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    Re: Huracan AMS test

    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    Which is what Piech wanted. He never liked Porsche the brand. Audi is HIS baby. 

    If he cares a tiny bit about Porsche the brand, he would have back off Audi and position it as the entry luxury division for VAG, bridging the gap between VW and Porsche and above, i.e. Lambo and Bentley. AS it stands right now, he put Audi right in the middle of Porsche's market. 

    If I were him, I would price the R8 at around 4S level just to squeeze Porsche further. Make the R8 the German version of the Nissan GTR. Cheap thrills. 

    So why did he "give" Porsche the development for all sportscars in the VW Group? Smiley

     

    Reluctantly. Audi protested the decision to the end.


    --

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    I will put it little bit differently since I personally know people who works at NSU and at P. They gave me perspective from quattro Gmbh and Porsche regarding sportscar development. To give all of you a big hint it is pretty different prespective. I like quattro Gmbh overall prespective much more then Porsche one. Why? When you see what will come from Porsche development for all sportscars in VW you will understand why. Many sportscar fans will be in-depth dissapointed with Porsche views of the future. Only die hard Porsche fans will be partially satisfied.

    And btw, what are advantages of 991 TS over Huracan?

    Useless rear seats?

    Better daily usability? 

    For almost the same price?

    As you will see from Huracan Supertest results 991 TS is way overpriced for what is offers overall. This is the reason why I choose normal Turbo.

     

     

     

     

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    noone1:

    Teachers and salesmen? In China -- one of the biggest and important markets -- they are selling 50K car per month. One of the cheapest volume Audis I see on the road here, and A4, is about $50K. $80K for an A6. Anything above an A6 -- and there are lots -- is probably $100-200K. There are probably more $100K Audis sold in China than there are $100K Porsche sold in the US.

    Audi has a different image in Germany than in other countries. For me, Audi is not a luxury brand, it is a little bit above VW and thats it. Maybe at par with BMW but below Mercedes.This is why I do not "get" the R8 at all.

    A mid-engine Porsche might sell better than a mid-engine Audi, but they can't sell in the same price range. R8 is a high-end 911 to Turbo price. Porsche would just trade high-end 911 and TT sales for mid-engine sales, and those sales would probably have lower margins because of the economies of scale in the 911 production.

    You never know before they don't try it.

    Each brand can only demand so much. Anyone can sell cheaper car, but there is a ceiling on what people are willing to pay for a brand. Makes more sense to let both brands sell at their best rather than get rid of one and sandbag the other.

    The R8 is too flashy to be a true competitor for the 911 in my opinion.

    The $250-300K range is also a range with plenty of buyer overlap. In those range, you often aren't just competing customer for customer. A lot of those people will have no problem owning multiple high-end cars, so you really can probably sell them a Lamborghini in years 1-2, then sell them a Porsche years 3-4, then the new Ferrari 5-6. Product life cycles aren't entirely in sync and there are always different cars to own at different times. Also plenty of people in the world who just want the latest and greatest.

    I know a couple of high end buyers who buy a Lamborghini or Ferrari, simply because they don't want a 911 and Porsche has nothing else to offer in the sports car segment.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    I think it's a myth that 911 owners buy them because they don't want something flashy. In reality it's just that regular 911 owners usually can't or don't want to spend $200-300K and/or don't really care about super-high performance. 

    $100 says I can get the vast majority of 991 C2S owners in the world to trade it for a 918.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    noone1:

    I think it's a myth that 911 owners buy them because they don't want something flashy. In reality it's just that regular 911 owners usually can't or don't want to spend $200-300K and/or don't really care about super-high performance. 

    $100 says I can get the vast majority of 991 C2S owners in the world to trade it for a 918.

    The 911 is one of the most successful business cars in Germany and other parts of Europe. It is so because it is not flashy. This is not a myth. I own a 911 because it is not flashy (neighborhood, kids, etc.). I know this is difficult to understand for people from other regions but the 911 is really more of a sportscar for people who enjoy driving rather than showing off. It is also a car you can usually easily park in parking garages without hitting the ground.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Whoopsy:
    RC:
    Whoopsy:

    Which is what Piech wanted. He never liked Porsche the brand. Audi is HIS baby. 

    If he cares a tiny bit about Porsche the brand, he would have back off Audi and position it as the entry luxury division for VAG, bridging the gap between VW and Porsche and above, i.e. Lambo and Bentley. AS it stands right now, he put Audi right in the middle of Porsche's market. 

    If I were him, I would price the R8 at around 4S level just to squeeze Porsche further. Make the R8 the German version of the Nissan GTR. Cheap thrills. 

    So why did he "give" Porsche the development for all sportscars in the VW Group? Smiley

     

    Reluctantly. Audi protested the decision to the end.

    Yes, indeed but it was really Piech's idea as far as I heard. So Piech values Weissach quite high.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    RC:
    noone1:

    I think it's a myth that 911 owners buy them because they don't want something flashy. In reality it's just that regular 911 owners usually can't or don't want to spend $200-300K and/or don't really care about super-high performance. 

    $100 says I can get the vast majority of 991 C2S owners in the world to trade it for a 918.

    The 911 is one of the most successful business cars in Germany and other parts of Europe. It is so because it is not flashy. This is not a myth. I own a 911 because it is not flashy (neighborhood, kids, etc.). I know this is difficult to understand for people from other regions but the 911 is really more of a sportscar for people who enjoy driving rather than showing off. It is also a car you can usually easily park in parking garages without hitting the ground.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    But how much of that is due to the fact they they build 100K cars a year with very similar design language? Of course people won't notice a 911 if they are on every street corner.

    I really do think that people would still buy a mid-engine, more exotic looking Porsche if it was the same price as the 911 and they made 20K a year. Then again, it wouldn't be exotic looking if that was the case due to how common they'd be.

    It's like a F430 in Monaco -- no one cares except tourist.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    A two seater wouldn't sell that good in Germany and other parts of Europe. The 911 has a reputation of an excellent daily driver and it is.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    @noone1, you have to consider that in many places, insurance are cheaper for a 4 seater than a 2 seater, no matter how useless the rear seats are. That's one reason to buy a 911 over the 2 seater competition.


    --

     


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Insurance wasn't a factor in me getting my TTS but it was a nice surprise to find out how little it was to insure - $700! Just a bit more than my BMW 750 and on par with a M3...


    --

    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    RC:

    Audi has a different image in Germany than in other countries. For me, Audi is not a luxury brand, it is a little bit above VW and thats it. Maybe at par with BMW but below Mercedes.This is why I do not "get" the R8 at all

     

    This is a very "old school" understanding. You probably haven't spend enough time in Audi's from the last decade. The only model that can give some special bragging rights to Mercedes is the AMG 65 range....Which with is irrelevant these days and is more of a status symbol.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Herbaliser:
    RC:

    Audi has a different image in Germany than in other countries. For me, Audi is not a luxury brand, it is a little bit above VW and thats it. Maybe at par with BMW but below Mercedes.This is why I do not "get" the R8 at all

     

    This is a very "old school" understanding. You probably haven't spend enough time in Audi's from the last decade. The only model that can give some special bragging rights to Mercedes is the AMG 65 range....Which with is irrelevant these days and is more of a status symbol.

    Audis are your typical middle class cars over here, mostly driven by sales reps or normal employees.

    When it comes to luxury cars, BMW and Mercedes play the game, Audi not so much. I barely see Audi A8 in Germany (and I really like the latest model) and the R8 is not your typical Audi.

    This is not old school understanding, this is a fact. I know that the perception of German car brands is different in other countries, for example Volkswagen in the US (pretty bad image, the image in Germany is much better).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Audi in Switzerland is the main car for corporates / business   . The lower positions get an A4 and the higher ones an A6 , even up to the top management .

    Otherwise it is the main choice for the upper class  ,  as they are perceived as very good quality cars, with good engines and options, perfect interior and ...... understated  .


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Maybe we should go back to the main topic, the Huracan. 

    I just saw the Hockenheim Kleiner Ring time for the Huracan...1.08.8 min. The 991 Turbo S needed 1.08.7 min. Both cars on semi-slicks but the Huracan was equipped with the fabulous Trofeo R.

    I have to say that I'm not impressed with the Huracan performance.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Over here Audi has grown up a lot as a brand regarding image. In the 80/90 it was seen as a clearly inferior product compared to BMW being Mercedes the Top brand in this class. Thrue out the years Audi has recover a lot and BMW went a bit down. Nowadays Mercdes remain the Top brand follow by BMW and Audi in same level.

    BMW had been lost ground because their cars are not so special as they use to be. I remember back in the 80/90 the 3series was always much more sporty and fresh than the old 190 or A4.The new X5 or 6 are a joke design wise, the 3 series is boring to look at, 7 series is starting to look old being the 5 series the only one I like. It´s a shame.


    --

    J.Seven

    997.2 Cab 2S

    Maserati Quattroporte Sport GTS

    BMW X6 4.0D

    BMW X5 4.4i V8


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    KresoF1:

    I will put it little bit differently since I personally know people who works at NSU and at P. They gave me perspective from quattro Gmbh and Porsche regarding sportscar development. To give all of you a big hint it is pretty different prespective. I like quattro Gmbh overall prespective much more then Porsche one. Why? When you see what will come from Porsche development for all sportscars in VW you will understand why. Many sportscar fans will be in-depth dissapointed with Porsche views of the future. Only die hard Porsche fans will be partially satisfied.

    Lost respect for Porsche back in 2011 / 2012  Smiley  been saying it for some time now, P has lost it and they will soon start to compete with the likes of Toyota / Lexus in monthly sales chart with the help of VW and their 4 banger engines.

    I'm glad there's a substitute (Ferrari / Lamborghini / AMG etc...)

    And btw, what are advantages of 991 TS over Huracan?

    Two tiny turbos that will run out of steam quickly once you hit 200 km/h Smiley

    Useless rear seats?

    Better daily usability? 

    Used to be, but not anymore....

    For almost the same price?

    The laughing stock part, which is too difficult to swallow

    Back on topic:

    I saw my first Huracan on the road couple of days ago, I must say it sounded amazing for a stock car!

    I wonder if Lambo plans to introduce LDF in the V12 lineup any time soonSmiley


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    RC:

    Maybe we should go back to the main topic, the Huracan. 

    I just saw the Hockenheim Kleiner Ring time for the Huracan...1.08.8 min. The 991 Turbo S needed 1.08.7 min. Both cars on semi-slicks but the Huracan was equipped with the fabulous Trofeo R.

    I have to say that I'm not impressed with the Huracan performance.

     

    Huracan could be 2sec slower on the Ring and 1 second slower to 200Kph costing more $ still I would choose it over TTS without any doubt. On this price range you want something special, not a 911 in steroids The TTS is the best balanced sports car in the market, it makes everything well, I like the 991 and believe to be the best 911 ever, but it´s just that, the Huracan is an Event just to sit on and look at, I´m dieing to drive the thing!

    --

    J.Seven

    997.2 Cab 2S

    Maserati Quattroporte Sport GTS

    BMW X6 4.0D

    BMW X5 4.4i V8


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    So what are used 991 TT/S going for nowadays? Can't be pretty...


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Dusseldorf and also Bensberg Porsche Zentrum have one unit each from 9/2013 and 7/2013 for 172K eur. same price for both.


    --

    J.Seven

    997.2 Cab 2S

    Maserati Quattroporte Sport GTS

    BMW X6 4.0D

    BMW X5 4.4i V8


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    The 991 Turbo S sells quite well in Germany, better than the GT3 for example. I don't know how it sells in other countries though but Porsche seems to be happy with the sales figures. Maybe not in the UK (special edition model)?


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    J.Seven:

     

    Huracan could be 2sec slower on the Ring and 1 second slower to 200Kph costing more $ still I would choose it over TTS without any doubt. On this price range you want something special, not a 911 in steroids The TTS is the best balanced sports car in the market, it makes everything well, I like the 991 and believe to be the best 911 ever, but it´s just that, the Huracan is an Event just to sit on and look at, I´m dieing to drive the thing!

    I wonder how this would work out for you in Portugal. Over here in Germany, in my small town, they would probably set fire to my house if I would park a Huracan in front of it. Smiley I cannot believe it is much different in Portugal. One of my daughter's best friends is from Portugal and her parents always tell us how they envy the "rich" in Portugal and how people hate them in their fancy yachts and sports cars. Maybe they are a minority (they are lower middle class) but still...I wouldn't want to drive a Huracan in Germany, at least not in a small town with narrow minded, very envious people who know almost everything about you, including the size of your underwear. Smiley

    In Miami, I would definitely choose the Huracan over the 991 Turbo S, no doubt about it. Maybe even in a flashy color.

    Speaking of daily driver capabilities, I don't think there are many sports cars out there on the market to rival the 991 Turbo S, if any. One harsh Bavarian winter is the best proof for that. Also, the rear seats are important but apparently only people who travel at lot in their sports cars or who have kids or even animals, understand that. Last but not least, the German tax office would accept much easier a 991 Turbo S as a business car than a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. This is a fact, not a myth. It is also no secret that almost all Ferrari and Lamborghini in Germany are registered on a business and believe it or not, there aren't many of them (which proves my point with the tax office).

    We can talk about this all day long but facts cannot be wiped away. For many owners, the 991 Turbo S has huge advantages and while the Huracan may be visually more pleasing, there is nothing else more left. Performance up to 200 kph is very similar (which counts for most speed limited countries) and track performance is even worse. So...if you want to show off, the Huracan surely is the car to go with but may I remind you that there are people who want to stay under the radar and the 991 Turbo S is just perfect for this purpose. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    About that Hockenheim time...

    Huracan 1.08,8min Pirelli Trofeo 

    991 TS 1.08,7min Dunlop Sport Maxx

    991 T 1.09,6min Dunlop Sport Maxx

    See the interesting thing? There is NO way that 991TS is 1s faster then 991T (both cars with same dynamic goodies. PDCC, PCCB, Sport Chrono on 991 T test example) on extremly short Hockenheim Klein Kurs. 

    Even W.Rohrl said that there is no difference amoung 991T and 991TS regarding track times amd that acceleration wise differences are in best case marginal as possible. But, what the Hell to W. Rohrl knows anyway...

    991 GT3 is also according to Sport Auto slower on Hockenheim then 991TS which supriesed even Porsche employees since according to their own factory drivers that is not the case.

    Btw, Huracan is faster on the Ring then 991 TS which will be published in one 8f the future issues of the Sport Auto.


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    "Even W.Rohrl said that there is no difference amoung 991T and 991TS regarding track times"

    Source? I heard something different.   The 991 Turbo S is faster because of the higher boost pressure and higher rev limit/power delivery rpm. According to my source, this makes a huge impact on the track, not so much on the road though.

    I agree, there isn't much difference in real world performance between the 991 Turbo and Turbo S but why would I want to order a 991 Turbo without PCCB, Sport Chrono or LED lights? So the price difference between both is really pretty small, this is why my dealer sells mostly Turbo S and offers better deals on the regular Turbo.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Christian,

    Be reasonable here. We are talking about very short Hockenheim Klein Kurs here, not extremly long track a la the Ring. 1s is a huge difference on Hockenheim Klein Kurs. And no, I do not belive that 991TS is 0.9s faster then 991T on flat and short Hockenheim Klein Kurs.  

    Do you know what is the difference between 0-300km/h for 991TS and 991T? Only 0.8s...


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    Who cares anymore? LOL. ;)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    And btw, difference in price is rather big if you choose your options wisely for 991T.

    I do not need stupid interior CF trim or partially leather back seats on Adaptive sport seats plus. Also, PCCB s do make any sense to me. 

    My 991T with options like PDCC,  Sport Chrono+, LEDS,  Sport Classic wheels,  Adaptive seats plus etc. Is costing 20K € less then 991TS (German prices). That is a difference IMHO. 


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    RC:
    J.Seven:

     

    Huracan could be 2sec slower on the Ring and 1 second slower to 200Kph costing more $ still I would choose it over TTS without any doubt. On this price range you want something special, not a 911 in steroids The TTS is the best balanced sports car in the market, it makes everything well, I like the 991 and believe to be the best 911 ever, but it´s just that, the Huracan is an Event just to sit on and look at, I´m dieing to drive the thing!

    I wonder how this would work out for you in Portugal. Over here in Germany, in my small town, they would probably set fire to my house if I would park a Huracan in front of it. Smiley I cannot believe it is much different in Portugal. One of my daughter's best friends is from Portugal and her parents always tell us how they envy the "rich" in Portugal and how people hate them in their fancy yachts and sports cars. Maybe they are a minority (they are lower middle class) but still...I wouldn't want to drive a Huracan in Germany, at least not in a small town with narrow minded, very envious people who know almost everything about you, including the size of your underwear. Smiley

    In Miami, I would definitely choose the Huracan over the 991 Turbo S, no doubt about it. Maybe even in a flashy color.

    Speaking of daily driver capabilities, I don't think there are many sports cars out there on the market to rival the 991 Turbo S, if any. One harsh Bavarian winter is the best proof for that. Also, the rear seats are important but apparently only people who travel at lot in their sports cars or who have kids or even animals, understand that. Last but not least, the German tax office would accept much easier a 991 Turbo S as a business car than a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. This is a fact, not a myth. It is also no secret that almost all Ferrari and Lamborghini in Germany are registered on a business and believe it or not, there aren't many of them (which proves my point with the tax office).

    We can talk about this all day long but facts cannot be wiped away. For many owners, the 991 Turbo S has huge advantages and while the Huracan may be visually more pleasing, there is nothing else more left. Performance up to 200 kph is very similar (which counts for most speed limited countries) and track performance is even worse. So...if you want to show off, the Huracan surely is the car to go with but may I remind you that there are people who want to stay under the radar and the 991 Turbo S is just perfect for this purpose. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    Where I leave there's plenty of high end models rolling specially at the weekends so some how people are use to it, still a Huracan keeps a lot of attention in any part in the world. Nowadays people are cool about sports cars, I have had many funny stories with people coming and ask questions and start to chat, specially with the Maserati, unbelieveble  how much attention this car has, before I had one, I wouldn't imagine it could kept so much attention from people with 8 to 75 years old, so it doesn't bring any trouble to have a sports car in this part of the country. Friends with Lambos and Bentleys do say the same thing. Of course there are always those who are jealous , but I could care less, we only leave once, so the hell with ignorance and to deal with this low minded people best attitude is Smiley

    As you said we can stay here all day long discussion, but it all comes down from what we want from a car, as long as we are happy with our choices , that is the most important Smiley

     


    --

    J.Seven

    997.2 Cab 2S

    Maserati Quattroporte Sport GTS

    BMW X6 4.0D

    BMW X5 4.4i V8


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    The most important thing is my family and if my cars start to affect my family in any way, this is a huge problem. With my kids having friends in the neighborhood and with their friends seeing our cars in the garage, they really have issues with that. My daughter already asks me not to pick her up at school or at her friends' houses in the Boxster S or the 911 Turbo S and even my Jeep is a problem because it sounds pretty loud and it is out of the ordinary. 

    Yes, we only live once but I have a responsibility towards my kids. Also, expensive cars, exotic cars, attract people around you, people you don't actually want to attract. A friend in Munich bought a Ferrari a couple of years ago and a couple of days later, he had a burglar in his house. Maybe a coincidence but you need to be aware of your surroundings. I doubt this is more relaxed in Portugal but I am glad that you don't care. I don't have the luxury to do that.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    KresoF1:

    And btw, difference in price is rather big if you choose your options wisely for 991T.

    I do not need stupid interior CF trim or partially leather back seats on Adaptive sport seats plus. Also, PCCB s do make any sense to me. 

    My 991T with options like PDCC,  Sport Chrono+, LEDS,  Sport Classic wheels,  Adaptive seats plus etc. Is costing 20K € less then 991TS (German prices). That is a difference IMHO. 

    PCCB is a must have option for the 991 Turbo and Turbo S, like it or not. Without PCCB, the car would only be half of the fun because I can actually pinpoint my braking with razor-sharp accuracy. Doing the same with my Boxster S (no PCCB) is impossible. This is actually the biggest advantage of the PCCB in my opinion but to each his own I guess.

    CF trim looks very nice but of course this is a matter of personal taste. With the same options, the price difference between the Turbo and Turbo S is aprox. 4-5k EUR. Ridiculous.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Huracan AMS test

    PCCBs are the best brakes I have ever used and very confidence inspiring. And I have had to use them in anger to scrub off speed to avoid someone who decided to turn in on me in the most stupid way at the last second.

    I also think PDCC makes a very big different for spirited driving. 

     

    --

    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab


     
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