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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Gnil:

    I have voice command in my Q7 and in my GT3 RS .  I never use it , don't even think about using it . The very few times I tried i did find it conter efficient .

    Do you guys use voice control in your cars ? 

    I used it from time to time but gave up quickly.

    Now I use it all the time, MBUX is really amazing but not perfect.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:

    I am really not that difficult I think.

    All I wanted is a physical volume knob to control volume and mute, a rotary dial for input and scrolling, manual vent controls, physical windows buttons and physical seat controls, physical turn signals and physical steering wheel and foot pedals, a button easily accessible for turning off start stop function, and a button to answer and end calls. Everything else can be buried somewhere. That's like 10 buttons total if I am in a 4 door car.

     

    So I guess Mercedes did something right? Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:

    Btw Leawood, see? I am not only picking on your beloved Teslas, this is Porsche that I am criticizing too which I have no problem complaining. I simply say things as it is no matter the brand.

     

    No worries. I love ya man. Now that I realize Porsche would not sell you a 935 I don’t feel so bad about owning Porsche’s for 40 years and being stuck at the bottom of a gt3 list.

     Not certain why the volume knob on the steering wheel does not work for you?  Btw the air vent controls in the tesla use diffused air from below to manage the air flow. The vents don’t move around electrically like on the Porsche which in my opinion creates a new point of failure and is too complex for nothing. Tesla’s vents are virtual and can’t be adjusted any other way. 
    I do love my turbo. The tesla is a second car which happens to be the best second car ever for me. Which I enjoy. If you have not driven a m3p you really should.   


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    I am really not that difficult I think.

    All I wanted is a physical volume knob to control volume and mute, a rotary dial for input and scrolling, manual vent controls, physical windows buttons and physical seat controls, physical turn signals and physical steering wheel and foot pedals, a button easily accessible for turning off start stop function, and a button to answer and end calls. Everything else can be buried somewhere. That's like 10 buttons total if I am in a 4 door car.

     

    So I guess Mercedes did something right? Smiley Smiley

     

    To be fair BMW also fits the bill also, and they have a better looking interior in my mind Smiley


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:
    Whoopsy:

    Btw Leawood, see? I am not only picking on your beloved Teslas, this is Porsche that I am criticizing too which I have no problem complaining. I simply say things as it is no matter the brand.

     

    No worries. I love ya man. Now that I realize Porsche would not sell you a 935 I don’t feel so bad about owning Porsche’s for 40 years and being stuck at the bottom of a gt3 list.

     Not certain why the volume knob on the steering wheel does not work for you?  Btw the air vent controls in the tesla use diffused air from below to manage the air flow. The vents don’t move around electrically like on the Porsche which in my opinion creates a new point of failure and is too complex for nothing. Tesla’s vents are virtual and can’t be adjusted any other way. 
    I do love my turbo. The tesla is a second car which happens to be the best second car ever for me. Which I enjoy. If you have not driven a m3p you really should.   

     

    Cause it takes longer to adjust with the steering wheel button than simply turning a knob. Most knobs when pressed down is mute, not so for steering wheel button. Yes it's maybe 1/2 second difference in timing but still, knobs are easier and more convenient.

    As for vents, at times I don't want the diffuse function, my Panamera defaults to that also for the centre vent, sometimes I prefer a concentrated blow. It's just simpler and easier to use manual vent controls.


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    porsche-rents-tesla-model-3-test-autopilot-impressed


    --

    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    nberry:

    porsche-rents-tesla-model-3-test-autopilot-impressed

    Tesla has some strengths and software/algorithms is definitely one of them...for now. 

    If you compare the Taycan to the latest Tesla model(s), you have to admire how far Porsche came in such a short period of time.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    As I expected. 

    porsche-taycan-review-a-stealth-revolution-in-electric-driving


    --

    Having everything is nice, but it's even nicer to make sure everything you've got is actually worth having.


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    RC:
    nberry:

    porsche-rents-tesla-model-3-test-autopilot-impressed

    Tesla has some strengths and software/algorithms is definitely one of them...for now. 

    If you compare the Taycan to the latest Tesla model(s), you have to admire how far Porsche came in such a short period of time.

    Yeah, we have to admire how the richest kid in the crowd bought the desired toy, put it in pieces and put a ton of money to make his own one a bit better with jacked up price. We need to be realistic. Taycan is great but without Tesla, the Taycan would not not even be here. And I really don’t like Tesla. 


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014



    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    the-missile:
    RC:
    nberry:

    porsche-rents-tesla-model-3-test-autopilot-impressed

    Tesla has some strengths and software/algorithms is definitely one of them...for now. 

    If you compare the Taycan to the latest Tesla model(s), you have to admire how far Porsche came in such a short period of time.

    Yeah, we have to admire how the richest kid in the crowd bought the desired toy, put it in pieces and put a ton of money to make his own one a bit better with jacked up price. We need to be realistic. Taycan is great but without Tesla, the Taycan would not not even be here. And I really don’t like Tesla. 

    Even absent Tesla, Porsche and Volkswagen Group were moving toward EVs for several decades in order to meet oppressively limiting CO2 emission standards in the EU, China, and California.  They originally thought that diesels could help meet to pending standards; however, the dieselgate debacle indelibly changed the calculus and EVs are the only way for the Volkswagen Group to meet the new C02 standards.  

    Of course, the limited success of Tesla has paved a path of Porsche, Volkswagen Group, and the rest of the German Auto Industry, to rapidly move forward with EVs as Tesla has demonstrated that customer demand does exist for this alternate drivetrain configuration.   


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Interesting press release from Porsche as it echoes an article earlier this year in Porsche Engineering magazine.  Is this a preview of the EV version of the Macan?   A few here on RT fail to appreciate the breadth and depth of engineering talent at Porsche, even during its transition to EVs.  

    Through the snow as if on rails

    Thanks to variably distributable drive power, electric vehicles with separately powered wheels can remain stable even in critical situations— as long as the torque control reliably detects deviations from the target state and reacts immediately. Porsche Engineering has developed and tested a solution for e-SUVs that does precisely that. Without additional sensors— entirely through software.

    12/04/2019

    Thanks to variably distributable drive power, electric vehicles with separately powered wheels can remain stable even in critical situations— as long as the torque control reliably detects deviations from the target state and reacts immediately. Porsche Engineering has developed and tested a solution for e-SUVs that does precisely that. Without additional sensors— entirely through software.

    It’s a situation that every driver dreads: a snow-covered road, a surprisingly tight corner, and barely any time to brake. With a normal vehicle, a dangerous loss of control is an all-too-real possibility. The rear could swing out, causing the car to spin and land in the ditch. Yet in this test, everything goes differently: The driver turns and the SUV steers confidently into the corner—without even slowing down. A glance at the speedometer (80 km/h is the reading) removes all doubt that this is no ordinary vehicle. The SUV being tested in this wintry environment is an electrically powered all-wheel-drive vehicle with four motors— one for each wheel.

    Until now, this drive technology was seen only in Mars rovers, but now it has reached the everyday world: Porsche Engineering recently developed a torque control system for electrically powered series SUVs. It was truly pioneering work. “We had to develop a lot of it from the ground up,” says Dr. Martin Rezac, Team Leader for Function Development at Porsche Engineering. There was also an additional challenge: The driving characteristics had to be optimized exclusively through software. The Porsche engineers could not install any additional sensors and had to use the existing control devices. The task, in short, was essentially driving stability by app.

    Purely electronic control of torque

    An electric all-wheel-drive vehicle with multiple motors has a fundamental advantage over gasoline or diesel engines: The front and rear axles, indeed all four wheels, have their own electric motors, enabling extremely variable distribution of the drive power. “It’s almost as if you had a separate gas pedal for each axle or wheel,” explains Ulf Hintze of Porsche Engineering. In a conventional all-wheel-drive vehicle, there is just one engine at work, whose power is distributed to the axles through a central differential. As a rule, the torque ratio is fixed: one-third up front and two-thirds in the back, for instance. The ratio can, in theory, be changed, but additional mechanical gadgetry is required for that (multi-plate friction clutch), and it works rather sluggishly. In an electric vehicle, by contrast, the torque is purely electronically controlled, which works considerably faster than mechanical clutches. Every millisecond, intelligent software distributes the forces in such a way that the vehicle always behaves neutrally.

    And Porsche Engineering developed just such a torque control system for all-wheel drive SUVs. The software can be used for different constellations and motor configurations—for other electric vehicle types as well, of course. In general, development begins with the base distribution, i.e. software that controls how much power is transmitted to the front and rear axle, respectively. For straight-line driving and balanced weight scenario, for example, a 50/50 distribution would make sense. If the driver accelerates, the software switches to full rear-wheel drive—or all frontwheel drive around a sharp bend. “This makes the vehicle noticeably more stable, even for the passenger,” says function developer Rezac. As the optimization is achieved entirely electronically, theoretically it would even be possible to offer the driver various different configurations: one mode for sports car sprightliness, another for smooth cruising.

    The second task of the control software is to adjust the torque to the wheel speed. The algorithms follow a simple objective: All wheels are supposed to spin at the same speed. That’s easy to accomplish on a dry freeway, but it is considerably trickier when driving on a snowy mountain pass. If the front wheels encounter an icy patch, for example, they could—without electronic intervention—start spinning. But the torque control system detects the suboptimal situation immediately and directs the torque to the wheels that are turning more slowly and still have grip within fractions of a second. There is something similar in the world of combustion engines—the speed-sensing limited-slip differential, also known by the brand name Visco Lok. In this component, gear wheels and hydraulics ensure that no wheel turns faster than the others. But mechanical solutions are slow. In an electric SUV, by contrast, software assumes the role of the differential— with much swifter reactions and naturally entirely without wear.

    “The vehicle feels noticeably more stable.” Dr. Martin Rezac, Porsche Engineering

    The third and most important function of the torque control system lies in its control of lateral dynamics, i.e. the ability to neutralize critical driving situations like the one mentioned at the outset: a slippery surface, a tight corner, and high speed. An uncontrolled vehicle would quickly understeer in this situation. In other words, the driver initiates the turn, but the vehicle slides in a straight line without slowing down. The control software in the e-SUV immediately puts an end to understeering. In a left-hand turn, it would brake the rear left wheel and accelerate the right one until a neutral driving situation was restored. The system takes similar measures when oversteer occurs (rear end swinging out). The driver, meanwhile, ideally notices nothing of these interventions, because the torque control system acts very subtly and quickly. “It feels like driving on rails—an SUV behaves with the agility of a sports car,” says Hintze, summarizing the effect.

    The observer module keeps watch

    The driving state observer (shortened to simply the “observer” by the engineers) is involved in all intervention decisions. This software module continuously monitors a variety of factors: how forcefully the steering wheel was turned, how much the driver is accelerating, and how much the vehicle is turning around its vertical axis. The data is provided by a yaw sensor. This actual status is compared with a dynamic model of the vehicle that represents the target state under normal conditions. If the observer detects deviations, for instance due to oversteer or understeer, the software intervenes. If the vehicle is not turning into a corner as quickly as would be expected from the current steering wheel position and speed, individual wheels are selectively braked until the direction is back on line.

    The same effect may be achieved by a conventional electronic stability control (ESP) system as well—but in an electrically powered all-wheel-drive vehicle, the safety system can do more: While a conventional ESP system only brakes, in an electric vehicle the individual wheels can be accelerated as well. This “pulls” the vehicle back onto the right track without losing speed. The intervention is also less jerky than in a hydraulic ESP system; the typical juddering familiar from anti-lock brake systems is omitted.

    “It’s as if you had a separate gas pedal for each axle.” Ulf Hintze, Porsche Engineering

    “The development of the vehicle observer was the biggest challenge,” says Rezac. The fact that so much development work was required here goes back to a fundamental problem: A car knows relatively little about its own state. It doesn’t know its own speed; it can only derive it from the speed of the wheels, which is difficult on ice and snow particularly. The observer therefore has to use additional information about the longitudinal and lateral acceleration in order to estimate the speed. The information regarding weight distribution is equally vague. While the suspension does capture the load on the individual wheels, even this information provides mere clues rather than certainty. If the shock absorbers report increased weight on the rear axle, for example, it could be due to the vehicle being parked on a slope—or simply being heavily loaded.

    The data situation is decidedly meager. And because the client insisted that no additional sensors could be added, the SUV project called on the creativity of the software developers. “The observer has to estimate the vehicle’s important parameters,” explains Rezac. Some unusual data sources are brought to bear: The torque control system communicates with a sensor that detects the inclination of the car, for example, which is usually used for the automatic adjustment of the headlights.

    The entire software package not only had to be developed, but calibrated in real test drives. And all that in a very short period of time: There were just two winters available in which the fine-tuning could be tested on a frozen river. It emerged, among other things, that the great advantage of electric motors—their rapid reaction times—sometimes resulted in undesired side effects. “The electric motors respond so quickly that vibrations can occur,” reports Hintze, who conducted the test drives with his team. In a few situations the software transfered the torque between the axles at increasingly fast intervals, which resulted in an audible revving of the motors. Thanks to close collaboration between the calibration team and the development team around Martin Rezac, however, they quickly managed to put a stop to this build-up through a modification of the software.

    This detailed work is exactly where the challenge lies in such projects. As the software is to be used in a series vehicle, it has to be tested for every imaginable situation, no matter how improbable it might seem. If the sensor reports faulty data, for example, the torque control has to decide if it is still allowed to function even without the data source or should be switched off. Another hurdle was posed by the limits of the electric drive technology. It may be the case, for example, that individual e-motors cannot transmit the available battery power. The function developers had to take such limitations into account. “The control range collapses in this case,” says Hintze. Instead of 100 percent torque on one axle, perhaps only 60 percent might be available. And the torque control has to take that into account as well. But all involved are convinced: The pioneering work was well worth the effort, as electric vehicles with up to four motors will soon shed their exotic reputation. And many drivers will be grateful that they can drive through the snow as if on rails.

    In brief

    Porsche Engineering developed a torque control system for an all-wheel-drive e-SUV that provides maximum stability and safety in every situation—without additional sensors on board. All four wheels are actuated with the optimal force within milliseconds and stabilize the vehicle. The software was not only developed by Porsche Engineering, but also calibrated in real test drives over a period of just two winters. The software is suitable for different constellations and motor configurations.

    Info

    Text: Constantin Gillies
    Photos: Tobias Habermann

    Text first published in the Porsche Engineering Magazine, issue 01/2019


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    CGX car nut:
    the-missile:
    RC:
    nberry:

    porsche-rents-tesla-model-3-test-autopilot-impressed

    Tesla has some strengths and software/algorithms is definitely one of them...for now. 

    If you compare the Taycan to the latest Tesla model(s), you have to admire how far Porsche came in such a short period of time.

    Yeah, we have to admire how the richest kid in the crowd bought the desired toy, put it in pieces and put a ton of money to make his own one a bit better with jacked up price. We need to be realistic. Taycan is great but without Tesla, the Taycan would not not even be here. And I really don’t like Tesla. 

    Even absent Tesla, Porsche and Volkswagen Group were moving toward EVs for several decades in order to meet oppressively limiting CO2 emission standards in the EU, China, and California.  They originally thought that diesels could help meet to pending standards; however, the dieselgate debacle indelibly changed the calculus and EVs are the only way for the Volkswagen Group to meet the new C02 standards.  

    Of course, the limited success of Tesla has paved a path of Porsche, Volkswagen Group, and the rest of the German Auto Industry, to rapidly move forward with EVs as Tesla has demonstrated that customer demand does exist for this alternate drivetrain configuration.   

    There is a lot of debate in the physics community if multiple universes exits. I think that this is no longer an open question :)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    schmoell:
    CGX car nut:
    the-missile:
    RC:
    nberry:

    porsche-rents-tesla-model-3-test-autopilot-impressed

    Tesla has some strengths and software/algorithms is definitely one of them...for now. 

    If you compare the Taycan to the latest Tesla model(s), you have to admire how far Porsche came in such a short period of time.

    Yeah, we have to admire how the richest kid in the crowd bought the desired toy, put it in pieces and put a ton of money to make his own one a bit better with jacked up price. We need to be realistic. Taycan is great but without Tesla, the Taycan would not not even be here. And I really don’t like Tesla. 

    Even absent Tesla, Porsche and Volkswagen Group were moving toward EVs for several decades in order to meet oppressively limiting CO2 emission standards in the EU, China, and California.  They originally thought that diesels could help meet to pending standards; however, the dieselgate debacle indelibly changed the calculus and EVs are the only way for the Volkswagen Group to meet the new C02 standards.  

    Of course, the limited success of Tesla has paved a path of Porsche, Volkswagen Group, and the rest of the German Auto Industry, to rapidly move forward with EVs as Tesla has demonstrated that customer demand does exist for this alternate drivetrain configuration.   

    There is a lot of debate in the physics community if multiple universes exits. I think that this is no longer an open question :)

    Start your visit to an alternate universe here:

    Volkswagen Shows Off Its 40-Year History Of Electric Cars

    John Voelcker - Contributor

    John Voelcker March 31, 2014

    While its new 2015 Volkswagen e-Golf will be the first-ever plug-in electric VW sold in the U.S., the German carmaker has a surprisingly long history of prototype electric cars.

    Two weeks ago, during a drive event for its VW e-Golf and e-Up production models, along with prototype Golf GTE plug-in hybrids, Volkswagen showed off restored examples of some of its earlier electric test vehicles.

    MORE: 2015 Volkswagen e-Golf: Drive Report, First U.S. Sale Details

    Volkswagen has experimented with electric cars since the 1970s, when the Volkswagen Golf (Rabbit) platform was first produced.

    These electric conversions were built in very limited numbers--dozens or perhaps 100--to give the company a better understanding of how real-world users treated cars with electric drive.

    Volkswagen Golf City Stromer Mk II, historic VW electric car at Tempelhof Airport, Berlin

    Volkswagen Golf City Stromer Mk II, historic VW electric car at Tempelhof Airport, Berlin

    All of them used heavy, low-capacity lead-acid batteries. In the Golf models, they were located under the rear seat and the load bay, resulting in reduced rear space and an awkward and very reclined rear seat-back angle.

    On display (though apparently not in  running condition) were two different generations of VW Golf City Stromer--based on second- and third-generation Golf hatchbacks--along with an even earlier VW Transporter T2 Elektro.

    The name's not a typo: "Stromer" comes from the German word "Strom", or "Current," with the "City" prefix alluded to the limited range and city-car usage of the test vehicles.

    The second-generation Range Stromer, based on a late-Eighties Golf, used VW used heavy lead-acid gel batteries and an anemic 18.5-kilowatt electric motor.

    MORE: Volkswagen Golf GTE Plug-In Hybrid: First Drive Of Prototype

    It provided a range of 50 to 60 miles on a good day, and a top speed of around 60 mph. And the third-generation model was little better.

    Our contributor Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield wrote about her own second-generation Golf City Stromer, now owned by Volkswagen of Great Britain, which is restoring it.

    Perhaps most interesting was an electric conversion of a Volkswagen Type 2 Transporter, better known in the U.S. in its multi-window form as the "VW Van" of hippie and surfer legend.

    Volkswagen provided relatively little information beyond the name plates (and, frankly, we were driving new plug-in VWs most of the day), but the T2 Elektro obviously carried banks of lead-acid batteries under its floor as well.

    MORE: Volkswagen e-Up: Driving VW's Smallest Electric Car (Forbidden Fruit)

    We'd welcome more information on these historic electric Volkswagens.

    Meanwhile, enjoy the photos--and reflect on how very far the state of the art in electric cars has come since that first electric Golf 40 years ago!

    Volkswagen provided airfare, lodging, and meals to enable High Gear Media to bring you this first-person report.

    _______________________________________________

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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Next visit this other alternative universe...

    THE  CURRENT PAST 

    The e-tron® isn’t our first EV. Let’s look back on the Audi Duo.

    Doug Rosenfeld (writer), Audi AG (photos)

    move

    The story of the Audi Duo provides a classic example of an idea ahead of its time.

    When most of us think of hybrid cars, we think of the Toyota Prius, originally released in Japan in 1997. But Audi offered one at the Frankfurt Motor Show in 1989, the Audi Duo 100 Avant, a pioneering vehicle that influenced hybrids for decades to come.

    Forward-looking features

    By the time the Audi Duo, based on the Audi 100 Avant quattro, premiered in Frankfurt, the concept had undergone several years of intensive research and development. Its engineers noticed a number of emerging problems in auto engineering, many of which hadn’t been noticed by other manufacturers at the time and may not have been addressed until years later.

    “The Duo could drive emission-free in the city and with a combustion engine between cities.” 
    —Marius Lehna, leading engineer on the Duo III

    A key insight that our engineers recognized was that the traditional all-wheel-drive system—set up for an internal combustion engine—was inefficient at low speeds and placed excessive stress on the rear axle. They circumvented this problem by using a five-cylinder combustion engine to drive the front wheels, and a part-time 9.3 kW electric motor, driven by a nickel-cadmium battery, for the rear wheels. This is the configuration used in many modern hybrids.

    The solution was for the Audi Duo to automatically switch to electric power at lower speeds, helping the car run more efficiently overall. Since they included both motors, the Audi engineers added a system that enabled drivers to switch between gas and electric motors. In short, they created a full-featured hybrid vehicle in 1989, helping set the stage for today’s hybrid vehicles.

    A challenging debut

    But like any innovation that is breaking barriers, there were some limitations. The engineers said the car could go 0–20 mph in eight seconds, which was a challenge for a performance brand. Plus, the Audi Duo weighed 440-plus pounds more than an equivalent gas-powered model—which limited its gas mileage potential.

    Even so, when the Audi Duo premiered in Frankfurt, audiences were intrigued by its original concept. The Four Ring manufacturing department recognized enough public interest to continue the research and development, resulting in the Audi Duo II.

    A succession of innovations

    Ingolstadt unveiled the Audi Duo II concept, based on the Avant quattro, in 1991. It featured a more modern 2.0-liter engine and a larger, 21 kW electric motor feeding power to the all-wheel-drive system. The more advanced electric motor and battery system could decouple the front axle and directly drive the rear wheels. Thanks to the updated design and technology, the driving range increased to about 49 miles.

    Six years later, Audi premiered a limited-edition plug-in hybrid in Europe: Audi Duo III. Based on the next-generation A4 Avant, we installed a pressure combustion engine to account for the extra weight of the EV components. In a break from the previous-generation Duos, the engineers abandoned the quattro® all-wheel-drive system. The Audi Duo III plug-in would drive only the front wheels. Regenerative braking was added to recapture energy on deceleration and downhill driving—technology found on most hybrids today.

    The Audi Duo III was the first European hybrid vehicle to be put into production, and it was limited to 60 vehicles that were leased to consumers.

    Throughout the 1990s, Audi unveiled one inventive hybrid after another, anticipating modern designs and features by years or even decades. Very expensive cutting-edge technology—on top of an already expensive vehicle—combined with a changed political landscape to make mass production a challenge. We never gave up on the perfecting the technology—and when we rolled out the Audi Q5 hybrid quattro in 2011, consumers were ready.

    "Between the Duo I and the Duo III, the efficiency “from battery to wheel increased significantly.”
    —Marius Lehna, leading engineer on the Duo III

    Today, it’s easy to see that the Audi Duo series would have been more at home in 2009 than in 1989. That series shows how our engineers were creating the future decades ago.

    For a glimpse of what the automotive world will look like in 2030 and beyond, just look at what we are working on today. If the Audi Duo is any indication, innovation today is creating the vehicle of tomorrow.

    The story of the Audi Duo provides a classic example of an idea ahead of its time.


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    no need to argue; you win 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    schmoell:

    no need to argue; you win 

    Granted, Volkswagen Group didn't produce EVs in high volume and that ultimately was down to issues of battery technology at the time.  This was true with General Motors and its EV-1 from the 1990s.  The original EV-1 utilized lead-acid batteries which limited range.  The second revision relied on NiCad batteries, while possessing greater energy densities leading to greater range, had the downfall of SoC memory which degraded battery pack performance over time.

    Interestingly, General Motors worked with AC Propulsion during its development of the EV-1 just like Tesla did in its early days, years later.  This is why the Roadster, Model S, and Model X was developed using an induction motor.  This was an artifact from the AC Propulsion licensing program and this also explains why the inverter design for those vehicles is based on older technology than what is found on the Model 3.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    When the Porsche motors and batteries are close to as efficient and long lasting as the newest Tesla tech and when they are as good at self driving then it will be time to marvel at Porsche’s tech. Until then you have to hand it to the little startup that is already well in the lead.  
    If you want the prize for fit and finish and good looking interior at any price you can certainly claim it.
     Let’s face it that long article about software and electric motors being superior in aiding traction and stability is not based on stuff Porsche is doing in a vacuum or as a first. This is old hat for tesla since the original roadsters switched from analog to digital motor controllers. 
    Now let’s watch how well Porsche production fares and how many recalls or issues customers will need to face. IMHO as a Porsche lover and Tesla owner Porsche is not nearly as attractive a buy as people think. Porsche is still wide open in terms of other new competitors catching them while they will fall further behind when the new Model S comes out soon. 
     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    When the Porsche motors and batteries are close to as efficient and long lasting as the newest Tesla tech and when they are as good at self driving then it will be time to marvel at Porsche’s tech. Until then you have to hand it to the little startup that is already well in the lead.  
    If you want the prize for fit and finish and good looking interior at any price you can certainly claim it.
     Let’s face it that long article about software and electric motors being superior in aiding traction and stability is not based on stuff Porsche is doing in a vacuum or as a first. This is old hat for tesla since the original roadsters switched from analog to digital motor controllers. 
    Now let’s watch how well Porsche production fares and how many recalls or issues customers will need to face. IMHO as a Porsche lover and Tesla owner Porsche is not nearly as attractive a buy as people think. Porsche is still wide open in terms of other new competitors catching them while they will fall further behind when the new Model S comes out soon. 
     

    Them some specious statements.   Certain classes of electric machines, not motors since both manufacturers also use recuperation, have relatively equivalent efficiencies.   Increasing efficiencies is why Tesla, for example, moved from an induction machine to the switched permanent magnetic machine; however, there are other engineering trade offs that design teams consider when selecting an EV machine design.  
     

    Next in the chain are the efficiencies associated with the inverters.   At this time little is known about Porsche’s inverter design so little is gained in debating which OEM produces a more efficient inverter design.  
     

    Finally, there is the cell chemistry along with its associated battery pack management and climate system design.  Tesla, historically has selected more energetic chemistries than those utilized by others.  Again, one has not read any independent measures of efficiencies relating to isolated battery packs.  
     

    Essentially what you refer to as efficiencies are the stated EPA and WLTP test protocols results where Tesla products have greater range than others; however, these figures are self-reported by the automakers and there is significant evidence that Porsche and Audi are taking a conservative approach to the reporting.  This is also reflected in the reported greater buffer in SoC where the battery management system sets aside top and bottom end SoC buffers for more rapid charging and, hopefully, increased longevity with little overall degradation.  
     

    Once again, one has contended that Tesla makes and interesting product, but the constant opinion that Tesla has a lock on overall EV competence is fallacious, at best.  


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    I was referring to kilowatt hours per mile traveled. This number is quickly becoming the accepted standard measure. That combines battery, regen and motor efficiency into one number. I was not looking at range.  Tesla has great numbers even compared to other EVs which are far slower.

    in terms of autopilot or even autonomy nothing comes close. But that’s not even worth discussing. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    I never have been, and never will be, even remotely interested in comparing Tesla and the Taycan.  What I am interested in, however, is a comparison between the Taycan models and comparable Porsche model range. For example, I’m very interested in comparing the Taycan 4S with a 992 4S, or comparing the Taycan Turbo with either the Panamera Turbo or the 992 turbo.


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    +1


    --

    1992 964 Carrera 2 - 2016 Macan S Diesel - 2018 Mini JCW


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    5CA7967C-BC47-4FE1-92E3-C0D7251B2AC8.jpeg


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    the-missile:
    RC:
    nberry:

    porsche-rents-tesla-model-3-test-autopilot-impressed

    Tesla has some strengths and software/algorithms is definitely one of them...for now. 

    If you compare the Taycan to the latest Tesla model(s), you have to admire how far Porsche came in such a short period of time.

    Yeah, we have to admire how the richest kid in the crowd bought the desired toy, put it in pieces and put a ton of money to make his own one a bit better with jacked up price. We need to be realistic. Taycan is great but without Tesla, the Taycan would not not even be here. And I really don’t like Tesla. 

    I rather think that Tesla was a consequence of our (us humans) pathological disposition to make our lives miserable instead of letting the technology developments go their "natural" flow. EVs were forced upon us and I have to say that I admire Elon Musk for his vision and strategic foresight. Or maybe he is just a lucky bastard, you never know. Smiley 

    No matter how much money Porsche (or better said VW Group) pumped into EVs, it is astonishing how fast the Taycan was developed and put on the street. Yes, there will be issues at the beginning but I said it before, I am positive that in five years tops, VW Group will be the leader in the EV market worldwide.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    So we can agree who the leader is for now. Thanks for that RC. Time will certainly tell. They are at least five years away at this time. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    So we can agree who the leader is for now. Thanks for that RC. Time will certainly tell. They are at least five years away at this time. 

    The leader is definitely Tesla when it comes to EV tech (not quality) but the tech Tesla uses is not exclusive, only the software is (not really though, Open Source more and more), so in the end, it comes down to clever algorithms and employees but this is not something the competition can't do too.

    I predicted VW Group's leadership in the EV market after 10 years but now, I actually think that in five years, they will be leaders. Time will tell indeed. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:

    So we can agree who the leader is for now. Thanks for that RC. Time will certainly tell. They are at least five years away at this time. 

     

    Tesla maybe have started 5 years ahead go VAG on EV, but I am not sure if they are actually 5 year ahead right now. They might actually be behind already on next generation technology. They are still stuck on 400V system as the most glaring example. At best Tesla is half a generation ahead on current tech.

    Software wise they are perhaps quite a bit ahead on advance cruise control, but if we talk about other stuff, it's pointless to be ahead in software as updates can only do so much when everything else is limited by hardware. You can only optimize the code so much to make a 486 run so fast when everyone else is running the latest Core I7s, and bloated code means absolutely nothing with that kind of processing power. Since you are a software engineer you will surely understands that. Which is why currently those Indian and Chinese coding houses are so popular, they can knock out codes in no time but quality wise they are shit but no one cares.

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    So we can agree who the leader is for now. Thanks for that RC. Time will certainly tell. They are at least five years away at this time. 

     

    Tesla maybe have started 5 years ahead go VAG on EV, but I am not sure if they are actually 5 year ahead right now. They might actually be behind already on next generation technology. They are still stuck on 400V system as the most glaring example. At best Tesla is half a generation ahead on current tech.

    Software wise they are perhaps quite a bit ahead on advance cruise control, but if we talk about other stuff, it's pointless to be ahead in software as updates can only do so much when everything else is limited by hardware. You can only optimize the code so much to make a 486 run so fast when everyone else is running the latest Core I7s, and bloated code means absolutely nothing with that kind of processing power. Since you are a software engineer you will surely understands that. Which is why currently those Indian and Chinese coding houses are so popular, they can knock out codes in no time but quality wise they are shit but no one cares.

     

     

    If you get a change watch that tesla autonomy event on YouTube. Don’t have a link. They discuss in great detail the processors they created, the software, the AI and the hardware. It’s a couple of hours but very informative.  The hardware is there. The AI is well trained and constantly learning and regulatory guidelines are mostly what is missing.  They are on the right track. Fascinating video. Let me know if they missed something after watching. It may make you question why some people hold the opinions they hold against tesla.  As a software dude I found it a perfect storm of brilliant people working on something really fun and productive. I would love to take part in that. 


    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    Leawood911:
    Whoopsy:
    Leawood911:

    So we can agree who the leader is for now. Thanks for that RC. Time will certainly tell. They are at least five years away at this time. 

     

    Tesla maybe have started 5 years ahead go VAG on EV, but I am not sure if they are actually 5 year ahead right now. They might actually be behind already on next generation technology. They are still stuck on 400V system as the most glaring example. At best Tesla is half a generation ahead on current tech.

    Software wise they are perhaps quite a bit ahead on advance cruise control, but if we talk about other stuff, it's pointless to be ahead in software as updates can only do so much when everything else is limited by hardware. You can only optimize the code so much to make a 486 run so fast when everyone else is running the latest Core I7s, and bloated code means absolutely nothing with that kind of processing power. Since you are a software engineer you will surely understands that. Which is why currently those Indian and Chinese coding houses are so popular, they can knock out codes in no time but quality wise they are shit but no one cares.

     

     

    If you get a change watch that tesla autonomy event on YouTube. Don’t have a link. They discuss in great detail the processors they created, the software, the AI and the hardware. It’s a couple of hours but very informative.  The hardware is there. The AI is well trained and constantly learning and regulatory guidelines are mostly what is missing.  They are on the right track. Fascinating video. Let me know if they missed something after watching. It may make you question why some people hold the opinions they hold against tesla.  As a software dude I found it a perfect storm of brilliant people working on something really fun and productive. I would love to take part in that. 

     

    Not really talking about that useless cruise control thing, but yes I know what's inside the car, and the majority of the 'AI' is stored in the cloud with photo recognition algorithm. Tesla is literally training the software as it's customers are driving around and that tells the car what the AI 'thinks' is ahead and what the car should do in each situation.

    And here comes back to the point about hardware. Tesla relies on normal cameras to do the work, it's cheap and at the time it was more advanced than the competing LIDAR system. But now LIDAR is the more advanced system and Tesla cars are stuck with the camera system, no software updates can turn those cameras into LIDAR sensors. 

    The cameras are 2D, it needs to gather distance information also from the radar sensors on the bumper to put images into context. LIDAR scans have distance information built into the data already. It sees obstacles at that very moment, not after processing. 

    Anyways, kudos for Tesla to be Abel to write software complex enough to recognizes images and combine that with radar and feed the data back to the car in almost real time. 

    But at the end of the day, advance cruise control is only a 'feature' that's valued highly by Tesla owners, most drivers on the road can't care less. 


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    Re: Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!

    They explain why lidar is not required. They built custom parallel chips and computers with optimized to recognize images.  Assuming that people won’t care about autonomy is just a bit silly in this day and age. Why not argue people can walk so why care about running much less driving. It don’t think we will ever regress in our hunger for automation and avoid tasks. It is also a safety issue.  I predict again that in our lifetime human drivers will not be allowed. 


     
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