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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    reginos:

    Many once celebrated marques don't exist anymore. Names like Iso, Marcos, De Tomaso, Jensen, De Lorean, Lotus (still around as a minnow) readily come to my mind. They were once admired and they were rivaling the establishment but they all failed as business enterprises. Even Lamborghini wouldn't exist if it wasn't picked up by Piech.

    It is not so difficult to make a €250.000 car that drives well and enthuses a minority. But it is very hard to sustain in the longer term a healthy business making such cars.

    As to my point above about bought-in components, my implication was that a sportscar manufacturer must make its own engines at least, because the engine is the heart of the sportscar. Buying even the best engine available from a top subcontractor IMO deducts from the integrity of that car manufacturer.

    The important thing is the package and how it thrills the driver, and that McLaren seems to do a great job at, they are not automatic watches where having an in-house movement is a plus since it is more of a jewelry item than a tool, and its not like other makers don't use third party suppliers for transmissions and other components, so its a grey scale not black and white difference, the McLaren F1 was no less epic for using a BMW's V12. Bottom line is, the economic problems McLaren have nothing to do with how good or bad their cars are, its about the global economy and the competition in the market for a smaller newer manufacturer.

    McLarens are not my type of sportcar and was not a fan at all the beginning, but they have won my respect over these years from reading the comments from knowledgeable RT members of their ownership. Would  be a sad day for any sporstcar enthusiast if they disappear IMO.


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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    reginos:

    Many once celebrated marques don't exist anymore. Names like Iso, Marcos, De Tomaso, Jensen, De Lorean, Lotus (still around as a minnow) readily come to my mind. They were once admired and they were rivaling the establishment but they all failed as business enterprises. Even Lamborghini wouldn't exist if it wasn't picked up by Piech.

    It is not so difficult to make a €250.000 car that drives well and enthuses a minority. But it is very hard to sustain in the longer term a healthy business making such cars.

    As to my point above about bought-in components, my implication was that a sportscar manufacturer must make its own engines at least, because the engine is the heart of the sportscar. Buying even the best engine available from a top subcontractor IMO deducts from the integrity of that car manufacturer.

     

    Pagani anyone? Smiley


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Pagani would have loved to be able to make his own engines but he cannot. With a handful of cars produced by a few dozens of employees it is not feasible or viable. A weakness in this otherwise extravagant product in my way of thinking


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:

    Many once celebrated marques don't exist anymore. Names like Iso, Marcos, De Tomaso, Jensen, De Lorean, Lotus (still around as a minnow) readily come to my mind. They were once admired and they were rivaling the establishment but they all failed as business enterprises. Even Lamborghini wouldn't exist if it wasn't picked up by Piech.

    It is not so difficult to make a €250.000 car that drives well and enthuses a minority. But it is very hard to sustain in the longer term a healthy business making such cars.

    As to my point above about bought-in components, my implication was that a sportscar manufacturer must make its own engines at least, because the engine is the heart of the sportscar. Buying even the best engine available from a top subcontractor IMO deducts from the integrity of that car manufacturer.

    The important thing is the package and how it thrills the driver, and that McLaren seems to do a great job at, they are not automatic watches where having an in-house movement is a plus since it is more of a jewelry item than a tool, and its not like other makers don't use third party suppliers for transmissions and other components, so its a grey scale not black and white difference, the McLaren F1 was no less epic for using a BMW's V12. Bottom line is, the economic problems McLaren have nothing to do with how good or bad their cars are, its about the global economy and the competition in the market for a smaller newer manufacturer.

    McLarens are not my type of sportcar and was not a fan at all the beginning, but they have won my respect over these years from reading the comments from knowledgeable RT members of their ownership. Would  be a sad day for any sporstcar enthusiast if they disappear IMO.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

    You make a good analogy about prestigious watches having their in-house movements. If for a watch such a mechanism is so important in order to add prestige, for a very expensive super-performance car IMO to be able to make your own engine is much more paramount.

    At the time of the F1, McLaren were a devoted racing team (also using engines made by others) that wanted to make an one-off supercar, hence the deviation of using a borrowed engine. You cannot be a proper sportscar manufacturer if you cannot make your engines.

    I think that McLaren Automotive have greatly enriched the supersports car scene. The 720S, from what I understand is  very accomplished and the Speedtail is amazing extravagance that takes bravery to make. McLaren, if they survive, could become a kind of  "the thinking man's Ferrari".

     


    --

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    McLaren make some nice cars, I still misses my 12C.

    The last 10 years or so was a boom period for expensive sports cars McLaren certainly was in the right place to take advantage of that.

    They made good enough sports cars to compete, but they got greedy. Initially things were fine and the cheap money was everywhere, they can get away with pumping out a new variant every 18 months or so and not care about retaining the value of their used car market like Ferrari did.

    Buyers didn't quite care too, losing 100k going from 12C to 650? Sure. They just want the latest and greatest. Oh there is a 675? I will take that too. 720? Why not!! Yeah I will grab the 765 also pls.

    Things look rosy on the McLaren's balance sheet for a while, their sales are growing triple digit rate. Somehow everyone there went brain dead and forgot these kind of growth cannot be sustained. Especially not in the 200k bracket. 

    At least they have 'some' common sense to release the 540/570 variants for the lower pricing bracket to keep the growth going. But the problem is that the 12C platform is really good, so even the entry level cars are uncomfortably close in performance with their bread and butter car, the 650 series. There was no point in paying the premium to go for the 650 series. 

    Here comes the 720 variant to maintain the performance distance. But also move the product line even higher in pricing.  It was an amazing automobile by it's own right, so sales figures are satisfactory initially. Buyers still didn't quite care none of the previous models held any value in the re-sale market, money is cheap. 

    They are literally blowing up their own bubble that's waiting to be burst.

    They had their own warning sign years ago. When they released the P1, they couldn't sell out the planned production and had to cut the production target. Even with all the free money, the world isn't big enough to absorb 918 918, 500 LaFerrari and 500 P1, P1 numbers had to be cut down to 375. The McLaren name simply doesn't pull as much as Ferrari and Porsche.

    But even with the lowered production number, the P1 was a fantastic profit bringer to McLaren, rough estimate puts the profit per car at close to a million each. 

    McLaren got a taste of the fat profit from 'limited' production cars and start cranking them out.  First come the 500 675LT, at a much lower price point than the P1, they had no trouble selling those out. Another big fat bucket of money to the balance sheet. How about another 500 675 in Spider version? All gone also. These 1000 cars cost very little over their regular 650 series cars to produced. 

    The strategy of copying Porsche's 911 series, amortizing the same platform to create many variants seems to be working perfectly, even the engine development and gearbox are amortized the same way, from their entry level car al the way to their halo P1.

    They found their cash cow. Or so they think. They had plans to release many many new 'variants' aka new products to fill in the bubble they had created. After all why not? The world is filled with free money and those free money is the air that's inside their bubble. 

    Here comes the Senna. Still sort of on the same platform, but now quite a bit modified from the original one. Word was that the car was initially designed to go racing under the Hypercar rule. When that plan fell through, they copied Porsche again, monetized the incomplete project, like how Porsche did it with the Carrera GT program. 500 was to be made and sold. It was announced that the car was sold out, but in reality, there are these odd car or 2 arriving at dealerships unsold. My own dealer had one of these 'sold' unsold car. earlier.

    Now McLaren factory was suppose to be operated under the build to order model, every car on the line is supposed to be a 'sold' car. That should have been a sound business model. In reality, that isn't the case. A lot of the cars are actually 'sold' to dealers, with an arrangement that payment will only be made when the car is actually sold 'sold'. Not a problem before when everyone and their cousin is spending money. Not anymore.

    Didn't help that their F1 team wasn't doing well, and on top there is no racing yet this year so money isn't coming in from the other arm either.

    There is no easy fix for McLaren. Their product plays in an arena that's sensitive to world economics, it expands and contracts solely based on how the world is doing, they are just toys, it's the first thing people cut when in crunch time.

    They wanted to be Ferrari, be 'exclusive' and can command high prices, but also wanted to be Porsche with the volume. Doesn't work that way. Porsche can do what they do because they have SUVs to subsidize the 'toys'. But then again Porsche's 'toys' aren't playing in that expensive and selective bracket.

    No one can survive selling just sports cars like Ferrari, even they needed to sell a lot of merchandizing and licensing stuff, on top of what the F1 team brings in.

    Their state of the art factory was expensive and haven't been fully paid for yet, and would be too costly to only produce small number of cars, but cutting their expansion ambition and shrink down to a boutique manufacturer might be the only way for them to stay afloat as a sports car only manufacturer. 

    As the saying goes, there are only so many people spending money, if they are buying something else, they are not buying yours. They needed to find ways to make their product attractive in this changing market place or find an alternate source of revenue. Porsche did that successfully, perhaps they needed to copy Porsche again in order to survive. 

     

     

     

     

     

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    There is some irony in these posts, now 5 years almost to the day, since past RT meister Fritz started the thread... with its "winning streak" title.  Maybe whoopsy's post here should be the first in a new thread... end of the winning streak?  yes


    --

    2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2019 Porsche 911 Turbo


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    McLaren did win the battle. They have successfully carved up a spot for themselves in a little over 10 years. Their 720S is pretty much the de facto winner of the best sports car in the world. May not be the most usable or the most practical one, but it is the best from a pure performance point of view.

    But is McLaren winning the war? Or are they the won the battle but lose the war kind of thing?


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    They wanted to be Ferrari, be 'exclusive' and can command high prices, but also wanted to be Porsche with the volume. Doesn't work that way. Porsche can do what they do because they have SUVs to subsidize the 'toys'. But then again Porsche's 'toys' aren't playing in that expensive and selective bracket.

    PAG is now reaching a point which is utterly ridiculous in term of pricing. Some 911s were more than 300K...they are doing the same as McLaren for that perspective - duplicate models at crazy high price and pump as many as possible. The difference is the marketing and the brand history - not sustainable now.

    The SUV which save them not so long ago is now priced at incredible level - not sustainable now.

    They will all have to change to adapt to the new era which is in front of us or they will all disappear. It takes a lot of time to build a highly profitable business which is very optimized but extremely sensitive and weak to small changes.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Some very special 911s might be over €300.000 but you could buy a very fast for the real world and perfectly usable day in day out Carrera S for €125.000. The bread and butter 911 is still a bargain amongst performance cars given the abilities, longevity, heritage/badge. It also blends very well with the social environment even during times of economic recession.

    I bought my last 911. ten years ago and it is still like new in every respect and very fast and satisfying to drive. I would have been into my second or third BMW or Mercedes-Benz if I decided at the time to spend less money.

    I would never spend extra to buy a Porsche SUV but the Panamera is a special car in its class. Even now you notice an early Panamera but you never give a second glance  to a S-Class or BMW 7. IMO the Panamera is only second to the Bentleys in terms of presence.

    Moreover, Porsche has the VW Group as back up which in turn has the German State as a potential support due its significance.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Carlos from Spain:

    Would be such a shame if McLaren goes, they have put pressure on the other makers to give more in their products and the make great sportscars now as we can see from the reviews from owners here. 

    I do not want McLaren to go, no way. McLaren is the only player in the sports car game who really put Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini and Co. under huge pressure. Without McLaren, we would have never seen a GT2 RS or F8 Tributo with the current specs. I am still surprised that Lamborghini didn't react to McLaren, business went too well for them I guess but their main selling product is the Urus. The Huracan is a very nice product at it's price range, the new Evo may be a little bit expensive as well but the Aventador is clearly overpriced, especially considering what you get from McLaren for much less. 

    Bottom line is: As long as McLaren keeps putting pressure on the sports cars brands, there will be more powerful, faster and maybe even innovative sports cars. Without McLaren, Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini would get "lazy" again. 

    Maybe McLaren should offer one model only and concentrate on making different variants of the car.

    720 S Coupe, 720S Spider, 720S AWD, 720S GT3, 720S GT and so on...

    You get the point...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    McLaren did win the battle. They have successfully carved up a spot for themselves in a little over 10 years. Their 720S is pretty much the de facto winner of the best sports car in the world. May not be the most usable or the most practical one, but it is the best from a pure performance point of view.

    No doubt. The 720S shocked the sports car industry. I actually think that the 720S (and maybe the Pista and F8 Tributo) "destroyed" Lamborghini's Aventador sales. With a crappy gearbox and non-competitive power/weight ratio, the Aventador can be a piece of art as much as it wants but people also want to enjoy driving it. The SVJ may be a monster on the Nordschleife but it can't beat the 720S on the Autobahn (we tried) and the 720S is basically 200k less.

    But is McLaren winning the war? Or are they the won the battle but lose the war kind of thing?

    Well, we'll see but the Brexit certainly doesn't help and the upcoming economic crisis may kill them off entirely.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    McLaren did win the battle. They have successfully carved up a spot for themselves in a little over 10 years. Their 720S is pretty much the de facto winner of the best sports car in the world. May not be the most usable or the most practical one, but it is the best from a pure performance point of view.

    But is McLaren winning the war? Or are they the won the battle but lose the war kind of thing?

    Good analogy. They “won” something but at what cost? Do they need an ‘Apple moment’ like when Steve Jobs got fired then came back to save the company - could Ron turn things around? 

    When I went to MTC in Woking for the launch of 12C I spoke with a few engineers there. They are extremely knowledgeable and passionate professionals with decades of expertise from F1 and racing. To hear the cutting of workforce recently was sad, because there are many great people there with experience from the golden era of F1 and engineering excellence. I wonder if shareholders ever spoke with these people...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I would like to mention that if Steve Jobs would have continued to run Apple, I'm not so sure they would be that successful right now. He was a little bit fixated on certain things. Steve Jobs opposed larger displays and other stuff Tim Cook introduced, so maybe Tim Cook isn't really as bad as many think. He doesn't have Steve Jobs' charisma though, which is unfortunate.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    McLaren is not the only British sports car manufacturer short of liquidity... Aston Martin has placed 304 million new shares at 50p each (at an 8.1% discount) to raise £152 million.

    As a reminder, Aston Martin priced its IPO at 1900p (£19) a share in October 2018...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Like McLaren, Aston is another that uses one platform for all their products, but while their VH platform is considered ancient by now, it is actually more flexible than the 12C platform, hard point locations can be changed, hence why they have different wheelbases from the Vantage to the Rapide. 

    They also just developed a new platform for their SUV DBX. It was necessary for them to have a SUV but this virus thing happened, money used to developed the new platform is current sunk in a deep hole that they can't fill in yet.


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Both were thinly capitalized before the crisis and both embarked on very ambitious expansion plans and investment.  They were not prepared for any potential downturn and were overly optimistic.  Jaguar and Land Rover/Range Rover aren’t too much better off financially and Tata has signaled a lack of interest and ability to continue financing the companies.  


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    the-missile:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    McLaren update for Rennteam members... (22 June 2020)  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    Please note that McLaren is in a legal dispute with existing bondholders as the company seeks to raise additional debt secured on its heritage assets, including the group’s collection of F1 racing cars and the Technology Centre in Woking.

    The company has requested a court judgement by 10 July 2020, as it expected to run out of liquidity by 17 July 2020... Smiley

    no worries, McLaren is not alone in the sinking boat...we are going to see this story to keep repeating in the coming months. the unknown parameter is to which extent. Smiley

    I believe this is really a staring down contest between the major share and bond holders.  Its a question of who blinks first and in this case it looks like it has been the shareholders as the Bahraini's will be extending a loan:   https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/53169648  The bank extending the loan is part-owned by Mumtalakat, Bahraini sovereign wealth fund, which is the majority shareholder in McLaren.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Injecting a dose for few more months...is it worth it? 
    You probably also know how Middle East financial situation is at the moment with that oil price roller coaster. 
    I am convinced this story will repeat on McLaren but on others as well. 
     


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    the-missile:

    Injecting a dose for few more months...is it worth it? 
    You probably also know how Middle East financial situation is at the moment with that oil price roller coaster. 
    I am convinced this story will repeat on McLaren but on others as well. 
     

    Mumtalakat / Bahraini has so much invested at this point that even if it costs them a $1 bil. to keep McLaren afloat its worth it if they can get to an IPO in 3-4 years. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SSO.:
    Mumtalakat / Bahraini has so much invested at this point that even if it costs them a $1 bil. to keep McLaren afloat its worth it if they can get to an IPO in 3-4 years. 

    Yes,  they are in way too deep now. One of the toughest things about investing is knowing when to stop. They need to keep financing now even if it is to do a trade sale.... the fabled IPO is a long way off.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    crayphile:
    SSO.:
    Mumtalakat / Bahraini has so much invested at this point that even if it costs them a $1 bil. to keep McLaren afloat its worth it if they can get to an IPO in 3-4 years. 

    Yes,  they are in way too deep now. One of the toughest things about investing is knowing when to stop. They need to keep financing now even if it is to do a trade sale.... the fabled IPO is a long way off.

    The equity is well underwater at this point and the new funding proposed is additional debt, not equity. It will likely be a battle between creditors in a financial restructuring...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    C879B975-9011-4F60-AC8D-771CFAC82347.jpeg

    PDF link: https://investors.mclaren.com/sites/mclaren-ir/files/2020-05/mcLaren_q1_2020_results_presentation.pdf


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    I would like to mention that if Steve Jobs would have continued to run Apple, I'm not so sure they would be that successful right now. He was a little bit fixated on certain things. Steve Jobs opposed larger displays and other stuff Tim Cook introduced, so maybe Tim Cook isn't really as bad as many think. He doesn't have Steve Jobs' charisma though, which is unfortunate.

    high tech companies are different than automotive companies because they need the next big thing to be able to continue. Tim Cook polished the iPhone, it is a great product now but I am not sure if he can find a new product to keep the company alive in the future.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The next big thing could be a foldable iPhone IF they do it right.

    I own both, the Galaxy Fold and the Flip Z and both are fun to use but still not the breakthrough foldable products the world (maybe) has waited for. This could be a real chance here...

    The AR glasses could also be interesting but this is a product which needs to be launched at the “right” time to be successful. Also, the tech needs to be flawless. Not sure Apple (or anyone for that matter) is there yet.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    The next big thing could be a foldable iPhone IF they do it right.

    I own both, the Galaxy Fold and the Flip Z and both are fun to use but still not the breakthrough foldable products the world (maybe) has waited for. This could be a real chance here...

    The AR glasses could also be interesting but this is a product which needs to be launched at the “right” time to be successful. Also, the tech needs to be flawless. Not sure Apple (or anyone for that matter) is there yet.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     

    AR glasses are more desirable than an iPhone with a folding screen.  Apple has already demonstrated one of the key technologies for AR glasses at last week's WWDC with its geospatial fixing of sound for its AirPod Pro.  This combined with a more capable voice recognition software could be a game changer; however, Cook 's tenure as CEO doesn't have a great track record for disruptive innovation.  


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    To be honest, I would be more interested in a foldable iPhone than AR glasses (for now). 

    Foldable in a more innovative way though, not what Samsung and others put on the market already.

    Basically a much larger display area in a smaller form factor. I sometimes need a bigger display for various tasks, the iPhone 11 Pro Max display is just too small for that.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Talking about the strength of the 12C platform:

    105499989_2539206096393084_4002725938579614344_o.jpg

    Yesterday my buddy hydroplaned while passing a semi on the highway, he wasn't even speeding. Spun out, hit the semi, bounced and hit the concrete divider, spun the other way and went off to the ditch off the side of the road and rolled a couple times. 

    He walked away unhurt. 

    And yes, that's a 675LT Spider.

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Good to hear he was unharmed, so you know if he was he on regular tyres or Corsas/Trofeos ?


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    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

    2018 McLaren 720S 

    993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    Talking about the strength of the 12C platform:

    105499989_2539206096393084_4002725938579614344_o.jpg

    Yesterday my buddy hydroplaned while passing a semi on the highway, he wasn't even speeding. Spun out, hit the semi, bounced and hit the concrete divider, spun the other way and went off to the ditch off the side of the road and rolled a couple times. 

    He walked away unhurt. 

    And yes, that's a 675LT Spider.

    It is excellent that the person wasn't hurt kiss

    But should the platform have withstood the shock better than it did? I am not an accident expert and I am not sure I understood your comment.

     


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    My god, that must have been terrifying! Glad to hear your friend is ok. Sad the to see such an amazing car so banged up, it looks like some high impacts there.


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The shell of the McLarens have repeatedly shown to be super safe in case of violent accidents .

    Glad your friend is not hurt. 

    For sure the tires were Trofeo or Cups  or so . I don't understand when people use semi-slicks on cars not used on track ( not saying your friend does not track ) . Using Corsas or 4S makes much more sense on a car used on public roads only.


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


     
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