Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 991 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Ya think? Yeah, it really helps if you know the reviewer very well, at least his writing and his point of view. Waiting to read the Chris Harris review. Smiley


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carrageous:

    Ya think? Yeah, it really helps if you know the reviewer very well, at least his writing and his point of view. Waiting to read the Chris Harris review. Smiley

    Oh, absolutley. One of the articles on the 991 wasted a whole paragraph going on about how the steering is numb, but then at the end they said it was spectacular.

    I'm also looking forward to the Harris review. What I really want to see though is a video review done by a British journalist. They always have the best way of describing their immediate sensations through a video. A Top Gear review would be ideal.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    So the new mid-engined, fly-by-wire 991 seems to be getting some great reviews...indecision

    Still...happy...to...be...picking...up..my...new...997 GTS...in...2...weeks...time...!laugh

    No, really I am...  Although I feel like a bit of a classic car enthusiast already..!!!

    Great that the new one is getting such great reviews and even the steering issue isn't exactly being slated...  Just some gentle "hedging of bets" by the first-up motoring hacks before the general concensus gains traction..?yes

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    When the 997 was launched most of the UK motoring press hedged their bets by proclaiming the variable rack was lower on feel but more relaxing and still accurate enough.  For a long time Car Magazine criticised all 997's for lacking steering feel (even the GT3) but eventually they all started praising Porsche for retaining wonderful steering feel. 

    Utter gibberish.  I'm with Grant - the steering feel on a 997.2 is not great.  My 987S is nowhere near as nice to steer as my previous 986S (although its better in every other department) and I really fear Porsche are heading in the wrong direction on this aspect.

    As several of the reviews have hinted, the question is will the rest of the car really be good enough to put  up with the new steering?  I did for the 986-987 change but there comes a point when you buy a sports car for the love of the driving experience, not the lap time at expense of all else. 

    I haven't driven the 991 yet so I'll reserve judgement but its no coincidence that I was perusing the Lotus website today for the first time in years.

     


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Budster:

    So the new mid-engined, fly-by-wire 991 seems to be getting some great reviews...indecision

    Still...happy...to...be...picking...up..my...new...997 GTS...in...2...weeks...time...!laugh

    No, really I am...  Although I feel like a bit of a classic car enthusiast already..!!!

    Great that the new one is getting such great reviews and even the steering issue isn't exactly being slated...  Just some gentle "hedging of bets" by the first-up motoring hacks before the general concensus gains traction..?yes

     

    I don't blame you. I'm not sure but I think I'd rather have a 997 over the 991 at this point. Just because it's faster doesn't mean it's better! But given the choice, I think the 993 trumps all!


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    First Drive: 2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S Coupe

    (11 November 2011)

    The big existential question that Porsche surely asked itself when developing the new generation of 911 is: what is it that makes a car a Porsche 911? This is a question without a right or wrong answer -- it's a matter of perspective.

    One suspects the marketing folks would say that it's a car with a curved roof line and round headlights, with a flat-six engine mounted behind the rear wheels and the ignition key located to the left of the steering wheel. A 911 is exquisitely well crafted and offers supercar performance with everyday usability, uncommon reliability, and unmatched fuel economy. A broad product portfolio-there were twenty-three variants of the last 911, not including transmission choice-helps it find home after expensive home, and a half-century history of constant evolution and racing provides a historical backdrop unlike any other sports car.

    There's another view, of course -- the one from the driver's seat. From that perspective, the 911 is a pure sports car; a one-of-a-kind combination of modern-car refinement with old-school involvement, as engaging at 15 mph as it is stressful at 150. That it can achieve what supercars can achieve is the triumph of brilliant engineering overcoming a seemingly insurmountable design flaw: it is outspokenly and unabashedly rear-engined. From the parking spot to the flat-out Autobahn run, it never stops reminding its driver of the caged animal behind the rear wheels. The steering wheel bounds about nervously in the driver's hands, constantly reacting to the rear-mounted animal's every motion. The front end bobs up and down quickly -- a reminder that there's no engine there to dampen the suspension's motions -- and the front wheels follow every dip and groove and camber change, doing everything they can to get another inch further from the scary engine in back. All the while, the rear of the 911 dances around, bouncing left and right, as the animal tries to free itself from its mounts.

    In the past, both of these views did indeed define a Porsche 911. Beginning February 4, 2012, that's no longer the case. The day the 991-series 911 goes on sale, the marketing view becomes the only view. The 991 is, from that view, the best 911 Porsche has ever made.

    As an everyday car capable of reality-bending performance, the two 2012 911 Carrera S models we drove (one with a manual transmission, one with a PDK dual-clutch automatic) easily trump the previous 911. Indeed, Porsche boasts that the S is capable of lapping the Nuerburgring Nordschleife in seven minutes, forty seconds, a full fourteen seconds faster than before. That's as fast as the old GT3. Using the PDK's launch control function, if you're devoid of mechanical sympathy, means you can ride along as the Carrera S catapults itself to 60 mph in as little as 3.9 seconds. (Or 4.3 seconds with the manual transmission.) And unlike previous 911s, this happens with no wheel hop at all.

    Even the base model 911 Carrera puts down scorching numbers, according to its makers: the dash to 60 happens between 4.2 and 4.6 short seconds. And that despite a smaller engine than the outgoing 911: down 0.2 liters, the 3.4-liter flat-six makes five more hp (for a total of 350) and matches the old engine's 287 lb-ft of torque. The bump in specific output comes thanks to higher revs -- the rev limiter doesn't wake up until 7800 rpm. Torque peak moves up 1200 notches higher on the tachometer (to 5600 rpm) and the horsepower peak has been bumped by 900, to 7400 rpm.

    The new Carrera S keeps its 3.8-liter displacement, but receives the same high-rpm breathing help and experiences the same rev bumps to make 15 more horsepower and 15 more lb-ft of torque than before, for totals of 400 and 325, respectively.

    Either engine can be combined with a new seven-speed dual-clutch automatic or a seven-speed manual, the latter an industry first. Surprisingly, the seven-speed stick isn't at all confusing to use: a clever solenioid-based lockout prevents access to the seventh-gear gate unless you've already engaged fifth or sixth. And thanks to a strong spring that returns the shifter positively to the three-four gate, multiple-gear downshifts out of seventh gear are no problem. And those downshifts are surprisingly unnecessary: it's a long gear (70 mph is approximately 2000 rpm) but the 3.8's ample low-end torque means it'll climb significant grades at highway speeds.

    As before, the PDK transmission provides seamless acceleration and follows driver's commands obediently via steering-wheel mounted shift paddles. The paddles are conventionally operated, meaning a tug at the right paddle requests an upshift; the left paddle is used for downshifts. Our pre-production PDK occasionally clunked into gear, but we suspect all the bugs will be sorted by the time the 911 hits dealers. No matter how good the PDK, our first choice for any 911 would be the stick shift, anyway: it's a pleasure to use, with light, accurate throws. And though the long-travel pedal is heavy and offset too far to the right, the clutch itself engages progressively and positively. Add in immediate throttle response, and, like the 997, the calibration of the manual transmission is one of the best parts of this Porsche.

    The reason for a new set of transmissions is that the 911 has a revised powertrain layout. The rear wheels have been positioned approximately three inches closer to the engine, helping allow a nearly four-inch wheelbase stretch. The longer wheelbase was created for a number of reasons, including better ride quality, additional passenger compartment space, and for something Porsche's engineers referred to as "future powertrain needs." That could, of course, include a hybrid system. Remember, 911 platforms are used for a long time: the 997 was a small evolution of the 996's chassis, which was used for a total of thirteen model years. And with strict fuel economy regulations looming, Porsche might have no choice but to build a hybrid 911 in the future.

    Don't worry about that for the time being.

    Smartly, Porsche didn't extend the 991's body as much as it did the wheelbase (length is up by only an inch), meaning shorter overhangs. That means the 996/997's propensity to scrape the front end everywhere is greatly diminished. For the record, it also means that the 911's famously unusable rear seats remain famously unusable. At least for human-sized beings.

    It's clear that reducing weight was a key mission in the development of the 991, and that extends from the use of aluminum in the body to tiny things like the front cooling fans, which are now 2 lb lighter. Overall, the 911 lost something like 90 lb. That, of course, combined with more power, a wider track, and a lower roof is a recipe for better performance.

    And we haven't gotten to the spicy stuff yet: twenty-inch wheels, active engine mounts, active roll stabilization and adaptive suspension are all options-and they were all on the 911 we drove. To call the new car a quantum leap in vehicle dynamics is an understatement. The ride is smoother than many luxury cars, but there are no wasted body motions. Body roll has been all but completely eliminated, and brake dive and squat are fractions of what they were before. The 991 will understeer if you ask it to; it'll oversteer if you ask it to, but if left to its own devices, it remains neutral. This is something no 911 has ever done.

    Grade changes, camber changes, throttle changes-nothing upsets the 991. It turns in with the immediacy of a mid-engine car, puts power down with the traction of a four-wheel-drive car, and reacts with the gentleness of a front-engine, rear-wheel drive car. Quick directional changes induce no drama, and never, ever, does the steering feel nervous.

    And this is exactly why the purists are going to be upset.

    The 911 doesn't drive like other 911s. You never, ever feel the engine's weight move the back end around. The front end doesn't bob, heave, or wander. And when you're cruising down a road, the steering wheel doesn't dance in your hand.

    Oh, the steering is perfectly accurate, and its weighting is just like old 911's. Driven in anger, it starts to transmit information about the road surface -- but whereas the last 911's steering screamed at you, this one barely whispers.

    What's to blame? Electric power steering. Porsche says that the EPS system weighs about as much as the old hydraulic system, and that it contributes to a one-third-MPG fuel savings. Clearly that's not sufficient reason to abandon the old hydraulic pump and lines, especially since the 911 was already the lightest and most fuel efficient vehicle in its class.

    Poke the engineers long enough, and they'll admit that they received complaints about the 997's steering being too nervous. It transmitted too much, they say. Specifically, too much vibration and too many "disruptions." Those disruptions -- to the vehicle's path, presumably -- are bad engineering. They are old-fashioned and needed to be removed. Or at least that's what the engineers believed.

    Uh oh, now we're having a Lost In Translation moment. What the engineers are calling "bad engineering" we refer to as "on-center steering feel." Not only do we think of it as a good thing, it was indeed the best thing about the last 911, at least when it was driven on the road. No other steering on earth felt so alive, so connected. Frankly, the steering was the reason we loved the 997 so much-and it set the 911 apart from all of its competition, especially the Audi R8.

    It turns out that German customers complained about the steering. And we do understand that: the 997 was a nervous scamp at autobahn speeds. You can drive an R8 at 180 mph and not break a sweat-the 997's tail wagged back and forth constantly, and you felt every millimeter of movement in the steering wheel.

    We don't have autobahns in the U.S. and after Porsche got through a huge presentation explaining that the U.S. market is "easily the most important market for the 911," we were pretty surprised that they engineered out our very favorite part of the 911.

    There are plenty of other cars on the road that can cruise at 70 mph effortlessly -- the world didn't need another one of those. At our pathetically slow highway speeds, we need everything we can get to make driving fun -- crazy steering feel, an engaging manual transmission, and a car that's perhaps a little bit flawed.

    If you've ever driven a Porsche 911, you'll immediately know that the 991 is different. In quantifiable terms, it's leaps and bounds better than any previous 911. It sounds even better, it rides even better, it feels even better, it's even more comfortable, better equipped, and it's far better looking. But if you adored the drive in that 911 because it was a car unlike any other -- because it constantly reminded you that it wanted to kill you, even if it never was going to -- you'll know why the 911 is a better car, but it's not a better 911.

    2012 Porsche 911 Carrera S Coupe - First Drive - Automobile

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Poke the engineers long enough, and they'll admit that they received complaints about the 997's steering being too nervous. It transmitted too much, they say. Specifically, too much vibration and too many "disruptions." Those disruptions -- to the vehicle's path, presumably -- are bad engineering. They are old-fashioned and needed to be removed. Or at least that's what the engineers believed.

    Uh oh, now we're having a Lost In Translation moment. What the engineers are calling "bad engineering" we refer to as "on-center steering feel." Not only do we think of it as a good thing, it was indeed the best thing about the last 911, at least when it was driven on the road. No other steering on earth felt so alive, so connected. Frankly, the steering was the reason we loved the 997 so much-and it set the 911 apart from all of its competition, especially the Audi R8.

    OK, I'm starting to get worried, this steering feel they described on the previous 911 versions is one of the things I loved most about the 911, and unique to the 911, they better not have dialed that out with the new system.

     


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carlos, I have read at least 5 reviews that say the steering is a problem.  I pray that they go back to hydraulic for the GT cars.  I already thought the 997.2 Carrera steering was getting numb, but this is a much bigger issue now.

    Here is a recent article:

    "Electromechanical Power Steering, Dynamic Chassis Control

    If you paid any attention at all to the 2012 911's official unveiling, you noticed it now features electromechanical power steering. For a car that is considered by many to be the benchmark for sports car steering feel, going to electric-assist power steering is a risky bet at best; the Internet is brimful of rants against the vague and vicious vagaries of the technology.

    Fortunately, the 991 avoids most of the electrical steering pitfalls, though it doesn't avoid all of them. Feel, on the whole, is very good--for electromechanical steering. Compared to a typical electric solution, the 2012 911's steering is in an entirely different class. Compared to truly top-flight hydraulic steering, however, it leaves some on the table.

    Saving fuel by not powering the steering pump when traveling straight is a great idea until you turn the wheel--then you're met with a tiny lag and surge of assist that creates what effectively feels like a notch at the 12 o'clock position. There's even a tiny bit of tolerance for steering angle before the electric assist kicks in, making for a noticeably different feel just off-center, too.

    To compound the matter, Porsche offers an optional low-speed assist treatment that lightens steering even further at very low (parking lot) speeds, to make maneuvering easier. While I didn't see any reason to opt for the extra boost, I can see how some people might prefer it.

    In other words, around town, the 991 steers much less like a knife-edged sports car and much more like a typical eco-conscious commuter."

    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1068461_2012-porsche-911-first-drive

    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Exactly why if you're in the market for a 911, go for the 993 while they're still out there!

    I've recently realised that I'm almost forcing myself to like the 991, but then I realized, pretty much everything in the world today is going to crap, so why force myself to like it? I still like the front end design very much, but the 993 and 997 are where it's at (design wise, mechanically, and emotionally)!


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I think this right here might be the best and most honest review so far. Strangely, they don't mention how the new steering feels at all, they just say that driving the manual on the back roads bruised their cheekbones because of what an emotional and enjoyable driving experience it was. I think that is exactly what the 911 is about, so if this is true, Porsche nailed it.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/11/2012-porsche-911-carrera-s-first-drive-review/


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Grant:

    Carlos, I have read at least 5 reviews that say the steering is a problem.  I pray that they go back to hydraulic for the GT cars.  I already thought the 997.2 Carrera steering was getting numb, but this is a much bigger issue now.

    Exactly, it becoming a comom theme in the first reviews. I absolutely love the steering of my 997.1-20mm, its direct, kart-like, weighed on the heavy side, and very quick responding with no lag whatsoever from 12 o'clock and viceversa, its very quick to tell you every little movement of the car, the weight trasnfer's, the rubbing of the tires with the asfalt as you approach the limit, the telegraphing of the yaw of the car in the corners by the weight its giving you, etc. Its an absolute joy that I still admire.

    Some say that is too nervous? its the opposite for me, numbness is what makes me nervous. Every other 997 I have tested was still good but not the same already (997.1 PASM was so-so, 997.2 PASM got worse, 997TT got even worse, etc), though I have not tested a 997GT3 which I suppose its even better than my 997S.1-20mm.

    I cannot wait to test the 991 and see for myself if its just pre-release reporters clitches as they copy each other, or if its indeed true Smiley If its worse than any 997 the we have a problem. I understand though that it may not be the same for everyone, I realise I may be a bit on the anal side about a car's steering and others may not give it that much importance, so it may be a problem only for a few.


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I hear the RS 3.8 has the best steering... In the world.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carrara:

    I hear the RS 3.8 has the best steering... In the world.

    If I were a betting man, that model is were I would put my money on for that prize... if only I could test one Smiley


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Just check out Chris Harris' review of the RS 4.0. It's only about a minute long, and he keeps everything very simple, but it's his emotion that makes this such a fantastic review. He really lets you know just how it feels to drive.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ_dfB2HrNw&feature=player_embedded


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I'm getting nervous about the steering on the 991 too. Might grab myself a 3.8RS (or 4.0 if one pops up!) while I still can and forget the 991 for now. The nervous steering is one reason I love all my 997s thus far and even more so on my GT3.

    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carrara:

    I hear the RS 3.8 has the best steering... In the world.

    It's one of the best today, but the old manual racks in the pre-1990 911 models have much more feel.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    The comparison of the 991 steering (which I believe no one of us has driven anyway) will be done with the new car's rivals not with any previous models. No one or very few,  will buy a 7 year old 997.1 or a 90s 911 for example, instead of the new 991 because the steering might feel little better, if at all.

    Electromechanical PAS seems to be the new way across the motor industry.  When hydraulic PAS started in sportscars some 15 years ago it was also knocked by some.

    Even if for argument's sake the new steering is somewhat "friendlier", Porsche will gain many more customers than they would lose. Because traditional Porsche fans won't be able to find a better steering anywhere else among the new models on the market and new customers coming from more mainstream brands will appreciate the "easier" feel, which nevertheless won't be at the expense of precision.

    As to the option for extra assistance at low speeds (parameter steering), I agree that in the objective to aid parking, it also destroys the feel when you go slow on a tight winding road for example. I have it on the Audi Q5, it is a good parking assistance but I wouldn't imagine it on a 911. However, many women and non-expert drivers will find this option very useful. So, why would Porsche lose these customers to BMW or Mercedes?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    No doubt Clarkson will suggest that the boys at Langley Virginia get more "feel" from guiding a drone over Afganistan.  (If he gets into the right 911 this time).  

    I hope the Hamster does the review!

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    GR:
     I'm with Grant - the steering feel on a 997.2 is not great.  My 987S is nowhere near as nice to steer as my previous 986S (although its better in every other department) and I really fear Porsche are heading in the wrong direction on this aspect.

    There is a  loss of steering feel from 997.1 to 997.2    They made it more ' comfortable' , and lost some of the exellent feed back that was on 997.1


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carlos from Spain:
    Grant:

    Carlos, I have read at least 5 reviews that say the steering is a problem.  I pray that they go back to hydraulic for the GT cars.  I already thought the 997.2 Carrera steering was getting numb, but this is a much bigger issue now.

    Exactly, it becoming a comom theme in the first reviews. I absolutely love the steering of my 997.1-20mm, its direct, kart-like, weighed on the heavy side, and very quick responding with no lag whatsoever from 12 o'clock and viceversa, its very quick to tell you every little movement of the car, the weight trasnfer's, the rubbing of the tires with the asfalt as you approach the limit, the telegraphing of the yaw of the car in the corners by the weight its giving you, etc. Its an absolute joy that I still admire.

    Some say that is too nervous? its the opposite for me, numbness is what makes me nervous. Every other 997 I have tested was still good but not the same already (997.1 PASM was so-so, 997.2 PASM got worse, 997TT got even worse, etc), though I have not tested a 997GT3 which I suppose its even better than my 997S.1-20mm.

    I cannot wait to test the 991 and see for myself if its just pre-release reporters clitches as they copy each other, or if its indeed true Smiley If its worse than any 997 the we have a problem. I understand though that it may not be the same for everyone, I realise I may be a bit on the anal side about a car's steering and others may not give it that much importance, so it may be a problem only for a few.


    --

    I totally agree with all of you. The steering feel is/was one of my prefered feature on the 911 and made the ride so special and unique, as is/was the dancing back .

    Reading all these reviews confirms more and more that I might be the kind of customer that needs to move to the GT3 , in order to keep waht I like about the 911.

    As I mentioned before, the only regret I had when changing my 997.1 to a 997.2 was some of the loss of steering feedback. ( it did not get bad, but it was better before ) Obviously most of the customers do not want that. They want to feel safe and stable while driving their car from the house to the office, or to the week end mountain/beach house .

    The new GT3 will probabvly be ' easyer ' then the 997.2 GT3, not that the last one was hard or difficult, but evolution goes this way, and finaly making it a very good , and exiting, daily driver . ( that's my wish )


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carrara:

    Just check out Chris Harris' review of the RS 4.0. It's only about a minute long, and he keeps everything very simple, but it's his emotion that makes this such a fantastic review. He really lets you know just how it feels to drive.

    Smiley SmileySmiley

    Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0 Review - evo Car Of The Year 2011

    The last hurrah for the motorsport derived ‘Metzger’ flat six and indeed the entire 997-generation Porsche 911 dynasty, the RS 4.0 was never NOT going to be in the evo Car Of The Year 2011 line-up unless Porsche had taken complete leave of their senses by tuning it to understeer like an anvil in a shopping trolley. (It doesn’t, by the way.) Instead, the company has taken last year’s eCoTY winner, the already admirable 3.8-litre RS, and made it faster, sharper and harder. The details on the spec sheet - the racing crank, the carbon front wings, the lightweight battery - all give little reminders that Porsche isn’t mucking about with this one and the resolutely old skool manual gearchange gives a good indication this isn’t a car for the weak or lazy. Oh dear no.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ_dfB2HrNw&hd=1

     

    Porsche Cayman R - evo Car Of The Year 2011

    When Porsche slapped the R badged on this slightly lighter, slightly faster but in no way extreme and race honed version of the Cayman it made many evo staff very angry. But not, it must be said, angry enough to disqualify the R from eCoTY because behind the badge is an intelligently honed version of what is already Porsche’s most sweetly balanced car.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6nzdpYD4Ck&hd=1

    http://twitter.com/harrismonkey

    Thanks to Chris Harris!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Regarding the steering... All press-cars are probably equipped with the option "Power Steering Plus"  which according to the specs is "Speed-dependent power sterring. Reduces steering forces when manoeuvring and at low speeds".

    Wonder if it would make any difference to not tick this option box. Seems like this option is the one that makes the steering lighter at low speeds <50km/h and more stiff at higher speeds.

    Thoughts?


    --

    On Order: 991 C2S Basalt Black/Black - PDK, PSE, SPASM, SportChrono, etc.
    Sold: 997.2 C2S Meteor Grey/Black - PDK, PSE, LSD, SportChrono, etc.
    Sold: 997.1 C2S Black/Black - PSE, PCCB, -20mm/LSD, Short-shifter, SportChrono, etc..



    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Gnil:

    I totally agree with all of you. The steering feel is/was one of my prefered feature on the 911 and made the ride so special and unique, as is/was the dancing back .

    Reading all these reviews confirms more and more that I might be the kind of customer that needs to move to the GT3 , in order to keep waht I like about the 911.

    As I mentioned before, the only regret I had when changing my 997.1 to a 997.2 was some of the loss of steering feedback. ( it did not get bad, but it was better before ) Obviously most of the customers do not want that. They want to feel safe and stable while driving their car from the house to the office, or to the week end mountain/beach house .

    The new GT3 will probabvly be ' easyer ' then the 997.2 GT3, not that the last one was hard or difficult, but evolution goes this way, and finaly making it a very good , and exiting, daily driver . ( that's my wish )

     

    I think that may be the way to go, I'm sure the GT3 will not make those compromises in steering, while probably being a bit "easier" than the previous gens for daily driving as you say. Unfortunately, I can't do without the rear seats myself Smiley

    Maybe the steering in the CarreraS is OK in the -20mm option, since Porsche knows that those who tick that option are not worried about nervousness in the steering or silly things like that. I believe the car that SportAuto used for the test that they will be publishing in two weeks is a -20mm, so maybe we will know more then.


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carlos from Spain:
     I can't do without the rear seats myself Smiley

    Maybe the steering in the CarreraS is OK in the -20mm option, since Porsche knows that those who tick that option are not worried about nervousness in the steering or silly things like that. I believe the car that SportAuto used for the test that they will be publishing in two weeks is a -20mm, so maybe we will know more then.

    I also need to transport my kids......  Now I can take one on the front seat, but that still leaves the 2 others on the road side . I will have to see.

    On the 997.2 , -20mm option ( S-PASM ) does give a better feel then the regular PASM, but it still looses something aginst the -20mm 997.1

    Yes, it will be very interesting to see what SportAuto says.


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I don't think anyone should panic just yet with regard to the steering. Here is Autocar's first drive review of the 997 in 2004. For a car many on here are praising for steering feel, this review was certainly not glowing about it

    "My only puzzlement concerns the steering. Because the variable-ratio steering is lighter and slightly less direct around the straight-ahead, the immediacy and linearity of responses in that crucial first movement off-centre, taken for granted by longtime 911 drivers, are reduced. This is the biggest change to the steering since the adoption of power assistance on the 964 in 1988 and, at first experience, just as controversial. I spent day one in South Africa confused by the rack’s messages, even admitting to missing the constant joggling of the wheel, a 911 peculiarity for more than 40 years that has finally been eliminated. Initial turn-in seemed slower, less urgent, and I was sawing at the wheel through third-gear sweepers, convincing myself I could feel the rack’s ratio changing. By the end of the second day, after belting the S over the challenging Franschhoek Pass and tapping into the car’s greater agility at the limit, taking advantage of its superior grip and more adjustable handling, I’d come to terms with the new set-up. Everywhere beyond the first 30 degrees of wheel movement the steering is quicker and more precise. Body control is brilliant. The 911 stays flat, linking corners in a series of incisive, flowing movements, the suspension soaking up bumps and surface changes that would upset the previous 911’s poise. Be warned, 996 owners need to accept that the 997 feels different. It took me until the third morning to accept that the changes to the steering truly worked."

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Porsche-911-3.8-Carrera-S/209097/

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Lukas:

    Regarding the steering... All press-cars are probably equipped with the option "Power Steering Plus"  which according to the specs is "Speed-dependent power sterring. Reduces steering forces when manoeuvring and at low speeds".

    Wonder if it would make any difference to not tick this option box. Seems like this option is the one that makes the steering lighter at low speeds <50km/h and more stiff at higher speeds.

    Thoughts?

    I tried the same system on a Mercedes C class, a Q5 and on a Cayenne(not mine). On a heavy car like the Cayenne is a must, on the Q5 it is helpful, for on the spot manouevres when parking. On the downside, the steering stays very light when cornering at relatively lower speeds (e.g hairpins, tight mountain roads, roundabouts etc) and spoils the feel and confidence.

    They should make the system more intelligent so as to understand when low speed doesn't mean parking or  lazy driving. Perhaps it should also take revs and other parameters into account not only speed?

    I drove a Cayenne Turbo with this system on the Porsche track in Leipzig that has some close curves, and it was very bad.

    Personally, I would never choose it for a Carrera. Porsche introduced it to widen the 991 appeal to women or generally people with weaker arms.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    ISUK:

    I don't think anyone should panic just yet with regard to the steering. Here is Autocar's first drive review of the 997 in 2004. For a car many on here are praising for steering feel, this review was certainly not glowing about it

    "My only puzzlement concerns the steering. Because the variable-ratio steering is lighter and slightly less direct around the straight-ahead, the immediacy and linearity of responses in that crucial first movement off-centre, taken for granted by longtime 911 drivers, are reduced. This is the biggest change to the steering since the adoption of power assistance on the 964 in 1988 and, at first experience, just as controversial. I spent day one in South Africa confused by the rack’s messages, even admitting to missing the constant joggling of the wheel, a 911 peculiarity for more than 40 years that has finally been eliminated. Initial turn-in seemed slower, less urgent, and I was sawing at the wheel through third-gear sweepers, convincing myself I could feel the rack’s ratio changing. By the end of the second day, after belting the S over the challenging Franschhoek Pass and tapping into the car’s greater agility at the limit, taking advantage of its superior grip and more adjustable handling, I’d come to terms with the new set-up. Everywhere beyond the first 30 degrees of wheel movement the steering is quicker and more precise. Body control is brilliant. The 911 stays flat, linking corners in a series of incisive, flowing movements, the suspension soaking up bumps and surface changes that would upset the previous 911’s poise. Be warned, 996 owners need to accept that the 997 feels different. It took me until the third morning to accept that the changes to the steering truly worked."

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Porsche-911-3.8-Carrera-S/209097/

     

    Judging by this, it seems that the reviewers are trying to find absolutley all of the bad points and differences in the new car (because it is already so perfect), that they may exaggerate a little bit on certain points. No doubt the steering won't be as good, but I doubt it will be bad.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I don`t believe that a brand like Porsche, with an icon called 911, would put in the market (with many Km/miles and years of testing) a new 991 with a bad steering...

    Maybe less "nervous" but i believe the "feedback" is untouchable...

    We need to wait for "our personal reviews"....


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    ISUK:

    I don't think anyone should panic just yet with regard to the steering. Here is Autocar's first drive review of the 997 in 2004. For a car many on here are praising for steering feel, this review was certainly not glowing about it

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Porsche-911-3.8-Carrera-S/209097/

     

    Brilliant post ISUK! Good catch. One can almost replace the pic, and one wouldnt know the difference between the old article and the new ones!

    HAHA


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 5/18/22 6:36 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    686991 1306
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 10/9/22 4:08 PM
    watt
    320501 1186
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 12/7/22 4:53 PM
    Porker
    217960 1266
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 12/4/22 12:10 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    203278 439
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/6/22 12:37 AM
    WhoopsyM
    186444 580
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/22/22 8:19 PM
    GaussM
    129648 9
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 11/30/22 2:30 PM
    GnilM
    57673 68
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/1/22 10:14 PM
    SSO.
    521663 3954
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 2/1/22 9:49 AM
    RCA
    477279 2655
    Porsche 992 GT3 11/27/22 2:46 AM
    WhoopsyM
    473537 3785
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/30/22 6:31 PM
    Grant
    230633 774
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/7/22 5:03 PM
    WhoopsyM
    230158 1468
    AMG AMG GT R 3/13/22 8:52 PM
    spudgun
    200173 834
    Lambo Aventador and SV 5/20/22 5:24 PM
    Topspeed
    196367 710
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/7/22 10:22 PM
    CGX car nut
    190987 1866
    Porsche GT4RS 11/24/22 3:09 AM
    GnilM
    190612 1193
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 4/19/22 10:08 PM
    Leawood911
    163667 1590
    Others Bugatti Chiron 8/30/22 4:31 PM
    Josef
    160983 525
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/12/22 5:09 PM
    watt
    157078 535
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 2/28/22 7:42 PM
    Topspeed
    143618 409
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 10/6/22 11:48 PM
    DJM48
    140527 501
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 6/7/22 1:20 PM
    Topspeed
    138602 593
    Others Corvette C8 7/18/22 12:40 PM
    WhoopsyM
    137854 443
    Porsche Dave and Gnil @ Nürburgring Nordschleife 7/4/22 10:42 PM
    DaveGordon
    136421 722
    Motor Sp. [2022] Formula 1 12/6/22 8:32 PM
    CGX car nut
    127751 1561
    Others Toyota Yaris GR 4/13/22 8:33 PM
    Grant
    107459 640
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/21/22 8:37 AM
    RCA
    106522 335
    AMG Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 10/24/22 7:42 AM
    RCA
    104249 402
    Ferrari Wandered to the dark side 8/29/22 9:35 AM
    BiTurbo
    79337 418
    Ferrari Ferrari Roma 4/18/22 4:33 PM
    watt
    31670 438
    172 items found, displaying 1 to 30.