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    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    reginos:

    Think of it: Ferrari  is a car that costs a fortune to buy and even more to maintain properly, it is not the fastest, it is not practical or usable at all and it is not extremely safe under less than ideal conditions. It attracts attention often for the wrong reasons and carries a social stigma in many places. What is the excuse then for buying such a car? Passion!

    Very good statement Smiley

    Summarise it all, IMO.Smiley


    --

    ONUR

    09 Audi TTS Ibis

    07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

     


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    Crash:
    Ferdie:
    trip:

    Racerx I really don't have the energy to refute your argument properly as I'm still at work but there are so many errors within it, its comical. You say the cars look or sound better (subjective) and perform as well or better (incorrect). A Ferrari Scuderia performs slightly (1 second on 'Ring) better, looks and sounds great perhaps better or worse depending on OPINION, costs double, less reliable, not as safe, equally  involving. Lambo 560, faster in a straight line, much slower on 'ring, horrible brakes (several reviews), costs $80-100k more, less reliable, less involving, not as safe, looks sounds great OPINION. AM V12 (or DBS, either one) costs $50k + more, slower in straight line despite more power, much slower on track, less reliable, less safe (did not originally pass U.S. safety tests), looks sounds good OPINION. Separate opinions from facts, try to refute my performance claims. Passion may be based soley on sound and looks to you, thats fine (poserish). Passion to me includes these attributes but is more weighted towards performance and driver satisfaction, ask pretty much anyone to find a fault in the GT3 in these categories. I really don't know why I am arguing with someone who believes the 928 is the pinacle of automotive acheivement, it is very frustrating but I am right, you are wrong, that AM is a GT1 car the 911 is in GT2(are you serious?) I am tired.

    Trip,

    you´re fighting windmills here... Smiley

     

    Agreed.


    That really is the best way to put it lolSmiley  But like Don Quixote here I go again.

    Racerx, never said the GT3 looked or sounded better than any of those cars, only that it looked and sounded great, which it does. Why would you compare a Zonda or AM one 77 to a car that costs 1/10th as much. You can't make an engineering comparison and take price completely out of the picture. Lets take a hyper-exotic produced by Porshce. When the CGT came out, it had superior engineering and lap times to any car (including Mac F1, basically on par with Enzo for half the price when new).

    Unlike yours, my comparisons have always been logical. An AM V12 costs over $200K and has a V12 with over 500hp. It is a great GT car but is not on par with the GT3 from an engineering or performance standpoint which is proven by not only faster lap times for GT3 but faster straight line acceleration despite the HP deficit. The LP560-4 is 12 seconds (significant) slower on 'ring despite much higher price and large HP advantage. The best comparison is the Ferrari Scuderia because like the GT3 it was engineered for all out performance. While the Scud is faster in a straight line, has over 500hp, weighs less than 3000lbs and costs $300,000+, both cars lap the 'ring within 1 second of each other (not to mention GT2 laping 7 seconds faster). Porsche was able to acheive the same results with less and make the car more useable and reliable, that is quality engineering. ZR1 time was the factory time, supertest acheived somewhere in the 7:30's or 7:40's. I am citing lap times because they are the only way I can think of to measure sports car engineering, not cool looking subframes or fancy construction methods that just cost more, I want results. You seem to believe that Porsche would be incapable of producing a car like the Zonda or 599, look at the CGT a car that is 5 years old yet still has equal or better performance and engineering. Wait for the next halo car from Porsche (hopefully here soon!). Take off my shaded glasses. Well my arguments are rooted in facts (performance figures) yours are your own opinions mixed with blind 928 fandom. "The 928 is the most beautiful car ever produced" great if thats your opinion, don't expect many to share it. The 928 was a good/great car for its time, that time is over, and the 951 was better Smiley


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    You keep changing your stance everytime you post, probably because you have been wrong since you opened your mouth. 

    You brought up the GT3 when I was talking looks and sound and mentioning these other cars, then you wanted to talk engineering, now you want to talk BS lap times. Watch the video the ZR-1 is 7:25.

     

    Your words dude, POSING. I'm sure all those posers would rather be driving a gt3 at a track somewhere. 

     

    Here's a result for you

     

     

    I've wasted enough time with you and ferdie, 


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    italians.....label on the outside

    germans.....label on the inside

    americans......label across the sleeve


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    My stance has not changed, look at the original argument. You said Porsche had lost its engineering touch, and that it does not build a special looking or sounding car. I used the GT3 because I think it looks great, most people think it sounds great, and Porsche has proven its engineering ability by acheiving the same or better performance than the other cars I mention with less hp and less cost, yet still reliable etc. with a better driving experience. Lap times are not bs, they do not lie, why do you think every serious car enthusiast cares to discuss them? Or manufacturers strive to improve them? I guess you know better than them. You still do not have an answer to my arguments and bring in random videos or cars costing $1,000,000 to prove your point, which I am at a loss to tie down because it keeps changing. If you actually drove any of these cars I'd give you some credit but you drive a 928 auto from 1980's and have no idea what you are talking about. You have no yardstick, and you wont be buying any of the cars discussed in the future so I doubt Porsche, Ferrari, AM or Lambo really give a sh!t about your opinion, I sure don't despite the time I've wasted arguing against it. I thought that 951>928 statement would get to you lol. Got to be productive today, I've had enough.


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    reginos:
    Passion is strong emotion that leads someone to immensely desire something. Nothing cerebral about it.

    Ferraris (and other similar cars) are about passion in the sense that the ownership decision does not relate to the brain or the intellect at all and it is not reached using rational criteria.

    Think of it: Ferrari  is a car that costs a fortune to buy and even more to maintain properly, it is not the fastest, it is not practical or usable at all and it is not extremely safe under less than ideal conditions. It attracts attention often for the wrong reasons and carries a social stigma in many places. What is the excuse then for buying such a car? Passion!

    Reginos, you are the first who's ever explained to me what people mean with that, thanks. And now I understand why I never understood it: For me everything you wrote about ferrari, also goes for 911's: I can look at that car forever, enjoying the simple yet strong design lines, the power that radiates from those wheelarches, etc. I just HAVE to have one, one day. Ferrari's on the other hand, would be really awesome to be able to drive one, one time. However, I would wear sunglasses, and prefer tinted windows, as I find them needless drama queens, shouting "look at me!!!", something I really don't like.

    So, what goes for most people, is different with me: they're both relatively useless, overpriced, and carry a stigma where I live. (so both would be only bought if you have a passion for them, in my view). However, I love porsches, and Ferrari's not so much. The fact that a porsche is actually a bit useable in everyday life is just a nice addition.


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    Any members who have owned (or own) examples of each manufacturer who can add to this hot (but I must admit pointless) debate?  One saying that the other car is crap is just being ridiculous.

    Please remember Jeremy Clarkson's opening comment - you have 2 types of enthusiasts - the Ferrari lovers and the Porsche lovers.  That just says it all - one won't be able to convince the other at all.  (Can you convince a Man-u fan that Arsenal is better?!)  Even though Clarkson admitted the Turbo was a superb practical, everyday supercar, and he loved it, it will still not make him into a Porsche-phile. 

    I for one would love to own a Ferrari at some point of my life just to know what all the fuss is about!! 

    Incidentally, my cousin has a 348 and now has bought a brand new 911 Turbo, and though he loves his Ferrari more than anything, he just ends up driving the Turbo more!


    --



    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    Arshad:

    I for one would love to own a Ferrari at some point of my life just to know what all the fuss is about!! 

    Better to learn from the mistakes of others Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    reginos:
    Arshad:

    I for one would love to own a Ferrari at some point of my life just to know what all the fuss is about!! 

    Better to learn from the mistakes of others Smiley

    On the other hand, you only live once and life is so short. Smiley

    You can't blame people for wanting to make a few mistakes themselves if they have some fun in the process.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    Arshad:

    Incidentally, my cousin has a 348 and now has bought a brand new 911 Turbo, and though he loves his Ferrari more than anything, he just ends up driving the Turbo more!

    But would he appreciate just how good the Turbo really is if he didn't also have the Ferrari?  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    LOL, Reginos, don't get me wrong!
    I do understand it when people love ferrari's! It's just not my cup of thea. (And I get a bit cranky when they say Ferrari is "better" )

    No pun intended. I would actually love to have a pax ride in your ferrari when that day comes!


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    fritz:

    On the other hand, you only live once and life is so short. Smiley

    You can't blame people for wanting to make a few mistakes themselves if they have some fun in the process.  Smiley

    +1 Smiley
     


    --

    ONUR

    09 Audi TTS Ibis

    07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

     


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    Porsche man through and through.


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    racerx:

    That ^^ might have been true 20 years ago but not now, Ferraris F1 program has really benefited the road cars and they kick butt on Porsche in the engineering area. No dispute.

     

    And because Porsche does not make an exceptional sounding or looking car currently they try to fall back on the engineering tag. Sorry but the fact is wendell lived off the past engineering and racing success in the pursuit of money and then ENGINEERED the biggest stock market disaster in Auto history.

     

    The CGT is the only saving grace and that should have had paddles.

    You seem to be very opinionated and negative about Porsches, what do you drive? Smiley


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    SmileySmiley


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    ridleyguy:
    racerx:

    That ^^ might have been true 20 years ago but not now, Ferraris F1 program has really benefited the road cars and they kick butt on Porsche in the engineering area. No dispute.

     

    And because Porsche does not make an exceptional sounding or looking car currently they try to fall back on the engineering tag. Sorry but the fact is wendell lived off the past engineering and racing success in the pursuit of money and then ENGINEERED the biggest stock market disaster in Auto history.

     

    The CGT is the only saving grace and that should have had paddles.

    You seem to be very opinionated and negative about Porsches, what do you drive? Smiley

    And you seem to be very new here and lacking knowledge. And your conclusion could not be further from the truth.
     


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

     "Porsche does not make an exceptional sounding or looking car" is a statement that I think most people would consider to be negative.  I see that you do not like to have to support your assertions but instead make personal comments about someone you don't know anything about. This is a social site, but in a business context I don't think that would fly. 


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    It's also a statement that though containing an element of opinion is shared by so many here and by most of  the experienced and respected auto journalists. AND BE CLEAR, THAT STATEMENT EXPLICITLY APPLIED TO CURRENT MODELS AND EXCEPTED THE CGT and of course my car.

    I could post endless videos here backing up my statement and I could also post a stream of statements from other long term members here saying the same thing regarding sound and/or excitement lacking often with their own vehicles.

    Its because I have been a Porsche fan for so long that I have the first hand knowledge to make the statements I do. I made the effort to go to Formula 1 races in the 80's to see the Tag turbo race, stood next to the car and Lauda between practice and qualifying with a pit pass. Driven Porsches since the 80's.

    Look at my history here, see the threads I started about the 917, the 962, Porsche F1 and world endurance racing domination. See my record here regarding the CGT!  Watch the video's I posted. Did I ever call the 911 crap? I believe I have always said it's a nice car.

     

    I am a realist, I deal in facts. I don't blurt out unsupportable statements based on emotion. The simple fact is that the 911, all versions, just does not make a great sound in comparison to so many other marques or its siblings the CGT or 928. FACT. Only a fanboy would dispute that. And some might say they want a subdued sound, to appear sophisticated and reserved, but you don't slap a huge wing on the back or paint it in day glo colors with decals.

     

    I can buy any 911 for cash but I drive what I drive because of passion. My history with porsche is as long and solid as anyones. My car and CGT's can be heard blocks away, yet I have seen a 997 turbo, 997 gt3, and regular 997's pass by me on my bicycle rides in the last month and I could not hear them above the other few family cars nearby. That's a fact, not a putdown, unless you are bothered by that observation.

     

    I must be reading this page wrong because it appears a little murky as to who is leading, I am no expert on this level of racing, but it appears to be a series for all different marques including a GT3 variant. 

    http://www.fiagt3.com/points.php?season=2009&class=GT3&type=team&event=1

     

    And you are right Rennteam is a social site that has always been a place with mature people who appreciate all cars NOT a hangout for fanboys and sycophants. I like all porsches (except the pan exterior) to varying degrees.

     

    I guess my only problem with Porsche is that I want it to be better, lets watch Piech.

     


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    "It's also a statement that though containing an element of opinion is shared by so many here and by most of  the experienced and respected auto journalists. AND BE CLEAR, THAT STATEMENT EXPLICITLY APPLIED TO CURRENT MODELS AND EXCEPTED THE CGT and of course my car.

    I could post endless videos here backing up my statement and I could also post a stream of statements from other long term members here saying the same thing regarding sound and/or excitement lacking often with their own vehicles."

    Please post one video or review with any negative coments on the GT3. I agree most Porsches have lost their special apeal, that was never part of my argument. You have tried to confuse or expand my argument to support your conclusions. Mine has always been very clear, the GT3 looks, sounds, and drives extremely well, it is special in these regards. Go watch Chris Harris' DR review of the 997.2 GT3 and tell me it doesn't sound special. He obviously thinks it does. That is his opinion, I share it, and so do many others. That you don't agree and think it sounds bland does not constitute a fact. I have also cited the GT3's favorable 'ring times and performance figures compared with higher priced competitors in order to support my argument that Porsche can still engineer as well or better than any competing marque. With less power and cost, and with better reliability and useability. You have yet to speak to these FACTS.

    "And you are right Rennteam is a social site that has always been a place with mature people who appreciate all cars NOT a hangout for fanboys and sycophants."

    What would you call bringing the 928 into every argument no matter the relevance. You are the biggest fanboy on this site. I want Porsche to be better as much as you do, I am not blind to its shortcomings, I am also not blind to fantastic cars like the GT3 and will give Porsche credit where it is due.


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    Trip how many times are you going to be wrong before you either change or be quiet???????????????????  

     

    It took me less than 1 minute from reading your post to finding all that needs to be said; watch the conclusion. Its about passion - looks and sound, not seconds around some track.

     

      

     

    and thats the RS version not the street GT3. 

    I never said anything bad about the GT3 performance as a standalone product. Just said it looks like a 911 with a wing and the sound is mundane compared to other cars that you say are for posers.

    I could litter this thread with videos from Tiff, saying the Mclaren F1 is the all time car, that he prefers the AM V12  Vantage over any ferrari, and in general ferrari over any porsche .........................................

    but whats the point, my original point stands - There are so many more cars out there that sound and look better and yet still perform well.

     

     

     


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

     sheer driving enjoyment - Tiff 

    posting this for everyone s enjoyment (there's many more)

     


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    That is a 996, and look it performs as well as the Ferrari costing double with more power! That car's lap time continues to sit on the TG show lap time board. Pretty respectable after 8 years considering it has 380hp and is based on a car from the 90's. Read the TG comparo with the AMV12, 997.2 GT3 (the car I have been talking about this whole time!),  and other exotics. Look at the lap times, read the comments, Stig and others prefer the GT3. My guess is Tiff would too if he drove them back to back. You cannot contribute any useful experience to this argument having never driven any of these cars. Obviously you prefer soft GTs (saying you're able to buy any 911 yet prefer a 928 auto ) so the GT3 will never apeal to you, its for sports car drivers. I think I'm done arguing with you, you won't address my arguments rather make statements like "shouldn't open your mouth, be quiet." My guess is you never won in debate class. Continue posting irrelevant videos and expressing your irrelevant opinion (for which I have less than zero respect). I apologize to other members for getting so heated (I know the mature thing to do is to ignore silly people) but I am very tired of 928 comparisons and other racerx nonsense on this otherwise great forum.


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    clarkson was never a porsche guy.....

    i for one like that posche is different form ferrari or lamborghini.

    for me the italian offerings are too loud and flashy. hence, i prefer the porsche route.

    yes, the turbo or gt2 could sound a bit better but i nevertheless prefer too quiet than too loud. i do not need/like the attention and dont have to let everyone know i've arrived minutes before i am actually there.

    do i respect ferrari and lambo for what they are ? hell i do ! great cars/toys.

    to each his own.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    trip you are a complete joke. you asked for a video you got it.

    Clarkson describes the GT3 RS as similiar to being towed on his face. He mentioned engineering superiority at least twice for ferrari. Many threads here on this very forum with 911 owners cautioning guys NOT to buy a GT3 for everyday driving, not to mention the RS. The Scud has just widened the gap.

    Clarksons opinion is THE relevant opinion here as his comments are the reason this thread exists.

    Very few want to drive a rock hard car for pleasure. You are now on ignore.

     

     

     

     

    @ Intouch - I agree with "to each their own", 


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    fritz:
    reginos:
    Arshad:

    I for one would love to own a Ferrari at some point of my life just to know what all the fuss is about!! 

    Better to learn from the mistakes of others Smiley

    On the other hand, you only live once and life is so short. Smiley

    You can't blame people for wanting to make a few mistakes themselves if they have some fun in the process.  Smiley

    perfect way of putting it. Smiley


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    My first p-car 997s

     

    my second p-car 997GT3 RS

     

    now  my my current  sports car

     

    My opinion about  Ferrari vs Porsche

    about Ferrari:

    1- Ferrari is greart show car;

    2- has a fantastic engine sound;

    3- very nice design;

    4- all the people in the street loves to see a Ferrari; 

    about Porsche:

    1- is super car for track days;

    2-has a very good performance;

    3- it is a tractor of so resistant;

    My conclusion:

    Porsche is a better car for performance and track days and Ferrari is a super show car, i prefer more Porsche because i like performance, then my next super car will be 997Turbo PDK or may be 998TT, this is my opinion of owner!!!

    ah yes 458 is a cool car, has a great performance, but will be very very expensive too and 458 wil be more fast of 997TTpdk in n-ring for example?

    in the line the dates are very similar:

    Specs

    Discipline 458 Italia 997 Turbo facelift
    Max speed 201.5 m/h (325 km/h) 193.44 m/h (312 km/h)
    0-100 km/h acceleration 3.4 3.1
    0-160 km/h acceleration - -
    0-200 km/h acceleration 10.4 10.8
    0-300 km/h acceleration - 41.9
    Quarter mile time 11.3 -
    Power/weight ratio 0.3 0.23

    http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=_Ferrari_458_Italia&car2=_Porsche_997_Turbo_facelift

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     


    --


    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    Thanks for your post.

    What do you mean by:

    3- it is a tractor of so resistant;


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    @Reginos - I guess he means it's as reliable as a tractor!
    --
     



    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    Arshad:

    @Reginos - I guess he means it's as reliable as a tractor!

    Porsche is very very very trustworthy mechanicallySmiley

     


     

     


    --

    Re: Clarkson's Turbo vs Ferrari comparison

    PorSchelover1:
    Arshad:

    @Reginos - I guess he means it's as reliable as a tractor!

    Porsche is very very very trustworthy mechanicallySmiley

    Thanks! I agree.

    Also the rest of the components (body, suspension, electrics, interior trim etc) are very robust and long life even when put to daily use.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


     
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