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    Re: AMG GT R

    noone1:

    When people start driving on the real roads like they do the ring, maybe it will matter. Last time I checked, you're not allowed to go as fast as you want in most real world corners, nor are you allowed to apex and cross lanes like a mad man.

    If you want real world performance, they should do lap times while staying on their half of the lane and put random police officers to give you tickets that you have to slam on the brakes should you see one up ahead.

    If you want to see real world performance, start letting random people do the tests since 99% of drivers aren't even close to as capable as the testers.

    I guess you are also missing the point of how ring performance is reflective not only of the car's maximum potential on a closed circuit but also on how it feels and behaves on the streets at lower speeds... just like maximum HP and torque is used to judge a sportscar's acceleration and engine performance in the real world even though most of the time the revs are running bellow the limit on the streets. No wonder you still don't get it...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: AMG GT R

    From C&D 

    If there’s one thing that’s not in short supply at AMG, it’s confidence. Tobias Moers, Mercedes-AMG’s chairman and CEO, told us in no uncertain terms to compare the latest version of the brand’s sports car, the GT R, against the Porsche 911 GT3 RS. “Our car is faster,” he said. And when we asked where, the reply was as abrupt as it was unequivocal: “Everywhere.”

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-mercedes-amg-gt-r-first-drive-review


    Re: AMG GT R

    kingjr9000:

    From C&D 

    If there’s one thing that’s not in short supply at AMG, it’s confidence. Tobias Moers, Mercedes-AMG’s chairman and CEO, told us in no uncertain terms to compare the latest version of the brand’s sports car, the GT R, against the Porsche 911 GT3 RS. “Our car is faster,” he said. And when we asked where, the reply was as abrupt as it was unequivocal: “Everywhere.”

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-mercedes-amg-gt-r-first-drive-review

    What he meant was: the prototype on prototype tires is fast - let's wait for the car they finally sell to customers Smiley


    Re: AMG GT R

    MKSGR:
    kingjr9000:

    From C&D 

    If there’s one thing that’s not in short supply at AMG, it’s confidence. Tobias Moers, Mercedes-AMG’s chairman and CEO, told us in no uncertain terms to compare the latest version of the brand’s sports car, the GT R, against the Porsche 911 GT3 RS. “Our car is faster,” he said. And when we asked where, the reply was as abrupt as it was unequivocal: “Everywhere.”

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-mercedes-amg-gt-r-first-drive-review

    What he meant was: the prototype on prototype tires is fast - let's wait for the car they finally sell to customers Smiley

    And the GT3RS with equal HP would leave even the AMG "prototype" in the dust... everywereSmiley...When the similarly powered GT2RS comes out ask the AMG again and watch his confidence go out the window. Don't see why they can compare such cars in that sense, AMG never built GT3RS type cars, they are in another niche.
    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: AMG GT R

    the game has moved on - hence why I believe the NA engines are finished with Porsche -  you cannot compensate that torque difference to a Turbo car with latest tech

    Time for a GT2RS doing 7 min or 7:05 indecision


    Re: AMG GT R

    4trac:
    Lars997:

    how do you like this one? 

    WhatsApp Image 2016-12-12 at 23.45.11.jpeg

    I am sure that this radioactive purple will be the fastest colour for this car. Smiley  Makes Porsche's ultraviolet colour look almost conservative....

    I think the color in combination with those rims is very much 70s"


    Re: AMG GT R

    Carlos from Spain:
    MKSGR:
    kingjr9000:

    From C&D 

    If there’s one thing that’s not in short supply at AMG, it’s confidence. Tobias Moers, Mercedes-AMG’s chairman and CEO, told us in no uncertain terms to compare the latest version of the brand’s sports car, the GT R, against the Porsche 911 GT3 RS. “Our car is faster,” he said. And when we asked where, the reply was as abrupt as it was unequivocal: “Everywhere.”

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-mercedes-amg-gt-r-first-drive-review

    What he meant was: the prototype on prototype tires is fast - let's wait for the car they finally sell to customers Smiley

    And the GT3RS with equal HP would leave even the AMG "prototype" in the dust... everywereSmiley...When the similarly powered GT2RS comes out ask the AMG again and watch his confidence go out the window. Don't see why they can compare such cars in that sense, AMG never built GT3RS type cars, they are in another niche.
    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     

    GT3RS is in the same price league - that´s why he compares it (I suppose).

    Comparing it with the GT2RS is certainly possible but you will have to pay a Boxter S more, these are different price segments. 

    Comparing these cars doesn´t make sense for me. I think that they approach to different user groups. You see it here, long year Porsche drivers are doubting anything from this cars - they will not buy this car. Non-Porsche drivers on the other hand try to justify every statement provided by MB - some of them may buy it.

    The future owners will be happy regardless of how many horses this car has and what special tire they have used to achieve the NBR time. They will tell everyone that they car was faster on NBR then 918 spyder regardless of all other facts or non-facts. 

    Happy wife - happy life. 

     

     


    --

    AM


    Re: AMG GT R

    I guess this is a more philosophical comment on comparing high performance sportscars in general:
    As I see it, these Nordschleife times have absolutely zero practical relevance to 99.99% of the people who buy the cars they test. 
    I agree with @noone, and unless you are able to repeatedly compete against yourself or others on your way to and from work (which I highly doubt any sane person would try), or are a pro or semi-pro driver who actually drives on the Nordschleife, the Nordschleife times are only relevant for building a story, "legacy" or create bragging rights around a car. In other words; emotional selling points for marketing purposes.

    However - since we don´t just buy a car based on it´s technical merits and looks, these times are (clearly) very important. Not as a scientific yardstick, but as a way to convince ourselves that doling out $$$$ for a sportscar makes perfect sense "because tests show I got the fastest/best car", and - let´s be honest - in many cases it´s a way to measure the length of something else angry

    I would bet anything, that my measly Audi would be faster on the Nordschleife than any other production car driven by a regular customer - if you put Tom Kristensen behind the wheel of mine. 
    Remember the classic TopGear episode where Clarkson driving a Jag was humilated by Sabine Schmitz in a van on the Nordschleife? I´m guessing the sales of Jags didn´t go down, nor did the sales of vans go up following that episode, but it goes to show, that these professional Nordschleife tests are only good for entertainment and more importantly; to give customers emotional or pseudo-scientific arguments to allow themselves to purchase a particular car.

    From a purely rational POV, there are close to zero rational reasons to buy a high performance car, especially based on NBR/Nordschleife results. I dunno about you, but 99% of the time I drive my car in the suburbs or congested freeways, and since getting it I have only reached 200 km/h once...for about 5 seconds. Nor have I had any real-world need to use all 400 bhp or cut apexes to save 1/10 of a second going to a client meeting. And as for the elevation differences of the Eiffel mountains? I live in one of the flattest countries in the world, so that doesn´t really help me in any way.
    Nonetheless, I spent hours on end looking at reviews and comparisons, and found myself eating up any test (scientific or not) that helped me sell the car to myself.
    Seeing some pro driver drifting in the snow in Finland looked really cool, I loved seeing the AMG A45 get smoked by an RS3, I love the Quattro rally heritage and I enjoyed the many other examples I could find of "my car" being faster or just "better" than other cars in its segment.
    Of course, it´s all BS - because IRL there are SO many variables and situations to take into account, that comparing my car to any other "comparable" car makes little practical sense. And no professional track test "proving" that my car is better or faster, will make it a better car in the real world. It all comes down to a combination of personal preferences, taste and practical conditions.
    But the reviews, stories, tests and folklore helps me to emotionally sell me on a car, that I already decided on getting.

    I can enjoy sitting in my car, in rush hour traffic, listening to the engine - and ALL the above mentioned tests, stories and legacy combined with the car´s actual technical performance and sound provides me with a great feeling. Most importantly; it makes me feel ok about paying $$$ for a car that I´ll never ever beat any track records with, or win any trophy in.

    And I´m guessing that this feeling is the exact reason why we even have places like Rennteam in the first place: So that we can share, compare and discuss how we FEEL about cars.

    wink


    Re: AMG GT R

    Lars997:

    how do you like this one? 

    WhatsApp Image 2016-12-12 at 23.45.11.jpeg

    Gosh, that´s one ugly car. Yikes!Smiley


    Re: AMG GT R

    Dr. Phil:

    I guess this is a more philosophical comment on comparing high performance sportscars in general:
    As I see it, these Nordschleife times have absolutely zero practical relevance to 99.99% of the people who buy the cars they test. 
    I agree with @noone, and unless you are able to repeatedly compete against yourself or others on your way to and from work (which I highly doubt any sane person would try), or are a pro or semi-pro driver who actually drives on the Nordschleife, the Nordschleife times are only relevant for building a story, "legacy" or create bragging rights around a car. In other words; emotional selling points for marketing purposes.

    However - since we don´t just buy a car based on it´s technical merits and looks, these times are (clearly) very important. Not as a scientific yardstick, but as a way to convince ourselves that doling out $$$$ for a sportscar makes perfect sense "because tests show I got the fastest/best car", and - let´s be honest - in many cases it´s a way to measure the length of something else angry

    I would bet anything, that my measly Audi would be faster on the Nordschleife than any other production car driven by a regular customer - if you put Tom Kristensen behind the wheel of mine. 
    Remember the classic TopGear episode where Clarkson driving a Jag was humilated by Sabine Schmitz in a van on the Nordschleife? I´m guessing the sales of Jags didn´t go down, nor did the sales of vans go up following that episode, but it goes to show, that these professional Nordschleife tests are only good for entertainment and more importantly; to give customers emotional or pseudo-scientific arguments to allow themselves to purchase a particular car.

    From a purely rational POV, there are close to zero rational reasons to buy a high performance car, especially based on NBR/Nordschleife results. I dunno about you, but 99% of the time I drive my car in the suburbs or congested freeways, and since getting it I have only reached 200 km/h once...for about 5 seconds. Nor have I had any real-world need to use all 400 bhp or cut apexes to save 1/10 of a second going to a client meeting. And as for the elevation differences of the Eiffel mountains? I live in one of the flattest countries in the world, so that doesn´t really help me in any way.
    Nonetheless, I spent hours on end looking at reviews and comparisons, and found myself eating up any test (scientific or not) that helped me sell the car to myself.
    Seeing some pro driver drifting in the snow in Finland looked really cool, I loved seeing the AMG A45 get smoked by an RS3, I love the Quattro rally heritage and I enjoyed the many other examples I could find of "my car" being faster or just "better" than other cars in its segment.
    Of course, it´s all BS - because IRL there are SO many variables and situations to take into account, that comparing my car to any other "comparable" car makes little practical sense. And no professional track test "proving" that my car is better or faster, will make it a better car in the real world. It all comes down to a combination of personal preferences, taste and practical conditions.
    But the reviews, stories, tests and folklore helps me to emotionally sell me on a car, that I already decided on getting.

    I can enjoy sitting in my car, in rush hour traffic, listening to the engine - and ALL the above mentioned tests, stories and legacy combined with the car´s actual technical performance and sound provides me with a great feeling. Most importantly; it makes me feel ok about paying $$$ for a car that I´ll never ever beat any track records with, or win any trophy in.

    And I´m guessing that this feeling is the exact reason why we even have places like Rennteam in the first place: So that we can share, compare and discuss how we FEEL about cars.

    wink

    +1 Smiley and one more Smiley

     


    --

    AM


    Re: AMG GT R

    Actually, it is all about emotions in the end I have to admit. Get the car which tickles your senses most because in the end, this is what is important. I was way too numbers focused in the past.

    Also, to be blunt: Lots of driving reviews are often not correct if you talk to owners or read other reviews. It is sometimes amazing how a review can differ from another one. 

    I trust mostly owners because if they love a car, you just "feel" it.

    What I do not like are owners of cars who don't criticize anything. No car is perfect.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: AMG GT R

    The situation changed or maybe it is just me. Ten years ago I have only Porsche cars in my mind. No other brand was attractive to me. Today there are lot of cars I could imagine, not all are true sports cars but I like them. 
    My list is growing and thus I have more choices to choose: Porsche GTx, Panamera and Cayenne, McLaren, Ferrari 488, Audi R8, MB S-Class Coupé or Cabrio, MB GTC/R, MB GLS, Bentayga, .....


    --

    AM


    Re: AMG GT R

    ALDO:

    The situation changed or maybe it is just me. Ten years ago I have only Porsche cars in my mind. No other brand was attractive to me. Today there are lot of cars I could imagine, not all are true sports cars but I like them. 
    My list is growing and thus I have more choices to choose: Porsche GTx, Panamera and Cayenne, McLaren, Ferrari 488, Audi R8, MB S-Class Coupé or Cabrio, MB GTC/R, MB GLS, Bentayga, .....

    Same here, the competition has grown very strong.

    However, I feel very connected to Porsche and I truly hope that at some point, they listen a little bit more to their 3% hardcore supporters as well, not only to their "typical" 97% of customers. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: AMG GT R

    I think that I will have the next years at least one Porsche in my garage - more likely a Panamera turbo rather then a 911 turbo 

     


    --

    AM


    Re: AMG GT R

    Dr. Phil:

    I guess this is a more philosophical comment on comparing high performance sportscars in general:
    As I see it, these Nordschleife times have absolutely zero practical relevance to 99.99% of the people who buy the cars they test. 


    wink

    Two important points to consider (based on my experience):

    - a sports car with a great track performance feels better on normal roads than a car with not so good track performance. The reason is probably that the precision and refinement required to make a car quick on the track can be felt in normal use as well. The other way round works as well: I can do a test drive and tell if the car is likely to produce great lap times.

    - a car that does faster lap times will be faster (on track) in the hands of any reasonably skilled driver than another car with less good track times. I.e. faster lap times mean you also get the faster car for yourself, if you have some skills at least. Of course, a pro is faster in it than a non-pro.

    In summary: track tests are super relevant for me. But only if they are done with production cars as also sold to the customers Smiley


    Re: AMG GT R

    ALDO:

    I think that I will have the next years at least one Porsche in my garage - more likely a Panamera turbo rather then a 911 turbo 

    The next generation 911 Turbo will be very tempting but I agree...right now...for me the next Cayenne Turbo S please (if I can afford it  Smiley).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: AMG GT R

    MKSGR:
    Dr. Phil:

    I guess this is a more philosophical comment on comparing high performance sportscars in general:
    As I see it, these Nordschleife times have absolutely zero practical relevance to 99.99% of the people who buy the cars they test. 


    wink

    Two important points to consider (based on my experience):

    - a sports car with a great track performance feels better on normal roads than a car with not so good track performance. The reason is probably that the precision and refinement required to make a car quick on the track can be felt in normal use as well. The other way round works as well: I can do a test drive and tell if the car is likely to produce great lap times.

    - a car that does faster lap times will be faster (on track) in the hands of any reasonably skilled driver than another car with less good track times. I.e. faster lap times mean you also get the faster car for yourself, if you have some skills at least. Of course, a pro is faster in it than a non-pro.

    In summary: track tests are super relevant for me. But only if they are done with production cars as also sold to the customers Smiley

    I think that you are not right for all roads and tracks. A car which is setup for a specific track maybe not so good for any other track or road conditions. Just take a track wich has a lot of grip and is plane. If you use this setup on a bumpy road with old surface then good night.


    --

    AM


    Re: AMG GT R

    ALDO:
    MKSGR:
    Dr. Phil:

    I guess this is a more philosophical comment on comparing high performance sportscars in general:
    As I see it, these Nordschleife times have absolutely zero practical relevance to 99.99% of the people who buy the cars they test. 


    wink

    Two important points to consider (based on my experience):

    - a sports car with a great track performance feels better on normal roads than a car with not so good track performance. The reason is probably that the precision and refinement required to make a car quick on the track can be felt in normal use as well. The other way round works as well: I can do a test drive and tell if the car is likely to produce great lap times.

    - a car that does faster lap times will be faster (on track) in the hands of any reasonably skilled driver than another car with less good track times. I.e. faster lap times mean you also get the faster car for yourself, if you have some skills at least. Of course, a pro is faster in it than a non-pro.

    In summary: track tests are super relevant for me. But only if they are done with production cars as also sold to the customers Smiley

    I think that you are not right for all roads and tracks. A car which is setup for a specific track maybe not so good for any other track or road conditions. Just take a track wich has a lot of grip and is plane. If you use this setup on a bumpy road with old surface then good night.

    How many current production sports cars do you know that are fast (let's say) on the NBR but not on the HHR? See, not so many if any Smiley


    Re: AMG GT R

    what about my GT3RS? Fast on HHR and not so fast on NBR.


    --

    AM


    Re: AMG GT R

    ALDO:

    what about my GT3RS? Fast on HHR and not so fast on NBR.

    I would not call it slow... 7.28 minus 4s for the speed limit (they mention it in the text) = 7.24.

    Given that the temperature on this day was 36C (Smiley) this is an excellent result for a car with just 500hp...


    Re: AMG GT R

    MKSGR:
    Dr. Phil:

    I guess this is a more philosophical comment on comparing high performance sportscars in general:
    As I see it, these Nordschleife times have absolutely zero practical relevance to 99.99% of the people who buy the cars they test. 


    wink

    Two important points to consider (based on my experience):

    - a sports car with a great track performance feels better on normal roads than a car with not so good track performance. The reason is probably that the precision and refinement required to make a car quick on the track can be felt in normal use as well. The other way round works as well: I can do a test drive and tell if the car is likely to produce great lap times.

    - a car that does faster lap times will be faster (on track) in the hands of any reasonably skilled driver than another car with less good track times. I.e. faster lap times mean you also get the faster car for yourself, if you have some skills at least. Of course, a pro is faster in it than a non-pro.

    In summary: track tests are super relevant for me. But only if they are done with production cars as also sold to the customers Smiley

    Eeeeeexactly my experience as well  Smiley

    Would just add one more point and that is that NRing because of its length, many many different corners, elevations, width and surface, etc is a unique "track" that mimics best out of any track the real world conditions in which we drive our cars. That is why Nring times are particularly interesting to me, compared to say the time on your regular smooth grippy wide and short track.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: AMG GT R

    MKSGR:
    ALDO:

    what about my GT3RS? Fast on HHR and not so fast on NBR.

    I would not call it slow... 7.28 minus 4s for the speed limit (they mention it in the text) = 7.24.

    Given that the temperature on this day was 36C (Smiley) this is an excellent result for a car with just 500hp...

    Actually, it is 7.32min minus 4s =7.28min I have that issue of SA in front of me. But, it is very fast car nevertheless.


    Re: AMG GT R

    And -241Nm.


    Re: AMG GT R

    KresoF1:
    MKSGR:
    ALDO:

    what about my GT3RS? Fast on HHR and not so fast on NBR.

    I would not call it slow... 7.28 minus 4s for the speed limit (they mention it in the text) = 7.24.

    Given that the temperature on this day was 36C (Smiley) this is an excellent result for a car with just 500hp...

    Actually, it is 7.32min minus 4s =7.28min I have that issue of SA in front of me. But, it is very fast car nevertheless.

    Upppsss Smiley Many thanks Smiley



    Re: AMG GT R

    MKSGR:
    Dr. Phil:

    I guess this is a more philosophical comment on comparing high performance sportscars in general:
    As I see it, these Nordschleife times have absolutely zero practical relevance to 99.99% of the people who buy the cars they test. 


    wink

    Two important points to consider (based on my experience):

    - a sports car with a great track performance feels better on normal roads than a car with not so good track performance. The reason is probably that the precision and refinement required to make a car quick on the track can be felt in normal use as well. The other way round works as well: I can do a test drive and tell if the car is likely to produce great lap times.

    - a car that does faster lap times will be faster (on track) in the hands of any reasonably skilled driver than another car with less good track times. I.e. faster lap times mean you also get the faster car for yourself, if you have some skills at least. Of course, a pro is faster in it than a non-pro.

    In summary: track tests are super relevant for me. But only if they are done with production cars as also sold to the customers Smiley

     

    In California, a car that is setup perfectly for the track is basically too stiff to work well on mountain roads.  Sorry to say, but there has to be some road bias otherwise you might as well get a real track car with the appropriate safety equipment.  My GT4 is setup well for the street, but even then, it's on the borderline on certain roads where a softer car could drive faster.  Also, a car that is so fast on the track might not be that fun to drive on the street.  

    It just depends on the particular car.  Some cars can do both well, but the manufacturer has to set the bias where they think appropriate.  


    Re: AMG GT R

    Sections of the Nordschliefe are more like a public mountain road than any other track (with some wickedly fast sections that don't translate as well to a public road).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: AMG GT R

    Grant:

    Sections of the Nordschliefe are more like a public mountain road than any other track (with some wickedly fast sections that don't translate as well to a public road).

    I absolutely agree. The road conditions on the Nordschleife are in many ways more similar to a country or mountain road than a racetrack, be it asphalt, bumps, off-camber in corners as well as the weather conditions. Most adaptive dampers are usually better left in Normal/Comfort mode instead of Sport/Stiff mode on the Nordschleife. Regular tracks indeed demand a much more compromised and usually stiffer setup than necessary for the road.


    Re: AMG GT R

    MKSGR:
    Dr. Phil:

    I guess this is a more philosophical comment on comparing high performance sportscars in general:
    As I see it, these Nordschleife times have absolutely zero practical relevance to 99.99% of the people who buy the cars they test. 

    Two important points to consider (based on my experience):

    - a sports car with a great track performance feels better on normal roads than a car with not so good track performance. The reason is probably that the precision and refinement required to make a car quick on the track can be felt in normal use as well. The other way round works as well: I can do a test drive and tell if the car is likely to produce great lap times.

    - a car that does faster lap times will be faster (on track) in the hands of any reasonably skilled driver than another car with less good track times. I.e. faster lap times mean you also get the faster car for yourself, if you have some skills at least. Of course, a pro is faster in it than a non-pro.

    In summary: track tests are super relevant for me. But only if they are done with production cars as also sold to the customers 


    Only one thing to add, these lap times are driven at 90 to 100 % of the car´s potential. Some cars might feel great and composed up to 60, 70 or 80 % of their potential but will not deliver on the track. That does not mean that those are bad cars for the general customer because many will never exceed that performance portion but enthusiasts and/or skilled drivers will miss that potential in the respective driving conditions.


    Re: AMG GT R

    RC:

    Actually, it is all about emotions in the end I have to admit. Get the car which tickles your senses most because in the end, this is what is important. I was way too numbers focused in the past.

    Also, to be blunt: Lots of driving reviews are often not correct if you talk to owners or read other reviews. It is sometimes amazing how a review can differ from another one. 

    I trust mostly owners because if they love a car, you just "feel" it.

    What I do not like are owners of cars who don't criticize anything. No car is perfect.

    Haven't actually a clue what to do when and if we part company with our Boxster GTS. I'm retiring (hopefully) next year, downside of that will be household income will reduce significantly. Probably get rid of SWMBO's shopping trolley and keep the Boxster and Volvo. Further into the future will come down to one general purpose car, the Audi S3 / RS3 is about the only car that would fit the bill currently. As much as I love Porsche I can't see any of their range would meet that other than Macan, even that is quite a large vehicle for just two of us.


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Volvo V40 D4 R Design daily drive

     


     
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