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    What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Hi All,

    I just got my advertisers' copy of the February, 2004, Automobile magazine (a month late!) which has the Carrera GT review by Jerry Seinfeld.

    In the review, he says; "... Porsche's patented new carbon fiber resin process used for the body panels so they don't break down and literally melt over time. Like some other carbon fiber supercars, whose names I won't mention: take a wild guess."

    I am not aware of any longevity issues with carbon fiber body panels in general. Does anybody know anything about this?

    What about any Porsche patents in this particular area of technology?

    Doesn't the C-GT share a supplier of carbon fiber with the Enzo?

    Wazzup in general wid dis?

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    I'm certainly no expert, but hasn't CF been used under pretty stressful conditions (heat and stress) in racing applications. It's kind of a strange comment unless different CF recipes were used for different applications. ????

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    doncapecod said:
    I'm certainly no expert, but hasn't CF been used under pretty stressful conditions (heat and stress) in racing applications. It's kind of a strange comment unless different CF recipes were used for different applications. ????



    Not to mention intense use in the aviation industry in perhaps the most stressful conditions possible.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Yep, carbon fibre tubs for the Enzo and the CGT are made by the same company, which is why Porsche had to wait for the 399 Enzo tubs to be completed to start CGT prod. I can't remember the name of the company itself but I'm sure CF or RC know.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    The name of the company is ATR and it is located in Italy.
    The quality standards of Porsche is much more stringent than those of Ferrari since all carbon fiber parts and their finish has to have the quality and longevity that Porsche is famous for.
    Bare in mind that the Carrera GT has undergone the same test program as all Porsche cars, both the extreme cold and heat test program.
    The remark that Jerry made probably has something to do with the paint application technique and the finish of the carbon fiber since heat is known to make the finish of the carbon fiber look different over time.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Based on your reply one can assume that Porsche according to your information has the more durable and reliable body.

    Consider a couple of points. First, Jerry Seinfeld has admitted he was paid to write and publish the article. Second, the information he received was hand fed to him by Porsche who are marketing aggressively to sell the remaining several hundred cars. Finally, the frame of the CGT is plastic (not alloy like the Enzo) and several magazines have commented that the car will have serious repair problems.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Nick, you clearly don`t know what you are talking about here.
    First of all I wasn`t making these remarks based on what Jerry said.

    The monoqoque in both the Enzo and the CGT is made of Carbon fiber.
    The engine frame in the Enzo is made of aluminium,and as a world first (with a patent I might add)is the engine frame in CGT made of Carbon fiber.
    The repair process of the enzo is the same as the CGT.
    If the monoqoque is damaged it has to be sent to the factory and I can assure you that the same goes for the Enzo.
    The same repair process goes for the Enzo when carbon fiber parts is damaged as for the CGT.


    Nick,you might be a lawyer but this jury can`t be turned away from the facts.
    The verdict has been handed out and there is no possibility to appeal.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    CF said:
    Nick,you might be a lawyer but this jury can`t be turned away from the facts.
    The verdict has been handed out and there is no possibility to appeal.



    this is the barrister talking!

    If I remember well, also the F50 has the engine frame in carbon fiber ?

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Actually not,in the F50 the engine was bolted directly to the monoqoque chassi.
    Because of the vibration and noise that transplants inside the cockpit, Porsche as well as Ferrari decided that their cars needed an engine frame instead for the CGT and the Enzo.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    I am sure you know a lot more about the car than I do. However magazine writers on more than one occasion have alluded to the difference in construction of the engine subframe between the CGT and other cars with the monocoque composition.

    The difference is the CGT subframe is constructed out of CFP (carbon-fiber-PLASTIC!!!). Magazines use term alloy to describe the other cars subframes and clearly indicate it is more preferable than CFP.

    CF keep your day job.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    First, Jerry Seinfeld has admitted he was paid to write and publish the article.



    Nick, my man, ...... paid? Yes, of course, but paid by whom?

    Are you saying he was paid by Porsche? Surely not.

    How about paid by Automobile magazine? Just like Don Sherman, Mark Gillies, Joe Lorio and Jean Jennings get paid by Automobile magazine for their stories?

    What on earth has getting paid by the magazine in which an article is published got to do with the price of eggs in China?


    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    The access Porsche allowed JS was unprecedented in riding and DRIVING the car. Clearly the information provided to him came from Porsche. Paid can take many forms.

    CF, do you still believe bonding with plastic is superior in strength and durability over bonding with an alloy?

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    nberry said:CF, do you still believe bonding with plastic is superior in strength and durability over bonding with an alloy?



    Nick, since you repeatedly keep saying otherwise, I would like to benefit from this knowledge of yours on the matter that brings you to that firm objective conclusion:. What are all the advantages and disadvantages of using plastic vs alloy in engine frames of modern supercars? as well as decribing more especifically what is reffered to as "plastic" and "alloy"?

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    All I know is that it is going to cost some money to fix this Enzo

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    It is true that Porsche opted to save weight by going with the lighter plastic. The payback is the structure according to two magazine is is weaker compared to the other cars bonded with alloy (a substance composed of two or more metals or of metal and nonmetal) if struck from the rear.

    What I find interesting is the chassis of the CGT is identical to the Enzo and yet JS in his article (undoubtly fed by Porsche) claims the CGT chassis is superior to the others. This gratutious and untrue remark is an indication to what extent Porsche through its shills are hyping this car.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Thats what I thought... you have no clue.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    This gratutious and untrue remark is an indication to what extent Porsche through its shills are hyping this car.



    WOW!

    Isn't it interesting to see how the guilty always try to make the other guy seem like the offender.

    Praise be to Ferraristas everywhere

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The access Porsche allowed JS was unprecedented in riding and DRIVING the car. Clearly the information provided to him came from Porsche.



    You've got to be kidding.

    All automotive magazines had the opportunity for their writers to drive the car. You've got a lot of nerve trying to tell Automobile magazine that their writer is not up to the job and should have been excluded from the press driving events.

    Clearly EVERY writer that attended the press briefings received their information from the Porsche press handlers.

    What about normal life so eludes your grasp?

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    CF, do you still believe bonding with plastic is superior in strength and durability over bonding with an alloy?



    So now you're a mechanical engineer with a specialty in vibration fatigue, too?

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    And you have no answer. Stick to motorcycles.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    CF, do you still believe bonding with plastic is superior in strength and durability over bonding with an alloy?



    So now you're a mechanical engineer with a specialty in vibration fatigue, too?



    or maybe and orthopedist with a specialty in stress fracture from repetetive microtrauma

    Suggested readings for Nick...

    http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/090301.html

    Quote:
    Porsche designed the most carbon fiber-intensive chassis in the world. The passenger box portion is fashioned from carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP) and integrates the windshield frame and roll bar for maximum rigidity. (The Carrera GT is an open top car but it has better torsional stiffness than the closed 911.) The CFRP is made up of an upper and lower layer of carbon fiber that sandwiches a honeycomb layer of aluminum or a resin-impregnated material called Nomex, which is widely used in aircraft and spacecraft. The rear subframe which houses the engine and is bolted onto the passenger box also uses CFRP, but it features a heat-resistant honeycomb and a special resin in the matrix that can withstand the heat generated by the engine without deforming. (In a gentle jab at archrival Ferrari, Porsche engineers point out that the subframe of their competitor's supercar the Enzo is merely constructed of welded aluminum.)



    http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/articles/carreragt_ps.asp

    Quote:
    n its 'Best of What's New' awards, the magazine 'Popular Science' has given the 450 kW (612 bhp), 330 kph Porsche the 'Grand Prize' in the 'Cars' category.

    Critical acclaim as best innovation of the year went to the chassis of this supercar



    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=1074

    Quote:
    Initially, studies were done with the chassis made of steel and aluminum, but ultimately carbon-fiber-reinforced plastic (CFP) was selected to meet the weight and stiffness targets suitable for high-performance driving dynamics. The Carrera GT is the first road-going production car to have not only its entire monocoque chassis and exterior panels constructed from CFP, but also its rear subframe that serves as both the engine cradle and as the mounting platform for the suspension. Special attention has been paid to the subframe because of its operating environment near the power unit. As with the rest of the chassis and body, where optimized carbon-fiber weave orientations have been specifically chosen to maximize load-bearing ability and ease of shaping, the complex single-unit CFP subframe also has aluminum honeycomb elements sandwiched in for better heat resistance



    I'll stick to both, sportbikes and sportcars, thanx

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Whatever I may write at the end of the day if I was offered the keys to either an Enzo or the CGT I more than likely take the CGT. The only reason for my hesitation is the oppotunity to flip the Enzo and make a ton of money.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    If you read his article nothing more needs to be said. Unprecedented access!!! One on one with Porsche executives, driving the car and subsequently addressing the engineers...give me a break! Pure baloney you know it; I know and the readers of Automobiles know it.

    That article belongs in the best propaganda by a non writer. Automobile magazine did not look good on this one.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    If you read his article nothing more needs to be said. Unprecedented access!!! One on one with Porsche executives, driving the car and subsequently addressing the engineers...give me a break! Pure baloney you know it; I know and the readers of Automobiles know it.

    That article belongs in the best propaganda by a non writer. Automobile magazine did not look good on this one.



    That's a pretty presumptive pant load you've got there, all right.

    Even I (this means me) had access to engineers from Porsche when I attended the Geneva auto show introduction of the Carrera GT last March. So did everyone else who attended. I had Roland Kussmaul's ear for as long as I liked, and he answered plenty of my dumb as well as tough questions.

    About twenty years ago, I attended a Geneva auto show in the company of Car and Driver magazine (as their event photographer) for a special gathering of English speaking journalists to re-introduce the Audi Sport Quattro as a road car. I experienced first hand what every car company goes through to promote their wares.

    We had dinner with Audi executives of all stripes. As it turned out, I was seated across from the executive engineer in charge of power train development. I had quite a good time discussing the relative merits of various combustion schemes, and so on.

    EVERY magazine staff member from EVERY magazine had exquisite access to anyone and everyone that evening. I didn't get any "unprecedented" access any different from any other staff member. If anything, I was a bit retiring in my demands for information.

    If you had any real knowledge of how press introductions work, you'd be too embarrassed to post here again.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    believe it or not, nick's schtick isn't even playing well over on the ferrari board:

    ferrari guys disagree with nick

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    Consider a couple of points. First, Jerry Seinfeld has admitted he was paid to write and publish the article.



    Not that it matters much at this point, but, elsewhere in that publication it says he was not paid.

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    "Not that it matters much at this point, but, elsewhere in that publication it says he was not paid."

    yes, and given his status as a damn near homeless bum, i'm sure he'd sell out his integrity for the pocket change that autobile paid him!

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    "Not that it matters much at this point, but, elsewhere in that publication it says he was not paid."

    yes, and given his status as a damn near homeless bum, i'm sure he'd sell out his integrity for the pocket change that autobile paid him!




    AHAHAHA, thats a great one, way to go ben,

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    I am not aware of any longevity issues with carbon fiber body panels in general. Does anybody know anything about this?

    Doesn't the C-GT share a supplier of carbon fiber with the Enzo?

    Wazzup in general wid dis?



    Oh boy! This thread has got very long very quickly, and some pretty odd opinions have been expressed. Yeh, I do mean Nick.

    This could be a long night!

    CFC (carbon fiber composite) panels do not so much have longevity issues as potential quality issues. Look at an F40 or F50 built by "... take a wild guess" under neon strip lighting, and you will probably spot an orange peel structure under the paint. This structure will have appeared after a fairly short time, so I don't think its a "longevity" thing.

    I'm guessing that Jerry Seinfeld (hereafter referred to by Nick as "the accused") was trying to say (he would probably admit himself that he is a better comedian than automotive engineering journalist) that Porsche claimed to have conquered these problems. I've never heard of CFC panels - even those made by or for "guess who - literally "breaking down" or literally "literally melting".

    As CF wrote, Porsche shares CFC component suppliers with the Enzo.

    fritz

    Re: What did Jerry Seinfeld mean by this?

    Quote:
    doncapecod said:
    It's kind of a strange comment unless different CF recipes were used for different applications. ????



    It's funny you should say that!
    Different CFC recipes are used for different applications. CFC component manufacture appears to be a mixture of 1 part high tech, 1 part black magic, and - in the case of "take a wild guess" - 3 parts guesswork.
    Depending on the application, the magicians, sorry, engineers, will exactly specify the types of fiber and the types of resin which should be used. They insist that sheets of "prepreg" (sticky goop to you and me) have to be "laid up" in certain directions in a mould to "optimize strength".
    Can you imagine how disillusioned they are when Nick comes along and tells them that they've been wasting their time, and should have used bonded aluminum alloy instead. God, all the years they spent getting degrees in engineering were for nothing!

    fritz

     
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