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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    Since we have no further news about the health of the afflicted GT3, we diverted to politics!

    As with politics also with cars a lot is based on propaganda. People are fickle and gullible. The GT3 attracted godlike admiration up 10 days ago, whereas now it is on the delete list. Same with political figures and events.

     harsh words..but certainly some thruth in it.

    However, comparing a GT3 to politics..you cant compare this. The lifespan of our dumm and corrupt politicians - Im using the word "corrupt" here on purpose - as it happens a lot in Germany also - but not under the term "corrupt" but more under the term "nepotism" - is maybe 10 years..exceptions do exist and if they do exist the are relying on what I just said.

    Anyway, my point is, Porsche has been building things that are still years after end of production admired and well sought after..Porsche 917, 962, TAG F1, 959, C-GT, GT3..all these things are still admired by many - and many even pay lots of money for this. I highly doubt people will in 20 years say or admire Ms Merkel for her brave and effficient actions on solving the economic crisis in Europe. I just cant see people meeting up  in 20 years in "Merkel fanclubs" and discuss her great actions. In 20 years she will be forgotten and be worth a small paragraph in history books but our cars, still in 20 years people will try to drive a GT3, meet up on sunday morning, exchange their passion etc.

    The example of Merkel could be portrayed to many EU politicians..and Im sorry for this excursion to the politics here - I like it :). My personal opinion is that she is one of the dummest chancellors Germany ever had, above all she is lying to its people - and its future generations. Porsche is nothing against that..they have some short term problem now..but their "harm to society" is much less..

    Long live our cars Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    The bad news: I left my GT3 today to my dealer. So yes, I have stopped driving. I can be stupid but not that much! :)

    Porsche still don't know what to do / fix. So I don't expect to see my car back soon... :(

    The good news: I will have a Turbo S instead, to try on road and track! So yes, I could say RC "I have tried both, I know the differences... GT3 is a better car!". :p


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Good luck and have fun iGirl :)

    The ideal solution would be for Porsche to admit 'cost cutting' did not work and replace all 991 GT3 9A1 engines with the Mezger block that they are currently using in the race program...! :)


    --

    RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GTlover:
    reginos:

    Since we have no further news about the health of the afflicted GT3, we diverted to politics!

    As with politics also with cars a lot is based on propaganda. People are fickle and gullible. The GT3 attracted godlike admiration up 10 days ago, whereas now it is on the delete list. Same with political figures and events.

     harsh words..but certainly some thruth in it.

    However, comparing a GT3 to politics..you cant compare this. The lifespan of our dumm and corrupt politicians - Im using the word "corrupt" here on purpose - as it happens a lot in Germany also - but not under the term "corrupt" but more under the term "nepotism" - is maybe 10 years..exceptions do exist and if they do exist the are relying on what I just said.

    Anyway, my point is, Porsche has been building things that are still years after end of production admired and well sought after..Porsche 917, 962, TAG F1, 959, C-GT, GT3..all these things are still admired by many - and many even pay lots of money for this. I highly doubt people will in 20 years say or admire Ms Merkel for her brave and effficient actions on solving the economic crisis in Europe. I just cant see people meeting up  in 20 years in "Merkel fanclubs" and discuss her great actions. In 20 years she will be forgotten and be worth a small paragraph in history books but our cars, still in 20 years people will try to drive a GT3, meet up on sunday morning, exchange their passion etc.

    The example of Merkel could be portrayed to many EU politicians..and Im sorry for this excursion to the politics here - I like it :). My personal opinion is that she is one of the dummest chancellors Germany ever had, above all she is lying to its people - and its future generations. Porsche is nothing against that..they have some short term problem now..but their "harm to society" is much less..

    Long live our cars Smiley

    I did the GT3-Politics analogy to show how people's perceptions can change very quickly. People are easy to bury something or someone and quickly proclaim the new "king".

    I don't know much about Ms Merkel but many people in my country admire the German austere and efficient running of the Euro economy whilst others find it inhumane and too harsh. Definitely, politicians in our times are disposable. They come and go and are forgotten. They can appear from nowhere, govern and fade away in 5-10 years. Look at Matteo Renzi. Very few outside Italy knew of him last week.

    As to Porsche I've been inspired by this name since I couldn't drive or afford a car and I know everything about the cars. I am not just a customer but a fan. Recently, my enthusiasm has been diluted with their change of focus away from sportcars and motorsport, but I haven't found a substitute that I could like more, yet.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    boytronic:

    Good luck and have fun iGirl :)

    The ideal solution would be for Porsche to admit 'cost cutting' did not work and replace all 991 GT3 9A1 engines with the Mezger block that they are currently using in the race program...! :)

    The problem is the block? Or the con-rod or the crankshaft? No one knows what is wrong. Not even RC with his Zuffenhausen contacts. Although, he insinuated that it is supplier as opposed to a design problem.

    What is this fixation with the old Mezger engine? BMW design and produce new engines for road and motorsport almost every couple of years, without any problems.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:
     

    What is this fixation with the old Mezger engine? BMW design and produce new engines for road and motorsport almost every couple of years, without any problems.

    Eh, no Smiley BMW has recalled several hundred thousand cars due to engine problems. Including cars that have burnt down to the ground. I posted about the F10 M5 above, but there are lots of more cases and worse ones too.


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Although people are fickle and always have been, the "flash in the pan" ( here today gone tomorrow) effect has been hugely magnified by instaneous global communications, the pressure to report unvetted information in a 24h news cycle, and a natural tendency toward group think. GM is recalling millions of vehicles over a multi year period involving at least 13 deaths due to a faulty ignition switch.  In contrast Porsche appears the model of corporate good behavior despite the internet ballyhoo.


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bluelines:
    reginos:
     

    What is this fixation with the old Mezger engine? BMW design and produce new engines for road and motorsport almost every couple of years, without any problems.

    Eh, no Smiley BMW has recalled several hundred thousand cars due to engine problems. Including cars that have burnt down to the ground. I posted about the F10 M5 above, but there are lots of more cases and worse ones too.

    I only knew about the M5 recall and that from your post above. Perhaps, BMW woes are not publicized to non-customer, as much. But I suppose, a Porsche on fire attracts more media attention than a burning BMW.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I think to call us fickle just because the GT3 is now on our "delete list" is a little unfair. Take me for instance, I am no longer entertaining the idea of buying the GT3 (at least in the short term) simply because this is an expensive car for me and I can't afford to have an engine blow up on a track day and Porsche not covering it under warranty. If I am as wealthy as some others here or perhaps cars are as cheap here as in US, it would be less of an issue. But to drop $350k on this new car, I would expect something that is track reliable like the previous three GT3 I have purchased in the past.

    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    DaveC:

    Although people are fickle and always have been, the "flash in the pan" ( here today gone tomorrow) effect has been hugely magnified by instaneous global communications, the pressure to report unvetted information in a 24h news cycle, and a natural tendency toward group think. 

    Too true!      Smiley

    PS at WAY:  I think that the term "fickle" was likely to be aimed at "public opinion" as expressed on the net, rather than at people like you who have a considerable amount of financial interest in a situation and are therefore fully entitled to consider their immediate reactions to it. 

    --

    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    nberry:

    Every country has its dark chapter. Unfairly, Germans get their noses rubbed into it more than most.

    The Nazis weren't just a dark chapter but I guess it is difficult to discuss this with people of arab descent, as much as it hurts me to say it. I worked with many arabs and most of them saw Hitler as some sort of personal hero because he killed the jews. Sorry, Nick but this is a reality. This may also explain the very good reputation Germans have in the Middle East, another weird fact. Don't say this is not true, I met tons of people from the Middle East and 99% of them were at some point telling me how much they admire Germans...and what they did in WWII. "Funny" side story: After the jews, Hitler would have killed the arabs too, it would have been just a matter of time. Not many arabs with blue eyes, blonde hair and fair skin around the Middle East. Smiley

    Sorry for being a little bit more political than I should but we take our Nazi past more serious than others. I agree, modern Germany is completely different and even if there are some Nazi groups still around, we have less "self-declared" Nazis than the US for example. I actually worry much more about the leftist movement in Germany, not the right wing one. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    RC I think the middle eastern people you met are either palestinians or Egyptians because they were in war or think Jews are there enemy. For us Arabs we find hitler interesting person but we don't admire him of course. And making jokes about serious leaders is not funny (most arab will agree with me) it doesn't make us laugh nor make us angry.  

    Killing Jews in WWII is horrible even if Palestinians don't agree. Most of middle eastern say they are proud of hitler for what he did , but they are not really serious. And It's not a religious thing too. Because in islam Jews deserve to practice their religion just like any other religion on earth. Arabs just angry for Palestine their country .  Sorry to go into politics just wanted to  disagree with what you said.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    What the Nazi's did in WW2 against the Jews and other ethnic groups was done before most Germans alive today were born. It is unfair to tarnish today's Germans for what happened before they were born.

    FWIW, the tragedy of the Holocaust perpetrated by Hitler and his henchmen ironically was the most important event leading to the creation of Israel. But for his actions, Israel would not exist. In many ways, the six million Jews that were murdered did not die for nothing. Sadly, some of their progeny have not learned from what their forefathers experienced.

    Back to the GT3. it is almost three weeks of investigation by Porsche and nothing has been resolved. It appears the problem is eluding Porsche engineers. Not an encouraging sign.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    The old doctrine of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

    It has been applied by many throughout history but it backfired in many cases in ancient and modern history and in more recent events.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    ... Back to the GT3. it is almost three weeks of investigation by Porsche and nothing has been resolved. It appears the problem is eluding Porsche engineers. Not an encouraging sign.  

    It could mean at least a couple of things. It might mean they understand the nature of the problem, but an immediate solution is not obvious or available. It could mean that they are having difficulty pinpointing the exact cause of the problem, which might mean it is either complex or limited to some small number of vehicles and difficult to diagnose as a result. Or, it could just mean that they want to have all their ducks in a row before announcing anything.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    Back to the GT3. it is almost three weeks of investigation by Porsche and nothing has been resolved. It appears the problem is eluding Porsche engineers. Not an encouraging sign.  

    If its a manufacturing error (material or human), they could be finishing the investigation and starting to determine the scope and plan for re-work by now. 

    But 3 weeks is no time at all if its a design flaw.  Assuming you know the problem (and Porsche should by now), then you have to get the new design in place, reviewed, possible test parts made (which might mean getting tooling made/modified plus materials lead time). Then the new parts must be tested/qualified along with any parts they influence.  As this is safety critical, there is also the not insignificant task of getting the new safety case made and approved.  

    I can't understand the fuss becasue Porsche have reacted appropriately and quickly IMO.  If their communication has been lacklustre, a small portion of blame should be laid with the customers and the media who seem to have totally unrealistic expectations of a thorough engineering investigation


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GR:
    I can't understand the fuss becasue Porsche have reacted appropriately and quickly IMO.  If their communication has been lacklustre, a small portion of blame should be laid with the customers and the media who seem to have totally unrealistic expectations of a thorough engineering investigation

    +991 Smiley

    I really don't get the fuss either, but it is best described as mass online hysteria feeding itself. One post every 5 minutes and there is "still no word from Porsche" so heads should roll and engineers burn in hell. Sigh.


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    I only knew about the M5 recall and that from your post above. Perhaps, BMW woes are not publicized to non-customer, as much. But I suppose, a Porsche on fire attracts more media attention than a burning BMW.

    Yes, I suppose so too. Not sure that is a positive or negative thing Smiley

    BMW had to recall over 76'000 2012-2014 models due to brake failure (risk of complete loss of power brake assist) and 32'000 2008-2011 models due overheating circuit board (engine compartment fire risk). In the latter case two cars burnt.

    It is also reported that Aston Martin will have to recall 17'590 vehicles built since late 2007 due to counterfeit Chinese parts (risk of accelerator arm fracture).


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Guy's Porsche has only produced 785 GT3's and no all delivered . They received notice over three weeks ago of two cars burning. Both with very low mileage. Those that took delivery earlier and have put thousands of miles of DD and track miles have not had any similar problems.

    Porsche cars are computerize to the point where they can record what happens with the engine almost instantaneously. Three weeks of "still investigating" while owners are told not to drive their cars and dealers told they cannot sell or deliver GT3's is not what I consider reasonable time parameters given the circumstances. 

    Porsche has what is reputed to be the best automotive engineers in the business. If they cannot figure out why two of their cars burned after three weeks of investigation my red flag goes up. I would like to think they know what the problem is but are debating how best to handle it i.e. let the dealer repair or  something more drastic like new engine or sending Porsche technicians from German to effectuate the repairs.

    Either way they need to move the process along faster. Imagine if 20,000 cars were affected. You think Porsche investigation and fix would have the same time table?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    DaveC:

    Although people are fickle and always have been, the "flash in the pan" ( here today gone tomorrow) effect has been hugely magnified by instaneous global communications, the pressure to report unvetted information in a 24h news cycle, and a natural tendency toward group think. GM is recalling millions of vehicles over a multi year period involving at least 13 deaths due to a faulty ignition switch.  In contrast Porsche appears the model of corporate good behavior despite the internet ballyhoo.


    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

    Yes, and as a result of providing the customer with inferior product, General Motors was forced by the federal government into 363 bankruptcy and restructuring.  That recall is a primary example of the crap that GM has built and sold to hardworking Americans.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    If it was thousands of cars, it would be easy to find the cause. With 2 out of ~785, both severely damaged, much harder.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    Guy's Porsche has only produced 785 GT3's and no all delivered . They received notice over three weeks ago of two cars burning. Both with very low mileage. Those that took delivery earlier and have put thousands of miles of DD and track miles have not had any similar problems.

    Porsche cars are computerize to the point where they can record what happens with the engine almost instantaneously. Three weeks of "still investigating" while owners are told not to drive their cars and dealers told they cannot sell or deliver GT3's is not what I consider reasonable time parameters given the circumstances. 

    Porsche has what is reputed to be the best automotive engineers in the business. If they cannot figure out why two of their cars burned after three weeks of investigation my red flag goes up. I would like to think they know what the problem is but are debating how best to handle it i.e. let the dealer repair or  something more drastic like new engine or sending Porsche technicians from German to effectuate the repairs.

    Either way they need to move the process along faster. Imagine if 20,000 cars were affected. You think Porsche investigation and fix would have the same time table?

    Plus there are a number of other factors at play:

    1. It is the flagship model, most sought after and revered as the benchmark amongst sports cars. 

    2. Customers have paid a lot of money and some waited a long time for delivery. 

    3. The journalists have spoken of the new GT3 as being one of the best sports cars they have ever driven. 

    4. When the world knows about the issue through Top Gear, albeit in a humorous way, there is big risk of reputational damage - especially if the fix doesn't work and another one goes up in flames - which could get repeat coverage in the press with loss of credibility. 

    Just read on PH that the GT3 Silverstone experience day March end has been cancelled for customers... This could mean a fix is not expected to be delivered by then...


    --

    RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

     In 20 years she will be forgotten and be worth a small paragraph in history books but our cars, still in 20 years people will try to drive a GT3, meet up on sunday morning, exchange their passion etc.

    Funny... when I read this, "Red Barchetta" popped into my head.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    What day was the GT3 Silverstone experience scheduled for in March?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    fritz:
    DaveC:

    Although people are fickle and always have been, the "flash in the pan" ( here today gone tomorrow) effect has been hugely magnified by instaneous global communications, the pressure to report unvetted information in a 24h news cycle, and a natural tendency toward group think. 

    Too true!      Smiley

    PS at WAY:  I think that the term "fickle" was likely to be aimed at "public opinion" as expressed on the net, rather than at people like you who have a considerable amount of financial interest in a situation and are therefore fully entitled to consider their immediate reactions to it. 

    --

    fritz

    SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    What day was the GT3 Silverstone experience scheduled for in March?

    The end of March was quoted.  Not sure of exact date. But it could just be a precaution. 


    --

    RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    996AD:
    RC I think the middle eastern people you met are either palestinians or Egyptians because they were in war or think Jews are there enemy. For us Arabs we find hitler interesting person but we don't admire him of course. And making jokes about serious leaders is not funny (most arab will agree with me) it doesn't make us laugh nor make us angry.  

    Killing Jews in WWII is horrible even if Palestinians don't agree. Most of middle eastern say they are proud of hitler for what he did , but they are not really serious. And It's not a religious thing too. Because in islam Jews deserve to practice their religion just like any other religion on earth. Arabs just angry for Palestine their country .  Sorry to go into politics just wanted to  disagree with what you said.

    I have to apologize for using generalizations in my post (I just re-read it) but my experience is limited to Iraqis, Syrians, some Saudis and of course Palestinians (christians or muslims, same opinions but christians seem to be a bit less radical in their opinions). Sorry for not being more accurate, I know how hurtful generalizations can be at times and this wasn't my intention. Smiley  It was many years ago, so people may have changed but my experience at that time was pretty shocking.

    Now back to topic: I feel sorry for GT3 owners or those who ordered one. Not because they got a badly engineered car (no, you didn't!!!) but because of the current uncertainty and the lack of more information. Porsche did the right thing telling owners not to drive their cars anymore and I also hope that they really take care of these customers in a proper way to gain back their trust. This isn't necessarily about money or reputation but trust. If customers don't trust Porsche anymore, if customers do not believe the new GT3 is a reliable and track-worthy successor over the "old design", this could really hurt Porsche and the whole GT3 model line for many years to come.

    Porsche is under a lot of pressure here and I really hope they understand the importance of handling this particular "case" in a proper manner.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Just to lighten the mood again. I find it quite funny. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    indecisionkiss


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)
    It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    TB993tt:
    I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)
    It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

    How could Porsche engeering make this kind of mistake!!!!! It´s really hard to believe Smiley But if you think what happend during 10 years in a row of 9X6 series engine blow outs without Porsche having the ability to correct the problem Smiley...oh well Smiley


    --

    J.Seven


     
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