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    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Agree enthusiastically with you, Mike.  Guess I am the same demographic, and have the same taste.  Panamera is right down my alley. 

    A passing thought on the "cheezy" Porsche badge.  I had and loved a 904GTS, and will always remember when I was restoring the car and removed the added on fiberglass rear ducktail spoiler, I found the original Porsche letters underneath.  A restorer's treasure, and it is exactly like the badge on the Panamera.  Cool retro IMHO. 


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Wonderbar:

    Agree enthusiastically with you, Mike.  Guess I am the same demographic, and have the same taste.  Panamera is right down my alley. 

    A passing thought on the "cheezy" Porsche badge.  I had and loved a 904GTS, and will always remember when I was restoring the car and removed the added on fiberglass rear ducktail spoiler, I found the original Porsche letters underneath.  A restorer's treasure, and it is exactly like the badge on the Panamera.  Cool retro IMHO. 

    904GTS Porsche Lettering.jpg


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Mike: You got rid of the Bentley? 


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    ADias:

    Mike: You got rid of the Bentley? 

    No.  I still have it, but it's not my every-day ride.

    The Pana Turbo will be my "beater" car Smiley and replaces my GL450 doing the same duty.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    I've seen a couple of Panamera's on the road and I thought they look pretty good. Having said that, I think colour is a very important criteria to make that statement valid. It looks pretty cool in silver or black, but I saw a red 'S' with the crappy wheel option and it looked like garbage.

    This looks good:

    126634830016841258878315fc92ef714o.jpg

    or this one:

    12663483153914126658408902b854930o.jpg


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    W8MM:
    ADias:

    Mike: You got rid of the Bentley? 

    No.  I still have it, but it's not my every-day ride.

    The Pana Turbo will be my "beater" car Smiley and replaces my GL450 doing the same duty.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

     

    You are 911-less these days? You should correct that soon. :) Replace that Tesla with a 911 GT3R Hybrid. Talking about that what do you think of the its gyro effect and precession on normal cambered roads?


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    ADias:      You are 911-less these days? You should correct that soon. :) Replace that Tesla with a 911 GT3R Hybrid. Talking about that what do you think of the its gyro effect and precession on normal cambered roads?

     

    I think that if Williams used the flywheel in Formula 1, it can't be that detrimental to handling.  We're speculating about what might happen and it's all a matter of the scale of the effect, not whether it exists.  Kind of like CO2 in the atmosphere.  Is it enough to be a bother?  Probably not.

    If the Tesla ever loses fancy with my wife, I might be tempted into a GT3 Hybrid of the future Smiley


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Just a slight correction: Williams did not use the flywheel in F1.

    Otherwise, I agree totally.


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    W8MM:
    ADias:      You are 911-less these days? You should correct that soon. :) Replace that Tesla with a 911 GT3R Hybrid. Talking about that what do you think of the its gyro effect and precession on normal cambered roads?

     

    I think that if Williams used the flywheel in Formula 1, it can't be that detrimental to handling.  We're speculating about what might happen and it's all a matter of the scale of the effect, not whether it exists.  Kind of like CO2 in the atmosphere.  Is it enough to be a bother?  Probably not.

    If the Tesla ever loses fancy with my wife, I might be tempted into a GT3 Hybrid of the future Smiley

     

    I suspect that the gyro effects are far more important than any extra man-made CO2 in the atmosphere - at least the latter is negligible. :)


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Mike, I really envy you. You don't need to care about the price tag OR public perception and this is actually what real freedom means. Smiley

    I wish I were in the same situation but I ain't and most people I know over here in Germany are in a similar situation I am.

    Example: I just met a guy at my ski resort over here in Austria who bought a BMW 740d instead of the Panamera S he actually wanted. Not only was the lease cost much lower on the BMW, despite a similar price tag to the Panamera S, the BMW has a different perception at his customers and, I quote this guy "they wouldn't do business with me if I drive a Panamera".

    He is in the high profile (mostly companies) real estate business in Munich and Munich isn't really a town where you need to hide what you have. Driving a Panamera as a business car however seems to be a problem even in Munich.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    RC:

    Mike, I really envy you. You don't need to care about the price tag OR public perception and this is actually what real freedom means. Smiley

    I wish I were in the same situation but I ain't and most people I know over here in Germany are in a similar situation I am.

    Example: I just met a guy at my ski resort over here in Austria who bought a BMW 740d instead of the Panamera S he actually wanted. Not only was the lease cost much lower on the BMW, despite a similar price tag to the Panamera S, the BMW has a different perception at his customers and, I quote this guy "they wouldn't do business with me if I drive a Panamera".

    He is in the high profile (mostly companies) real estate business in Munich and Munich isn't really a town where you need to hide what you have. Driving a Panamera as a business car however seems to be a problem even in Munich.

    Big problems indeed in Germany! It seems that one of the biggest dilemmas there is the choice between a 740 or a Panamera S or between a Cayenne Turbo or a X5M.

    Some people are lucky in this world


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    reginos:
    RC:

    Mike, I really envy you. You don't need to care about the price tag OR public perception and this is actually what real freedom means. Smiley

    I wish I were in the same situation but I ain't and most people I know over here in Germany are in a similar situation I am.

    Example: I just met a guy at my ski resort over here in Austria who bought a BMW 740d instead of the Panamera S he actually wanted. Not only was the lease cost much lower on the BMW, despite a similar price tag to the Panamera S, the BMW has a different perception at his customers and, I quote this guy "they wouldn't do business with me if I drive a Panamera".

    He is in the high profile (mostly companies) real estate business in Munich and Munich isn't really a town where you need to hide what you have. Driving a Panamera as a business car however seems to be a problem even in Munich.

    Big problems indeed in Germany! It seems that one of the biggest dilemmas there is the choice between a 740 or a Panamera S or between a Cayenne Turbo or a X5M.

    Some people are lucky in this world

     

    Yep, life is tough Smiley Smiley..
     

     

    I understand where there coming from, however..The green eye monster is here in th UK in abundance, my X5 has been keyed 4 times since owning from brand new..Makes me wonder what they will do to my next car...The "his doing too well" syndrome here is very sad but true..

    Congrats, Mike...

     


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    RC:

    Mike, I really envy you. You don't need to care about the price tag OR public perception and this is actually what real freedom means. Smiley

    Careful, Christian, that feeling is what puts your countrymen in so much angst SmileySmileySmiley

    I am so lucky to live in the USA.  Otherwise, my business would have been either impossible to start or very rudely treated, neither of which would leave me in my present financial condition.  My enjoyments would be under so much more social disapproval, and my and my family's life would not seem so blessed.  I am lucky, indeed, to be born an American.

    Perhaps that is why every instance, even feint, of our political system turning towards European (or other) Socialism is such a hot button for me and my reaction seems exaggerated to readers from elsewhere.  I can see all too clearly that any such movement will do me, my family, and ordinary Americans no good at all.  My fondest wish is that more people all over the world could participate in a life that includes the freedoms (and responsibilities) of traditional USA philosophical DNA.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Mike caught the sentiment expressed by RC - "I really envy you". But knowing RC from the many statements he made on the subject I do not think he envies anyone from a wealth perspective. I think he envies the freedom to act individually without feeling societal pressures. RC has expressed many times that he is all for equal opportunity, and that implies no envy on other's success, notwithstanding the society he lives in.

    OTOH, Mike is correct. Envy of one's success is highly corrosive and rampant in Europe. I hope the US continues open to equal opportunity and hard work to lead to one's success. I am with you Mike - let's make sure the US rejects socialism, free handouts and inefficient entitlement programs - all prosperity killers.

     

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    ADias:

    Mike caught the sentiment expressed by RC - "I really envy you". But knowing RC from the many statements he made on the subject I do not think he envies anyone from a wealth perspective. I think he envies the freedom to act individually without feeling societal pressures. RC has expressed many times that he is all for equal opportunity, and that implies no envy on other's success, notwithstanding the society he lives in.


    I couldn't have said it better, thank you ! Smiley

    Knowing the TRUE meaning of a socialist society, I think however that Mike is confusing socialism with social but everything else he said, I agree with. Europe offers a lot of social security and safety for people but at the same time, the social system over here also inhibits some economic developments and freedoms I wish we had. Bureaucracy is also one of our major problems and of course the tax system which not only is complicated but taxes are way too high. I agree that social responsibility also means spending money for it but when those who actually pay the majority of taxes are punished for their hard work, something is definetely wrong. I work hard and I don't have to be ashamed of my achievements but society in Germany somehow implies that it is shameful to lead a good life while others can't afford the same. Why should they ? In Europe, most people have more or less equal opportunities, it just depends on what they make out of them. Of course you need to have some luck too in life but most people over here want to have a good life and a leading position in a company without the responsibility and hard work which comes with it. This can't work.

    The US is far away from socialism, I even think that is actually the problem with having two conservative parties in the US. They aren't much different and this is why nothing really changes into a direction or another. Most Americans don't even realize that, this is why I think that sooner or later, a third party will gain power in the US. Especially after the disappointment with Obama (promised a lot, maybe too much), there is definetely room for a party/movement left of the Democrats and this is actually where the real trouble could start sooner or later in the US. Not now, not in a year but maybe in 10 years.

    Europe is a different story. Like I said, Germany is a capitalist society with a socialist heart. It is time that those who pay most of the taxes in Germany realize that it is good to keep a good social system working but not so good to have those who profit from this social system turn their backs on those who pay for it. Most social aid receivers are not very grateful and are pointing with their fingers towards those who actually allow the social system to work with their tax payer money. In Germany, it isn't politically correct to blame those who are abusing the social aid system but it is politically correct to criticize those who work and make good money for not paying more taxes. Smiley Europe can't survive economically that way and they wonder why so many European companies are leaving Europe. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    RC:
    Knowing the TRUE meaning of a socialist society, I think however that Mike is confusing socialism with social but everything else he said, I agree with. Europe offers a lot of social security and safety for people but at the same time, the social system over here also inhibits some economic developments and freedoms I wish we had. Bureaucracy is also one of our major problems and of course the tax system which not only is complicated but taxes are way too high. I agree that social responsibility also means spending money for it but when those who actually pay the majority of taxes are punished for their hard work, something is definetely wrong. I work hard and I don't have to be ashamed of my achievements but society in Germany somehow implies that it is shameful to lead a good life while others can't afford the same. Why should they ? In Europe, most people have more or less equal opportunities, it just depends on what they make out of them. Of course you need to have some luck too in life but most people over here want to have a good life and a leading position in a company without the responsibility and hard work which comes with it. This can't work.

    The US is far away from socialism, I even think that is actually the problem with having two conservative parties in the US. They aren't much different and this is why nothing really changes into a direction or another. Most Americans don't even realize that, this is why I think that sooner or later, a third party will gain power in the US. Especially after the disappointment with Obama (promised a lot, maybe too much), there is definetely room for a party/movement left of the Democrats and this is actually where the real trouble could start sooner or later in the US. Not now, not in a year but maybe in 10 years.

    Europe is a different story. Like I said, Germany is a capitalist society with a socialist heart. It is time that those who pay most of the taxes in Germany realize that it is good to keep a good social system working but not so good to have those who profit from this social system turn their backs on those who pay for it. Most social aid receivers are not very grateful and are pointing with their fingers towards those who actually allow the social system to work with their tax payer money. In Germany, it isn't politically correct to blame those who are abusing the social aid system but it is politically correct to criticize those who work and make good money for not paying more taxes. Smiley Europe can't survive economically that way and they wonder why so many European companies are leaving Europe. Smiley

     

    There we have to disagree, but I understand that your view of the US is colored by the distorted views of the international and the national media reports, notwithstanding the time you spend here on vacation.

    The American people wants most and foremost freedom. Freedom means opportunity and also entails responsibility. We also think that the government should have a limited role. This is the fundamental difference between us and the rest of the world. I will not comment much on politics, but I will say that there is a significant difference between the two parties and their praxis at the moment. The Republicans are center-right and the Dems leadership is far-left. The American people does not support the Dems left leanings and even less an even more left radical party in the future.

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    You will be surprised what the American people will support in the future if money is tight.

    Americans are humans too and humans are very very predictable.

    Freedom ? Wait: I can't drink a beer in public or show my boobs without getting arrested and you call that freedom ?!

    Seriously: the US is not much different from the world as many Americans think. The only truth is that many Americans don't have a clue about the world surrounding them. 

    In the past 20 years, I was around 30x in the US and probably the same amount of times in other countries like Spain, France, Italy, Austria, Hong Kong, Switzerland and others.

    Most Americans I know travel once or twice in their life outside the US.

    I also worked with many Americans as a diplomat and you would be surprised who is representing your country outside the US. I will never forget how the new US consul confused Budapest for Bucharest in a speech.  This guy was on his first assignment outside for the US and he NEVER had been to Europe before...in his life. He was over 40 years old.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    RC:

    Most Americans I know travel once or twice in their life outside the US.

     

    The insularity of many Americans is a fact. This country is a continent, so many Americans do not see the need to go abroad.

    The same thing can be said of foreigners regarding their knowledge of the US. They visit and restrict themselves to big cities , such as NY and that is not the America I know.

    Back OT... the Panamera will succeed! Smiley

     

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S. Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    The Panamera will succeed but it depends on what markets. In Germany ? I highly doubt it right now. Middle East ? Apparently the Panamera isn't that beloved as many thought before. Asia ? Well...Chinese prefer SUVs and the Mercedes S class (I think).

    Eastern Europe ? Roads are too bad for such a nice car, I'd say that a SUV is the better choice.

    Remains the US but judging from Ron's post, I'm not too sure about that either. 

    I'd say we need to wait at least another year or so to learn if the Panamera is/was a success or not. One thing is for sure: the Panamera isn't just Porsche's one and last shot at a sporty sedan, there will be a next generation too. In my opinion, the next generation will be different but maybe I'm wrong. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Assuming that Porsche has a press conference in Geneva, I am sure a question will be asked about Panamera sales in various markets.  If the question does not arise, I will ask Porsche representatives in the press rooms at the display, and post the answers...


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    RC:

    The Panamera will succeed but it depends on what markets. .........

    Remains the US but judging from Ron's post, I'm not too sure about that either. 

    I think the USA sales results for Panamera are quite different from dealer to dealer.  My dealer in Cincinnati says that the Panamera is the best selling Porsche line that they have.  Maybe my town is weird or maybe there is something in the demographics that is special for Porsche here.

    I read another post about unsold Panamera inventory in northern California.  I have a friend who lives in Novato who will never again consider buying a Porsche from his local dealer.  He says they are beyond arrogant and think the customer is privileged to be allowed to make a purchase from them.  He lived in Cincinnati when I met him and he says buying a Porsche three time zones away in Cincinnati is easier and more pleasurable than from his local dealer.

    Since the Panamera is a "different" kind of Porsche, perhaps traditional sales practices are not as effective as for other Porsche models in some locales.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    The other day I checked how many Panameras are available in the German Porsche dealer network. I couldn't believe the number: 83


    --

    997 GT3 RS


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Mikla:

    The other day I checked how many Panameras are available in the German Porsche dealer network. I couldn't believe the number: 83

     

    These are the cars which are officially entered into the system. Many dealers have cars which aren't in the system (yet).

    To make it short: it is pretty easy to get a Panamera, especially the Turbo, for instant delivery. Most cars are pretty well equipped.

    I still think that the Panamera is a great Porsche but it won't be easier for dealers when the new Cayenne shows up. With a lower weight compared to the old Cayenne and a lower price tag (unless Porsche raises it) compared to the Panamera, the new Cayenne could actually become the greatest competition for the Panamera in Germany.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Interesting point RC.

    Guess we would be able to find nice deals in fall once the new Cayenne is a reality. Even taking into account the additional taxes we have in Spain, it may be a good business! Shame the Panamera doesn't feel my need to have a five seater...


    --

    997 GT3 RS


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    The situation is contrasted.

    In North America (US+CAN) Panamera sales represent around 25% of total sales. Since its introduction in October, 1,913 Panamera were sold out of 7,635 total Porsche sold over the period.

    In France since Sept, 179 Panamera were sold and if you go on France's largest used car web site ( www.lacentrale.fr) 61 cars are listed for sale !!! OK not all of them are "French" ones .... but it is still a lot !!!

    More scary is the number of Cayenne listed on the same web site (566 units) ... I'm thrilled I got rid of it !!!!


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    My german dealer just offered me 10% rebate on a brandnew Panamera Turbo. So if someone is interested... 

    He also has a new Panamera S, worth 135000 EUR for a special price tag of 118000 EUR.

    The Panamera Turbo I saw at my dealer was absolutely beautiful, some sort of carbon black color with light interior and Turbo rims. I didn't have a camera with me but definetely a beautiful car.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    RC:

    My german dealer just offered me 10% rebate on a brandnew Panamera Turbo. So if someone is interested... 

    He also has a new Panamera S, worth 135000 EUR for a special price tag of 118000 EUR.

    The Panamera Turbo I saw at my dealer was absolutely beautiful, some sort of carbon black color with light interior and Turbo rims. I didn't have a camera with me but definetely a beautiful car.


    This one maybe? http://www.porsche-augsburg.de/portal/unsere_neuwagen_de_aub,,292049.html

    Nice Panamera. Carbongrau is excellent color for it.

    Just... Price tag is nice as well...


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Yep, this is the car. Looks absolutely beautiful in reality, they have it in the showroom.

    Price tag is 153136 EUR but take off 10% and you have 137822 EUR.

    I'd actually say that this car should go for 137000 flat.

    The price tag is incl. 19% german VAT.

    If I wouldn't have chosen the X5 M, I would have gone for this baby. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    I've also seen low kms Panamera 4S for less than 100.000 Euros!


    --

    997 GT3 RS


    Re: I saw my first Panamera in person

    Mikla:

    I've also seen low kms Panamera 4S for less than 100.000 Euros!

     

    I can confirm that, have seen some 4S with below 10.000km for around 95k€ incl. german Tax. The new list price should have been around 125 to 130 k€


     
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