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    The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    I was pretty curious to read what people would have to reply to my "997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?" thread. And I was very surprised. Some of you were having the same feelings like I have, others were pretty satisfied with what they've heard and seen so far regarding the 997 Turbo. Others were actually trying to talk me out of buying it. And there is this interesting group around CF which actually wants to believe that the whole Tiptronic vs. Manual stuff is a huge marketing error and that somebody screwed up the specs.

    Well, guys, from a psychological point of view, your replies have been worth gold. But don't get me wrong, I'm part of this too.

    Now let me get some things straight: I want to get the 997 Turbo and I will get it (if Porsche doesn't decide to cut off my car from my dealer's quota because of what I wrote... ) But I meant from all of my heart what I said.
    I may think different when I actually sit in this car and drive it. But I'm not that sure about it.

    As a Porsche driver, I have a hard time lately. In the past, Porsche drivers were considered to be very special individuals who love a stiff suspension, a fast tire and some fast rounds on the track in their lightweight, non-comfortable little racer. Today, Porsche drivers are viewed different by people, I can tell it by their looks, by their comments at the fuel station or at my dealer or even when I'm washing my car. People don't consider us Porsche drivers to be freaks like many years ago, they consider us to be rich and spoiled people who are just showing off their toy. Nothing more and nothing less.
    Do you think it is written on my forehead that I'm one of the people behind Rennteam? Do you think people can read from your nose that you're the hell of a track driver and you love driving your Porsche? Or do you think people believe you when you tell them that you're enjoying a lonesome ride into the sun along the street, just for fun?
    Nahhh, we're just a bunch of rich and spoiled wannabees and whenever these people see a crashed Porsche, it actually confirms their prejudice. So what do I care about these people? To be honest? I don't care at all. But: I care about other sportscar owners and here's where the trouble starts. In the past, sportscar owners were looking upon Porsche drivers the same way. We were the hardcore sportscar drivers in the past. Of course with the exception of those Morgan, Caterham, etc. drivers but thats another story. When the 993 Turbo showed up, this car shook up the sportscar world at that time. It was fast, it was mean and I can't remember any Ferrari, Lamborghini or any other brand driver who had no respect towards this car. It was the 911 Turbo, the monster.
    When the 996 Turbo showed up, people were pretty disappointed with the power figure and with the performance specs. Not much better than the 993 Turbo, only the highly improved chassis and the better aerodynamics made the 996 Turbo actually faster, especially on the track. And by that time, Ferrari just put the F360 on the market, a 400 HP car. No real competition from other car makers at that time, the Mercedes SL 55 AMG which took many customers away from Porsche (and I'm not sure if they even realize that) was still not available. So the 996 Turbo was somehow satisfying, it was a worthy successor to the 993 Turbo but not really the update everybody expected. One reason why I took my 996 Turbo to RS-Tuning over a year later, I wasn't really happy with the performance, especially since this car felt like it had a lot of unleashed potential.
    Even during the 996 Turbo times, the competitors like Ferrari but even BMW and Mercedes started to gain terrain. I remember seeing a video in which a stock S 65 AMG left behind a 996 Turbo like nothing. Of course on the straightline but thats not the point here.
    Owners of other sportscars started to make fun of us, they started to provoke us and some of them were even doing some pretty stupid things to make us race against them, even on public streets. Never had this experience before in my life.
    It was like suddenly, a whole generation had access to high power cars and was just waiting to "show" it to those "dumb" Porsche drivers. Just look at the many Corvette Z06 threads we had and how many Z06 owners/enthusiasts registered just to provoke us or to make fun of us. In reality, this happens pretty often. Even a friend asked me just a short while ago if I saw the specs of the new Mercedes S 65 AMG. Yes, I saw them and I also read the performance figures. I was shocked.

    To get back to my "story:
    When the first rumors of the 997 Turbo came in, I was very excited, like a little kid. The first time I got an official confirmation of the Turbo, it was back in 2004 during a very exclusive Weissach visit. It took some begging and some "approval" to get the 997 Turbo confirmed and they even mentioned how great this car is. Then, another time, I saw it live in front of me, stupid people forgot to put the black velvet over it and during those 30 seconds, I had a first glimpse. Yes, I liked what I saw and the black colour made the car look even more mean. I was getting hot or no, I was actually hot for this car already.

    A few months later, we heard the first specs from a friend. Apparently Porsche didn't want to accept the Mercedes/BWM power provocation anymore and 500 HP, minimum, was the rumored power figure. When I heard that, I was happy. What happened? Had Porsche finally come to their senses? No more need to go to RS-Tuning or any other tuner? I was so happy to get from my favorite car manufacturer exactly what I was asking for. Then, over a few months, the news were really exciting, one even indicating a better or at least at par acceleration time with the Carrera GT. I couldn't believe it, it sounded like Porsche heaven. Then some fantasy performance figures were coming up, under 3.8 seconds from 0-100 kph, around 7 seconds from 0-160 kph and way under 12 seconds for 0-200 kph performance. I liked more and more what I heard and went to my dealer to order a Turbo S because at the same time, rumors came up that Porsche might offer the Turbo S at the same time as the Turbo. So if the Turbo was supposed to be that fast, how fast would be the Turbo S? I started to hear power figures of 530-540 HP and my head started to turn around, I was in pure ecstasy.
    A few weeks later, a phone call came like a cold shower. A friend told me that he saw the specs on paper...480 HP. I couldn't believe it, I even called him a tease because I thought he just tries to make fun of me. Then I started to think about the 996 GT2 performance, a car with 483 HP and at around 100 kg less weight than the 996 Turbo. I started to feel like crap, I had hoped for my absolute dreamcar and I was getting just another Porsche marketing toy. Earlier rumors indicated that the 997 Turbo is going to be around 50 kg heavier than the previous 996 Turbo, so I counted one plus one and I was sure that with 480 HP, the 997 Turbo wouldn't be able to cope with 996 GT2 performance, not even being close to it. I was disappointed.

    So I asked myself: what the heck is Porsche doing? They put a 996 Turbo with 483 HP on the market four years ago (the GT2 is basically a 996 Turbo on steroids, there aren't much technical differences besides the missing AWD and some chassis parts) and the brandnew superduper VTG technology 997 Turbo has even 3 horses less? This can't be. And still: looking at Porsche's model policy for the past few years, I was realizing that it could be true. Even more: it was very likely to be true.

    So now, here I am. I'm a lucky bastard, waiting for one of the best sportscars in the world, due June 24th. And what am I doing? Bragging, complaining, whining? Yes, exactly. This is what I do. Because this was supposed to be my dreamcar, my perfect 911 Turbo, my "top" model. All Porsche has given me is "just" one of the best sportscars in the world but for me this is not good enough. What I expected and what I wanted was the Holy Grail, the TajMahal, my Dreamcastle, my Dreamcar. All I get is a product created by marketing strategy and future model planning. You BET I'm disappointed.

    Yes, I'll go for the new 997 Turbo but Porsche beware...the nice times are over. If this car is not up to even my lowest expectations, you better don't sell it to me. Because my expectations have never been so high and I will write here exactly what I think about this car after I drove it a few days.
    And I still can't get over the whole Tiptronic/Manual thing.
    What is the reason behind this strategy? To promote the upcoming PDK? Doesn't make sense to me.

    I promise, this will be my last "bla bla bla" regarding the 997 Turbo, I'll give it the same fair chance I'll give the Z06 when I have the chance to drive one. But spending around 150000 Euro for a car I have to live 4-5 years with and not being entirely happy with, is a pretty heavy thing to swallow for me. Honestly. I just hope that while driving the 997 Turbo, my opinion will change.

    I'll never understand the Porsche marketing strategy, never. Is it some sort of psychological thing, getting more customers by making them furious? Or creating some sort of emotions? Give me 520 HP, 50 kg less weight and there is no need for any kind of marketing game. Just give the people what they want, loyal customers they'll stay forever. Why is such a logical thing so difficult to understand?!

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Great post. I completely understand what you are saying and feeling. It is a sickness. I strongly suggest that you call your doctor, have him read your thread, and he will write you a perscription for a remedy to your problem. Then take your perscription down to your local Chevy dealer, and you will be feeling better in no time at all!!!

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    RC, I ve been reading everybody's messages (including yours of course) for 2 months now and I have to say I agree with what you say. I have been waiting for this car for 2 years now and have been really so excited to find our more about the new car I was going to buy. I have a 540hp 996tt and with all this crap with the tip vs manual, I've now finally made up my mind that I am NOT going to buy this car until the PDK S version is out.
    I have one question for you though since I am new to this list; is Porsche germany reading this???? I would love to know if you have any indication if somebody, ANYBODY relatively senior at Porsche is actually taking a look at what we all think about their new cars.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Great post. I completely understand what you are saying and feeling. It is a sickness. I strongly suggest that you call your doctor, have him read your thread, and he will write you a perscription for a remedy to your problem. Then take your perscription down to your local Chevy dealer, and you will be feeling better in no time at all!!!



    Whenever I want to feel like a pimp, I listen to your advice. Wrong country, dude. Here in Germany, a Corvette isn't the type of car I could drive, even if it would have 2000 horses. Sad but true. Bad reputation from the past, crappy Corvette mechanics over here, part delivery takes too long (weeks to months), high speed durability still not proven, GM had to change chassis specs to "Euro specs" after heavy testing on the Nordschleife, resale value ridiculous, not able to register car as company car, high insurance cost (due to high repair cost), not able to drive it in winter time (no winter tires approved yet, we have snow right now in Bavaria)...I could go on.

    But thanks for trying to help...

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Quote:
    GT said:
    I have one question for you though since I am new to this list; is Porsche germany reading this???? I would love to know if you have any indication if somebody, ANYBODY relatively senior at Porsche is actually taking a look at what we all think about their new cars.



    Well...I'm afraid they read this, they really do. But I'm not sure they're happy with what they read. You'll know as soon as I get my car...or not.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Well if they read this then they should start thinking of the new Ferrari 599 with 1620kg, 620 bhp and 100msec F1 box. Yes I know this a different price league BUT its predecessor (maranello) was not faster than a 996tt or tts while this one..
    Also you bet that ferrari is going to become stiff competition for the next few product/model cycles with their new cars.. Was never a huge fun of the italians (actually more like hardcore opponent) but it has to be said that they are taking steps in the right direction by dramatically reducing weight and increacing power. Unlike Porsche.
    I wonder what is going to happen if the PDK does come out in 18 months and is much better (that is almost certain). All tip owners will be PISSED OFF, since tip will be essentially obsolete while the manual owners will be.. equally PISSED since the manual will be the slowest of them all without any real advantage vs PDK and plenty of disadvantages. Not hard to imagine the dive that the tips and manuals will take in the used car market.. scary

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    PDK may improve the 0-200 kph time by half a second or so, I don't see any more possible improvement regarding the 0-100 kph performance compared to Tiptronic.
    But PDK will offer other advantages, especially for track racing. Like extremely fast shifting cycles, etc. PDK is rumored to shift around 20-30% faster than the current F1 shifting system on the F430, so you get the point.

    In my opinion, manual buyers will be the biggest losers sooner or later. Because the auto tranny will always sell, especially with those spectacular performance numbers but a manual if PDK is available? Doesn't make sense.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    The tiptronic being faster than the manual tranny has really stirred up thing and I can't imagine what you who have ordered the car are feeling. I wouldn't even know what to do if I was in your shoes.

    If one buys a hardcore sports car like a 911 Turbo manual is the way to go since it's more engaging and faster. Atleast that's how things have been in the past. Now Porsche has changed the game and the advantage of buying a 997TT with tiptronic is bigger than the advantage one gets when equiping their car with a manual tranny.

    On top of that I think that the car has to many technical options. Manual, tiptronic or PDK(later). With or without sports chrono and PCCB? I think that a car of this magnitude should allready be equiped with what's best for it. So that people should have to go through the trouble of deciding what to equip their car with.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    I have held my fire because many of you are beginning to see the problem.

    Porsche's have terrific performance and reliablity but so do other cars. As we getting older and value our money, if we decide spend a great deal of money on anything we want to believe it is distinctive and unique.Particularly automobiles.

    The other day as I was getting gas a touist approached me (he was German) and said to me this car you usually see only in movies. I responded you live in the land of Porsche and he said "sadly too many of them".

    When I drive my 430 Spider not only is it a great driving experience but it is an event. The whole sensual experience is something Porsches do not have. Recently, on Ferraichat a former owner of a 996TT which he loved paid a premium to get a 430 coupe.

    Here is what he had to say

    paid 40K over on 12/6/06 to get my new never titled F430 from a new Fcar dealer with 67 miles on it.

    It now has ~2500 miles on it and been offered $255K from someone I know in Dallas. I will not sell it. Money can only do so much for you. Every time I drive and hear the sound of the best engine ever hand made in Marenello the purchase price does not even come to mind. If you want one of these cars, you are simply going to have to pay the cost of admission. Why do people pay $3000 to see the Super Bowl for about 4 hours of entertainment? To boot, they are not even involved in the event other than occupy a seat along with 60K-80K screaming fans.

    The F430 will give you years of those 4 hour moments and you are in the driver's seat. I enjoy just cleaning every little square inch of the inside and outside of the car. Those 4-6 hours are pure pleasure. Why...because I drive probably one of the finest and most sought after cars in the world today. Is that worth 40K over MSRP? I look at it this way. I got lucky that there was a new car to buy. However, as always that is

    In other words, he now has excitement and passion in his purchase and treats as such. The TT is a good reliable daily car and that probably says it all. If I am going to spend close to 150,000 I want a hell of a lot more than 3.7 0-60 or whatever else you wish to measure.

    When everything is said and done, Porsche's are vanilla.

    BTW FWIW I agree the GT3 is one hell of a value car (although I have a problem with the ricer tail).

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Funny how all ferrari owners seem to describe their car experience just like the way that guy does; amazing sound, people looking at me, best engine in the mkt, legendary car etc etc. I have quite a few friends that talk just like that. Interesting that they rarely actually talk about how it drives, accelerates, breaks, corners etc.
    Funny that..

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    RC, I hope the actual street performance of the 997TT matches you automobile dreams.

    If not, the dissapointment will be difficult to overcome.

    I understand what you are saying about many other sports car drivers thinking Porsche has lost its heretofor unquestioned performance leadership.

    Sometimes aspirations and desires have to change targets. If the car doesnt meet your needs, wait before buying it or something else.

    Let us know whats its like to drive one as soon as you can.






    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Quote:
    GT said:
    Funny how all ferrari owners seem to describe their car experience just like the way that guy does; amazing sound, people looking at me, best engine in the mkt, legendary car etc etc. I have quite a few friends that talk just like that. Interesting that they rarely actually talk about how it drives, accelerates, breaks, corners etc.
    Funny that..


    I agree with you. Most Ferrari's aren't driven to there limits either like the TT's are. They are babied. I personally am not clear on the whole F430 Spyder versus 997 TT. They are 2 completely different cars. I have deposits down on both the F430 spyder and the 997 TT and I am much more excited about the TT then the F430. The TT is a drivers car and will "Easily" outperform the 430 Spyder. The spyder is for people who need attention and want to be seen. You can drive the TT every day the Spyder is rarely driven in my experience. Keep in mind I just sold my 360 modena and my 996 TT because of the new models. I found my TT to be of higher quality then the 360 modena. Until the new 997 TT is on showroom floors and you've seen it in the metal its kinda stupid to say you don't like the looks of the car.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    The 430 is much nicer than the 360, interior and specs, don't worry about it. If you are after driving experience, get the F car. It might be a bit slower than the 997TT, but you won't regret it. Sadly now the turbo is just a more practical, cheaper supercar. If you don't want your F car, it would take you 1 minute to find a buyer at a reasonable price (just a PM away).

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Quote:
    twinturbo001 said:
    Quote:
    GT said:
    Funny how all ferrari owners seem to describe their car experience just like the way that guy does; amazing sound, people looking at me, best engine in the mkt, legendary car etc etc. I have quite a few friends that talk just like that. Interesting that they rarely actually talk about how it drives, accelerates, breaks, corners etc.
    Funny that..


    I agree with you. Most Ferrari's aren't driven to there limits either like the TT's are. They are babied. I personally am not clear on the whole F430 Spyder versus 997 TT. They are 2 completely different cars. I have deposits down on both the F430 spyder and the 997 TT and I am much more excited about the TT then the F430. The TT is a drivers car and will "Easily" outperform the 430 Spyder. The spyder is for people who need attention and want to be seen. You can drive the TT every day the Spyder is rarely driven in my experience. Keep in mind I just sold my 360 modena and my 996 TT because of the new models. I found my TT to be of higher quality then the 360 modena. Until the new 997 TT is on showroom floors and you've seen it in the metal its kinda stupid to say you don't like the looks of the car.



    Your right you sound like your are a daily car guy so buy the TT cab.

    When is your Spider due? If you don't want it please let me know. I will gladly take your position.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    When the Rennteam poll was posted about the power figure, I guessed 480hp based on my perception of Porsche's marketing strategy since the introduction of the 986. They will provide just enough straight line performance and hp (largely a marketing number) to maintain sales figures. Realistically, I did not think 500hp or more was possible for the base model.

    Why? People buy the car anyway. Or they spring for the powerkit or the S model. The image Christian portrays of Porsche being the driver's choice is no longer the case, at least with the Turbo model. The Turbo must be encompass every reason buyers have for buying a Porsche. Not just performance and driving excitement. An extra 20hp is about bragging rights for many people. Those who still want it can order a powerkit or the S version. There's money to be made here. The car will still perform wonderfully as is IMO, there doesn't seem to be the pressure from Ferrari and Lambo.

    Well Christian...at least Porsche's newest models are getting faster around Hockenheimring and not slower.

    - Justin

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Ok RC, here are few interesting questions:
    1. Why is Porsche offering rear axle differential for manual only if TIP is faster? Manual will have better traction(in wet or dry)?
    2. What will happened with TIP costumers if Manual proves to be FASTER around track like Hockenheim or Nordchleife(two very different tracks)?
    3. Is it makes any logic to all of you that TIP is faster on straight line but, possibly not on the track?
    4. Since Porsche TIP has Mercedes origin is it possible that right target costumers were SL55/65 AMG people?
    5. Maybe is from technical point of view impossible for Porsche to build manual that is faster then TIP(on straight line)?
    6. What about the rumor that there will not be PDK at all on 997 Turbo!?
    And last one-Can you imagine Porsche video where W.Rohr driver 997 Turbo with TIP around Nordschleife and claime that TIP is excellent for race track? Me NOT! But, I bet we will see something like that... Mercedes AMG will start to celebrate same moment-they offered TIPs to all of us for sometimes(and very fast TIP cars indeed!), after all this 997 Turbo TIP gearbox is actually Mercedes product in origin!
    Just some of my current opinion...

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    RC,

    Although I undersdant the basis behind your rant and the others that agree with you, I am not sorry for you at all.
    The car you're after is called a 997 Turbo S and you are right, we now know it will not come out at the same time as the Turbo.

    Is Porsche right? Of course they are, they will be milking the cow with the Turbo S from people like you who are not satisfied with the Turbo. In the meantime, they will sell a recort number of Turbo of course.

    I do agree that Porsche monitors this website, maybe, but frankly, I'm also pretty they don't give a damn about what we think. They read out posts to have an idea of our opinions and that's about it.

    Seriously, Porsche model plan is based on a 10 year span, the board is probably discussing what power should the Carrera 998S mk2 have and what should the 5th model be. Do you really think they are troubled with our rants right now?

    Let's not forget that of all Porsche clien'ts portfolio, the hard core sports car enthousiast represents what, maybe 10 to 20% at most. And of that percentage, maybe another 10% check the internet like us.

    The image thing on Porsche has indeed changed with the intro of the SUV, I don't see it a big deal. Exotic car owners are not proper sports car drivers in the majority.
    A person like Nick (nberry) will probably never exploit his F430 on the track 100% and that's fine, he gets his pleasure from other things. I know Ferrari is a different company but they are also in the high end sports car market and I know that market very well since I have to provilege to be very close to Ferrari France and the Elkann bros. When I chat with them and even the main clients who often own an Enzo AND a CGT or a Carrera as a daily drive, they've never even heard of internet forums.

    What I'm trying to tell everyone here is to take a step back and get a broader perspective on the sports car industry, and understand that if you decide not to buy the Turbo, someone else will and no, Porsche won't even notice.

    I could be wrong but I would say that most buyers of the Turbo still haven't read the press release actually.

    Porsche had changed, a lot, and for the better. Yes I invest in Porsche, so does my family and my business portfolio, it is a greatly managed company that has probably understood the market's demand better than any other manufacturer.

    The 996 Turbo was a huge success bc it was less raw that the 993 Version, Porsche went mainstream, a sports car in a business suit, their goal was to attract M and AMG buyers and they did. 0 to 60, that's what sells for most buyers. Power figure? They don't even know, fact. You would be amazed the number of Bankers in City (London) I've chatted to about the 997S who didn't even know the number of cylinders.

    Get some perspective gents.

    For the raw Porsche costumers they'll always be some alternatives and I think that's a great thing. They will probably be a GT2, even if not, GT3, GT3RS, and probably even a sports suspension for the Turbo.

    One thing I do agree with you about is that whole question mark around the Tip/ Manual performance difference. Right now, Porsche is a bit greedy on technical info. But as an engineer, I don't speculate, I analyse. And since I have nothing to analyse, I'll wait.

    Sorry about the lack of structure in that post, but I hope I've made my opinion clear.

    Again, what you really want is a Turbo S.
    It will have 30 to 50 hp more and by ordering PCCB and bucket seats, you'll shave off 40 to 50 kgs which I believe is what you're after and Posche knows it.

    But you'll have to wait (a lot more) and you'll have to pay (a lot more) and Porsche loves it!

    And so do I, as an investor.

    I understand that you are not happy with that strategy but that's the way it is. Business is business, you get what you pay for.

    I suggest you get a Turbo Tiptro and keep it til the Turbo S that you will get with PCCB and PDK (if available).

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    >>You would be amazed the number of Bankers in City (London) I've chatted to about the 997S who didn't even know the number of cylinders.

    hey - we're not all that bad!

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Quote:
    Fanch said:Let's not forget that of all Porsche client's portfolio, the hard core sports car enthusiast represents what, maybe 10 to 20% at most. And of that percentage, maybe another 10% check the Internet like us.



    Exactly, Fanch!

    Internet car-forum readers seem to suffer from from some sort of compressed time continuum combined with an obsessive/compulsive disorder.

    Never before has it been possible to "compare notes" with other obsessive/compulsive friends, with such good industry connections and high interest levels, all focused on Porsche model details. We seem to know as much or more than most Porsche dealer personnel as soon as (or before) they do. It's a lot of fun, but it creates its own new problems.

    One problem is the disappearing sense of romance with new car models. If one can know every last detail about a new Porsche before anyone outside of the factory has even seen one, where is the mystery? In this environment of full, premature disclosure, new car buying becomes less like making a date with an exciting new girl friend and more like bargaining for the services of a hooker. What mystery is left to discover?

    When I talk to my car-guy friends about an exciting new car, detailed spreadsheets of other competitive vehicles rarely come up. The discussion usually revolves around more holistic topics. One friend of mine just bought a 1980s Morgan because he isn't interested in newer, more technological cars. He's a friend whose company I enjoy immensely. He's driven Barber races and restores old Ferraris and Astons. We have a great time roaring around his rural neighborhood in my Carrera GT.

    This is the common way car guys used to relate -- before the Internet. We didn't go into convulsions over a missing four or five percentage points in horsepower relative to some arbitrary ideal. We actually waited to test drive a new car to see if it was worth our interest. If it turned out to be as exciting to drive as it was to look at or think about, we'd be in love and have to have one.

    Sometimes I think that Internet automotive forums sort of coarsen what used to be more fun. This has nothing to do with the actual cars being discussed, but more the wham-bam, thank you Ma'am, sped-up nature of the information flow.

    There are some pursuits in life wherein taking one's time and stretching out the experience is more satisfying.

    Shouldn't Porsche buying be one of them?

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Mike,

    That is an enlightened post, I couldn't agree more.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Fanch.....well said, I totally agree

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Mike's quote ,,

    One problem is the disappearing sense of romance with new car models. If one can know every last detail about a new Porsche before anyone outside of the factory has even seen one, where is the mystery? In this environment of full, premature disclosure, new car buying becomes less like making a date with an exciting new girl friend and more like bargaining for the services of a hooker. What mystery is left to discover?.........

    Mike ,,

    I could not agree more and I remember stating simular to this on a post soon after my cancellation ,, I mean being on here made me feel as though I had owned one , had probs with one (RMS) and had probs with customer service etc etc etc . It reads strange but its true , its the curiosity factor..

    Also when I was hooked on bikes years ago I never use to demo them because I felt it would spoil the pick up day , I just read a few mag test reviews . Of course though your going to demo a P when your talking this amount of money but you get where I am coming from ,,, I hope ..

    throt...

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Mike, I too really like and identify with your post.

    I went over to my local Subaru forum the other day and saw a topic on the new 997 TT and everyone was really impressed and enthusiastic. It was refreshing to read actually. No one was hung up over how good the tip was, just appreciated that this looked to be a really impressive car.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Well said W8MM !

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    As always, RC--thanks for your professionalism and honesty. But my instincts are to tell you to relax a bit, and enjoy this new 997TT. Is it the dream car? No, but no car is after all, and one's perception of that car changes with life's overall circumstances.

    And just one other point. All these posts about other cars catching up, about Corvettes now challenging Porsche, etc., lack historical perspective. I have been driving powerful Porsches (at the time) on the track and street for almost forty years (904GTS, Carrera RS 3.0, three generations of Turbos starting from 1976, 911S modified greatly, for example) and I have always been challenged by some corvette, Dodge hemi, chevy SS, Ferrari, and so on. I also have gotten some snobby looks over the years, but I have also gotten many, many more comments of admiration and appreciation. If you drive arrogantly, you get arrogant looks and comments--if you drive respectfully on the street, you get nice looks and comments from the type of people who appreciate wonderful engineering and design.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Wonderbar right on !!

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Quote:
    Wonderbar said:
    If you drive arrogantly, you get arrogant looks and comments--if you drive respectfully on the street, you get nice looks and comments from the type of people who appreciate wonderful engineering and design.



    This is "My thought for the month" . Thanks man.

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    I find it very funny that when a car has faster acceleration, for example the C6 Z06, everyone says "Oh acceleration is not everything, it's the driving dynamics, feel, etc. that are more important". But now when Porsche says the Tip is faster than the manual, everyone is up in arms and crying "foul", "conspiracy", etc.......

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:Let's not forget that of all Porsche client's portfolio, the hard core sports car enthusiast represents what, maybe 10 to 20% at most. And of that percentage, maybe another 10% check the Internet like us.



    Exactly, Fanch!

    Internet car-forum readers seem to suffer from from some sort of compressed time continuum combined with an obsessive/compulsive disorder.

    Never before has it been possible to "compare notes" with other obsessive/compulsive friends, with such good industry connections and high interest levels, all focused on Porsche model details. We seem to know as much or more than most Porsche dealer personnel as soon as (or before) they do. It's a lot of fun, but it creates its own new problems.



    Although it creates problems, it is somewhat necessary. How can you justify putting down a deposit on a machine of transportation that costs 150k+ (some cases 200k+)? Should you enter a contractual obligation on blind faith? Not very many people can afford that chance, so they attempt to recoop as much information as possible.

    And this is what these internet forums are about...information. One of the reasons that rennteam is so successful and cogent is the fact that the information here is very pertinent and focused. The information has become the commodity of the world (21st century phenomenon).

    ------------

    As for RC's post: I empathize with you. I fell in love with Porsche due to its heritage and dominance. It was a no-compromise situation, especially for models like the 993TT. However now, I feel like that heritage has become a marketing tool and that dominance has become a level playing field...
    One of the reasons for this is also the proliferation of information technologies (comming full circle in this argument ). Engineers bounce about from company to company, designs are analyzed, scrutinized and deconstructed.

    However, as this game of exclusive sportscars becomes more of a financial stake in terms of corporate viability, I feel that these elements in a car company degrade. Right now we are in a horsepower war among the various car companies in the world, and although Porsche is seemingly drawing a line in the sand, it is also banking on a new clientel to fill its coffers...

    That type of clientel does not frequent rennteam...it is the clientel which, as CF said, doesn't know how many cylinders are in their vehicles

    Re: The 997 Turbo - Controversial Opinions?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    PDK may improve the 0-200 kph time by half a second or so, I don't see any more possible improvement regarding the 0-100 kph performance compared to Tiptronic.
    But PDK will offer other advantages, especially for track racing. Like extremely fast shifting cycles, etc. PDK is rumored to shift around 20-30% faster than the current F1 shifting system on the F430, so you get the point.



    Well,the PDK changes gears "ohne Zugkraftunterbrechung",just like in a Golf .So,shifting time is 0.000 seconds.It can't be faster than that

    Also,the Tip will not be faster around a track...I suppose,we'll see.

     
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