Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - F430 presentation - Page3

Jul 21, 2004 3:36:42 PM

PopZen: Newbie; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 1, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 12, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: F430 presentation

I spoke with my dealer recently about this new car, and they are being very cautious about any info. They say they don't know any more than what Ferrari has officially released (nothing) so they won't confirm or deny any of the photos. They did mention they are starting to get some interest and the reserve list is growing. I myself put a deposit down on two cars in February of 2002 (they would only allow one per person, so my wife ended up putting down a depost!). Our cars are numbers 26 & 27 on the list, and he said the list is past 120 already! At our dealer, these lists are handled very offically with a 3-page contract and official date & list position number. In the past, at another dealer, my order for a 360 Spider which I was originally told to be #7 on the list, ended up being the 12th car delivered as the dealer took care of some of their more "special" clients ahead of me. By the time the car is officially introduced, they expect to have a list of over 250 people, which is roughly 4+ years for anyone walking in the door after the first car is delivered! (Note: @ $5,000 per car, our dealer has already taken in $600,000+ in deposits) I spoke with him about the Coupe/Spider issue as well. He said once Ferrari officially introduces the car, each person on the list will be given an option of choosing a coupe (which will obvioulsy arrive first) or wait longer for a spider. So, if half the list splits and half the people wait for the spider (as I plan to do) that should move our cars up on the spider list...maybe #13 & #14?. I'll let you know any more I find out as I continue to probe our friends at the dealer.

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Jul 21, 2004 4:29:50 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: Angshu

Re: F430 presentation

Looks like Ferrari is piling on the " heritage" cues as much as Porsche these days in a calculated move to maximize aging boomer sales ( biggest loyal customer base ) before their knees give out . Sharknose front, P3 rear fender intake . If that had been the case in the 60s, classic road cars like the 250 GTO and 275 GTB would have looked like pre-war 1930s Scuderia Ferrari ALFA Romeo racers !
How will THESE new cars look in 40 years when they emulate by-then 80 y/o cars ? Do Ford Model T's excite anyone here ?

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Jul 21, 2004 5:48:45 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13651, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: B2RBO

Re: F430 presentation

According to Jean Todt it will have 490hp. Also a completely redesign interior. 25% more torque.

I am not crazy about the tear drop front end vents.

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Jul 21, 2004 6:10:25 PM

Bad TT: Co-Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 185, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
nberry said:
According to Jean Todt it will have 490hp. Also a completely redesign interior. 25% more torque.

I am not crazy about the tear drop front end vents.

Someone also said expect 220-225,000 US $ for the entry level car?

That's ok Nick you'll buy one anyhow.

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Jul 21, 2004 6:16:01 PM

testaF430: Newbie; Loc: Belgium; Posts: 1, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 21, 2004; Reply to: geertf60

Re: F430 presentation

I was present at the presentation, there are over 1000 people invited. The complete F1 team (including the drivers) and Luca Montezemolowas present
Bay the way the F430 is a fantastic car.

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Jul 21, 2004 6:31:22 PM

farina: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 437, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 4, 2003; Reply to: testaF430

Re: F430 presentation

Yes it looks fantastic! Look again at the Mexican shot:
I've worked a little at the rear section by making the details clearer (diffusor and the angle of the camera lens).

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Jul 21, 2004 6:31:35 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13651, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Bad TT

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
Bad TT said:
Quote:
nberry said:
According to Jean Todt it will have 490hp. Also a completely redesign interior. 25% more torque.

I am not crazy about the tear drop front end vents.

Someone also said expect 220-225,000 US $ for the entry level car?

That's ok Nick you'll buy one anyhow.

$225,000?

I can understand 175,000 or so.

Yes I probably will get one because I have not lost any money on my Spider. I suspect the new coupe will appreciate in value fairly significantly provided they do not over price it.

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Jul 21, 2004 7:08:35 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12666, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: farina

Re: F430 presentation

In Antwort auf:
farina said:
Yes it looks fantastic! Look again at the Mexican shot:
I've worked a little at the rear section by making the details clearer (diffusor and the angle of the camera lens).

Correct farina!

If you sharpen the edges, the whole back looks better, not as bland as you might think at first sight. I think it will be the same at the front, especially because the only pic is very blurry here and I guess there will be some edges and lines at the front as well. I'm sure the car will be astonishing in real (can't wait

).

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Jul 21, 2004 7:26:38 PM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: F430 presentation

What a shame, I can't believe they ruined what otherwise would have been an improvement on the 360 by giving the 430 that horrendous nose treatment. The earlier shots of the then-final nose (smiley face) were good enough, not great, but tolerable. This knee-jerk "retro" shark nose is an ugly abomination.

Good to hear that the interior is as improved as invitees are saying, and if the tech side of it is true (new exotic diff, 495HP, 3,200lbs, 19-inch wheels, improved suspension) then the car will definitely post competition-leading lap times at all the tracks we watch/visit, including against the Gallardo.

It will likely not surpass the Ford GT with these figures however, that will be the lone exception in terms of competitors that can best each of the 430's performance yardsticks (0-60, 0-100, lap times, etc).

Sounds like a great car for Ferrari, which they desperately needed in the face of so many new entries. Too bad it's ugly, the "Mexico" shots doomed it for me. It's probably a good thing I can cross it off the list, because after calling around to local dealers last week and trying to put a deposit down I was basically laughed off the phone.

"Uh, we're offering pre-order slots only to previous customers of ours only. Right now the wait time for first-time buyers is about six and half to seven years."

Stupid me for thinking this high high volume non-limited edition V8 sports car would be treated like any new Porsche, Lambo, Aston, or other exotic. Oops.

LOL, it's good but it's not that good. And Wayne if your price guess is right ($220k), that's absolutely insane. A used Murci is a lot more car for the same price, as is a Ford GT (factoring in markup on the GT).

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Jul 21, 2004 7:27:54 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12666, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Bad TT

Re: F430 presentation

Gallardo, watch out!

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Jul 21, 2004 7:34:36 PM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
rossi said:
Gallardo, watch out!

Isn't it the Ferrari fanboys that love to remind far-faster Lambo owners that it's not "all about the numbers"?

Considering the guppy nose on the 430, I'll turn that around for once and apply it to the F-car loyalists:

It's not all about the numbers.

The Gallardo is a much, and I can't stress this enough, MUCH better looking exotic than the 430 in the Mexico shots. Plus it's going to be about $50k cheaper than the $220k V8 from Ferrari, which is only money so not relevant at this level, but still something to think about. With $50k in mods, and 600HP, I'm sure a Gallardo owner wouldn't have much to fear from this car...Aside from getting sucked into the nose of it, heheh.

Each car has its pros and cons, with the Ford GT standing alone at the top of this food chain. Put $50k into a GT and you're looking at a reliable 800HP+. So it's all relative.

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Jul 21, 2004 7:38:26 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12666, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Mako88

Re: F430 presentation

In Antwort auf:
Mako88 said:
What a shame, I can't believe they ruined what otherwise would have been an improvement on the 360 by giving the 430 that horrendous nose treatment. The earlier shots of the then-final nose (smiley face) were good enough, not great, but tolerable. This knee-jerk "retro" shark nose is an ugly abomination.

So far I have read no comment of those who actually saw the car in person who were saying the new nose doesn't look good. Everyone said it fits the car well. So let's wait and see until we have seen it (e.g. Racing Days in September

).

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Jul 21, 2004 7:46:44 PM

Angshu: Newbie; Loc: Yorktown Heights, NY; Posts: 11, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 18, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
rossi said:

Correct farina! If you sharpen the edges, the whole back looks better, not as bland as you might think at first sight. I think it will be the same at the front, especially because the only pic is very blurry here and I guess there will be some edges and lines at the front as well. I'm sure the car will be astonishing in real (can't wait ).

Hmm... yes, I liked the rear end even before this, and now I love it even more (nice work Farina!). The "baby Enzo" thing seems to work here, in my opinion... let's hope you're right about the front too (although I still believe the smiley would've been perfect for this car's angular features...)

But 7 yrs waiting time... is that a joke? And I could never understand why first-timers are *always* given last preference, it's bl**dy unfair

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Jul 21, 2004 8:01:36 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12666, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Mako88

Re: F430 presentation

In Antwort auf:
Mako88 said:
In Antwort auf:
rossi said:
Gallardo, watch out!

Isn't it the Ferrari fanboys that love to remind far-faster Lambo owners that it's not "all about the numbers"?

Considering the guppy nose on the 430, I'll turn that around for once and apply it to the F-car loyalists:

It's not all about the numbers.

The Gallardo is a much, and I can't stress this enough, MUCH better looking exotic than the 430 in the Mexico shots. Plus it's going to be about $50k cheaper than the $220k V8 from Ferrari, which is only money so not relevant at this level, but still something to think about. With $50k in mods, and 600HP, I'm sure a Gallardo owner wouldn't have much to fear from this car...Aside from getting sucked into the nose of it, heheh.

Each car has its pros and cons, with the Ford GT standing alone at the top of this food chain. Put $50k into a GT and you're looking at a reliable 800HP+. So it's all relative.

Listen: IMO the Gallardo is a really tough competiton to the Ferrari V8 model, the first real threat after the Porsche TT and even more than the Porsche.
Yes, it's not all about numbers (also P-people like to argue like that) but in times of power war and ridiculously raising hp-numbers sportscar producers have to react or sooner or later you will be ignored by your customers.

Which one out of the two - F430 of Gallardo - is the better looking car, we can't say yet and we will have to wait till we see both in person, next to eachother. And if you're complaining about the new nose, what about that bland, boring back of the Gallardo? You see, to each his own, it's all a matter of personal taste.

Finally, the Modena is cheaper here in Europe, so I can't see how a F430 should be more expensive than the Gallardo? I guess it will be even slightly below the price of a Gallardo.

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Jul 21, 2004 8:02:01 PM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
rossi said:
So far I have read no comment of those who actually saw the car in person who were saying the new nose doesn't look good. Everyone said it fits the car well. So let's wait and see until we have seen it (e.g. Racing Days in September ).

Of coure not, the people that attended the intro yesterday are die-hard confirmed customers that would purchase the next thing coming from Ferrari even if it was a VW Bug.

Plus there's a certain amount of people that think every sportscar that's "new" is "fantastic!" Something about the exotic look makes fans suseptible to lapses in critical thinking. We're seeing that with the 997 zealots, who think its design is "stunning" and "so much better" than the 996, while every other normal sportscar fan who has seen the 997 says, "so where is the pic of the new 911 you promised, this is the old one."

But of course the proof will be in the pudding in real life, and the car can't be fully judged by just the pic.

No matter what spin people put on it though, there is no way that the rounded air intakes match or flow with the square rear. No way possible. The first front bumper was clearly designed as a part of the entire car. The second bumper was clearly "added" later to evoke nostalgia, likely over the fierce objections of the person that penned the original design.

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Jul 21, 2004 8:11:13 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12666, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Mako88

Re: F430 presentation

In Antwort auf:
Mako88 said:
Of coure not, the people that attended the intro yesterday are die-hard confirmed customers that would purchase the next thing coming from Ferrari even if it was a VW Bug.

Plus there's a certain amount of people that think every sportscar that's "new" is "fantastic!" Something about the exotic look makes fans suseptible to lapses in critical thinking. We're seeing that with the 997 zealots, who think its design is "stunning" and "so much better" than the 996, while every other normal sportscar fan who has seen the 997 says, "so where is the pic of the new 911 you promised, this is the old one."

But of course the proof will be in the pudding in real life, and the car can't be fully judged by just the pic.

No matter what spin people put on it though, there is no way that the rounded air intakes match or flow with the square rear. No way possible. The first front bumper was clearly designed as a part of the entire car. The second bumper was clearly "added" later to evoke nostalgia, likely over the fierce objections of the person that penned the original design.

Well, I admit you may be right. Seems as if Ferrari tries to combine different designs at front and back or as I said in case of the Enzo, looks like there were two people who never talked to eachother, one designed the back, one the front and then they put that all together.

Anyway, I have trust in my dealer to whom I will talk to tomorrow. He really is very honest and doesn't see things through Ferrari-red-tinted-lenses, as proved before. So I will wait and listen what he has to say.

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Jul 21, 2004 8:13:32 PM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
rossi said:
Which one out of the two - F430 of Gallardo - is the better looking car, we can't say yet and we will have to wait till we see both in person, next to eachother. And if you're complaining about the new nose, what about that bland, boring back of the Gallardo? You see, to each his own, it's all a matter of personal taste.

The Gallardo's rear end is fine, only F-car fanboys object to it. No car show or event I've been to, not ONE, has the normal sportscar fan had anything to say negative about it. Only the F-car loyalists perpetuate that there's something wrong with it. The Gallardo's rear end is fine.

Quote:
Finally, the Modena is cheaper here in Europe, so I can't see how a F430 should be more expensive than the Gallardo? I guess it will be even slightly below the price of a Gallardo.

This is where you lost me, and likely the rest of the group. Lets just say that the 430 certainly is not going to be cheaper than the Gallardo, and agree to disagree. It's not worth the typing to explain that not only will it likely be more expensive than the G on the street (not MSRP as F-car fanboys love to quote. No such thing as a Ferrari at MSRP unless your name is on the Enzo short list) it will be far more expensive.

Rossi, as evidenced by your Jeremy Clarkson oh-so-tired and unoriginal quote in the sig (not insulting you here, Clarkson is a clown) you're clearly an F-car fan. They can probably do no wrong in your book, and you actually "like" the orca-whale-lizard-eye'd 612 as well. If that's the case, there's no debating with you. I'm Italian, I know how deep the Tifosi loyalties can blind people.

For me, the 430 is a great car, it has the makings of another strong chapter in Ferrari lore from a performance and technical standpoint. But it's ugly, and much like the 355 to 360 change, in which people far prefer the look of the 355 in polls, people will wind up far preferring the 360 to the 430 in terms of looks.

That's not progress to me and I'm tired of it. L-cars have gotten better looking over the past six years, not worse. The Murci looks better than a 6.0, which looks better than an SV, etc. Same could be said about the Gallardo, which many L-car owners actually prefer in terms of design to the Murci.

Can't say the same for Ferrari, they're all about volume and not offending anyone with their most recent designs, with the exception of the Enzo. The Enzo showed that when it comes to a car not critical for Ferrari's financial survival, they have some balls. But on their volume build-10,000-of-them 430, they went nice and safe, much safer than the Gallardo for instance.

I miss the old Ferrari.

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Jul 21, 2004 8:20:54 PM

Bad TT: Co-Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 185, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: F430 presentation

for starters a 6%increase in September.

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Jul 21, 2004 8:21:33 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: Mako88

Re: F430 presentation

The front and rear seemed to have been designed by two different people in two different millennia

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Jul 21, 2004 8:28:53 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12666, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: farina

Re: F430 presentation

Farina, could you do the same with the front pic (then you will see the "blind" spots in the teardrop air vents near the position where the number plate will be) and colour these two inner spots red? I guess the front will lool like a variation of the 360 then...

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Jul 21, 2004 8:52:30 PM

farina: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 437, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 4, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: F430 presentation

Rossi... like this one?

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Jul 21, 2004 8:59:01 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8810, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: farina

Re: F430 presentation

Thanks farina

.

What are those red plates (fin looking) in the air vents?

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Jul 21, 2004 9:56:40 PM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Mako88

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
Mako88 said:

The Gallardo's rear end is fine, only F-car fanboys object to it. No car show or event I've been to, not ONE, has the normal sportscar fan had anything to say negative about it. Only the F-car loyalists perpetuate that there's something wrong with it. The Gallardo's rear end is fine.

Gotta disagree here bigtime. I love the Countach and Diablo, but these new Audi-Lambos are a huge step backwards. The Murci and Gallardo just have the basic, boring played out "wedge" shape that was used in the 80's. Lambo is afraid to try anything different and when Ferrari does Lambo fans complain lol.....whatever.....I'd take any of them.

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Jul 21, 2004 10:29:27 PM

Bad TT: Co-Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 185, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: F430 presentation

nick
is this 490 hp confirmed?

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Jul 22, 2004 1:14:07 AM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: Bad TT

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
Bad TT said:
nick
is this 490 hp confirmed?

Assuming that the answer is yes, I took the figures disclosed today (495HP, 340ft/lbs torque, 3,200lbs wet, 4.2L V8, .32 Cd, 19-inch tires) and did some software simulation modeling.

The results for the 430 were as follows:

3.95 : 0-60MPH
9.20 : 0-100MPH
21.4 : 0-150MPH
12.18 @ 118MPH 1/4 Mile

These figures match almost to the 10th of a second in some cases, those of real world Gallardos (identical 0-150MPH times in fact) that have been tested with optical gear, and of course both sets of numbers are dramatically faster compared to a base 360.

Looks like Ferrari has just barely achieved their performance goal for the 430, to at least equal the Gallardo's level of performance without infringing on the performance of models higher up the food chain (575M, 612, 600 Imola, etc).

And if the software figures above pan out, along with some help from the exotic diff in the car that we don't know much about yet, the 430 should also be dramatically faster than the 360CS on the track.

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Jul 22, 2004 1:48:36 AM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: Mako88

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
Mako88 said:
Quote:
Bad TT said:
nick
is this 490 hp confirmed?

Assuming that the answer is yes, I took the figures disclosed today (495HP, 340ft/lbs torque, 3,200lbs wet, 4.2L V8, .32 Cd, 19-inch tires) and did some software simulation modeling.

The results for the 430 were as follows:

3.95 : 0-60MPH
9.20 : 0-100MPH
21.4 : 0-150MPH
12.18 @ 118MPH 1/4 Mile

These figures match almost to the 10th of a second in some cases, those of real world Gallardos (identical 0-150MPH times in fact) that have been tested with optical gear, and of course both sets of numbers are dramatically faster compared to a base 360.

Looks like Ferrari has just barely achieved their performance goal for the 430, to at least equal the Gallardo's level of performance without infringing on the performance of models higher up the food chain (575M, 612, 600 Imola, etc).

And if the software figures above pan out, along with some help from the exotic diff in the car that we don't know much about yet, the 430 should also be dramatically faster than the 360CS on the track.

It's a 4.3 liter V8. And Ferrari is saying 0-62 in 4.0 sec, so 0-60 should be 3.8/9 sec according to Ferrari who are always conserative, I'm thinking 3.7 sec or so easy....the CS does it in 4.2 sec as it is.

And I have never seen a Gallardo test better then 4.1/and mid 12's.......so the F430 will easily beat it....
Not to mention it has RWD, not that damed AWD.... :-)

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Jul 22, 2004 3:01:04 AM

Mako88: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 41, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2004; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: F430 presentation

Quote:
BluCamSS said:It's a 4.3 liter V8. And Ferrari is saying 0-62 in 4.0 sec, so 0-60 should be 3.8/9 sec according to Ferrari who are always conserative, I'm thinking 3.7 sec or so easy....the CS does it in 4.2 sec as it is.

And I have never seen a Gallardo test better then 4.1/and mid 12's.......so the F430 will easily beat it....
Not to mention it has RWD, not that damed AWD.... :-)

Then I guess you missed the R/T piece on the Gallardo that has it at 12.3 @ 117mph?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/2272004172749.pdf

Or perhaps the Car and Driver piece on the Gallardo that had it at 12.4 @ 118mph?

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=7699&page_number=5

And what's the 0-150MPH figure for the Gallardo on that Car and Driver test report page say?

Uh-huh, and what 0-150MPH figure did the software predict for the 430 above in my original post?

Uh-huh.

Thanks for the expert analysis and commentary that evidently comes from a lack of any real world experience with the cars or an ability to interpret test figures.

For the rest of the crowd it looks like Ferrari achieved their goal, and can match the Gallardo stride for stride, even beyond 100MPH where the Lambo's V10 tends to widen the gap between itself and the competition.

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Jul 22, 2004 3:58:03 AM

dhk: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 12, 2004; Reply to: farina

Re: F430 presentation

Farina, could you remove the center of the bumper on the mexico pic, so we should have a better idea of how the 430 will look like.I think the red piece is a photoshop add, as it looks like an aerodynamical stupidity, and doesn't allow the air to flow under the car...

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Jul 22, 2004 5:06:09 AM

dhk: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 12, 2004; Reply to: farina

Re: F430 presentation

Ron, i tried an explanation based on the modena's aerodynamics....

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Jul 22, 2004 5:47:52 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12666, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: farina

Re: F430 presentation

In Antwort auf:
farina said:
Rossi... like this one?

Exactly! Thanks Farina! IMO these parts look good when being coloured.

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Lambo	Huracan Evo (2019 Facelift)	7/4/22 8:00 AM M3ike	38257	291
BMW M	M3/M4 getting...	6/18/22 6:17 PM Topspeed	33704	251
Others	Valkyrie final design?	4/28/23 2:45 AM Rossi	33627	219
Porsche USA	992 GTS	12/5/22 9:56 AM boubou	25477	156
AMG	Bought a muscle car...	3/26/23 3:31 PM Whoopsy	25361	303
Porsche	Top Gear presented by Chris Harris...	11/1/22 12:55 PM Whoopsy	23400	136

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