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    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

     

    08AE0377-5 best.jpg

    Standard Equipment -- GIAC Dyno Room. Smiley

    Once the car was strapped we started the dyno run, which sounds like Smiley a wide open full throttle run in 4th gear with probes on the y pipe (measuring boost) and exhaust (measuring EGT?), and inside the car (connecting to the car's central CPU) to collect a host of parameters, aka "data logging".  I finally got a taste of my own medicine: listening to my car outside of it on full throttle. It was deafeningly, scarry loud. So loud that I had to use fingers to plug my ear in addition to the ear plugs above.

    GIAC, interestingly enough, is directly underneath the path of landing jumbo jets at Orange County's International Airport. I was told this is the only reason their dyno's have been tolerated by neighbors as each sounds and shakes just like a landing jet! The only time that they got a complaint was with a CGT. (Which I guess could mean only one thing:  That CGT is louder than a landing jet. Smiley)

    On the subject of loudness, I was told that strictly from a power gain standpoint, a loud version of an exhaust, like Cargraphic Loud, is preferred over a more quiet version. (But I would most definitely NOT let this influence your decision of which exhaust to get, as I think "correct" sound level is critical to your enjoyment of the car. And please believe me this tune is making ENOUGH power.)

    After each dyno run, the crew would look at a number of curves that flash on computer screen as a result of the dyno (I know what they look at but I will have to take the 5th here.) and rows and rows of data that they had collected from the data log (IAT, etc.). They would then change the tune's parameters to attempt to correct any data or curves that didn't look right. The new tune program was then re-flashed onto the ECU, then another dyno would be run to see the result. Basically they were fine tuning the program to fit the Cargraphic exhaust (This is why I have said a car with a RUF ECU should have a RUF exhaust.).
    It is remarkable to me that Garrett nailed it every single time. Each time he re-wrote the program, the specific problem that had needed correction, was corrected.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

     

    >>>
    The Maha curve puts on ~250NM in 500rpm between 2400rpm and 2900rpm is that not a decently steep brick wall ?
    >>>

    Nope, too wide. Not if you are using the criteria that a torque dyno has to match what I feel, which is a jump over a short instant covering at most 100 rpm.

    Can

    I assure you that is a decent "brick wall" which is basically the turbos spooling up for those ~500rpm then wallop in comes the torque slug which is at its greatest G at peak torque ~3000rpm then it reduces as per the torque curve on the Maha - this is what happens on the road - not what the GIAC dyno shows ie a 4500rpm torque peak - just not right....

    The Porsche curves are specifically from their engine dyno and are full load curves which you won't get from any chassis dyno, especially one which thinks the torque peaks at 4500rpm on a VTG engine Smiley


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    Much thanks Cann !

    So GIAC is based in CA? The place that did your tune that wasnt a dealer then, it was actually at GIAC??? Usually GIAC dealers/installers are just going to install the ECU without the tuning, right?

    I tried to find answers to the above on GIAC's site but it isnt clear. 

    ps: CONGRATS! Sounds awesome.


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    Sigh... Toby, you just couldn't take no for an answer, could you? I thought I asked as nicely as possible?

    You have perfect explanations for everything. The first problem is, I've lost trust. The second problem is, and I am not the only one noticing it -- see Fritz's comments earlier in this thread ("Sorry TB993tt, but your explanation of ignition timing contains too many incorrect assumptions and misunderstandings to be allowed to stand as it is..."), the responses include terms that sound impressive, yet underlying are several serious mis-understandings and lack of technical precision. We have a saying in my profession: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Smiley 

    I love your enthusiasm and some of your posts, but you really should consider putting a warning in your signature "I am not a professional; above post may be a half-truth." SmileyKidding... Ok, half kidding. There is a reason the tuners don't respond to you Toby. The bet is  they think you know about a little bit of everything, but nothing adequately, leading to misunderstandings & assumptions, just like what Fritz said. 

    I don't believe in criticizing cars based on dynos but if you want to, could you please start another thread and post your dyno? On that thread I promise I will join and play the game, picking apart any dyno, my own, yours, everything! I promisse to go over in nit-picking details like the disturbing drop of torque in your dyno in the all important mid band area, the lowly horsepower rating at 4000 rpm, how you need an engine dyno to confirm and if true, either the Maha dyno is wrong or you need to return this tune regardless of how the car drives.  LOL. Just yanking your chain.  I also will be interested in pre and post PBOX times and the pre and post  torque curves (I saw only one torque curve in the dyno? Never mind! I didn't ask that. Another thread, another thread, Smiley  I will ask.).
    But please, do start another thread.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    Sorry Can but I am with Toby on this one.  Dynamic tuning based on chassis dyno outputs makes me physically cringe...


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    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    Alex_997TT:

    Sorry Can but I am with Toby on this one.  Dynamic tuning based on chassis dyno outputs makes me physically cringe...

     

    Still no new thread? Smiley Alex, we really weren't talking about this, but, no apology needed and indeed an excellent point. I assume you mean it's terrible for GIAC to tune the car without driving?

    Have you ever criticized someone, then later find out you were missing critical  part of the "story" and indeed had mis-fired? Please keep that in mind when you are following this thread. Every time you criticize, please make sure you know the whole story, or if I have presented the whole story. And... remember we are amateurs, even if we think we know the whole story, we still don't know the whole story. Smiley The point of view presented here is from an amateur -- me, and there are things GIAC does behind the scenes that I don't even know and understand enough to talk about, so don't make assumption on what GIAC does based on what I write.

    Now back to your excellent point. Here are the different ways of tuning from that I know:

    1. Buying a pre-package tune, done on cars similar to yours, but not yours. This is what you did.
    2. Buying a pre-package deal, with before and after dyno's. And fine tuning on chassis dyno with actual data logging. This is what I had.
    3. Developing the car with actual street testing. This is what the tuners and racing teams do on developing the program. Among other things, I know they data log the car to make sure the parameters match the chassis dyno.

    So how are they different?

    1. The problem here is that there are variations between car, and exhausts. First you have to assume they develop the car using your exact TUV exhaust (did they?). Second, each engine is different; for example, isn't it true your car never had boost to 1.2 bar max? My car doesn't have that problem, and maybe neither does the RS Tuning car. So... without before and after dyno's, without actual data logging, you really don't know what the tune is doing to your car. It is obviously doing very well, but it may not be as good as could be.

    2. This is not as good as 3, but IMO is better than 1. Dyno with actual data logging makes sure that the parameters and responses are within expected ranges, for the particular car.
    So... you don't need to cringe; I am doing fine. Smiley
    For example, I don't know what exactly Toby's dyno represents, pre or post tune and which ECU tune (RS Tuning), but the dyno has a bad torque response in the critical 3000-4000 range (I've never seen a curve where the torque is dropping so fast in this range and I don't necessarily agree with Toby's explanation.), and if a tune, the horsepower rating seems awful at 4000 rpm compared to RUF. This program could have been developed using hundreds of hours at the track and my conclusion would be the same: It is not optimized for this car, and I don't think a good tuner doing custom tuning will release a car with that kind of dyno.

    3. Yes, if I have an oil well.

    Having said all that, what I really think is, dyno is only part of the equation. More useful to me as pre and post comparison, and not a scale. It's not something like a bathroom scale to measure absolute number since it's so easily manipulated.

    For amateurs like us, and for anyone new to this, IMO, there are 2 tests that are more important than anything else:
    1. Subjective test. If the car drives fine and you like it. That's the bottom line.
    2. Objective,: 60-130 or 100-200 times, or some agreed upon times.
    Only if interested, see 1.
    3. Reliability. For stage 2, I've never seen a problem reported anywhere.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    STRADALE:

    Much thanks Cann !

    So GIAC is based in CA? The place that did your tune that wasnt a dealer then, it was actually at GIAC??? Usually GIAC dealers/installers are just going to install the ECU without the tuning, right?

    I tried to find answers to the above on GIAC's site but it isnt clear. 

    ps: CONGRATS! Sounds awesome.


    Thanks Gregg. GIAC is based in Irvine. They don't do retail sale so yes, you need to go through a dealer. The dealer will install a program without a custom tune. GIAC liked to collect data on my car, and that's the only reason for the custom tune.
    For where you are, if you don't mind some driving, I really like AWE. They are the part and tune dealer for eclou's GIAC-AWE car here  (still running as daily driver I think).

    A minor point that I didn't stress: In retrospect, I really like the fact that GIAC is sold by a Porsche dealer. I don't know exactly what level of approval there is by PAG but it definitely is reassuring.

    I wasn't planning to discuss the next point yet, but for me, there is one aspect of GIAC that makes it my overwhelming favorite: The flashloader. It works exactly as advertised: One button push and you are totally back to stock behavior.
    Very few people have discussed this at length, but for me, there is a thing called "Lexus" index, and the stock car has better Lexus index. Smiley A tuned car, even one as daily-drive friendly as GIAC, changes the character of the car, and makes it less a GT, more a sports car, moving towards F430 for example. Things come up to you very fast and you have to pay attention. The car just seems like it's going downhill, all the time! Smiley
    When I am in traffic, or when I take long casual drives with my wife, I have some preference for using stock setting, for a better Lexus index. IMO, for anyone who uses the car as daily driver, this feature is a huge advantage.

    The second thing about the Flashloader, for us Porsche nuts, is that it allows you to compare. I absolutely, absolutely love this feature. You do need some time for the DME to adapt I believe, but it is an amazing way to learn,  to make sure that your car is "better" with the tune, and that there is no problem compared to stock.
    Together with a full refund offer, this shows the confidence they have: They dare you to compare tune to stock.

    Before I decided to tune, one of my fears was what if I like stock sometimes and they've completely erased the stock program? This is part of the reason why I used a spare ECU. The flashloader is a wonderful security blanket in this aspect.

    BTW, you might not need the race program (pure, non-mixed, 100 octane race gas), or valet (reduced power), or kill (can't turn on car). I have little use for them. I thought I would need the race program, but there is enough power without using race gas, even in Normal mode, which is where I am most of the time.

    So yes the recommendation stays, big, big, time. Smiley

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    cannga:

    Sigh... Toby, you just couldn't take no for an answer, could you? I thought I asked as nicely as possible?

     

    You have perfect explanations for everything. The first problem is, I've lost trust. The second problem is, and I am not the only one noticing it -- see Fritz's comments earlier in this thread ("Sorry TB993tt, but your explanation of ignition timing contains too many incorrect assumptions and misunderstandings to be allowed to stand as it is..."), the responses include terms that sound impressive, yet underlying are several serious mis-understandings and lack of technical precision. We have a saying in my profession: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Smiley 

    I love your enthusiasm and some of your posts, but you really should consider putting a warning in your signature "I am not a professional; above post may be a half-truth." SmileyKidding... Ok, half kidding. There is a reason the tuners don't respond to you Toby. The bet is  they think you know about a little bit of everything, but nothing adequately, leading to misunderstandings & assumptions, just like what Fritz said. 

    I don't believe in criticizing cars based on dynos but if you want to, could you please start another thread and post your dyno? On that thread I promise I will join and play the game, picking apart any dyno, my own, yours, everything! I promisse to go over in nit-picking details like the disturbing drop of torque in your dyno in the all important mid band area, the lowly horsepower rating at 4000 rpm, how you need an engine dyno to confirm and if true, either the Maha dyno is wrong or you need to return this tune regardless of how the car drives.  LOL. Just yanking your chain.  I also will be interested in pre and post PBOX times and the pre and post  torque curves (I saw only one torque curve in the dyno? Never mind! I didn't ask that. Another thread, another thread, Smiley  I will ask.).
    But please, do start another thread.

     


     

    Can

    This is ABSOLUTELY the right thread to be discussing this stuff ! You are sharing your experience of having your car "mapped" and posting the charts given to you saying in your opinion why you have the best etc, I am simply asking pertinent questions about the charts you posted not being accurate.

    Fritz gave me a nice lesson in using correct terminology for which I am grateful but please Smiley  I don't think you have been "around" for very long ! I am the dork who has supped the cool aid over the years, I have bought the wonder 650hp US turbos which actually produced 470hp when I paid to have it tested on an engine dyno - the snake oil machine is alive and well and I love talking about it, many "tuners" do not - My pal in the UK with his EVOMS 730hp/750ftlb 997tt (verified on the same brand dyno as yours with lovely smooth curves) which has a horrible power delivery and accelerates like a 590hp car !!

    I am not "critisizing" your dyno and you don't have to tit for tat back at my Maha - I know why my Maha is like that (and you are right it is because it needs ECU tuning - it is running free-er flowing exhaust on standard ECU tuning) but the Maha is THE best chassis dyno available (especially Manthey's set up) with its own setting for Porsche turbo engines - FACT is that set of curves YOU posted show a peak torque at 4500rpm when clearly a VTG engine produces peak torque around 3000rpm so how can it represent anything meaningful there is no need for  "serious mis-understandings and lack of technical precision"  it is a simple thing to seeSmiley

    You said this to Alex

    Now back to your excellent point. Here are the different ways of tuning from that I know:

    1. Buying a pre-package tune, done on cars similar to yours, but not yours. This is what you did.
    2. Buying a pre-package deal, with before and after dyno's. And fine tuning on chassis dyno with actual data logging. This is what I had.
    3. Developing the car with actual street testing. This is what the tuners and racing teams do on developing the program. Among other things, I know they data log the car to make sure the parameters match the chassis dyno.

    This explains a lot...... you missed out the only true way of tuning, the way manufacturers and top race teams do it - yup a $600K engine dyno and a set up suitable for turbo engines........ 

    I am not just being a "keyboard warrior" here and do have an ongoing interest in this stuff, over recent months I have been toying with who to use for the ECU tuning on my GT2. Frankly anyone using a dyno which gives the peak torque 1500rpm away from where it is is a non starter but I seriously looked at a guy in Germany who uses a Maha for mapping. By all accounts he is very good and relatively cheap, but the more I research my "little knowledge"  always steers me back to engine dyno produced offerings, they are a little more expensive but these are Porsches not VWs Smiley

    Edit:

    Could you just ask them the question about the peak torque not being where the dyno shows - I am genuinely interested in the answerSmiley


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    >>>>you are right it is because it needs ECU tuning - it is running free-er flowing exhaust on standard ECU tuning) but the Maha

    Again: "you are right, but... so so and so". I am disappointed that in this open forum where information is freely exchanged, you've chosen to criticize EVOMS and many others, but elected not to talk about this very significant flaw on your own dyno until now. This came up only after I had pointed it out.

    BTW, we have not exactly agreed that your dyno is the correct way to represent the jump at 3000.

    Where did I say I have the best tune!? Another example of the lack of precision and misunderstanding. Sorry but I'll have to ignore you from now on Toby. (First time I've done this on any forum.) You might have great knowledge, but also suffer from "serious misunderstanding"  Smiley , and I simply can't trust what you write anymore.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    Can,

    Toby is making very rational observations here and it seems you are taking this too personally. 

    I am glad you are enjoying the tuning experience but as this is an 'open' forum there are lots of people reading these threads thinking your enjoyment level must be directly related to the quality of product you are getting. That may indeed be the case (and I really hope for your sake it is) however there seem to be some worrying discrepancies that even an amateur eye can spot.

    I too cannot understand why the GIAC dyno output doesn't show any deviation from stock power until after 3000 rpm.  This is not a case of 'this dyno' vs 'that dyno'...you can see it plainly on the one graph.

    The other thing I wanted to point out is that 60-120mph etc run comparisons still do not tell the while story.  All the tuning power could be just right at the end of the rev range and in a hard acceleration run through the gears you probably wouldn't ever drop below 5000 rpm.  So such runs hide what the car is like in the lower revs.  Having good power lower down is what the Turbo is all about, otherwise we might as well all be driving GT3's....

     


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    cannga:

    >>>>you are right it is because it needs ECU tuning - it is running free-er flowing exhaust on standard ECU tuning) but the Maha

    Again: "you are right, but... so so and so". I am disappointed that in this open forum where information is freely exchanged, you've chosen to criticize EVOMS and many others, but elected not to talk about this very significant flaw on your own dyno until now. This came up only after I had pointed it out.

    BTW, we have not exactly agreed that your dyno is the correct way to represent the jump at 3000.

    Where did I say I have the best tune!? Another example of the lack of precision and misunderstanding. Sorry but I'll have to ignore you from now on Toby. (First time I've done this on any forum.) You might have great knowledge, but also suffer from "serious misunderstanding"  Smiley , and I simply can't trust what you write anymore.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

    Can

    I really hope you don't put me on "ignore" - surely the ultimate forum insultSmiley

    I did talk briefly about my dodgy torque curve in the thread below, I have nothing to hide and like to pick holes in all tuners - trust me RS Tuning have plenty of flaws, ask RC on here ! - I think you are taking all this far too personally but if you write your experiences as you have done surely you would expect some questioning if the stuff you present (curves) look loopy ?  BTW where did I say you said you had "the best tune" seem to have missed that Smiley

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/997-gt2-gt3-forum/479533-997gt2-560ps-700nm.html


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    Alex_997TT:

    ....I am glad you are enjoying the tuning experience but as this is an 'open' forum there are lots of people reading these threads thinking your enjoyment level must be directly related to the quality of product you are getting.

    I too cannot understand why the GIAC dyno output doesn't show any deviation from stock power until after 3000 rpm.  This is not a case of 'this dyno' vs 'that dyno'...you can see it plainly on the one graph.

     

    I will discuss all questions from anyone, as long as in my mind posters don't go in circles and criticize without outstanding professional knowledge. Anyone is more than welcome to respond to "he whose name shalll not be mentionedSmiley (really kidding here, not taunting at all) ; just won't be me. No offense taken or intended. And nothing personal; Smiley I appreciate Toby's enthusiasm and experience.

    As far as the dyno. You are correct, the matching is not exact, but as we have been discussing, a. each of the tuner seems to have a different point (RUF at 2400 for example), and b. it's my opinion that it should be sharp rise through 3000, not a peak at 3000 (in other words, Mahi curve is not right either, and that's where we've been going in circles). Since RUF is of course among the very best gold standards, then the next question is why does even RUF miss? And I have not asked, but I have a theory (ie. take with a grain of salt).

    Say there are 10 parameters on the data log that the tuner is looking at. Before the tune, among many other things they do that I don't know about, I know they data-log the car actually driving on streets, then set the dyno so that the above parameters when the car is on the dyno, match the streets'.
    It's probable that those 10 parameters do NOT include the having a rise at 3000. In other words, the dyno could be manipulated to read anything, but settings that do give a rise at 3000, perhaps, will give erroneous readings on these other more important parameters.

    Again for those who are new to this, IMO dyno is more useful as a tool for comparison before and after, less useful as a scale. It's not a bathroom scale that gives you a reading like your weight, since each dyno gives very different absolute numbers and could be manipulated to do so. Every time someone tells you, my "dyno reads 1000 hp," your immediate next questions would be:
    1. Subjectively, how it drives.
    2. Objectively (if you are interested in power, I am not), what are the before and after PBOX times. You could use different times as Alex mentioned. But the bottom line for objective test is PBOX times.

    During my dyno, the guys were looking at that curve and this curve, not happy with this drop here, not happy with the horsepower there. I really was thinking "WTF, as if I could feel that squiggle on the torque. Get that thing down and let me drive the damn thing." Smiley
    I really am talking about dyno because "someone" Smiley dragged me into it. I think very little of it; it's not a perfect measuring device by any stretch of imagination.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    I wish Fritz would chip in with something substantial


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    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    cannga:
    STRADALE:

    Much thanks Cann !

    So GIAC is based in CA? The place that did your tune that wasnt a dealer then, it was actually at GIAC??? Usually GIAC dealers/installers are just going to install the ECU without the tuning, right?

    I tried to find answers to the above on GIAC's site but it isnt clear. 

    ps: CONGRATS! Sounds awesome.


    Thanks Gregg. GIAC is based in Irvine. They don't do retail sale so yes, you need to go through a dealer. The dealer will install a program without a custom tune. GIAC liked to collect data on my car, and that's the only reason for the custom tune.
    For where you are, if you don't mind some driving, I really like AWE. They are the part and tune dealer for eclou's GIAC-AWE car here  (still running as daily driver I think).

    A minor point that I didn't stress: In retrospect, I really like the fact that GIAC is sold by a Porsche dealer. I don't know exactly what level of approval there is by PAG but it definitely is reassuring.

    I wasn't planning to discuss the next point yet, but for me, there is one aspect of GIAC that makes it my overwhelming favorite: The flashloader. It works exactly as advertised: One button push and you are totally back to stock behavior.
    Very few people have discussed this at length, but for me, there is a thing called "Lexus" index, and the stock car has better Lexus index. Smiley A tuned car, even one as daily-drive friendly as GIAC, changes the character of the car, and makes it less a GT, more a sports car, moving towards F430 for example. Things come up to you very fast and you have to pay attention. The car just seems like it's going downhill, all the time! Smiley
    When I am in traffic, or when I take long casual drives with my wife, I have some preference for using stock setting, for a better Lexus index. IMO, for anyone who uses the car as daily driver, this feature is a huge advantage.

    The second thing about the Flashloader, for us Porsche nuts, is that it allows you to compare. I absolutely, absolutely love this feature. You do need some time for the DME to adapt I believe, but it is an amazing way to learn,  to make sure that your car is "better" with the tune, and that there is no problem compared to stock.
    Together with a full refund offer, this shows the confidence they have: They dare you to compare tune to stock.

    Before I decided to tune, one of my fears was what if I like stock sometimes and they've completely erased the stock program? This is part of the reason why I used a spare ECU. The flashloader is a wonderful security blanket in this aspect.

    BTW, you might not need the race program (pure, non-mixed, 100 octane race gas), or valet (reduced power), or kill (can't turn on car). I have little use for them. I thought I would need the race program, but there is enough power without using race gas, even in Normal mode, which is where I am most of the time.

    So yes the recommendation stays, big, big, time. Smiley

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

     

    Cann,

    Really appreciate the response, thanks!

    I'm preparing for a trip w/ my kids so busy but I have questions about the flashloader & some others.  I'll post back when I get back. 

    Best Regards,

    Gregg


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    STRADALE:

    Cann,

    Really appreciate the response, thanks!

    I'm preparing for a trip w/ my kids so busy but I have questions about the flashloader & some others.  I'll post back when I get back. 

    Best Regards,

    Gregg

    Gregg,

    You are welcome. The timing is good;  I too will be gone on vacation for the next few weeks. Wishing you & your family a safe trip. Smiley

    There is a certain gentle Lexus charm Smiley to the stock program that I wouldn't want to be without in certain situations. Of the 3 mods that I've done so far, exhaust + bilstein + ecu, too bad only the ecu has this ability to turn back to stock. If somehow Bilstein could do this (it can't), then it would be a perfect world! I don't think other GIAC owners have played much with the Flashloader, but the picky & compulsive me wouldn't want to be without it. At least, just the idea of having stock mode still there makes me feel good. LOL

    In my car, I velcro the Flashloader to the steering column such that at any given time, one simple push and I am back to stock.  Now the car actually has 4 total modes: Stock Normal, Stock Sport, GIAC Normal, GIAC Sport (otherwise known as insanity incarnate). I am in heaven Smiley going through all the modes to study the different behaviors.

    I could now see that the modding of my car is coming towards an end; the "triad" is done. It's been a fun adventure.

    08AE0444-2.jpg

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Hey Can

    I saw your dyno sheet post on 6bling and reproduce it below - looks like they have got that ole Mustang dyno loading at the low end Smiley

    I am not even going to start on WTF is happening at the top end, that looks like a "tune" which has seriously got it wrong in the mid range leading to big timing pull at the top end, but hey its a chassis dyno so as long as it feels good on the road you're fine Smiley


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    TB993tt:

    Hey Can

    I saw your dyno sheet post on 6bling and reproduce it below - looks like they have got that ole Mustang dyno loading at the low end Smiley

    I am not even going to start on WTF is happening at the top end, that looks like a "tune" which has seriously got it wrong in the mid range leading to big timing pull at the top end, but hey its a chassis dyno so as long as it feels good on the road you're fine Smiley

    Interesting


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    OMG, this thread is taking on a very weird turn. Feel like I am being stalked; like Eunice is sending Reuters after me.    Man I was just trying to keep a low profile and hoped to sneak my dyno through. Please relax guys, the moment you have to use "WTF" to describe a fellow hobbyist's dyno, you've lost the argument. And you still won't get an answer from me. Sorry.

    For anyone else Smiley interested, please find the full thread here, with some discussion of dyno: 6speedonline thread on my GIAC tune with dyno .


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    cannga:

    OMG, this thread is taking on a very weird turn. Feel like I am being stalked; like Eunice is sending Reuters after me.    Man I was just trying to keep a low profile and hoped to sneak my dyno through. Please relax guys, the moment you have to use "WTF" to describe a fellow hobbyist's dyno, you've lost the argument. And you still won't get an answer from me. Sorry.

    For anyone else Smiley interested, please find the full thread here, with some discussion of dyno: 6speedonline thread on my GIAC tune with dyno .

     

    You said it my friend, the people who tuned to give you that top end are definately in the "hobbyists" category Smiley

     


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Cant see dyno...


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    GT, I think you might need to sign in to see it here. I have some comments on the dyno:

    The car was dyno'ed multiple times at stock and then during the fine tuning. The following is the final single run after the final tune and I believe the last of about 6-8 dyno's or so. There might be plan for more dyno runs in the future for confirmation (dyno's of same car could be very different from each other and we basically had time for a single one only), perhaps with better cooling & condition (more time, DME with more complete "adaptation" (?), etc.).

    With respect to horsepower, as mentioned previously the gain is on the low end (of GIAC Stage 2 cars), 423 hp (versus another GIAC car, with GMG exhaust, with 440 hp for example). Although the max value percentage gain is 8% only (versus the normal 10-12%), the area under curve is good. At 4500 rpm for example there is a nice 28% increase in gain. As having been pointed out, with higher Octane gas than my 91, and much better cooling when car is traveling at 125 mph instead of being stationary on chassis dyno, I expect result to be better. By how much, I don't know. Regardeless, enough already & I don't plan to quibble GIAC for another 17 hp. LOL

    With respect to torque, the gain is a healthy 17%: 498 versus 426 stock. The torque curve is very nice and has a wide & excellent & flat plateau from around 3300 to 4300. Area under curve is outstanding. GIAC is happy with the torque gain and shape of the curve.

    So what does all this means? Can't tell other than that subjectively the car drives like a torpedo with linear power delivery (based on my limited comparison experience).
    Objectively, I do not have 60-130 mph time measured by PBOX, which as many would agree is the bottom line, not any horsepower claim or the chassis dyno.
    As have been mentioned several times on this thread, the chassis dyno is an imperfect measuring device because it can't reproduce real world conditions and could be easily manipulated.

    I think one will need an intercooler, as have been suggested by many who have done it more, if horsepower is the name of the game. Personally, I will say "no mas" since car feels so fast already. I am having some trouble adjusting to how fast I come up to other cars ahead of me plus the thing feels like it's going downhill all the time.
    With stock intercooler as in my car, and temperature too high as car is stationary, it's actually a good sign that the car pulls back at the high end. Self protection at work with the GIAC tune.

    997ttMainDyno.jpg

     

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    I just don't have the heart to further point out the obvious any more and spoil your enjoyment Cannga.  So this will be my last post on the matter. 

    I just wish you could come to the UK and I could take you out in my car; I am sure the difference in smoothness would astound you based on what is printed above - it did for me even going from a Porsche factory mapping.  It was THE single defining thing of my powerkit, not the additional power.  Even the MPG increased!

    Incidentially, I went on a Porsche Experience day today with the Mrs and drove painfully slow Carreras and GT3's around a track all day.  Afterwards I had a GT2 tail-gating me going out of the grounds.  Once we got onto a little dual carriageway section I gave it the beans for about 5 secs and he was seriously struggling to keep up!  Such is the greatness under my right foot....


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Caanga  seriously my friend this dyno does not look right.. EIther there is sth wrong with the measurement (ie dyno figures) or something wrong with the tune itself.. I have done around 4 stages and 30 dyno runs in my car in many different configurations and i can assure you that this cannot be right.. Power plateaus at 4600rpm, this is not a diesel engine!!

    You maybe getting the impression that the car is fast since it has a decent midrange but you are missing a lot of power at the top end! If the reason for that power loss in higher rpm is knock or fuel related this actually stresses the engine as well! 

    If I were you i would go to these guys and tell them WTF fix my car asap!


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Is it possible to get the cargraphic ECU tune in the USA? If not how about RUF?


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Can, put some race gas in it and dyno again. This is not right even with 91 octane you should peak at 6000 rpms.

    Did the car feel like the clutch was slipping during the dyno? It happened to me a long time ago when I tried to dyno mine on a MAHA when it was stage 2 and the stock clutch slipped at peak torque and we never saw a peak hp.

    btw, I have a couple of Proto intercoolers for sale with your name on...lol


    --

    2007 997 TT Protomotive

    2005 F430

     


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Alex_997TT:

    I just don't have the heart to further point out the obvious any more and spoil your enjoyment Cannga.  So this will be my last post on the matter. 

    I just wish you could come to the UK and I could take you out in my car; I am sure the difference in smoothness would astound you based on what is printed above - it did for me even going from a Porsche factory mapping.  It was THE single defining thing of my powerkit, not the additional power.  Even the MPG increased!

    Incidentially, I went on a Porsche Experience day today with the Mrs and drove painfully slow Carreras and GT3's around a track all day.  Afterwards I had a GT2 tail-gating me going out of the grounds.  Once we got onto a little dual carriageway section I gave it the beans for about 5 secs and he was seriously struggling to keep up!  Such is the greatness under my right foot....


    1. Your opinion by definition has very little effect on how I like my car; your concern therefore is not necessary. But thanks anyway. Smiley  I personally think it's been a reasonable discussion, with you, but it's your right to give last words and stop posting here. 

    2. And I assure you if that day of car testing ever arises I will give my unbiased opinion. It's possible that your car is much better than mine, but so far there is no proof that I know of.

    3. GT2 struggling to keep up with Stage 2 Turbo? Ok, possible. But how do we know it's not a bad driver on the other car, that his wife was not yelling at him to slow down, that he's not on a cell phone? Story like this is nice, but really, the only way to prove your OWN car's greatness is, PBOX times. Anecdotal stories are fun and useless.

    >>>>
    Even the MPG increased!
    >>>>

    4. OK Alex I am going to bold face this, not to taunt, but only to emphasize the danger of unbridled enthusiasm for a particularly brand, and how useless these discussions have become as a result. You are telling me your car now is so fast that a GT2 has trouble keeping up, that it supposedly has 544 horsepower, and it has better MPG than the old car. I won't ask you any question since you already gave words that this were your last post on this thread.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    GT, thanks but won't be necessary. I thought it was timing pull from heat but AAHTT's explanation makes a lot of sense. If so it would be a good news bad news combination! Smiley I don't need more horsepower in LA traffic.

    Trip, RUF to me is the gold standard and the cost is 20k. A couple of people here have it, check this thread. RS Tuning is not available in the US. Either one may not be a good idea in Californis because of the bad gas we have here.

    Anthony buddy, thanks a bunch, the voice of a true expert. So car in Stage 2 could make so much power that clutch could slip? Perhaps this is a result of the custom tuning since I've never heard of GIAC Stage 2 clutch slipping before? (I don't think eclou's did.) Truly a good news bad news combination since I don't want to replace the clutch and I have enough power as is.
    By that final run I had been up for 35 hours straight so the goal was just to run the dyno and to get out. I will try to get a retest with dyno or punch it on street when I have a chance. Perhaps I have not noticed anything because I drive mostly in Normal Mode.
    Regarding the intercooler , ha ha ha. S-T-A-Y A-W-A-Y F-R-O-M M-E, please? Smiley Smiley

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    cannga:


    1. Your opinion by definition has very little effect on how I like my car; your concern therefore is not necessary. But thanks anyway. Smiley  I personally think it's been a reasonable discussion, with you, but it's your right to give last words and stop posting here.

    OK so last post on your stuff, not on mine

    3. GT2 struggling to keep up with Stage 2 Turbo? Ok, possible. But how do we know it's not a bad driver on the other car, that his wife was not yelling at him to slow down, that he's not on a cell phone? Story like this is nice, but really, the only way to prove your OWN car's greatness is, PBOX times. Anecdotal stories are fun and useless.

    Firstly there were 2 guys in the GT2, so no wives (apart from in mine - who did incidentally did tell me to slow down!).  Secondly he was right up my back bumper before I started accelerating and when we got to the dual carriageway actually pulled out into the overtaking lane to pass me.  It was at this point I put my foot down (in non-sport mode, so limited to 1.0 bar boost).  He then sat in the overtaking lane, slowly falling back.  Not scientific I know, as he probably wasn't in sport mode either, but I am sure I surprised the hell out of him as it should have been a no contest win for the GT2.

    >>>>
    Even the MPG increased!
    >>>>

    4. OK Alex I am going to bold face this, not to taunt, but only to emphasize the danger of unbridled enthusiasm for a particularly brand, and how useless these discussions have become as a result. You are telling me your car now is so fast that a GT2 has trouble keeping up, that it supposedly has 544 horsepower, and it has better MPG than the old car. I won't ask you any question since you already gave words that this were your last post on this thread.

    I am not saying that if I use all 544 horses constantly then I get better fuel economy.  What I am saying is that if I drive the car the same as I did before (first 2500 from factory) from point A to point B on normal public roads then the car is so much smoother that my average is now better.  This to me is a great measure of 'tuning'...

     


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Caanga please do consider getting some ICs.. The stock units are pretty average and the difference in reliability, response and power will cause a huge grin on your face! And the best thing is that this one mod that will really have no downside.. Only upside. And I am talking out of personal experience, not just reading articles, magazines etc..

    Re: Time for ECU Tuning

    Ok everyone has got your "last words" in? Everyone is kinda happy?  Thanks for your participation; I've learned from the posts. Now I think it's time to move on to another topic, like, er.... replacement clutch?

    My LAST WORDS will be for GT:

    Frankly, I think you are CRAZY. LOL ....Obviously, in the good sense of the word. Despite of all my "talk" I am actually very moderate in my modification goal and don't think I will be heading your way anytime soon.
    Kidding aside, what you talk about seems very interesting. If you feel like it, tell me more about the "IC." Is this the same as what professional racing teams do? Getting rid of  the stock ECU and start from scratch? Who does the work and what have you accomplished so far? You could even post your ... ahem dyno if you feel up to it. 


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


     
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