 total sales tax, including properly tax for the next 2 years.  Plus $1500 tax rebate.  So I’m about $7100 up. 
    Sadly I could have spend the $55k on Tesla stock 24 months ago and be up a million or so. Then again we all could have … should have. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    Carlos from Spain:

    There is no way to spin this leawood, its the 1000hp version and in two laps they will suffer catastrophic failure... 2 laps? Completely unacceptable no matter which way you look at it, no one car does this, from an econobox to a SUV, the brakes is an essential safety system and must de designed in proportion to the car's weight and HP to withstand reasonable repeated use with a reasonable safety margin.

    And driving a car on track is not driving like a idiot or that would make evrybody here who takes their cars to the track ocasionally and idiot. What if you are driving spiritedly on a highway and you make several high speed decelerations? Or enjoying a winding downhill mountain road? You would be playing russian roulette on this car.

    I once said that because of the price difference I would take this car over a Taycan, I take that back, wouldn't touch this car with a 10 foot pole, wonder what else they cheaped out on... do they even test the cars?

    You do realize that rolling down a steep hill impacts all cars even if you have 1000 horsepower.  Btw you always have the choice during those two laps or anytime to not use the whole 1000 horsepower. You make it sound again like the human is just along for the ride ( like you wish readers of your fine logic are ).  You and every driver can use common sense at any time.  Why compare a sedan to cars we track and even so all of those cars eventually overheat their brakes.  How many times do you want to stop a heavy street sedan from top speed exactly?  You are always welcome to the Taycan but if you think you can not overheat those brakes I would be surprised. You know you can. 

    You are being completely unreasonable Leawood, just take off the goggles for a quick sec and think objectively about this 

    2 laps around most tracks is less than one lap around Nurburgring, this car won't finish one single Nring lap without the risk of a posible lethal car crash, you understand the severity of this? this is the sportiest version they have.

    Have you seen any car in this situation in any of the hundreds of production models tested in the Ring? from 10k cars too 500k cars?

    One thing is to look over the poor build quality, I'll fitting trim and panels, suboptimal handling, lack of personalization and options, cheap interior, reliability, the ridiculous joke steering wheel, etc but this? No.

    Wanna bet Tesla will have to upgrade the brakes on the car at some point? hopefully before they start shipping to European customers. It's crazy to think that to save 1000 buck per car they are selling their sportiest version like this. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    Impossible.  When similar comments were posted here about people over driving the car, even on the street, and having braking issues, we were told it was impossible.  Impossible. 

    So one person is an idiot. How much braking power do you suggest?  The car holds the current 0-100-0 record for all production cars.  Since you want to point to me personally I will point out that I use my brakes to slow down or stop maybe 5% or the time.  That means the brakes get about 5% the use they would if there was no battery regen. The regen braking and stopping is world class smooth.  I doubt the pads on my Teslas Brembo brakes will ever wear down even 20% over the life of the car. 
    So to answer your quest - it is impossible to put enough brakes on a street car of any type if one drives like an idiot. This guys identified himself as one with 100% clarity. Why do you choose to play along and join him?  I mean go ahead. 

    Spend some time educating yourself on braking systems of road cars where the braking force are multiples of the maximum horsepower of the engine.  Porsche, for example, typically generate around four times the horsepower in braking than its engines produce.  This is why virtually every car will brake quicker from 60 to 0 than accelerate from 0 to 60.  You’re smart so you can guess the exemption.  A plaintiff’s attorney would have a field day with this braking issue when it is tried in the courts. 

    It is not a track car!   Two laps of what for crying out loud?  You make it sound like it is not safe to drive normally on the street. What you describe would impact 99% of all street cars. Why not he smart yourself?  It is not a race car.  It stops just fine if you don’t do it again and again.  Lawyer field day my a**.  Why have they not had a field day with all the street cars that can’t do your two laps on a race course??

    The above comments pertain to ROAD CARS not track cars.  At this point you have become incredibly obstinate and refuse to consider relevant facts.  Step away for a bit and consider what you are writing.  


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911: It stops just fine if you don’t do it again and again.

    Are you reading youself? I can see the warning sticker on the Plaid's sun visor... "Warning! Brakes on this car are single use only"...


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:
    Leawood911: It stops just fine if you don’t do it again and again.

    Are you reading youself? I can see the warning sticker on the Plaid's sun visor... "Warning! Brakes on this car are single use only"...

    Lol. You guys are too much. 


    Re: Tesla

    indecision


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    Impossible.  When similar comments were posted here about people over driving the car, even on the street, and having braking issues, we were told it was impossible.  Impossible. 

    So one person is an idiot. How much braking power do you suggest?  The car holds the current 0-100-0 record for all production cars.  Since you want to point to me personally I will point out that I use my brakes to slow down or stop maybe 5% or the time.  That means the brakes get about 5% the use they would if there was no battery regen. The regen braking and stopping is world class smooth.  I doubt the pads on my Teslas Brembo brakes will ever wear down even 20% over the life of the car. 
    So to answer your quest - it is impossible to put enough brakes on a street car of any type if one drives like an idiot. This guys identified himself as one with 100% clarity. Why do you choose to play along and join him?  I mean go ahead. 

    Spend some time educating yourself on braking systems of road cars where the braking force are multiples of the maximum horsepower of the engine.  Porsche, for example, typically generate around four times the horsepower in braking than its engines produce.  This is why virtually every car will brake quicker from 60 to 0 than accelerate from 0 to 60.  You’re smart so you can guess the exemption.  A plaintiff’s attorney would have a field day with this braking issue when it is tried in the courts. 

    It is not a track car!   Two laps of what for crying out loud?  You make it sound like it is not safe to drive normally on the street. What you describe would impact 99% of all street cars. Why not he smart yourself?  It is not a race car.  It stops just fine if you don’t do it again and again.  Lawyer field day my a**.  Why have they not had a field day with all the street cars that can’t do your two laps on a race course??

     

    Hmm, so why Elon bothered to bring a fleet of car to the Ring for testing and tried and succeeded in setting a 'record' time? He wanted to tell the world that his 1000hp Plaid is capable of track duties, that he finally made a car that can handle decently. DIdn't Elon also say there will be a OTA update at a later date for 'track usage'? 

    Weird isn't it if what you said is true. 

    You keep stating 'your own' case as an example. But your own case is just one data point out of hundreds of thousands if not millions. In the grand scheme of things, it's a throw away data point. 

    We know you are passionate about Tesla, and because of your good individual experience, you can't understand, can't stand, or refuse to believe anything that's negative about Tesla. Not even when facts are presented. 

    There are MANY Tesla fanboys that have ordered, bought, tested the Plaid already. Every single one of them all agreed that the Plaid is under braked. They can't be all wrong can they? Especially when they are diehard Tesla fans to start with.

    Manufacturers can't control where their customers take their cars after deliveries, not even fine prints on the warranty will deter people. What they can control is to put enough safety features on the car itself to mitigate dangerous situations. And the single biggest safety feature on any car is the braking system. 

    The Plaid's brakes are adequate when they are cold. Which, during testings, it will be done with cold brakes and gives good numbers. But for some reason they did not factor in what happened if the brakes are warm. This is a serious oversight. They didn't engineer enough cooling directed to the rotors nor installing big enough brakes to cope with the situation. I can only imagine they did this trade off for efficiency reasons. Openings for brake cooling will mean more drag and bigger brakes means more weight, both of which is detrimental to their 'efficiency'. I can't possibly imagine Tesla's engineers are completely idiots and oblivious to the fact that brakes do get hotter after being used. 

    On the other hand, if Tesla's target customers are for those that take the meaning of tracks as a drag strips, then the brakes on the Plaid are completely satisfactory. They do one 10 second run, slow down enough to make a 180 turn then back to waiting another hour or two for another run, that's more than enough time for the brakes to go back down to room temperature and ready for another duty cycle.

    For most Americans, a track means either a drag strip or an oval, and either places doesn't place a great demand on braking performances. 


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    Re: Tesla

    https://youtu.be/rh12lK53hss
    enjoy 

    In my humble opinion- if you are driving any car on the street so fast that you are smoking your brakes then you are not being safe. Not by any definition. If you are smoking the plaid brakes you are certainly also braking enough laws to lose your license. Elon ran a quick lap at the ring and for all you know they drove within the brakes capabilities. 
    In the real world you hardly ever touch that thing called the brake pedal. Like hardly ever.  These are street cars and an EV on the street with regen puts a totally different load on conventional brakes. They are basically a backup and for the occasional hard stop.  Given the real use of the car the brakes are well within what is required.  Unless you are going crazy on public streets.  
    Do watch the video. You like this guy. He argued you can’t go 0-60 in less than 2 seconds. The brakes are not that bad especially since if you factor in regen from the motors which he really does not do. 
    If you are still worried about the stopping power I suggest using valet mode. 


    Re: Tesla

    OMG Mike, you killing me!!!

    Not that long ago you dismissed him as full of shit.

    And now you are quoting him. So what is it? Is he full of shit still or is he credible? Make up your mind.

    You can't just use him when it is convenient and dismiss him when he isn't.

    So what is it now? You want to believe in him now? Which also means he was right before also and you were wrong?

    Btw, when I drive the e-Tron, or the Taycan, I uses the brake pedal as often as I drive any other normal car. Brake pedal is there for a reason, it is to be used when one wanted to slow down or stop completely. Heck, I also uses the brake pedal whenever I drive the 918 or the Panamera hybrid, as the brake pedal is act one uses when they WANTED to stop. 

    It's really only the Tesla people that only uses the gas pedal when driving, every other single person on Earth that drives a car uses a gas pedal and a brake pedal. Don't believe me? Go ask your neighbour, or a random person at the mall what they use to stop a car when they are driving one. You might be surprised as their answers. 

    Oh one more thing. Elon didn't run a single lap at the Ring.

    He was never there. Actually as far as I can tell, Elon never ever set foot at the Ring, ever.

    He had his minions doing the laps.

    He had absolutely no idea what or how it feels like at the Ring. 

    As for the actual lap itself, the Plaid wasn't going full on (well it is, as far as its own abilities). It had employed lift and coast just to preserve the brakes to last that one single lap. I knew enough people that as it happens, the guy that drove the Plaid lap is someone I met and knew. The Tesla team did enough laps around to know the factory setup won't last a single lap on the Ring, hence the lift and coast. It was what the testers had suggested back to corporate. 

     

     


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    Re: Tesla

    You know, Mikey, you have no idea how enjoyable to me that right now you are quoting Jason from Engineered Explained when you wholeheartedly dismissed him as conjecture earlier.

    With that one stroke, you have painted yourself inside your own corner with no way of escaping. It doesn't how you explain, you will contradict yourself either way you do it. It's a lose lose situation.

    I am seriously enjoying it right now. 

    wink


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    Re: Tesla

    Buy low , gamma squeeze , sell high , exit...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    ...erm...  BF822CAF-50E5-4C47-9B23-F36F9B8F5A9C.gif

    “JPMorgan sues Tesla for $162 mln after Musk tweets soured warrant deal”

    (16 November 2021)

    NEW YORK, Nov 15 (Reuters) - JPMorgan Chase & Co has sued Tesla Inc for $162.2 million, accusing Elon Musk's electric car company of "flagrantly" breaching a contract the two corporate giants agreed in 2014 relating to warrants Tesla sold to the bank.

    Warrants give the holder the right to buy a company's stock at a set "strike" price and date. The suit, filed in a Manhattan federal court, centers on a dispute over how JPMorgan re-priced its Tesla warrants as a result of Musk's notorious 2018 tweet that he was considering taking the carmaker private.

    It is unusual for a major Wall Street bank to sue such a high-profile client, although JPMorgan has done relatively little business with the electric carmaker over the past seven years, according to Tesla's filings and Refinitiv data.

    "We have provided Tesla multiple opportunities to fulfill its contractual obligations, so it is unfortunate that they have forced this issue into litigation," a spokesperson for JPMorgan said in a statement.

    Tesla did not respond to requests for comment.

    According to the complaint, Tesla in 2014 sold warrants to JPMorgan that would pay off if their "strike" price was below Tesla's share price when the warrants expired in June and July 2021.

    JPMorgan said the warrants contained standard provisions that allowed it to adjust their price to protect both parties against the economic effects of "significant corporate transactions involving Tesla," such as an announcement the company was going private.

    Musk's Aug. 7, 2018 tweet that he might take Tesla private at $420 per share and had "funding secured," and his subsequent announcement 17 days later that he was abandoning the plan, created significant volatility in the share price, the bank said. On both occasions, JPMorgan adjusted the strike price "to maintain the same fair market value" as prior to the tweets.

    Tesla's share price rose approximately 10-fold by the time the warrants expired this year, and JPMorgan said this required Tesla under its contract to hand over shares of its stock or cash. The bank said Tesla's failure to do that amounted to a default.

    "Though JPMorgan's adjustments were appropriate and contractually required," the complaint said, "Tesla has flagrantly ignored its clear contractual obligation to pay JPMorgan in full," the bank said.

    Tesla in February 2019 complained that the bank's adjustments were "an opportunistic attempt to take advantage of changes in volatility in Tesla's stock," but did not challenge the underlying calculations, JPMorgan said.

    Musk's tweets resulted in the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission bringing civil charges and $20 million fines against both him and Tesla.

    Link: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/jpmorgan-sues-tesla-162-mln-related-warrants-2021-11-15/

    ...what was that about clawbacks of executive compensation if financial statements were inaccurate? Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    OMG Mike, you killing me!!!

    Not that long ago you dismissed him as full of shit.

    And now you are quoting him. So what is it? Is he full of shit still or is he credible? Make up your mind.

    You can't just use him when it is convenient and dismiss him when he isn't.

    So what is it now? You want to believe in him now? Which also means he was right before also and you were wrong?

    Btw, when I drive the e-Tron, or the Taycan, I uses the brake pedal as often as I drive any other normal car. Brake pedal is there for a reason, it is to be used when one wanted to slow down or stop completely. Heck, I also uses the brake pedal whenever I drive the 918 or the Panamera hybrid, as the brake pedal is act one uses when they WANTED to stop. 

    It's really only the Tesla people that only uses the gas pedal when driving, every other single person on Earth that drives a car uses a gas pedal and a brake pedal. Don't believe me? Go ask your neighbour, or a random person at the mall what they use to stop a car when they are driving one. You might be surprised as their answers. 

    Oh one more thing. Elon didn't run a single lap at the Ring.

    He was never there. Actually as far as I can tell, Elon never ever set foot at the Ring, ever.

    He had his minions doing the laps.

    He had absolutely no idea what or how it feels like at the Ring. 

    As for the actual lap itself, the Plaid wasn't going full on (well it is, as far as its own abilities). It had employed lift and coast just to preserve the brakes to last that one single lap. I knew enough people that as it happens, the guy that drove the Plaid lap is someone I met and knew. The Tesla team did enough laps around to know the factory setup won't last a single lap on the Ring, hence the lift and coast. It was what the testers had suggested back to corporate. 

     

     

    First of all his video about 2 seconds to 60 was splitting hairs.  I think you are the one now who suddenly does not like this source which you like in the past.   Not a single peep from you about the content of the video - just some lame fake outrage that I used your own tech source. Don’t make us laugh.  You exaggerate that I called him full of shit to try to make your point. Still you don’t say anything about the analysis of the brakes. Crickets. I guess this video does not suit you. Make up your mind?

    Obviously I was speaking of a Tesla driver not a Elon himself but since you need to be correct once in the discussion I will give you that one. You need a win.  However it is noteworthy that when a Tesla has a panel gap I’m pretty certain you think he is the one building the car - lol. 
    Your funniest is that you agree Tesla drivers don’t use their brakes.  You are actually proud of the fact that you know how Tesla drivers use EVs as intended yet you still go on and on about how others use their brakes to stop like it is the best way to stop.  It just strikes me as funny that you defeat yourself in each of your arguments. Plus are proud of your logic. 

    Could it be that all other drivers use the brakes to stop because if they did not their cars would crash?  OMG that is it.  I wonder if these people , like me and other Tesla drivers , would also use regen rather than brakes when in a Tesla??? Hmm.  To put it another way - when I’m in my turbo I also use the brakes.  The difference is obvious.  Now do you think that since Tesla drivers seldom use the brakes that this puts different stresses (less, are you still with me) on the brakes?

    Lastly - did I not mention myself that it is likely they set that amazing lap time while taking care of the brakes?  How many times did I mention that the brakes, like any road car, are fine as long as don’t abuse them or the 1000 awesome horses, which can’t really happen on the street. Bottom line is that the video from the guy you like ( does it matter that I liked him, you trusted him as a source) did not even get a response from you.  That sums it up.  Yet you pretend that me not agreeing with him once somehow makes your point?  If I had found a source you disagreed with in the past would that have convinced you ?   Logic is fleeting.  
     

    PS - using the brakes in an EV as much as a regular car?  Did you turn off all regen in your famous blended braking?  Unless you did you did that you know the brake pedal is also triggering regen not just brakes. So while you may be using that silly old fashioned energy wasting pedal it is not true you are using the brakes as much.  This point is as week as your ‘Elon did not drive the ring himself’ argument.  Enjoy. This was fun. 


    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    You know, Mikey, you have no idea how enjoyable to me that right now you are quoting Jason from Engineered Explained when you wholeheartedly dismissed him as conjecture earlier.

    With that one stroke, you have painted yourself inside your own corner with no way of escaping. It doesn't how you explain, you will contradict yourself either way you do it. It's a lose lose situation.

    I am seriously enjoying it right now. 

    wink


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    I simply offered someone you liked as a source.  Too funny. An additional post from you does make it amusing.  Take your pick then. Was his post on the 0-60 accurate or this one on brakes or both?  Maybe neither - I can’t tell by your non response. 
    What is funny was that first the car was just a one trick pony - going fast in a straight line. Fastest four door in the world yet this was an actual complaint. I call it the ‘pussy is too tight’ complaint.  Now it is that the car is too fast for the brakes. I call this the ‘tight pussy making my dick feel too big’ complaint.   As proof I submit the rave reviews from customers and stock holders. 


    Re: Tesla

    I have to agree with Nick (Whoopsy): If Elon Musk advertises the Plaid on the track, well...the brakes have to deliver.

    Brembo offers various pre-configured easy to adapt brake systems for car manufacturers, including ceramic brakes. Why not pay a couple of hundreds of bucks (production cost) more for an "adequate" brake system? They could even charge some extra money for it, calling it a "track package" and asking 5000 USD for it. Smiley

    At least Tesla would give buyers an option.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

     


    Re: Tesla

    RC:

    I have to agree with Nick (Whoopsy): If Elon Musk advertises the Plaid on the track, well...the brakes have to deliver.

    Brembo offers various pre-configured easy to adapt brake systems for car manufacturers, including ceramic brakes. Why not pay a couple of hundreds of bucks (production cost) more for an "adequate" brake system? They could even charge some extra money for it, calling it a "track package" and asking 5000 USD for it. Smiley

    At least Tesla would give buyers an option.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

     

    The braking system of the Plaid is inadequate for any vehicle capable of accelerating from 0 to 150 mph in approximately 10 seconds.  Part of the braking deficiencies are down to physics. As we are acquainted with a tire has a fixed traction coefficient, mu, neglecting downforce effects, for acceleration and braking.  Tesla has optimized its traction control to maximize acceleration through a fast acting electronic feedback loop.  In essence, Tesla's traction control takes full advantage of the traction available from the tire.  

    ABS systems attempt to maximize braking effectiveness by utilizing the same traction coefficient.  However, ABS systems rely on electronic and hydraulic systems with cycling speeds far less than that of Tesla's electronic traction control.  Therefore, braking distances at the extreme, will always lag behind acceleration distances.  Now add a braking system that is undersized for the speeds and the weight the Plaid is able to achieve, leading to significant issues on the track and on the road.  

    Let's be realistic few Plaid are purchasing that model to not to drive gingerly but instead as a power trip.  The rash of incidents involving Teslas proves this out.  


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    First of all his video about 2 seconds to 60 was splitting hairs.  I think you are the one now who suddenly does not like this source which you like in the past.   Not a single peep from you about the content of the video - just some lame fake outrage that I used your own tech source. Don’t make us laugh.  You exaggerate that I called him full of shit to try to make your point. Still you don’t say anything about the analysis of the brakes. Crickets. I guess this video does not suit you. Make up your mind?

    What is there to comment about the video? I watched it last week already. Jason tried to explain why the Plaid can do 0-60 faster than stop from 60-0. He made perfect sense explaining how the Plaid can accelerate that fast. He never analyzed the Plaid's brakes. The majority of the video wasn't talking about how bad the Plaid's braking numbers were but why it can accelerate fast. Plaid can only achieve 1.16g of deceleration on it's best attempt, on completely cold brakes. Any car better than a Corolla can do over 1.2g braking.  And we have already discussed any car can perform really well with cold brakes. it's what happens after the initial application that shine a spot light about Plaid's bad brakes. 

    Like Tesla's fuel economy numbers, it's a best case once in a blue moon scenario number that they publicize. Not unlike their acceleration numbers, that it needs 20 mins to prepare, and after doing it once, it can't be repeated again. The 104ft stopping distance? Can it do the same number the second time around? Or the 3rd? Those brakes didn't get proper cooling, nor are they sized big enough for repeated use. They are just good enough for one test. Which is all Tesla needed for publishing numbers. Just like their acceleration number, or their economy number for that matters. 

    He talked about tuning ABS settings for the C8 Corvette making it stop a bit longer than the C7, it make sense, but the C8 can do the same number over and over again without cooking it's brakes. It was engineered to rein in the performance of the car. Not to post a nice number to be published.

    Obviously I was speaking of a Tesla driver not a Elon himself but since you need to be correct once in the discussion I will give you that one. You need a win.  However it is noteworthy that when a Tesla has a panel gap I’m pretty certain you think he is the one building the car - lol. 
    Your funniest is that you agree Tesla drivers don’t use their brakes.  You are actually proud of the fact that you know how Tesla drivers use EVs as intended yet you still go on and on about how others use their brakes to stop like it is the best way to stop.  It just strikes me as funny that you defeat yourself in each of your arguments. Plus are proud of your logic. 

    You keep repeating and thinking I am the one in the wrong. Yet I am not the only one that say you are wrong. Could it be everyone else is also wrong? Or that you were the only one that's misinformed and everyone else's right all alone? Some food for thought.

     


    Could it be that all other drivers use the brakes to stop because if they did not their cars would crash?  OMG that is it.  I wonder if these people , like me and other Tesla drivers , would also use regen rather than brakes when in a Tesla??? Hmm.  To put it another way - when I’m in my turbo I also use the brakes.  The difference is obvious.  Now do you think that since Tesla drivers seldom use the brakes that this puts different stresses (less, are you still with me) on the brakes?

    Did you know regen is still braking? it's not like Teslas aren't crashing using regen. They still do. Heck, their 'safety feature' never even try to slow down whenever they crashed into something. Of course Tesla people can't put stress on the mechanical braking system, as they aren't up to par. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Lastly - did I not mention myself that it is likely they set that amazing lap time while taking care of the brakes?  How many times did I mention that the brakes, like any road car, are fine as long as don’t abuse them or the 1000 awesome horses, which can’t really happen on the street. Bottom line is that the video from the guy you like ( does it matter that I liked him, you trusted him as a source) did not even get a response from you.  That sums it up.  Yet you pretend that me not agreeing with him once somehow makes your point?  If I had found a source you disagreed with in the past would that have convinced you ?   Logic is fleeting.  
     

    And what is the point of the 1000hp again if normal people don't use them? Again. the video only explained why the Plaid get a better number on acceleration than it's braking. It doesn't explain Tesla's brakes. At best it just says Plaid's brakes are adequate. I always told you how the Plaid got it's time. It's not about taking care of the brakes, it's about not stressing them too much as they can't handle the stress. Which is on full display with videos and reports of them failing on track by numerous people, Tesla fans no less. 

    PS - using the brakes in an EV as much as a regular car?  Did you turn off all regen in your famous blended braking?  Unless you did you did that you know the brake pedal is also triggering regen not just brakes. So while you may be using that silly old fashioned energy wasting pedal it is not true you are using the brakes as much.  This point is as week as your ‘Elon did not drive the ring himself’ argument.  Enjoy. This was fun. 

    Brake pedal. There is no need to choose where to use regen or use physical brakes on every other brand of EVs or hybrids. The car decides for you. One only need to step on the brake pedal, and the car automatically regen and also apply the physical brakes. It's like magic! There is no need to decide whether one wants to use regen braking or use the physical brakes like on a Tesla. One just drive normally. Using the throttle to go, using the brake pedal to stop. Intuitive. Nature. You should try that some time, it's rewarding. And you'd be asking why doesn't Tesla do that. 


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla

    RC - just because tesla put up a much asked for Ring time does not mean it is advertised for the track. Tesla does not advertise at all.  Those are brembo brakes btw. Makes no sense to build it with track brakes for the street use it is intended for. Given the weight and power how much brakes are enough?  Even f1 cars have limits based on the exact need down to the millimeter of pad and rotor size.  No more than what is needed.  Given it is a street car it is fine. 
    But if you want to you can easily add any big brake package you like, I have mentioned this many times. There is money left on the table if you don’t pick the Porsche.  Question remains - Why do this at the factory for a street car?  Tesla even got rid of passenger lumbar support in the model3 because it saved money and people were not using it. Your premise that it needs track brakes because it is advertised for the track is just not correct.  
     

    As for the whole intuitive braking thing - once your pedal can make you slow down and stop so smoothly it is not intuitive at all to scrub of speed with the other pedal. Exactly the opposite. That is ICE thinking vs EV reality.  99% of Plaid drivers will not run out of brakes like guys suggest - on the street -.  Silly to suggest otherwise but you are welcome to believe it.  Maybe combine a whip with your throttle- perfectly intuitive if you just got off a horse. 

    And no, there has not been any type of rash of accidents at all.  The actual numbers tell a very different story. In fact you can’t point to a safer and more consistent 9 second 150 mph car. No wheel spin, no drama, perfectly straight within a tenth of a second regardless the driver or surface or even state of charge to a point.   No other car can pull this off as safely and consistently. You guys know that 100%. Insurance companies know this fact well too.  If any of what you guys assume was correct these cars would be un-insurable and not out of stock for months.  
    I love this thread.  Thanks guys!  Cheers


    Re: Tesla

    Do not underestimate the general public's ability to do something stupid.  If this car was so safe why did it allow itself to crash through a house after reaching 116 mph on a short road?  


    Re: Tesla

    CGX car nut:

    Do not underestimate the general public's ability to do something stupid.  If this car was so safe why did it allow itself to crash through a house after reaching 116 mph on a short road?  

    What exactly do you expect it to do?  
    Does your car put itself in park, turn off, lock up and enter sentry mode when you simply open the door and walk away or would it roll away in drive and run into something if you did not put it in park and turn it off?  Get my point?  The Tesla drove me from KC to Austin without intervention through a maze of highways in Dallas that would drive a local loco. Passing cars and making each turn signal. 
    you like to use isolated incidents which are clearly human error to make a point which actual safety stats totally contradict. 
    your logic is not exactly car specific.  You will not find me underestimating human stupidity.  Tesla is doing more about safety and this problem than anyone else. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    RC - just because tesla put up a much asked for Ring time does not mean it is advertised for the track. Tesla does not advertise at all.  Those are brembo brakes btw. Makes no sense to build it with track brakes for the street use it is intended for. 
    I love this thread.  Thanks guys!  Cheers

    Leawood, Leawood....

    Screenshot_20211118-213632_Chrome.jpg

    1331921569018Popcorn_Smiley_by_Probocaster.gif


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:

    Do not underestimate the general public's ability to do something stupid.  If this car was so safe why did it allow itself to crash through a house after reaching 116 mph on a short road?  

    What exactly do you expect it to do?  
    Does your car put itself in park, turn off, lock up and enter sentry mode when you simply open the door and walk away or would it roll away in drive and run into something if you did not put it in park and turn it off?  Get my point?  The Tesla drove me from KC to Austin without intervention through a maze of highways in Dallas that would drive a local loco. Passing cars and making each turn signal. 
    you like to use isolated incidents which are clearly human error to make a point which actual safety stats totally contradict. 
    your logic is not exactly car specific.  You will not find me underestimating human stupidity.  Tesla is doing more about safety and this problem than anyone else. 

    The Japanese market version of the Nissan GT-R, for example, has had since 2007 a GPS enabled speed limit. Such technology is readily adaptable to the self-proclaimed fastest and safest car in the world.  Geofencing is a fairly established technology and it is well within the current technology envelop to install as system that prevents a driver from driving a car with speeds far in excess of the stopping distances available as well as allow higher speeds on track.  


    Re: Tesla

    giphy-downsized-large.gif


    Re: Tesla

    It really didn't seem to work out that well before, but why not try it again:

    “I make my cars to go, not to stop.” — Ettore Bugatti, in response to a customer’s complaint about the antiquated cable-operated brakes on the Bugatti Type 35 sports car.

    This is reminiscent of drum brakes being fine for street use and disc brakes being the stuff for race tracks.

    Tesla is the drum brakes. Great car but keep it away from a race track. (I know they actually have at least some form of anemic disc brakes)

    Maybe Elon can add retro rockets for better braking performance!

    Tesla might want to focus on efficiency or performance before losing at both


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:
    Leawood911:

    RC - just because tesla put up a much asked for Ring time does not mean it is advertised for the track. Tesla does not advertise at all.  Those are brembo brakes btw. Makes no sense to build it with track brakes for the street use it is intended for. 
    I love this thread.  Thanks guys!  Cheers

    Leawood, Leawood....

    Screenshot_20211118-213632_Chrome.jpg

    1331921569018Popcorn_Smiley_by_Probocaster.gif

     

    Nah, Elon doesn't mean his cars are track ready. The track pack software is for the street, normal to and from grocery store trips. Who doesn't need 1000hp for the parking lot maneuvers?

    There will also be a future OTA update to fix the brake cooling issue. Not!


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla

    Tesla fanboi warning-Don’t watch.  Everyone else, looks like FSD is regressing with each new version of it.  https://jalopnik.com/ex-jalop-takes-teslas-fsd-beta-for-a-less-than-impressi-1848085374


     
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