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    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    The Corvette is hardly demanded outside the USA.

    The GT-R is very competent no doubt, but a sports car is not only about numbers. There are other necessary ingredients like style, charisma, feel and driving involvement, areas in which the fast Nissan is lacking.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Leawood911:

    Sorry RC but even a $4K wheel and tire deal (costs them maybe $1.5K) is not enough for me to hand over an extra $85K to drive a newer 911.  And that's the cost in the US!  Perhaps the difference is that I don't have a 911 car payment and take a different approach toward money and depreciation.  On the bright side I have always owned and driven a 911, never had a car payment and always drive them to work or anywhere without a care in the world. 

    For me it is just a fun car to drive.  Very fun - but it is just a car and a horrible investment.  As Nick points out - people can hardly tell them apart unless they are in the know.  (agreement with Nick is easy for me when it comes to Porsches)

    The deal was pretty good. Let's take the 991 CS Cab: 145k EUR new price tag, 15k EUR initial payment, 999 EUR (incl. VAT) per month lease rate for 36 months, 10k km per year. Winter wheel set included. If this is not a good deal, I don't know what a good deal is. Smiley

    I do not buy such expensive cars, resale value is always a big question mark and I have been very very lucky with my C63 AMG Coupe (the first car I bought in years) because my local Mercedes dealer wanted to lure me away from Porsche, so I got a very good deal. I actually "lost" only 10k EUR for driving the C63 AMG Coupe for almost a year, not bad at all in my book.

    If resale value would not be important to me (because I build up a collection, like Futch does for example), I would buy the cars but since I cannot afford a car collection (nor does my garage Smiley...only four cars fit, which is huge for a German single garage),  I lease my cars and after 2-4 years, depending on the lease duration, I dump the car(s) and move on, no strings attached, no headache...just perfect. So far, BMW and Porsche lease companies have been generous and very forgiving, so what not?!


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    consider yourselves lucky...

     

    a 991S here in Australia is USD300k on the road with minimum options!

     

    assuming we have the same % of depreciation, we loose so much more $$$ trading cars

     

    but wat the heck, that's why we work right!?


    --

    BMW 1 M + C63. 


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Pentium:

    The running cost of a Ferrari daily driver (let's say 25.000km per year) compared with a 911 cost is minimum three times more. So I would still consider the 991 being a cheaper solution but not a bargain anymore.

    If you need a weekend car, then the Ferrari makes more sense indeed.

     

     To be honest, the California is not too expensive to run you know. Plus Ferrari now includes the purchase price 3 to 5 years of maintenance or something like that. But even if you buy the car second hand, the services are not that much more expensive and driven normally, the fuel consumption is not too bad.

    The Cali is one of my cars I hate to like! So gay and girly and yet, it's pretty nice to drive, albeit very soft. A very good GT.Smiley

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    nberry:

    Sorry, the 991 is not a sport car bargain. The GT-R and Corvette are. Now if you ask me which car I would take if they all cost the same probably I would take the Porsche. As I wrote before, Porsche price point has far exceeded its performance value. Again, I say this without any idea how well the 991 is selling. If it is selling well, then good for Porsche. They know how much they can extract from their customer base.Smiley

     For me today, Porsche still makes fantastic sports cars, but the bargain of the lineup seems to be the Cayman S in $/smile ratio.

    Porsche has a ruthless approach to business, yes the 911 sells very well. Frankly, I do not like the ethos of the company, but who can criticise when they're doing so well.

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Futch:
    nberry:

    Sorry, the 991 is not a sport car bargain. The GT-R and Corvette are. Now if you ask me which car I would take if they all cost the same probably I would take the Porsche. As I wrote before, Porsche price point has far exceeded its performance value. Again, I say this without any idea how well the 991 is selling. If it is selling well, then good for Porsche. They know how much they can extract from their customer base.Smiley

     For me today, Porsche still makes fantastic sports cars, but the bargain of the lineup seems to be the Cayman S in $/smile ratio.

    Porsche has a ruthless approach to business, yes the 911 sells very well. Frankly, I do not like the ethos of the company, but who can criticise when they're doing so well.

     

    Just curious: What do you mean by ruthless or the flawed ethos you mentioned? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    RC:
    Futch:
    nberry:

    Sorry, the 991 is not a sport car bargain. The GT-R and Corvette are. Now if you ask me which car I would take if they all cost the same probably I would take the Porsche. As I wrote before, Porsche price point has far exceeded its performance value. Again, I say this without any idea how well the 991 is selling. If it is selling well, then good for Porsche. They know how much they can extract from their customer base.Smiley

     For me today, Porsche still makes fantastic sports cars, but the bargain of the lineup seems to be the Cayman S in $/smile ratio.

    Porsche has a ruthless approach to business, yes the 911 sells very well. Frankly, I do not like the ethos of the company, but who can criticise when they're doing so well.

     

    Just curious: What do you mean by ruthless or the flawed ethos you mentioned? Smiley

     read my post on the Cayenne forum and you will understand why I am really upset at them.Smiley


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I read it, sorry about it. surprise Next time you know what to do. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    RC - couple of points -

    You mention the 911 is a good deal if you plan to keep it for a long time.  Naturally the longer I keep mine the better bargain it becomes which contradicts the logic of always trading up to the new one. 

    You did not say what the residual is after the lease.  The down payment and monthly payment are only two parts of the equation and without the residual (cost of the car after the lease) your lease terms are a bit of a mystery as stated. 

    Given your excellent lease terms (?) - lets forget about the residual - your down payment (15K) plus your monthly lease divided by miles allowed equates to $3.66 per mile (euro and miles conversion done) with a 6200 miles per year limit (less than 20 miles per day - or about a gallon of gas worth of driving!).  I would hate to know what they charge for extra miles though anything less than $3.66 would be a bargain.  That is prior to buying premium gas or N tires each year.  At the end of the lease all that money is gone (plus taxes and insurance) - when you could have bought a 997S for $45K euro and put unlimited miles on it and had a car for free at the end of the three years rather than nothing.

    Perhaps you mispoke about Futch not caring about resale value - clearly he is using excellent decision making in selecting investment grade cars - I don't see how he is going to suffer much depreciation in the long term.  I think he will be doing very well and having a blast deciding each day which car to drive.  (by the way I can help)

    I lease my kids cars and my own foul weather car.  That way they have a new and safe car and no repair bills.  My Sonata leases are a really good deal - ZERO down, $200 per month (includes all taxes), $14K residual on a car that is $22K new - 36 months, 12K miles per year.  That is $.20 per mile and every penny and then some goes to reduce the price of the car ($7200 in payments reduce the price by $8000 after three years).  During those three years I doubt I will be buying any tires and if I keep it I will have the balance of a 100K 10 year warranty remaining making the purchase for $14K very attractive (will be able to sell the car for more)

    Clearly you can't compare the Sonata to the 991 Cs Cab but my point is that one should lease the cheap cars and own the expensive ones by paying cash and keeping them a while longer.  I think you have it backwards.  We view money, investment, cash flow and assets differently. 

    Porsche is just a car - it is easy to get wrapped up in the latest and greatest and spend lots of money.  That is simple.  I agree with Futch that Porsche is ruthless and Great at extracting money by exploiting envy and greed (in a very business like and honest manner).  I refuse to get too wrapped up in that - the 991 will soon be the next OLD porsche and is just an average sports car because it is mass produced.  Best to simply build a collection of nice old cars at market value (not dealer prices).

    Dang - my 2005 997S is sounding better and better after that lease cost.  I am looking forward to putting as many miles on it as I can.

     

     

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Christian, leasing is not for everyone. Look at this way. You are burning I guess about $5000 a month or $60,000 a year for your various mode of transportation.  In one year for that money you could OWN a Cayenne. In two years ($120,000) you could OWN a Turbo. In three years buy a good used super car. And this does not include money saved for you children education.Smiley

    Leasing to driving the latest car model can get very expensive.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Haven't seen many  991'son the road here in Perth, have you?  With the changes to the Boxster it appears to be a much better buy , but again the basic S that I built  is $160,000 on the road!


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    My 997.1 S is gone. I was quite unhappy with the car. I will not chance to a 991. When I buy a new Porsche it will be the new Boxster S.

     

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    As a general rule, a new 911 is always better and faster than the old one.

    But for me, I have no intention to upgrade to 991.  My club coupe has more than enough speed for my city usage.  It is too unique (50 made) to give up.  It has depreciated to a level that I can now drive and park it everywhere.  This is a very important feature.  Paying more for a new car I will then have to baby it for a few years, feel bad about every little door dings, and ended up enjoying less of it.


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2011 Panamera 4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    OK after several days, here is the scorekeeping (counting those who said they are owners to be consistent with the question):   

    For owners of 997.1:                                                                
    No - will not upgrade my 997.1   = 3
    Not sure... maybe later                  = 1
    Yes - I did, or will                            = 2

    For owners of 997.2:
    No - will not upgrade my 997.2   = 6
    Not sure.... maybe later                 = 1
    Yes - I did, or will                            = 0

    Pretty high percentage that intends to keep their 997 models.  What prompted me to ask this question was that I sense that many car owners are now flipping their cars less frequently, for many reasons.  Economy / finances, less interest in having the newest car, not enthused about the direction of newer cars, etc.   I also wonder whether Porsche's biggest competitor is older Porsches - at least on Rennteam this seems to be true.  

    In fact, if I were in Porsche marketing, I might even assume that I would not sell many 991s to 997.2 owners for these reasons, so sales would need to come from people new to the 911... in this case, I might as well make the 991 quite different, maybe more GT-like and larger, since the haters would not buy in most cases, and the new customers might..  .Smiley


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Very good points... especially regarding 997.2 to 991 prospects.  I'm not privy to actual figures, but from observation alone, there seems to be very little movement involving these models.

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Leawood911:

    RC - couple of points -

    You mention the 911 is a good deal if you plan to keep it for a long time.  Naturally the longer I keep mine the better bargain it becomes which contradicts the logic of always trading up to the new one. 

    You did not say what the residual is after the lease.  The down payment and monthly payment are only two parts of the equation and without the residual (cost of the car after the lease) your lease terms are a bit of a mystery as stated. 

    I don't have to care about the residual value after the lease, this is the beauty of it. It is called "km Lease", meaning that I am allowed to drive a certain amount of km per year (in this case 10000) and then I just return the car to the dealer and I am done with it. No worries, nothing. Even if I drive more, I pay only per additional km a certain amount of money, which isn't really much. Residual value is only important for the lease company and dealer, not for me. Smiley

    This is why I do not buy expensive cars.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    acky:

    My 997.1 S is gone. I was quite unhappy with the car. I will not chance to a 991. When I buy a new Porsche it will be the new Boxster S.

     

     

    Why? Before you go for the new Boxster S, testdrive the new 991 Carrera S.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    nberry:

    Christian, leasing is not for everyone. Look at this way. You are burning I guess about $5000 a month or $60,000 a year for your various mode of transportation.  In one year for that money you could OWN a Cayenne. In two years ($120,000) you could OWN a Turbo. In three years buy a good used super car. And this does not include money saved for you children education.Smiley

    Leasing to driving the latest car model can get very expensive.Smiley

    You are wrong (in my case). A car looses a substantial value over the first three years of ownership. I like to drive the latest models most of the time, so keeping a car longer than three or four years is out of the question for me.

    Let me do some math: My Cayenne GTS has a new car value of 123k EUR, rebate was 11%, so this makes aprox. 110k EUR. My down payment for the lease was 40k EUR and I pay 350 EUR (incl. VAT) per month for three years.

    52600 EUR for a three year lease period, this makes 17533 EUR per year or 1461 EUR per month. So the car would, theoretically, have a remaining value of 57400 EUR after the three years lease. If I would have bought the car, would I get 57400 EUR for it after three years of ownership? I highly doubt it, especially since in three years, the facelift is out, the Macan will be available too and the next generation of the Cayenne will just be around the corner. Maybe 45-50k EUR if I am lucky and the fuel prices didn't go through the roof. Yes, I would need to sell it after three years to be able to finance my next car.

    For me, this makes a lot of sense. For other people, who keep their cars longer than three or four years, it may not. 

    I also like the fact that after three years, I just leave the car at the dealer and I'm done with it. No worries, nothing since the residual value is not my concern.

    I drive my cars with a lot of pleasure and I love them but I'm not married to them. Smiley The next model is almost always better, faster, etc., you get my point.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    I had a 2006 997.1 C2 coupe. Loved the car and put almost 50,000 miles on it. Still, when the new one came out I had to have a look.

    I wound up with a 2013 991 C2S Cab and the difference between the two cars is night and day. Sure, the price is a huge bump but the new car is so much nicer. On top of that, the power difference is insane. My 997 would give me a grin every time I drove it but now I cackle like a madman when I stand on the gas.

    Your best course of action is to go drive the new model. You'll know right what to do.

    Hope this was helpful.


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Rich_NY:
    but now I cackle like a madman when I stand on the gas.

     

    SmileySmiley

    Blueflame Smiley


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    @RichNY - yes that is the kind of opinion I was curious about.  With your new 991, that makes our completely unscientific Rennteam poll about 50-50 for 997.1 owners in terms of upgrading or not.   The 997.2 owners are a much more reluctant lot.... none of the ones who commented are switching.  

    The 50-50 for early 997s does make sense, since many of the early cars were getting to be higher mileage, a bit more concern about long term mechanical issues, and there does seem to be this "itch"  thing that is spreading on this forum.... indecision


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Honestly, I was also worried about the maintenance issue. I had purchased an extended warranty and that covered me through the sixth year of ownership but after that I was exposed. I drove it like that for a while but knew that if I was going to keep the car I would need to buy another warranty and most likely have a few things fixed first and do some pricey maintenance to qualify for it.

    As I said before, I am extremely pleased with my choice. I was able to have the car custom built and am looking forward to keeping it for 6-8 years.

    Let us know what you decide.


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Another factor from my perspective - many 997.1 are manual. (mine was) PDK was quite a draw for me but I couldn't justify 997.2. Once I could justify 991 - it was a no brainer.


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    You probably could buy two Boxsters for the price of a 4S cab.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    nberry:

    You probably could buy two Boxsters for the price of a 4S cab.Smiley

    He could buy even more Honda CRVs for that money... Smiley

    Or he could buy the half of a Ferrari F12... Smiley

    Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    indecision


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Christian, do I detect an element of frustration in your post?Smiley Facts are what they are.

    FWIW, the CRV has been a glorious purchase. Wrote a check for $24,000 three years ago and all I have done is change oil ($50) a few times and purchased a new set of tires $400. The car has been bullet proof and it rides beautifully. AND its resale value is strong. Can't ask for much more.Smiley

    Now ask me about my Cayenne purchase several years ago.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    nberry:

    Christian, do I detect an element of frustration in your post?Smiley Facts are what they are.

    FWIW, the CRV has been a glorious purchase. Wrote a check for $24,000 three years ago and all I have done is change oil ($50) a few times and purchased a new set of tires $400. The car has been bullet proof and it rides beautifully. AND its resale value is strong. Can't ask for much more.Smiley

    Now ask me about my Cayenne purchase several years ago.Smiley

    I wouldn't want to be caught dead in a CRV (no offense meant), let alone drive one. Some people spend money on gambling, women, drugs, alcohol and art, I spend money on cars. This is my pleasure. My car is not just a vehicle, it is a toy. Bad boys love their bad toys, you know that, right?! Smiley

    Smiley

    Btw: To detect any element of frustration, you need to ask me again if the Apple stock drops below 400 USD. Smiley Otherwise, I am a pretty happy person, not sure where you detected an element of frustration? I know what my car(s) cost me, otherwise I couldn't afford paying for them. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    Aside from your comment regarding the CRV, I wholeheartedly agree with your post.Smiley That said, as you get wiser you will learn that what you drive DOES NOT define who you are.Smiley


    --

     


    Re: To 997.1 owners - keep or buy a 991?

    It sucks to not be able to drive a CRV because it is too plain and a 911 because it is too fancy.  Wow, glad I'm not in Austria, I hear it is the same there or worse.  Neid is a terrible thing.


     
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