Jul 7, 2005 4:10:37 PM
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LondonGuy
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Jul 7, 2005 4:14:41 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Quote:
yarub1 said:Quote:
SoCal Alan said:Quote:
yarub1 said:
Please keep you business within your borders and I am sure that you will end up like Switzerland with nothing but prosperaty and no wars.
Maybe we should have kept business within our own borders in 1991 too.
Yes! and in 1980 when the US supported Saddam attack against Iran with no limits and turned him into the monster we all know.
Maybe we shouldn't have supported Russia in 1944, either. Do we get blamed for the cold war too? Look, something tells me if we did nothing in 1991 and let Saddam invade Saudi Arabia, you would be the first one crying for help.
Jul 7, 2005 4:16:51 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
amazon23 said:
For who did you vote at the 2 last presidential elections?
Amazon - remember that only half the voters chose Bush (less than half the first election)
Lame point Grant. In 1996 Clinton only got 49%, and in 1992 he got 43%. U.S. presidential elections RARELY pull a 50%+ majority for the winner when an independent, or green party, or reform party, or what-have-you sticks their nose into the fray. Don't let facts get in the way of your rhetoric guys (sarcasm...)
Speaking of worthless and garbage rhetoric, the whole "The U.S. is just interested in the oil" thing is a laughable and ignorant-of-the-facts notion. It's a convenient sound byte to feed to those who don't bother to dig further. The preservation of the Iraqi oil fields is of tantamount importance to the future of any stable Iraq. Obviously we would protect them, otherwise they would just be another poor nation on the U.S. and U.N. dole into perpetuity. But we have no "control" or "ownership" of them, they belong to Iraq. If we've got so much control over all that damn oil, how come my price at the pump has done nothing but skyrocket since we've invaded, and how do you explain China??
Isolationism is shortsighted and foolhardy, and doesn't pass the first five minutes of enlightened debate. It's the main reason that the Libertarian party will remain a lunatic fringe rather than a viable movement, which is a shame, as they have so many other good and realistic ideas. But just like the quagmire the Dems have been suffering lately, they continue to allow the moon-bats to run the show and set the agenda.
If everybody would open their eyes and ears, and drop their preconceived bias, they would realize that the U.S. did not invade Iraq as a direct answer to 911. 911 marked a decided change in overall strategy by the U.S., whereby we stopped sitting on our hands and negotiating with those who would see us dead, and we went on the offensive. Not only to hunt down and destroy those who attacked us on 911, but to aggressively begin a strategy of change and reform throughout the Middle East. Without real change, we are doomed to continue down the same road that we've been traveling for thousands of years. World peace won't happen by everybody going back to their countries, building walls, and sending each other greeting cards on the holidays. Evil will always take advantage of sleeping lions, period. There has to be a power balance in place to achieve peace, as tough as that might be to swallow. Iraq was a strategically smart choice, from a military standpoint. It's the best place to set up camp and begin the process of Democracizing the region. It also, conveniently, draws the efforts and resources of alot of terror organizations. Don't for a minute think that, if the U.S. had left Iraq alone, that terrorist attacks would cease, and terrorists would be playing gin rummy waiting for something new to do.
Maybe the U.S. policy and actions haven't been perfect, but at least we're trying to DO SOMETHING that will hopefully improve the world long-term, not just sit at home and arm-chair quarterback. Basically the Iraq invasion was a warning signal to all outlaw regimes, that lions around the world, including the U.S. and Great Britain, were awake. Why not N. Korea? Well, gee, wouldn't it be nice to defeat all our enemies at once?? Iraq was the right place to start, and our resources are presently tapped, obviously.
As for taking stabs at America's past sins, give me a break. That's about as relevant as the price of tea in China. At least we're trying to LEARN from our past mistakes, and our history, so that we are not doomed to repeat it, as so many countries who got mowed-over by Hitler should remember.
Alot of blood is being shed in Iraq, and today, in London. My hope is that my grandchildren will be able to recognize that sacrifice, and live in a better world for it, a world that resulted in LESS bloodshed overall, long-term. I was just reminded last night in a documentary how France lost over 1 million men in WW1. Just France alone. Put that in context, and then rethink the effort for eventual economic and religious stability that we would like to achieve, some how, some way, in Iraq, and eventually throughout the Middle East. We don't want to take over, we've got enough to worry about here, and we have a LONG HISTORY that shows clearly that imperialism is not the modus operandi of the U.S.. Just ask Germany and Japan.
RC, I thought your post was extremely well-thought and balanced and accurate. Good reading. Thanks
To pull out of Iraq at this point, would be insane. It would prove that terrorism works, that insurgency works, and would doom peaceful nations to decades of victimization and coercion until another power would rise up to confront the violence. There will always be utopian philosophers who want to think it's just as easy as everybody putting down the guns and the bombs and holding hands and singing kum bay ah, but hey.... If that worked, it would have been done long ago. There's good, and there's evil, and there's everybody in-between. The struggle will ALWAYS exist among men, it's just a matter of finding the best way to control it. That puts power into one group's hands, and another group will feel controlled. There's no perfect solution. That's the problem with people. They don't realize that perfection does not exist in our mortal world. You're gonna die, no matter how you slice it.
O.K., I'm done preaching!!!!
My thoughts and prayers extend to those who were injured or killed in London.
Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Its always best to appease and pay tribute to tyrants and terrorists.
That way no one can be bothered with news that problems arent being solved instantly,be saddened about loss of life from people fighting against them, or distrurbed by news of their victims.
I suppose its good news for many people to know that the Clinton administration rejected the opportunity to grab
Bin Laden in the Sudan over concern about kidnapping laws. Bin Ladens first attack on New York City was in 1993.Nobody in the Clinton administration bothered to visit after many were killed.
Later Clinton did launch a few small toy missiles at some rocks in the mountains,but he never had the desire to do much more than the bare minimum.
Sad that Hussein of Iraq is gone from power. He was such a jolly fellow who enjoyed his hobbies of sports events with Kuwaitis, dressing up suicide bombers, playing cat and mouse with UN weapons inspectors to make his neighbors think he still had birthday suprises for them and making things merry and posh in the middle east.
Bin Laden must be just misunderstood. Im sure that Al Gore or John Kerry could have just called him on the phone and talked him onto retiring to a Alpine Golf Course by now.
Maybe Ted Kennedy could have met with Bin Laden and told him teary eyed Irish stories over shots of Johnny Walker Red. Al Gore could have broadcast speeches to Bin Ladens people telling them that its better to by a Playstation game then another thirty rounds of AK ammo. John kerry Im sure would have done the same, or just put them to sleep with his speeches.
Spain sadly pulled out of Iraq. Their soldiers fought well
and even when 6 of them were out numbered and surrounded at a empty stretch of road they fought to the last man and the last bullet rather than surrender. As Spains new government
promised appeasement, they delivered and pulled out.
Like it or not, Bin Ladens desires and people are not limited by lines on maps.They gain most when the best intentions and sense of whats fair by their intended victims can be used as a weapon itself. His messages
are from centuries ago but meant for targets of today.
If people of today are annoyed by their lives being bothered by any efforts of defence or sacrifice, and
frustrated by not having all conflicts solved instantly
with a bureaucrats conference, I suggest they follow the course of appeasement, surrender or just pretend to not know what is going on or why. If you are frustrated that
there is no schedule or script for this conflict, thats too
bad, get over it, or surrender now so you wont be bothered by that anymore.
That way no one can be bothered with news that problems arent being solved instantly,be saddened about loss of life from people fighting against them, or distrurbed by news of their victims.
I suppose its good news for many people to know that the Clinton administration rejected the opportunity to grab
Bin Laden in the Sudan over concern about kidnapping laws. Bin Ladens first attack on New York City was in 1993.Nobody in the Clinton administration bothered to visit after many were killed.
Later Clinton did launch a few small toy missiles at some rocks in the mountains,but he never had the desire to do much more than the bare minimum.
Sad that Hussein of Iraq is gone from power. He was such a jolly fellow who enjoyed his hobbies of sports events with Kuwaitis, dressing up suicide bombers, playing cat and mouse with UN weapons inspectors to make his neighbors think he still had birthday suprises for them and making things merry and posh in the middle east.
Bin Laden must be just misunderstood. Im sure that Al Gore or John Kerry could have just called him on the phone and talked him onto retiring to a Alpine Golf Course by now.
Maybe Ted Kennedy could have met with Bin Laden and told him teary eyed Irish stories over shots of Johnny Walker Red. Al Gore could have broadcast speeches to Bin Ladens people telling them that its better to by a Playstation game then another thirty rounds of AK ammo. John kerry Im sure would have done the same, or just put them to sleep with his speeches.
Spain sadly pulled out of Iraq. Their soldiers fought well
and even when 6 of them were out numbered and surrounded at a empty stretch of road they fought to the last man and the last bullet rather than surrender. As Spains new government
promised appeasement, they delivered and pulled out.
Like it or not, Bin Ladens desires and people are not limited by lines on maps.They gain most when the best intentions and sense of whats fair by their intended victims can be used as a weapon itself. His messages
are from centuries ago but meant for targets of today.
If people of today are annoyed by their lives being bothered by any efforts of defence or sacrifice, and
frustrated by not having all conflicts solved instantly
with a bureaucrats conference, I suggest they follow the course of appeasement, surrender or just pretend to not know what is going on or why. If you are frustrated that
there is no schedule or script for this conflict, thats too
bad, get over it, or surrender now so you wont be bothered by that anymore.
Jul 7, 2005 4:17:34 PM
- Holminator
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Re: SCREW Al Qaeda - Hope everyone in London is ok.....
Quote:
LondonGuy said:
Now is not the time for politics.
Just contemplate all the tourists, innocents, foreigners, decent working people that died today in my city.
Thank all of you for posting your political views on al-Qa'ida and the various on-going wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other locations. It's really good for me to see the many different views. Thank you for respecting each other as well. To the good people in Saudi Arabia, you'd be surprised how many people in the US Government understand your view and agree with you! Of course, we all have a job to do in a very apolitical manner where I sit. More views expressed please! It's as good a diversion as talking about how beautiful Jenna is IMHO.
Jul 7, 2005 4:26:38 PM
- Grant
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Quote:
69bossnine said:Lame point Grant. In 1996 Clinton only got 49%, and in 1992 he got 43%. U.S. presidential elections RARELY pull a 50%+ majority for the winner when an independent, or green party, or reform party, or what-have-you sticks their nose into the fray. Don't let facts get in the way of your rhetoric guys (sarcasm...)
In the case of Clinton, I don't believe he ever received FEWER votes than any one of the challengers (Gore rec'd more votes than Bush - no I don't need a lecture on the electoral college). I don't point this out to distance myself from my president - just to remind people from other countries of some of the details of our recent elections.
Jul 7, 2005 4:29:20 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Jul 7, 2005 4:29:47 PM
- Holminator
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Re: SCREW Al Qaeda - Hope everyone in London is ok.....
In all my travels throughout the butt holes of the world, one thing rings true: Our species is the most violent on this planet. I have not found one particular region of the world that is more prone to violence than another. Sad. I guess we have to wait either for the Second Coming or for a bunch of space aliens to roll up on the planet before we realize how stupid all the infighting is. Of course, I will not be the first to put down my weapon. I am as much a part of the problem as those who desire more killing in retaliation. Al-Qa'ida's goal is to be the spark that ignites a World War between Christians and Muslims, between Hindi and Muslims, between Jews and Muslims. A 1000 years later and no one has learned. There must be a different path. It sounds trite, but what would Jesus do in this situation? What would the Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) do?
Discuss, discuss. Hahahaha.
Discuss, discuss. Hahahaha.
Re: SCREW Al Qaeda - Hope everyone in London is ok.....
Quote:
boytronic said:I'd also like to say that as a practising Muslim of Arab origin I can confidently say that the killing of innocent people has no place in my religion or culture - so whether or not this attack is related to "Al-Qaeda", I am sure that no-one who values life or has any morals will find it acceptable!
Well said!
Jul 7, 2005 4:30:43 PM
- Holminator
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Re: SCREW Al Qaeda - Hope everyone in London is ok.....
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
boytronic said:I'd also like to say that as a practising Muslim of Arab origin I can confidently say that the killing of innocent people has no place in my religion or culture - so whether or not this attack is related to "Al-Qaeda", I am sure that no-one who values life or has any morals will find it acceptable!
Well said!
True. No joke.
Jul 7, 2005 4:30:43 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Jul 7, 2005 4:31:40 PM
- John SF 2005 997 S
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boytronic & yarub1 - PEACE be with you....
I hope our comments do not offend or upset.... at times like this we should also be making sure people of like minds regardless of religion stick together. It is only through mutual understanding that these issues will be solved. WAR and HATE are the enemy not a people or religion.
I'm not religious at ALL - but I respect all peoples' right to practice whatever they wish peacefully....
I'm not religious at ALL - but I respect all peoples' right to practice whatever they wish peacefully....
Jul 7, 2005 4:33:22 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Jul 7, 2005 4:33:34 PM
- Holminator
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Jul 7, 2005 4:36:57 PM
- Holminator
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Re: SCREW Al Qaeda - Hope everyone in London is ok.....
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:Quote:
Holminator said:
It's as good a diversion as talking about how beautiful Jenna is IMHO.
Aren't you married, Tony?
Yeah, but not in this country. Three wives total. It's a lot of work!
PS What chick would be stupid enough to stay with a loser like me! Hahaha!
Jul 7, 2005 4:41:15 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
69bossnine, you are very wise for your age. Your comments are always worth reading. Thanks for the post.
Thanks Alan, because your post instantly prompted me to imagine and visualize Eric Cartman saying in his fantasy wise-elder-ninja voice "69bossnine, you are wise for your age...", and now it's stuck in my head, and will have me giggling to myself the rest of the day!! These types of diversions are my key to happiness and internal peace. Thanks!!
Jul 7, 2005 4:49:54 PM
- med
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
It's a very sad day here in London, thank you for all your concerns.
Spent most the day checking on friends and work colleagues and everyone I managed to contact is fine. Mobile phone connections have been down for most of the day and normal land lines have also been overloaded, so communication has been rather difficult.
My son was late for his normal train connection, which would have taken him straight into Aldgate East Station at the time of the explosion, makes me very cold and mad to think that someone so close to me, could have been injured or killed today.
Central London has now become a logistical headache, most businesses are only now at the close of play allowing staff to leave buildings.
50% of my staff rely on London transport services and are now walking, some several miles due to the breakdown of transport services.
Just heard some weird news regarding Croydon station, this station is outside London in the south and has now been closed? Are there any South London members on this board? That could put some light on this latest action?
Thanks again to for all your thoughts
Spent most the day checking on friends and work colleagues and everyone I managed to contact is fine. Mobile phone connections have been down for most of the day and normal land lines have also been overloaded, so communication has been rather difficult.
My son was late for his normal train connection, which would have taken him straight into Aldgate East Station at the time of the explosion, makes me very cold and mad to think that someone so close to me, could have been injured or killed today.
Central London has now become a logistical headache, most businesses are only now at the close of play allowing staff to leave buildings.
50% of my staff rely on London transport services and are now walking, some several miles due to the breakdown of transport services.
Just heard some weird news regarding Croydon station, this station is outside London in the south and has now been closed? Are there any South London members on this board? That could put some light on this latest action?
Thanks again to for all your thoughts
Jul 7, 2005 4:55:36 PM
- Holminator
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Jul 7, 2005 4:59:44 PM
- JimFlat6
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Quote:
Holminator said:Quote:
FARGO said:
no mercy for terrorists,
only death penalty for those dreg(trash,scum)
Putting them in Compton, G, is far worst than death. Martyrdom is what some of them are looking for; be careful not to become a pawn in someone else's game.
Im sure the people of Compton would reject your relocation
plan for Jihadis. Calling parts of the world buttholes sounds pretty spoiled and letting fanatical lunatics run around free because its some sort of a game is pretty short sighted. Im sure the Jihadis would appreciate your travel plans and tolerance.
Saudi's biggest fear is to have a democracy on its border.
As a autocratic regime its leaders have a lot to lose if
they are held accountable and if thier officials served at the will of the people.
Jul 7, 2005 5:10:08 PM
- Holminator
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Haha, yeah, I don't think the good people of Compton would like it. I meant San Quentin state prison. Mistake was made as a result of listening to too many Death Row Records. Pardon me.
Anyway, thought you might find this quote interesting:
*****
"The Secret Organization Group of Al-Qa'ida of Jihad Organization in Europe
[Jama'at al-Tanzim al-Sirri, Tanzim Qa'idat al-Jihad fi Urupa]
In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and the dauntless fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.
O nation of Islam and nation of Arabism: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge from the British Zionist Crusader Government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The heroic mujahidin have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror, and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.
We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahidin exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.
We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.
God says: " [O ye who believe!] If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."
*********
Oh, one more thing, is democracy an ideology now? When did that happen? I always thought democracy was about pragmatism and compromise. That it was about the freedom to choose. When did the Iraqis decide to be invaded by us even if it meant the downfall of that blood-thirsty killer Saddam Hussein? Most "polls" I've seen are against American presence. I've found that democracy is something that is best earned, not handed to people on a silver plater. If the people of Iraq or even Saudi Arabia want democracy, they should overthrow the Kingdom, not me or you IMHO. No one handed us, the Brits, or the French our democracies, ahem, although there was no shortage of people willing to send us guns to help with the fight.
FYI--I am neither for or against President Bush anymore than I am for or against former President Clinton, so don't even go there my friend. Hahaha! I don't see much difference between the two major parties aside from all the rhetoric. They tend to do the same kinds of things once in office. The rhetoric is only said to get us mad enough to vote, which a majority of us don't do. So much for democracy in my time!
<Holminator--keepin' it real. That's right.>
The most successful way to beat terrorists throughout history has been to undermine their reason for being, to undermine their base of support. The best way this has been done is to address some of their grievances. This course of action takes more courage than tough talk. Unfortunately, it usually only happens after about 20-30 years of bombings and retaliation killings before people are ready to deal with the issues. That is our future; lots of killing.
Question: Do most of you understand why al-Qa'ida is conducting this violence? Can you express the reasons in a dispassionate manner?
Anyway, thought you might find this quote interesting:
*****
"The Secret Organization Group of Al-Qa'ida of Jihad Organization in Europe
[Jama'at al-Tanzim al-Sirri, Tanzim Qa'idat al-Jihad fi Urupa]
In the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate, may peace be upon the cheerful one and the dauntless fighter, Prophet Muhammad, God's peace be upon him.
O nation of Islam and nation of Arabism: Rejoice for it is time to take revenge from the British Zionist Crusader Government in retaliation for the massacres Britain is committing in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The heroic mujahidin have carried out a blessed raid in London. Britain is now burning with fear, terror, and panic in its northern, southern, eastern, and western quarters.
We have repeatedly warned the British Government and people. We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid in Britain after our mujahidin exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.
We continue to warn the governments of Denmark and Italy and all the Crusader governments that they will be punished in the same way if they do not withdraw their troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. He who warns is excused.
God says: " [O ye who believe!] If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly."
*********
Oh, one more thing, is democracy an ideology now? When did that happen? I always thought democracy was about pragmatism and compromise. That it was about the freedom to choose. When did the Iraqis decide to be invaded by us even if it meant the downfall of that blood-thirsty killer Saddam Hussein? Most "polls" I've seen are against American presence. I've found that democracy is something that is best earned, not handed to people on a silver plater. If the people of Iraq or even Saudi Arabia want democracy, they should overthrow the Kingdom, not me or you IMHO. No one handed us, the Brits, or the French our democracies, ahem, although there was no shortage of people willing to send us guns to help with the fight.
FYI--I am neither for or against President Bush anymore than I am for or against former President Clinton, so don't even go there my friend. Hahaha! I don't see much difference between the two major parties aside from all the rhetoric. They tend to do the same kinds of things once in office. The rhetoric is only said to get us mad enough to vote, which a majority of us don't do. So much for democracy in my time!
<Holminator--keepin' it real. That's right.>
The most successful way to beat terrorists throughout history has been to undermine their reason for being, to undermine their base of support. The best way this has been done is to address some of their grievances. This course of action takes more courage than tough talk. Unfortunately, it usually only happens after about 20-30 years of bombings and retaliation killings before people are ready to deal with the issues. That is our future; lots of killing.
Question: Do most of you understand why al-Qa'ida is conducting this violence? Can you express the reasons in a dispassionate manner?
Jul 7, 2005 5:45:19 PM
- JimFlat6
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Well Tony, the Iraqi government decided to be invaded itself! If they had complied with the contract of their surrender in Gulf War 1, they would still be in power maybe. But they did not. So thats why that jolly fellow Hussein sits in jail today. Hussein payed for more suicide bombers to attack Israeli citizens then the number of British citizens so tragically killed in todays attack.
Hes actually very lucky to just be alive.
If you, in Maryland, were paying people to blow up other people in Delaware, Im sure that someone would people would deem it a good idea to get rid of you.
Hes actually very lucky to just be alive.
If you, in Maryland, were paying people to blow up other people in Delaware, Im sure that someone would people would deem it a good idea to get rid of you.
Jul 7, 2005 5:47:49 PM
- yarub1
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Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
I am back I could not resist,
"Speaking of worthless and garbage rhetoric, the whole "The U.S. is just interested in the oil" thing is a laughable and ignorant-of-the-facts notion."
Is it? The oil IS the main source of energy. If you control it you control the world and its growth. Because of that, the USA Administration is actively seeking the control of oil sources.
"But we have no "control" or "ownership" of them, they belong to Iraq. If we've got so much control over all that damn oil, how come my price at the pump has done nothing but skyrocket since we've invaded,".
If the US has no control over it, please explain to me why the US Administration decide who gets what in Iraq.
Regarding prices its just due to the current instability and demand outsripin offer. Currently the Saudi Arabia is expending its capability to keep the US happy.
Another interesting dilema for the US is that many states depends on oil as their major source of income. I am sure that a large number of the US administration are secretly happy about the current prices. Remember that Busch is from Texas. Sorry, I could not understand you comment about China!
"Isolationism is shortsighted and foolhardy, and doesn't pass the first five minutes of enlightened debate."
If you read my previous post you will note that I am note asking for Isolationism. I even stated that "Fair trade is the best way to bring the worl closer". What I am calling for is the respect of the national sovereinty of each country. What the US administration, in its behaviour, is advocating know is the law of the jungle. The world decided against the war and the US went ahead against the will of the worl because it can. This behaviour goes against the notion of democracy that the US is preaching
"If everybody would open their eyes and ears, and drop their preconceived bias, they would realize that the U.S. did not invade Iraq as a direct answer to 911. 911 marked a decided change in overall strategy by the U.S., whereby we stopped sitting on our hands and negotiating with those who would see us dead, and we went on the offensive. Not only to hunt down and destroy those who attacked us on 911, but to aggressively begin a strategy of change and reform throughout the Middle East. Without real change, we are doomed to continue down the same road that we've been traveling for thousands of years. World peace won't happen by everybody going back to their countries, building walls, and sending each other greeting cards on the holidays. Evil will always take advantage of sleeping lions, period. There has to be a power balance in place to achieve peace, as tough as that might be to swallow. Iraq was a strategically smart choice, from a military standpoint. It's the best place to set up camp and begin the process of Democracizing the region. It also, conveniently, draws the efforts and resources of alot of terror organizations. Don't for a minute think that, if the U.S. had left Iraq alone, that terrorist attacks would cease, and terrorists would be playing gin rummy waiting for something new to do."
First of all, the US Administration has NO RIGHTS to impose its views on what is write and what is wrong on other nations.
Secondly, the whole idea of democratizing the Midle East is nothing more than a smocke screen. Let me explain! The US will create a democracy if its in its interest (Like Japan and Germany after WW2 because it needed strong allies against the emergence of the Soviet Union). The US WILL BRING DOWN A DEMOCEACY IF ITS IN ITS INTEREST (I capitalised to emphasize my point only) like in Chili in the early 70's and helped Pinocher, a military dictetor to come to power. Why Because it did not want a Democraticaly elected Socialist government in place. Another good example is Iran in the mid 50's when the CIA brought down the first Democraticaly elected government and brought back the chah, a dictetor, to power purely for oil control reasons and nothing else (We all know what happened 25 years later as a consecance of that intervention, the Islamic revolution). So, the US will never approve of full democracy in the Arab countries in the Middle East for the simple reason that it goes against its interest.
"Basically the Iraq invasion was a warning signal to all outlaw regimes, that lions around the world, including the U.S. and Great Britain, were awake. Why not N. Korea? Well, gee, wouldn't it be nice to defeat all our enemies at once?? Iraq was the right place to start, and our resources are presently tapped, obviously."
Who gave the US the right to decide what is and what is not an outlaw regim? From my point of view the US Government is the outlaw regim because it went against the will of the world (Just like Iraq did in 1990), and its making a very bad example. Know, as an example, if Australia deided to invade New Zealand because it does not like the governmnet in place. How woul you feel about it? The reputation of the US is at an all time low due to the bahaviour of you government. Can you believe that in the last survey, even you closest allies (UK) have better views in China than the US.
The actions of the US government is incouraging other countries to actively seek WMD. that the only thing that will come out of the hole Iraq fiasco.
"As for taking stabs at America's past sins, give me a break. That's about as relevant as the price of tea in China. At least we're trying to LEARN from our past mistakes, and our history, so that we are not doomed to repeat it, as so many countries who got mowed-over by Hitler should remember."
If someone takes a stab at my past, believe me I will take a stab at his past. Unfortunatly, the US did not learn from its past. Its doing exactly what Hitler did at the begining of WW2. Its invading other countries with no reason.
"we have a LONG HISTORY that shows clearly that imperialism is not the modus operandi of the U.S.. Just ask Germany and Japan."
I don't agree with that comment, may be I should ask our friends from Central and South America about the above claim.
This hole thread is not making me any favor, I must go back to work.
"Speaking of worthless and garbage rhetoric, the whole "The U.S. is just interested in the oil" thing is a laughable and ignorant-of-the-facts notion."
Is it? The oil IS the main source of energy. If you control it you control the world and its growth. Because of that, the USA Administration is actively seeking the control of oil sources.
"But we have no "control" or "ownership" of them, they belong to Iraq. If we've got so much control over all that damn oil, how come my price at the pump has done nothing but skyrocket since we've invaded,".
If the US has no control over it, please explain to me why the US Administration decide who gets what in Iraq.
Regarding prices its just due to the current instability and demand outsripin offer. Currently the Saudi Arabia is expending its capability to keep the US happy.
Another interesting dilema for the US is that many states depends on oil as their major source of income. I am sure that a large number of the US administration are secretly happy about the current prices. Remember that Busch is from Texas. Sorry, I could not understand you comment about China!
"Isolationism is shortsighted and foolhardy, and doesn't pass the first five minutes of enlightened debate."
If you read my previous post you will note that I am note asking for Isolationism. I even stated that "Fair trade is the best way to bring the worl closer". What I am calling for is the respect of the national sovereinty of each country. What the US administration, in its behaviour, is advocating know is the law of the jungle. The world decided against the war and the US went ahead against the will of the worl because it can. This behaviour goes against the notion of democracy that the US is preaching
"If everybody would open their eyes and ears, and drop their preconceived bias, they would realize that the U.S. did not invade Iraq as a direct answer to 911. 911 marked a decided change in overall strategy by the U.S., whereby we stopped sitting on our hands and negotiating with those who would see us dead, and we went on the offensive. Not only to hunt down and destroy those who attacked us on 911, but to aggressively begin a strategy of change and reform throughout the Middle East. Without real change, we are doomed to continue down the same road that we've been traveling for thousands of years. World peace won't happen by everybody going back to their countries, building walls, and sending each other greeting cards on the holidays. Evil will always take advantage of sleeping lions, period. There has to be a power balance in place to achieve peace, as tough as that might be to swallow. Iraq was a strategically smart choice, from a military standpoint. It's the best place to set up camp and begin the process of Democracizing the region. It also, conveniently, draws the efforts and resources of alot of terror organizations. Don't for a minute think that, if the U.S. had left Iraq alone, that terrorist attacks would cease, and terrorists would be playing gin rummy waiting for something new to do."
First of all, the US Administration has NO RIGHTS to impose its views on what is write and what is wrong on other nations.
Secondly, the whole idea of democratizing the Midle East is nothing more than a smocke screen. Let me explain! The US will create a democracy if its in its interest (Like Japan and Germany after WW2 because it needed strong allies against the emergence of the Soviet Union). The US WILL BRING DOWN A DEMOCEACY IF ITS IN ITS INTEREST (I capitalised to emphasize my point only) like in Chili in the early 70's and helped Pinocher, a military dictetor to come to power. Why Because it did not want a Democraticaly elected Socialist government in place. Another good example is Iran in the mid 50's when the CIA brought down the first Democraticaly elected government and brought back the chah, a dictetor, to power purely for oil control reasons and nothing else (We all know what happened 25 years later as a consecance of that intervention, the Islamic revolution). So, the US will never approve of full democracy in the Arab countries in the Middle East for the simple reason that it goes against its interest.
"Basically the Iraq invasion was a warning signal to all outlaw regimes, that lions around the world, including the U.S. and Great Britain, were awake. Why not N. Korea? Well, gee, wouldn't it be nice to defeat all our enemies at once?? Iraq was the right place to start, and our resources are presently tapped, obviously."
Who gave the US the right to decide what is and what is not an outlaw regim? From my point of view the US Government is the outlaw regim because it went against the will of the world (Just like Iraq did in 1990), and its making a very bad example. Know, as an example, if Australia deided to invade New Zealand because it does not like the governmnet in place. How woul you feel about it? The reputation of the US is at an all time low due to the bahaviour of you government. Can you believe that in the last survey, even you closest allies (UK) have better views in China than the US.
The actions of the US government is incouraging other countries to actively seek WMD. that the only thing that will come out of the hole Iraq fiasco.
"As for taking stabs at America's past sins, give me a break. That's about as relevant as the price of tea in China. At least we're trying to LEARN from our past mistakes, and our history, so that we are not doomed to repeat it, as so many countries who got mowed-over by Hitler should remember."
If someone takes a stab at my past, believe me I will take a stab at his past. Unfortunatly, the US did not learn from its past. Its doing exactly what Hitler did at the begining of WW2. Its invading other countries with no reason.
"we have a LONG HISTORY that shows clearly that imperialism is not the modus operandi of the U.S.. Just ask Germany and Japan."
I don't agree with that comment, may be I should ask our friends from Central and South America about the above claim.
This hole thread is not making me any favor, I must go back to work.
Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Well Tony, the Iraqi government decided to be invaded itself! If they had complied with the contract of their surrender in Gulf War 1, they would still be in power maybe. But they did not. So thats why that jolly fellow Hussein sits in jail today.
I think they stoped looking for WMD in Iraq. So basicaly Saddam was telling the truth when he said that he did not have any. Guess who's the liyer now.
Jul 7, 2005 5:51:50 PM
- 69bossnine
- Rennteam Pro
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- Loc: FL, USA , United States
- Posts: 2028, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 27, 2005
- Reply to: Holminator
Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
I don't think Iraq is being handed democracy on "a silver platter", I think they are just now beginning what will be a long fight, one they are taking more and more responsibility for. Also, you need to put the polls in proper context. Yes, OF COURSE, Iraqis are against the American presence. But that's a typically loaded poll question that has a predictable result. If you asked those same Iraqis in the same poll if they are FOR a free and democratic government, they would want that too. It's natural for a citizenry to want their cake, and eat it too. So I don't pay alot of attention to that poll, and I keep it in appropriate context. I also don't believe they were ever in a position to overthrow their own Kingdom, Saddam had a pretty tight choke-hold on that. Comparing apples to oranges, across different technological eras, isn't relevant. In the end, with all of the sacrifice and suffering and future sacrifice and suffering that the Iraqi people will have to diligently invest, I believe they will earn every shred of what democracy they get, or they'll be doomed to endure the bloodshed and cultural war and chaos that would ensue should they become apathetic and squander the opportunity. But it's unfair and unrealistic to say that they should have done this all on their own, in this day and age. I think the day where oppressed societies are left helpless to overthrow tyrant dictators is coming to an end, at least I hope it is, due to more pro-active international action. Too many women and children die in the process of a country "self-correcting". Look at Cambodia, for one.
Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
The cold war was a different time and beuing played for different stakes. If you want to use the tyrant Pinochet
to hide behind and keep todays Tyrants in place thats sad.
How many countries have a pure record at anything?
Not even Denmark!
Why not just trash Sweden for being a imperialist power in the 1600'?? Should we forever suspect Swedish intentions and build villager washer women conspiracies about them?
Better post look outs on your coast for Viking raiders!
Today is today,its not 1600, its not 1950, get over it.
Your connected globally to everyone else. Standards and
aspirations are changing.
to hide behind and keep todays Tyrants in place thats sad.
How many countries have a pure record at anything?
Not even Denmark!
Why not just trash Sweden for being a imperialist power in the 1600'?? Should we forever suspect Swedish intentions and build villager washer women conspiracies about them?
Better post look outs on your coast for Viking raiders!
Today is today,its not 1600, its not 1950, get over it.
Your connected globally to everyone else. Standards and
aspirations are changing.
Jul 7, 2005 6:05:09 PM
- Holminator
- Veteran
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- Loc: USA , United States
- Posts: 1041, Gallery
- Registered on: Sep 28, 2004
- Reply to: 69bossnine
Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Yugoslavia should serve as an loose example for what is to come in Iraq. When you remove a despot from a "country" that is starkly, ethno-religiously divided, in a region of the world that is a natural buffer "state" between these divisions, what you get is civil war. Whether the Americans stay in Iraq or not, civil war is coming. Democracy, true representative democracy, in which the candidates for office are not screened by the US before they can run for office as was the last "election," means the Shi'is (or Shi'ites) will be in control. Many of the former power elites in the Sunni community fear this and fear that revenge will happen for all of the years that many Shi'is were excluded. Add to that equation of pain, Sunnis from outside the country coming in for jihad against all "apostates." All in the Kurds and Turks. Iraq was a country that never should have been a country--the same as Somalia on an abstract level. This situation is far more complex than simply bring the "ideology of democracy" to the Near East.
Jim, yeah, the history of Man is pretty f'ed up. Right on. History is important if we don't want to repeat it a lot.
Jim, yeah, the history of Man is pretty f'ed up. Right on.
History is important if we don't want to repeat it a lot.
Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Quote:
yarub1 said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Well Tony, the Iraqi government decided to be invaded itself! If they had complied with the contract of their surrender in Gulf War 1, they would still be in power maybe. But they did not. So thats why that jolly fellow Hussein sits in jail today.
I think they stoped looking for WMD in Iraq. So basicaly Saddam was telling the truth when he said that he did not have any. Guess who's the liyer now.
Yes, Liars abounded in Iraq. Not only did they hamper and harass WMD UN teams to make it appear that they MAY have them to their neighbors, they also attemped assasination of a US President, shot at coalition aircraft patrolling airspace as agreed to in their surrender, failed to return thousands of Kuwaiti POWs, goods and monies, cheated on their commercial terms and obligations etc.. I am amazed that you would defend such a vile monster as Huseein just to hate Bush so much!
Jul 7, 2005 6:16:34 PM
- Holminator
- Veteran
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- Loc: USA , United States
- Posts: 1041, Gallery
- Registered on: Sep 28, 2004
- Reply to: JimFlat6
Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....
Huh? Who hates Bush and how is he that relevant? Congress (Democrat & Republican idiots) agreed to go to war (over 500 people could have said no). US intelligence f'ed up and only CIA Director Tenet may have suffered when many should have been fired. It seems to be a fairly objective fact that the US Government f'ed up and went into Iraq for the wrong reasons. Sacrificing my friends (like Kyland Jones-Huffman, head shot near Basrah while at a traffic light) for a war without reason seems stupid to me. Now we have no way out of this mess. The Iraqi "Government" will never be strong enough to stand on it's own. It's too factious and weak, split on tribal and ethno-religious fault lines. IMHO, the people in our government, who believe we can win in Iraq, might be the same people, who believe we never lost in Vietnam, unless those people also realize that in 3 years it will be someone else's problem, not theirs.
Jul 7, 2005 6:17:11 PM
- John SF 2005 997 S
- Senior
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- Loc: San Francisco CA USA
- Posts: 530, Gallery
- Registered on: May 14, 2004
- Reply to: JimFlat6
About the WMD...
The problem was that Saddam WANTED his neighbors to think he had WMD so they would live in fear of Iraq - so he did everything he could to make it look like he was snubbing the UN inspectors and hiding them from them even though he didn't have them any more.... We fell for it and invaded... too late now and HOW do we get OUT and bring our troops home without de-stabalizing the whole area? Iran is RIPE for fundamentalists and terrorists...... Not a good situation......
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