Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    The 997 Turbo is here and everybody is happy. Everybody? Not really I'm afraid. Yes, I ordered one. Yes, I will get one. Yes, I just can't wait to get mine. Am I happy? No, I'm not. I'm looking forward to get my Turbo but that special feeling I always had about getting a new car is somehow missing. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe because there is something about the new 997 Turbo I don't feel right about. Is it the looks? Well, it looks like the old one on steroids, so this really doesn't bother me. On the contrary, this slightly more aggressive looks pretty cool.
    Is it the technical data of the new Turbo? Well, judging by the specs, this car is pretty impressive. VTG charger technology, electronically controlled AWD, Overboost function, huge PCCB brake system, this car sounds like a hightech playground.
    Is it the price tag which bothers me? Well, of course it bothers me but it always bothered me because it is a lot of money, so this isn't it.
    So what is it? Why ain't I happy about getting such a fantastic car?

    So I was thinking and thinking and thinking and I came to a very simple conclusion: I don't feel the happiness of getting this car because it isn't something special.
    Now wait, would everybody say, how can this monster not be something special. 480 HP, 310 kph top speed, 3.7 seconds from 0-100 kph in 3.7, why would someone be crazy not to be happy to get such a car? Well, I don't expect everybody to understand, I agree. But you have to look at it from my point of view. I can't afford buying such a car every year. Over the last years, I spent too much money for cars. Now, I have to get a car I'm at least 4-5 years happy with. I just have the feeling that the 997 Turbo isn't the right car for this purpose.

    Maybe I'm spoiled, maybe I want more and more and I'm not satisifed anymore. But this ain't the reason I'm not really happy. When I got my 997 Carrera S back in August 2004, I was very happy and I felt that special feeling.
    Now, something is wrong.

    Maybe Porsche didn't really understand what people like me expected to see from them, maybe Porsche underestimated the desire of having the ultimate sportscar without having to wait until a model cycle is almost over, maybe Porsche was looking too much at new customers and saving cost than looking at the competition.

    Yes, the 997 Turbo is the hell of a car and it is very fast. It can't beat the F430 regarding the top speed but this really isn't a problem because it is extremely fast in the lower speed range. But still, with manual, performance of the 997 Turbo and F430 are at par, a little disappointment already. And what's with that Tiptronic is faster than manual stuff? I never really wanted Tiptronic in my sportscar and now I'm forced to get it because it is the only way I get the best performance? Is it really a clever thing to do to offer a car which is faster with an auto tranny than with manual, meaning that any housewife, 16-year old school kid, granny, etc. in a 997 Turbo could outrun me from a stoplight, no matter how hard I'm trying to shift? They just press the throttle and hallelujah, off they go? I'm really having a hard time to understand this.
    Or does Porsche think they can fool customers by making them think that they get the rumored PDK, just named Tiptronic? And if we're talking about the PDK: what took them so long to offer a sequential shifting system for the Turbo? Ferrari has it, BMW has it...are these companies technologically more advanced than Porsche? Or does Porsche want to sell something "special", too cook their own soup like we say here? And if so, how much is it going to cost us in the end? Double the Tiptronic price tag?

    Yes, I'll go for Tiptronic. And here's the catch: it may not be possible to get PCCB with Tiptronic because among the first launch cars, only the manuals have PCCB. Or was it only the cars with Tiptronic? I don't remember anymore, I'm confused. And what about this overboost? I like the idea of the overboost but why only in the middle rev range? And does the horse power go up too in that range, nobody can tell me that? And what about those 10 seconds? When I release the throttle, do I get immediately another 10 seconds or not? And what about the performance figures we're reading about? Are they with or without the overboost function? Lots of questions I have and looking at my position as Rennteam Editor, a true Porsche enthusiast and somebody who really has his sources for information, I shouldn't have these questions. But I still have them and the reason why I have them is simple: all this stuff is confusing, half-bread and somehow not understandable.

    Why doesn't Porsche explain in their press release why the Tiptronic is faster? Why don't they mention the 0-300 kph time with Tiptronic? Is it faster than manual too? Or is the manual faster at speeds over 200 kph?

    What about shifting times? Have shifting times been improved? What about the so much talked about better throttle response? Do we get a better throttle response with Tiptronic too?

    And exactly here's my problem: the new 997 Turbo confuses me and the more I think about it, I have to come to one conclusion: this car doesn't make sense to me. No way.
    To be honest: if I would have the money and if I wouldn't care about my sourroundings like neighborhood, customers, etc., I would probably go to the next Lamborghini dealer and get myself a Gallardo SE and be happy for the next few years. And funny enought, the 997 GT3 sounds more "logical" to me than the 997 Turbo, it attracts me more but I know that this is not the right car for me since I don't do much track racing.

    I don't know who is responsible for Porsche marketing and I don't know who was responsible for the 997 Turbo project, especially when it came to specify the technical specs.
    But one thing is for sure: nobody asked former Turbo customers what they think about it. And if they asked, they asked the wrong persons. Making a Tiptronic faster than manual, what the heck were they thinking? Don't get me wrong, there is nothing bad about Tiptronic. But whoever tried to use it in the manual mode, knows that not only the shifting reaction times suck, those stupid buttons on the steering wheel suck too. I don't know how many times I accidentally touched one of those buttons in my Cayenne Turbo or in my wife's Tiptronic equipped Boxster S. Why not shifting paddles? Are all the other manufacturers doing it wrong???

    I know that it is too late now to complaint about the new 997 Turbo. The specs are set and the cars are already in production. And I also bet that the upcoming powerkit won't be retrofittable, so just that I feel bad again when it shows up. No problem, I can take care of that of my own. But it still doesn't feel right that Porsche didn't use their chance to set all open bills straight by putting a whopping 520 HP in the Turbo and making it a real rocket.
    Of course we will see 510 or 520 HP in the Turbo, no doubt about it. And of course the 997 Turbo will kick the competition's a.. even with 480 HP, especially on the track. But how many of us are really track racing their car? How many of us are really driving this car at the limit? Isn't the 911 Turbo supposed to be Porsche's "top" model, with some variations at the end of the production cycle in the form of a "S" and GT2?

    Yes, I'm still getting the new 997 Turbo. Yes, I still want it and yes, I'm pretty sure it will be a lot of fun to drive. But no, this time I'm not happy to get it, it just feels like another car. Porsche starts to loose it's attraction and as soon as they realize that, it may be too late. Or maybe it is me and not them, maybe I'm getting old, maybe I don't like Porsche cars anymore.

    Or maybe I just got older, wiser and I started to understand the "game" Porsche is playing. And I can't say I like it. This comes from a customer, who bought several Porsche cars over the last few years. I don't want to offend anybody, I just wanted to express my personal feelings.

    And to end this long post: do you guys actually know what really bothers me: it bothers me that Porsche could have done better...MUCH better. Why didn't they? Marketing strategy, cost...whatever...I don't care. I don't feel good about it and this is all I care about. Amen.

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Too me, it's the best looking Porsche since the 993 turbo. It definitely has regained some of the magic that was lost in the 996 turbo. It's not perfect(the back end is lacking in turboness??), but it's the best looking Porsche in a while. As for performance, let's just wait for the road tests....

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    RC, my feelings are the same of at least 95% of things regarding new 997 Turbo.
    Why is TIP faster then manual? I think that question deserves in-depth answer from Porsche! Not Porsche marketing but, Porsche technical department! Personally, I would go for manual with mechanical rear axle differential lock. Funny thing-this differential lock is for manual cars only! So, despite all TIP excellence manual has more traction?? Specs-they are great, specially TIP but, did we expect more?? Unfortunately, new 997 Turbo is not faster then F430,Gallardo(my2006-520hp) or even BMW M6!! Yes, it will(will it?) offer unique feeling because of new AWD system and so on... I am asking myself did Porsche had in mind costumers of SL55 or 65 AMG? These are very fast straight line cars... One other question-what will happened if manual 997 Turbo is faster on the Hockenheim and Ring then TIP version?? Total confusion, I guess! You bought TIP(like RC) because it is faster(on straight line) but, NO, it is NOT faster around any track!? Very bitter taste if you ask me!
    I like the looks of car very much but, the rest of the stuff... And this stupid PDK game! We will have PDK in 18months time!? My guess is NO PDK on 997 Turbo at all!
    Is this thing technical failure? I think not but, only time will tell...
    So, Sport Auto will have first time in history twin Super Test of 997 Turbo-manual with rear differential lock and TIP. Porsche should be affraid of this Super Test, specially if manual car prove to faster around race track!
    As RC said every school boy or granny can be extremly fast in TIP 997 Turbo. Is that the point to make TIP faster?!
    I salute you RC, this thread that you wrote is one of the best text on Rennteam ever!

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    RC... when will we know if we can order a tip with pccb's..?

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Hey RC,

    A "from the heart" post there. I can't answer all of thoses questions, but I can answer this one:

    "And does the horse power go up too in that range, nobody can tell me that?"

    You saw the overboost torque curve, and specifically the overboosted area "above the curve" from about 1950 - 5000 rpm. Since horsepower is a function of torque it HAS to go up when the overboost is on. My calculations from the torque curve are below:

    HP developed at 460ftlb output curve:
    2100 rpm = 184hp
    3000 rpm = 263hp
    4000 rpm = 350hp

    HP developed at 505ftlb output curve
    2100 rpm = 202hp
    3000 rpm = 288hp
    4000 rpm = 385hp

    Where the curves reconverge, 5000 rpm, the engine is making about 438hp.

    I use the simple formula HP = rpm * torque (ft lbs) / 5252 as explained here:

    http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

    Forgive the vette reference, but I think it clarifies things nicely.

    Anyway, I hope this makes you feel a little better.

    mcdelaug

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The 997 Turbo is here and everybody is happy. Everybody? Not really I'm afraid. Yes, I ordered one. Yes, I will get one. Yes, I just can't wait to get mine. Am I happy? No, I'm not. I'm looking forward to get my Turbo but that special feeling I always had about getting a new car is somehow missing. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe because there is something about the new 997 Turbo I don't feel right about. Is it the looks? Well, it looks like the old one on steroids, so this really doesn't bother me. On the contrary, this slightly more aggressive looks pretty cool.
    Is it the technical data of the new Turbo? Well, judging by the specs, this car is pretty impressive. VTG charger technology, electronically controlled AWD, Overboost function, huge PCCB brake system, this car sounds like a hightech playground.
    Is it the price tag which bothers me? Well, of course it bothers me but it always bothered me because it is a lot of money, so this isn't it.
    So what is it? Why ain't I happy about getting such a fantastic car?

    So I was thinking and thinking and thinking and I came to a very simple conclusion: I don't feel the happiness of getting this car because it isn't something special.
    Now wait, would everybody say, how can this monster not be something special. 480 HP, 310 kph top speed, 3.7 seconds from 0-100 kph in 3.7, why would someone be crazy not to be happy to get such a car? Well, I don't expect everybody to understand, I agree. But you have to look at it from my point of view. I can't afford buying such a car every year. Over the last years, I spent too much money for cars. Now, I have to get a car I'm at least 4-5 years happy with. I just have the feeling that the 997 Turbo isn't the right car for this purpose.

    Maybe I'm spoiled, maybe I want more and more and I'm not satisifed anymore. But this ain't the reason I'm not really happy. When I got my 997 Carrera S back in August 2004, I was very happy and I felt that special feeling.
    Now, something is wrong.

    Maybe Porsche didn't really understand what people like me expected to see from them, maybe Porsche underestimated the desire of having the ultimate sportscar without having to wait until a model cycle is almost over, maybe Porsche was looking too much at new customers and saving cost than looking at the competition.

    Yes, the 997 Turbo is the hell of a car and it is very fast. It can't beat the F430 regarding the top speed but this really isn't a problem because it is extremely fast in the lower speed range. But still, with manual, performance of the 997 Turbo and F430 are at par, a little disappointment already. And what's with that Tiptronic is faster than manual stuff? I never really wanted Tiptronic in my sportscar and now I'm forced to get it because it is the only way I get the best performance? Is it really a clever thing to do to offer a car which is faster with an auto tranny than with manual, meaning that any housewife, 16-year old school kid, granny, etc. in a 997 Turbo could outrun me from a stoplight, no matter how hard I'm trying to shift? They just press the throttle and hallelujah, off they go? I'm really having a hard time to understand this.
    Or does Porsche think they can fool customers by making them think that they get the rumored PDK, just named Tiptronic? And if we're talking about the PDK: what took them so long to offer a sequential shifting system for the Turbo? Ferrari has it, BMW has it...are these companies technologically more advanced than Porsche? Or does Porsche want to sell something "special", too cook their own soup like we say here? And if so, how much is it going to cost us in the end? Double the Tiptronic price tag?

    Yes, I'll go for Tiptronic. And here's the catch: it may not be possible to get PCCB with Tiptronic because among the first launch cars, only the manuals have PCCB. Or was it only the cars with Tiptronic? I don't remember anymore, I'm confused. And what about this overboost? I like the idea of the overboost but why only in the middle rev range? And does the horse power go up too in that range, nobody can tell me that? And what about those 10 seconds? When I release the throttle, do I get immediately another 10 seconds or not? And what about the performance figures we're reading about? Are they with or without the overboost function? Lots of questions I have and looking at my position as Rennteam Editor, a true Porsche enthusiast and somebody who really has his sources for information, I shouldn't have these questions. But I still have them and the reason why I have them is simple: all this stuff is confusing, half-bread and somehow not understandable.

    Why doesn't Porsche explain in their press release why the Tiptronic is faster? Why don't they mention the 0-300 kph time with Tiptronic? Is it faster than manual too? Or is the manual faster at speeds over 200 kph?

    What about shifting times? Have shifting times been improved? What about the so much talked about better throttle response? Do we get a better throttle response with Tiptronic too?

    And exactly here's my problem: the new 997 Turbo confuses me and the more I think about it, I have to come to one conclusion: this car doesn't make sense to me. No way.
    To be honest: if I would have the money and if I wouldn't care about my sourroundings like neighborhood, customers, etc., I would probably go to the next Lamborghini dealer and get myself a Gallardo SE and be happy for the next few years. And funny enought, the 997 GT3 sounds more "logical" to me than the 997 Turbo, it attracts me more but I know that this is not the right car for me since I don't do much track racing.

    I don't know who is responsible for Porsche marketing and I don't know who was responsible for the 997 Turbo project, especially when it came to specify the technical specs.
    But one thing is for sure: nobody asked former Turbo customers what they think about it. And if they asked, they asked the wrong persons. Making a Tiptronic faster than manual, what the heck were they thinking? Don't get me wrong, there is nothing bad about Tiptronic. But whoever tried to use it in the manual mode, knows that not only the shifting reaction times suck, those stupid buttons on the steering wheel suck too. I don't know how many times I accidentally touched one of those buttons in my Cayenne Turbo or in my wife's Tiptronic equipped Boxster S. Why not shifting paddles? Are all the other manufacturers doing it wrong???

    I know that it is too late now to complaint about the new 997 Turbo. The specs are set and the cars are already in production. And I also bet that the upcoming powerkit won't be retrofittable, so just that I feel bad again when it shows up. No problem, I can take care of that of my own. But it still doesn't feel right that Porsche didn't use their chance to set all open bills straight by putting a whopping 520 HP in the Turbo and making it a real rocket.
    Of course we will see 510 or 520 HP in the Turbo, no doubt about it. And of course the 997 Turbo will kick the competition's a.. even with 480 HP, especially on the track. But how many of us are really track racing their car? How many of us are really driving this car at the limit? Isn't the 911 Turbo supposed to be Porsche's "top" model, with some variations at the end of the production cycle in the form of a "S" and GT2?

    Yes, I'm still getting the new 997 Turbo. Yes, I still want it and yes, I'm pretty sure it will be a lot of fun to drive. But no, this time I'm not happy to get it, it just feels like another car. Porsche starts to loose it's attraction and as soon as they realize that, it may be too late. Or maybe it is me and not them, maybe I'm getting old, maybe I don't like Porsche cars anymore.

    Or maybe I just got older, wiser and I started to understand the "game" Porsche is playing. And I can't say I like it. This comes from a customer, who bought several Porsche cars over the last few years. I don't want to offend anybody, I just wanted to express my personal feelings.

    And to end this long post: do you guys actually know what really bothers me: it bothers me that Porsche could have done better...MUCH better. Why didn't they? Marketing strategy, cost...whatever...I don't care. I don't feel good about it and this is all I care about. Amen.




    why would you ever spend Euro 150k and not be happy about it. You are not flush with cash - so why? Just because you need it. If where you, I would wait or get a different car. If you can drive up with a turbo to your customer or neighbourhoud you can drive any car...

    all I can say even if I could afford it I would buy a car which as you so nicely say "it just feels like another car" - you either want it or not, otherwise you are just fooling yourself

    just my 2p worth...

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    "I never really wanted Tiptronic in my sportscar and now I'm forced to get it because it is the only way I get the best performance?"
    Straight line performance includes 2 things:accelerating and braking.If you want the car to stop fast,the manual transmission is the way to go.With the Tiptronic you can't use the "engine brake".
    On a track the Tip is probably slower,even in terms of top speeds before the braking zone.

    "And does the horse power go up too in that range, nobody can tell me that?"
    Yes,because horsepower is the product of torque and revs.

    "When I release the throttle, do I get immediately another 10 seconds or not?"
    I think no.There was a similar device in a Ford Mondeo diesel.After the overboost you had to wait a few seconds to get the overboost again.The Mondeo also had a variable geometry turbocharger.Now i know that a Porsche is not a Ford but it uses similar technologies.

    "..it bothers me that Porsche could have done better...MUCH better.."
    Of course they could have done it much faster(i suppose you mean faster by better).The problem is that it would be too good for many people.480hp is a lot...the problem nowadays is that the cars evolve fasters than the people driving them.Also,the roads don't seem to improve from year to year.Why building a car that has a great perfomance but that no one can experience?To have the "it can do this and that.." effect?I'm not saying that everyone is a bad driver but [censored] happens and there is a difference between crashing at 80km/h and 120km/h.
    Making a car fast is not a problem.The F40 came out 17 years ago but still is faster than the Ford GT.The problem is that even professional drivers had problems driving the Ferrari.Francois Delecour,a French ex pro diver,crashed his F40 and nearly died.The Ford GT has a very predictable chassis and that what it makes it so good.


    I might be wrong on many things but i hope that I could help a bit.Don't forget that Porsche has it's reputation to defend and the best way to do so is to build a "Meisterwerk"!I'm sure you will love the car!!

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    RC, thanks for your post. I am sorry to hear what porsche is potentially doing to real Pcar fans. I myself like the more agressive style. I love the 997 interior and I think the wheels are a nice change. Even though I like the fact that the performance numbers have improved, I didn't want to drive a tiptronic either. I am very skepticle in regards to the reaction times of the tip and those little buttons on the steering wheel. Why didn't they put paddles like the F1 cars? Are the performance figures with or without the sport chrono package? Why no LED's in the rear, if this is thier FLAG SHIP??? I truely hope Porsche adresses these questions! This will be my first porsche and I cannot tell you for how many years i have held off and dreamed about owning a turbo. Last year i almost bought the 997s and decided to hold off for the Turbo. I hope it was the right decision. I am just hoping for the best but tiptronic has never really thrilled me!!!

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    I sense the main hang up for many right now is that the official Porsche figures peg the tip as a quicker machine, at least up to speeds owners are likely to see.

    I would wait for independent tests to see just how big the gap really is. The mags always launch harder than Porsche and consequently get better times (an extreme example is Car & Driver getting 4.1 s to 60 mph out of a standard 997 S - must have been a hell of clutch drop though). On the other hand, there is less variability in how aggressively one can drive the tip. You step on it and go, period. Less variables in terms of launch rpm, shifting speed etc. It may be possible that typical values are closer between the tip and manual. Also, I'm pretty sure that the manual will be quicker than the tip on a track.

    Actually, I'm really pleased with this car. The reasons are:

    1) Porsche has intoduced significant new technology (VTG) that promises a real improvement in torque spread.

    2) For the first time in god-know-how-long, Porsche has actually managed to shave a few pounds off of a new turbo. I think we were all expecting the usual weight increase. It may not be a huge weight reduction, but to me it is a significant turning of the tide.

    3) The styling is a personal thing, but I think Porsche has done well. The new wheels look great too.

    4) Yeah, maybe Porsche could have done better, but we can always say that too. I think this car is good value for the $$$ in terms of the combinations of performance, quality and safety.

    RC, I suspect you will love this car once you get it. I would think about the transmission though, for me, a couple of tenths is not worth the change in "fun" factor.

    However, if you can't come to feel the love for this car, don't get it. It's way too much $$ to not be 100% happy with. You might actually want to try the Gallardo (my favorite non-porsche for sure)... don't worry about what your neighbours think, we all only have one life to live...

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    No way I would order a 997 turbo with tiptronic.
    Its a sport car no limosine.
    Tiptronic faster then stickshift ------bad move Porsche-----

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Man if you're not 100% sure about a $120K purchase, then you better not get one.

    I guess when we spend this amount of money, you do tend to over think things. I believe this is what you're going through.

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    RC thanks for your honest words. i feel the same as you, will still buy the car,and with manual box. but i will not keep it.tip should no way be faster... one thing to say is in my opinion when compared to f430 this turbo will pull away,regardless of the figures we have now! wait for the test.

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    hm, i get your point. there's a lot i don't like about the turbo -- i expected better specs, PDK isn't ready (and the questionable tiptronic-is-faster-issue), the bumpy look, the generic cockpit, this impositioned chrono-thing...

    but the main thing is: the car doesn't touch my heart.

    the GT3 does. those official pictures of the white car... heart-pounding, what porsche is about, great!


    buying a car in this price range is no act of logic IMO. it's all about emotion. follow your heart!

    get this lambo! annoy your neighbors! they deserve it!

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    RC,
    I will not go into details but in general with passional purchases like a sports car, if you're not 100% happy and excited about it, don't go for it man.

    You're a man after the performance, you've always said it.
    The Gallardo SE is nice but the Turbo is faster off the start. Nonetheless, it would seem it would stir your blood more. Maybe in a darker color?

    About the whole tip/ manual gearbox performance difference, we are all puzzled indeed, especially you.

    I too wish that Porsche could have explained where the discrepency comes from, hopefully, we'll know soon enough and maybe then, you'll have more info to make a final choice.

    But my advice once again is, if you're not 100% sure about it, and most importantly if you're not 100% happy about it, don't do it.

    You write that you HAVE to buy it.
    No you don't, you don't have to do anything at all.

    It's your choice man, there's plenty of fantastic cars out there that can keep up with the new 997 Turbo.

    Let's wait for more technical info and let it sink in, it's only been two days since we have all this info.

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:
    Hey RC,

    A "from the heart" post there. I can't answer all of thoses questions, but I can answer this one:

    "And does the horse power go up too in that range, nobody can tell me that?"

    You saw the overboost torque curve, and specifically the overboosted area "above the curve" from about 1950 - 5000 rpm. Since horsepower is a function of torque it HAS to go up when the overboost is on. My calculations from the torque curve are below:

    HP developed at 460ftlb output curve:
    2100 rpm = 184hp
    3000 rpm = 263hp
    4000 rpm = 350hp

    HP developed at 505ftlb output curve
    2100 rpm = 202hp
    3000 rpm = 288hp
    4000 rpm = 385hp

    Where the curves reconverge, 5000 rpm, the engine is making about 438hp.

    I use the simple formula HP = rpm * torque (ft lbs) / 5252 as explained here:

    http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

    Forgive the vette reference, but I think it clarifies things nicely.

    Anyway, I hope this makes you feel a little better.

    mcdelaug



    mcdelaug,

    What RC is referring to is max power. Does that change as a result of the overboost. I don't believe max power has to change. If it does, it's negligible.

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Similar reaction to the Turbo vs GT3...the latter makes me want it, whereas the former is an interesting, nay compelling, engineering exercise.

    At $120k I want my emotions engaged as well.

    As for stomping on the F430, I rather expect that's the purpose of the 520bhp 997 Turbo S

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    I agree withall the above, but to sum up here is the word for you: "confusion".

    And that means less sales for Porsche unless we get more explanation.

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    RC I totally agree with you!.
    This is exactly the way I feel!
    The bad thing of all though is that Porsche doesnt care about us.. We the really car fans are the minority..
    They try to earn the target group who doesnt know to drive and so well but they have money...

    When they first made cayenne and boxsters i said it is ok, they are going to make big profits to INVEST to make really sport cars! But they "destroyed" and the flagship of the company aswell...
    They made a very fast car, but there is NO MAGIC in it.. i mean a car with NO personality or soul.. just a very fast car..

    The car that they produced is going to sell like crazy! Who is going to buy an other car? noone... So Porsche will achieve its target, to make even bigger profits.

    I will keep my Ferrari which comes in 2 months and my 997S (which i dont like and so much) and i will wait...
    If they are going to produce a really fast car with SOUL like lets say 997 RS, i will buy it. If not, after 11 years that i have Porsche cars i will sell my 997s and buy something else. (lets see and the 06 Gallardo what has to give..)

    And dont worry.!! We are the customers... We have the money and when we give such an ammount of money to buy a car, we want to get inside and feel like heaven...

    When i get into my car it doesnt matter if i am worried, exhausted, or have problems with my job girlfriend etc, i forget everything and i feel like a little kid who plays with its toys...(it doesnt matter if i go fast or not).
    For this reason I want to buy something which i will REALLY LIKE!

    I make NO COMPROMISES with my car. The problem belongs to Porsche NOT TO US..

    We just have to look forward... and find what really suits our personalities!!!

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    The shifting qualities of the 5-speed gearbox in the SLR was perfect, both during upshifts and downshifting.
    The NEW Tiptronic gearbox which has been extensively improved for the Turbo wouldn't yield as much improvement in a 997S for ex, mainly because of the engine characteristics.
    Posted times are CORRECT, accept it and make a decision.
    Why do you all complain and feel let down by Porsche, because an auto box is faster, I see it as a major achievement which I embrace.

    Posted times are without "OVERBOOST" and should therefore yield some improvement with this feature.

    One disappointment are those buttons on the steering wheel, why not paddles?

    PCCB: There are no restrictions in the beginning.

    "Overboost" is in effect at full throttle at 2100-4000 rpm and only there.
    That means, whenever you are at full throttle in that range you have 680 Nm.
    You can go on and off full throttle in that range as much as you want, you still have 680 Nm with the subsequent increase in Power.

    The formula has been stated here before and it reads:

    power = rpm x torque / 7023,5
    Torque = power/rpm x 7023,5

    Let me give you some examples:

    Standard 620 Nm/Overboost 680Nm

    620/680 Nm @ 2100 rpm = 185/203 HP
    @ 2500 rpm = 221/242 HP
    @ 3000 rpm = 265/290 HP
    @ 3500 rpm = 309/339 HP
    @ 4000 rpm = 353/387 HP
    620/660 Nm @ 4500 rpm = 397/423 HP
    620/646 Nm @ 4750 rpm = 419/437 HP
    620 Nm @ 5000 rpm = 441 HP


    Since we get PASM in the GT3 AND the GT3RS it must be yield some major improvements which certainly are good enough for all of us in the Turbo as well.

    The new 4-wheel drive system


    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    RC .. it is the way the car looks and you know it . There is nothing really exciting about the look nothing really new and special , another variation of the same thing . I think after almost 30 years of buying 911"s this is why the 430 looks so exciting to me .

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    As mcdelaug said, a 10% boost in torque from oveerboost also gives a 10% boost in power at those revs (2,100 - 4000 rpm). However, since overboost does not continue into the higher revs (this is part marketing - the engine can take the thermal loads of 600hp+), the peak power of 480hp will not be exceeded. I'm sure they want to be able to offer the Powerkit/Turbo S to make well over 500hp peak power, so it will appear to be worth the extra money. If this is true, the Turbo S will not be faster with Tip, since big power and torque will come up higher on the tach and shifting the 6 speed will become more relevant...

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Quote:
    OCEAN said:
    RC .. it is the way the car looks and you know it . There is nothing really exciting about the look nothing really new and special , another variation of the same thing . I think after almost 30 years of buying 911"s this is why the 430 looks so exciting to me .



    But they are not really in the same price league in the US...

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Hi SoCal,

    I see what you mean, but I figured that since the curve had been posted it was clear that it wouldn't increase peak HP since the overboost tapers off after 4000 rpm. I suspect the shape of the overboost curve and its 10 second time limit are designed to prevent excessive thermal loads. If true it makes sense that this feature wouldn't be available at higher rpms. Anyway, I posted it only in the hopes of it making that question less of an issue.

    mcdelaug

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Quote:
    Aisxos said:
    The bad thing of all though is that Porsche doesnt care about us.. We the really car fans are the minority..
    They try to earn the target group who doesnt know to drive and so well but they have money...

    They made a very fast car, but there is NO MAGIC in it.. i mean a car with NO personality or soul.. just a very fast car..




    Although I agree with your first point, I find your second statement rather ambiguous.
    Of all members, I seem to remember you're the one always bragging about 0 to 100 times, performance, etc.
    So what do you mean by magic?
    The only car on sale faster than the 997 Turbo is the Ferrari Enzo (0 to 100 kmh that is).
    You touched something rather interesting here when you mention magic, soul, personality, etc.
    It depends on what the driver wants really.
    We all know the 996 Turbo, as well as the 997, so we all knew what kind of car the 997 Turbo would be. An ultra efficient 4WD car with tons of grip and torque!

    It would seem the F430 Spider will suit you better.

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    hm, i get your point. there's a lot i don't like about the turbo -- i expected better specs, PDK isn't ready (and the questionable tiptronic-is-faster-issue), the bumpy look, the generic cockpit, this impositioned chrono-thing...

    but the main thing is: the car doesn't touch my heart.

    the GT3 does. those official pictures of the white car... heart-pounding, what porsche is about, great!


    buying a car in this price range is no act of logic IMO. it's all about emotion. follow your heart!

    get this lambo! annoy your neighbors! they deserve it!



    AND SOMETHING MORE RC
    You are an old customer of Porsche as well,
    Before 6-10 years that Porsche hadnt produced yet the boxsters and there wasnt so many Porsche cars on the road, you didnt have a problem with your neighbors?
    it is the same like buying now a lambo.

    the only problem that you may have to face is with your company..

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    What the HELL did you people expect!!!

    PASM: Improved to the extent that it is good enough for the GT3 AND the GT3RS!!!

    New 4-wheel drive system which None of you expected!!

    Lighter than you expected!!

    VTG

    A monstrous Torque curve.

    Lowered fuel consumtion.

    Performance stats on Paper that are a major imrovement compared to 996 Turbo and Turbo S.

    A New Tiptronic gearbox with excellent performance stats making it a viable option.

    310 KPH is good enough for me and I drive on the Autobahn.

    For those of you who live in the US this is not even open for discussion since most of you haven't even exceeded 170 MPH!!

    480 HP is 480 Porsche HP which is good enough unless you only care about numbers on Paper.

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    All of these could have been much better, more honest and
    better performing.

    Cayenne.

    Cayman.

    Now the 997TT !

    Next will be the Panamera.

    The trend sucks!

    I think the CGT may have been Porsche's last hurrah as a builder of Porsches.

    You used to see more rub off between Porsche Motorsports
    and their street cars. Now its as if Porsche Motorsports
    exists on another planet.

    Empty hearted marketing calculations, out of Germany vendor
    supplier and manufacturing schemes are all out of balance over passion.

    A new model Porsche Turbo NOT generating excitement, lust and desire but only questions and doubt?????

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    Aisxos said:
    The bad thing of all though is that Porsche doesnt care about us.. We the really car fans are the minority..
    They try to earn the target group who doesnt know to drive and so well but they have money...

    They made a very fast car, but there is NO MAGIC in it.. i mean a car with NO personality or soul.. just a very fast car..




    Although I agree with your first point, I find your second statement rather ambiguous.
    Of all members, I seem to remember you're the one always bragging about 0 to 100 times, performance, etc.
    So what do you mean by magic?
    The only car on sale faster than the 997 Turbo is the Ferrari Enzo (0 to 100 kmh that is).
    You touched something rather interesting here when you mention magic, soul, personality, etc.
    It depends on what the driver wants really.
    We all know the 996 Turbo, as well as the 997, so we all knew what kind of car the 997 Turbo would be. An ultra efficient 4WD car with tons of grip and torque!

    It would seem the F430 Spider will suit you better.



    You didnt get my point...
    When you drive a sport car I want to feel free.. I dont care so much about the appearence.. I really dont like the fact that my mother can take the 997 turbo and be as fast as i am on the street. My best porsche of all was my 996 GT3 (which the only thing again i was hating was the 996 turbos which were faster than me) and my father's 911 turbo 2wd with the big tail. (which i didnt drive as i didnt have a license )(bad boys car).

    for me to buy a porsche tiptronic is a very big compromise...

    on the other hand to buy a manual which my mam with the tiprtonic s will be faster than me is an even bigger compromise...

    I may buy a 997 GT3 RS or a GT2 (depends on the money for the second) as for no reason Porsche makes it very very expensive!
    I hope now you understand my point..

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    I think that it is a shame that Porsche did not focus on getting a 500 hp manual car which would, with skill, blow everything else into the weeds and then add a DSG box and make it quicker with paddle change. (unless there are more surprises when the road tests start..)It has always been part of the attraction of a 911 and turbo-the skill required to make it perform. A tiptronic rocket is no doubt a masterwork, but for me it has robbed us of the challenge of extracting the performance, the ordinary interior is too ordinary and for the money it lacks outright desirability and specialness over a Lambo, Ferrari or even to some extent that rare beast an Aston. At least a GT3 gets a somewhat different interior....

    So now I have to go to Geneva and see if it does it for me when I see it for real. I may eat my words....

    Re: New 997 Turbo - did Porsche a good job?

    CF, its not the numbers, its not the speed, its not the lack of technology.

    Its the intangible, its the heart.

    A manual gearbox, even a PDK gearbox sightly, provides for interaction between driver and machine that is more personal and sporting than the Tip and its Kia like buttons.

    Its something called fun. And the fastest car should also be the most fun. There is no joy with a Tiptronic being
    the quickest!

    Its like a betrayal or kissing your sister! (no offense against your sister if you have one)

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 5/18/22 6:36 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    686490 1306
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 10/9/22 4:08 PM
    watt
    320145 1186
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 12/1/22 4:38 PM
    Enmanuel
    217277 1258
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 11/29/22 4:25 PM
    Leawood911
    202865 436
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/6/22 12:37 AM
    WhoopsyM
    186144 580
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/22/22 8:19 PM
    GaussM
    129498 9
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 11/30/22 2:30 PM
    GnilM
    57357 68
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/1/22 10:14 PM
    SSO.
    521231 3954
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 2/1/22 9:49 AM
    RCA
    476709 2655
    Porsche 992 GT3 11/27/22 2:46 AM
    WhoopsyM
    472790 3785
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/30/22 6:31 PM
    Grant
    230250 774
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 12/2/22 6:41 AM
    WhoopsyM
    228505 1447
    AMG AMG GT R 3/13/22 8:52 PM
    spudgun
    199925 834
    Lambo Aventador and SV 5/20/22 5:24 PM
    Topspeed
    196026 710
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 10/27/22 2:59 PM
    Leawood911
    190612 1863
    Porsche GT4RS 11/24/22 3:09 AM
    GnilM
    190270 1193
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 4/19/22 10:08 PM
    Leawood911
    163497 1590
    Others Bugatti Chiron 8/30/22 4:31 PM
    Josef
    160653 525
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/12/22 5:09 PM
    watt
    156834 535
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 2/28/22 7:42 PM
    Topspeed
    143424 409
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 10/6/22 11:48 PM
    DJM48
    140306 501
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 6/7/22 1:20 PM
    Topspeed
    138435 593
    Others Corvette C8 7/18/22 12:40 PM
    WhoopsyM
    137677 443
    Porsche Dave and Gnil @ Nürburgring Nordschleife 7/4/22 10:42 PM
    DaveGordon
    136273 722
    Motor Sp. [2022] Formula 1 12/2/22 1:07 AM
    DJM48
    127175 1556
    Others Toyota Yaris GR 4/13/22 8:33 PM
    Grant
    107320 640
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/21/22 8:37 AM
    RCA
    106353 335
    AMG Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 10/24/22 7:42 AM
    RCA
    104061 402
    Ferrari Wandered to the dark side 8/29/22 9:35 AM
    BiTurbo
    79120 418
    Ferrari Ferrari Roma 4/18/22 4:33 PM
    watt
    31545 438
    176 items found, displaying 1 to 30.