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    Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    I have a MY05 997 S TIP and want to get a little more "performance" out of it without doing Major work and spending a ton fo money.... I bought the car used a few months ago thru an auto broker friend of mine, so I never really spoke to the seller directly. He told my broker he had a "sport" exhaust added, so I assumed he got an aftermarket exhaust, but after talking to someone local that knows about that stuff, he told me that I had a factory Sport exhaust. I think it is stamped Eisenmann on it and it had the orange plug inside the engine compartment... He also told me that I could unplug the orange plug to make the car sound better and to be honest, I couldn't tell the difference...

    I put a K & N air filter in, and didn't notice any difference in sound or performance, I put on a Schnell COld air tube and plug and still didn't notice any difference in sound or performance....

    The only two upgrades I can think of wihtout doing major work are, "Sports" Catalytic convertors (IE: Fabspeed etc...) and/ or ECU reprogramming... Do the sports cats make any difference in sound or performance? and does an ECU reprogramming really do anything, and if so, why do different people charge different amounts to do it, i'm talking $1000-2000 differences...

    And last but not least, what, if any other mods can be done?

    Thanks!

    Marc

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    When I owned my S, I thought it was great the way it was with the exception of exhaust (I'd go with the PSE), maybe a ltw fly (but you have a tip), and possibly wheels/tires. The rest of the bolt on stuff for low cost adds precious little to performance with extra maintenance (oiled filters) and possibly engine longevity (although highly debatable, I used a K&N on one car and I think it contributed to the engine's demise). Real power that you can feel is expensive, such as a RUF Kompressor.

    You should note this: The factory X51 is big bucks, yet they only get what, 26 hp. It's already been proven that (i) it's hard to really feel the 26 hp, (ii) testing shows precious little in straight line performance, and (iii) the aftermarket has NOT been able to duplicate this hp. For example the F77 package from Champion only makes 2 hp or the like for thousands (see recent issue of Excellence), although it does bump midrange tq.

    Aftermarket vendors *hate* when you dyno their products and show the real skinny behind advertised power numbers. That's why things like exhaust for sound, short shift kit for better shifter action, wheels/tires for style, grip, and weight are better aftermarket choices.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    So you are saying that it's best left alone...?

    I'm curious, why do you think the K & N filter was a problem?

    Also, strickly for sound, would Sports Cat make a big difference or am I better off just living with what I have? From what I have heard, the stock Sport exhaust is one of the better sounding exhaust out there????

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    The Porsche sport exhaust sound incredible. I'd put that on in a heartbeat. I think mine is still at my shop if you are interested in it.

    High flow cats can make power in some circumstances, but depending on cat configuration, sometimes tq takes a hit and/or you can get check engine light issues with certain brands.

    I've been modifying cars for years, including bmw and porsches. In modern cars from Germany, so little power is left on the table, unlike big blocks found in cars like the vette. You can spend literally thousands and get 3 hp. Seriously, check the F77 article in the latest excellence and note what porsche charges for their X51 and the sheer depth of the components modified. It is NOT trivial and is NOT a bolt on endeavor.

    The best upgrades to modern porsches are to the driver, to the sound, and controls/aesthetics. Of course, IMO.

    The bottom line is, you have to spend a LOT of money to 'feel' the hp gain. Until you start gaining serious torque, it's hard to feel the results of moderate power gains from bolt ons. One exception is the ltw fly, which is not an option unless you had a manual.

    On various boards, oiled, gauze type filter elements whether from K&N, BMC, etc, have always been susepect. Sure, they can make a few more hp, but at what cost? I had one on my wife's car, and swear we got oil blow by after 50k miles on the K&N. They also require more maintenance.

    Hard to argue with factory tested paper filters.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Quote:
    HWJunkie said:
    So you are saying that it's best left alone...?

    I'm curious, why do you think the K & N filter was a problem?

    Also, strickly for sound, would Sports Cat make a big difference or am I better off just living with what I have? From what I have heard, the stock Sport exhaust is one of the better sounding exhaust out there????



    I like my europipe sportsexhaust more than the PSE, but it's more expensive also...
    Very clean work and more (feelable) torque. The engine reacts more aggressive to the throttle<. From 3000RPm you feel the diffrence.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    With me, the biggest upgrade I made was a trip to PDE to improve my skills. That's not what you were asking, but the best bang for the buck is usually working on the driver. The PDE instructors do love the Tip, BTW.

    Jim

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Quote:
    HWJunkie said:
    He told my broker he had a "sport" exhaust added, so I assumed he got an aftermarket exhaust, but after talking to someone local that knows about that stuff, he told me that I had a factory Sport exhaust. I think it is stamped Eisenmann on it and it had the orange plug inside the engine compartment... He also told me that I could unplug the orange plug to make the car sound better and to be honest, I couldn't tell the difference...
    Marc



    Sounds to me as though the previous owner had PSE fitted and has already done an 'always on' mod. He probably did the other mod (tube disconnection) which would explain why disconnecting the orange plug doesn't appear to change the sound. You would certainly notice the difference if the 'cut-out' was in operation.

    I know that doesn't answer your overall question. You didn't mention the miles on the car. What I would say is that there is a natural increase in performance the more you drive it.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    My car has high mileage, for a Porsche, at 15k...

    And yes, it does appear that the cutoff that the orange plug controls has been disabled and is always loud, alhough, I wouldn't mind it being a little louder but not annoying loud... That's why I was looking into the Sport Cats.... I'm also considering taking off the cold air tube and puting back on the stock one, I don't think it did anything??? I wish I would have got a 6-Speed, but at the time, I thought I was going to drive the car more and I thought my wife was going to drive it here and there, and now, I only drive it once a week at best, and the wife is scared to drive it...LOL

    Not only that, I don't want to spend too much money on it, becuase I'm kicking around trading up to something else.. Maybe a Turbo, or maybe waiting until the new paddle tranny comes out? But I'm still not clear as to when that's actually happening, or even possibly getting a Ferrari or Lambo, but regarding the Italian cars, I'm slowly getting talked out of those because of the huge cost, the high cost of maintenance and insurance and the large depreciation... But who knows, I've been known to do the opposite of what the smart people tell me in the past...LOL

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    I just sold my Ferrari. It was a great car, but not really daily drivable. If you do, it will depreciate like a rock (Ferrari resale only holds true for low mileage cars), servicing is expensive, and there's a lot of 'baggage' that comes along with Ferraris. Lots of negative and postive attention.

    They are rolling artwork, especially the 360 IMHO.

    Insurance wasn't bad at all, not much more than my 997S.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    frayed -

    I wish I could just try a 360 for a week or so. Given that I have not even gone for a ride in one I am hardly worthy to comment on one of your post so please excuse me in advance.

    To be fair to the F77 - it was mentioned that some of their HP resulted from a ram-air effect that they could not measure standing still on the dyno. Those that drove the car did mention the improved torque with can be a nice improvement.

    Also, having seen the stock exhaust manifolds (vs. X51 headers) I do think one could gain some power and lose some weight (very important) IF, and only IF you upgrade to Headers, sport cats, mufflers and a CHIP upgrade to match (Intake is not a hinderance IMHO).
    Any changes without the matching CHIP upgrade will not yield jack but with the CHIP they can find some HP which was left on the table. - At the risk of reliability, for certain.

    There is one CHIP (from GAIC) which allows you to select performance matched (timing, fuel etc.) to 100 Octane fuel. I would like to try that one. If it really does make use of the 100 Octane, AND you can find 100 octane then I bet the HP gains will certainly be noticeable. (There is a handy selector that allows you to set it back to stock or even 'Valet' (wife) once you 'cure' the 100 Octane fever)

    Still, the only way to upgrade this car is to trade it for a 6-speed. Sorry.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    frayed -

    I wish I could just try a 360 for a week or so. Given that I have not even gone for a ride in one I am hardly worthy to comment on one of your post so please excuse me in advance.

    To be fair to the F77 - it was mentioned that some of their HP resulted from a ram-air effect that they could not measure standing still on the dyno. Those that drove the car did mention the improved torque with can be a nice improvement.

    Also, having seen the stock exhaust manifolds (vs. X51 headers) I do think one could gain some power and lose some weight (very important) IF, and only IF you upgrade to Headers, sport cats, mufflers and a CHIP upgrade to match (Intake is not a hinderance IMHO).
    Any changes without the matching CHIP upgrade will not yield jack but with the CHIP they can find some HP which was left on the table. - At the risk of reliability, for certain.

    There is one CHIP (from GAIC) which allows you to select performance matched (timing, fuel etc.) to 100 Octane fuel. I would like to try that one. If it really does make use of the 100 Octane, AND you can find 100 octane then I bet the HP gains will certainly be noticeable. (There is a handy selector that allows you to set it back to stock or even 'Valet' (wife) once you 'cure' the 100 Octane fever)

    Still, the only way to upgrade this car is to trade it for a 6-speed. Sorry.



    No excuse needed.

    F77. Hmm, I understand that the manufacturer (Champion) states power due to ram air effect. The problem is, no matter what you do to shove air into a motor, if the valvetrain is not optimized to deal with the air, then its much ado about nothing. You have to suspect a 'tuner' who quote obscene numbers w/o a truly comprehensive solution. I've watched race motor evolution in the BMW scene, and to quote big numbers based on bolt ons and fancy intakes is absurd. But, it sells. And, many a buyer will bolt this schit up and proclaim victory based on seat of the pants feel.

    It's funny. One day not so long ago, I bought a $1,000 set of headers for my E36 M3. I got a great deal, as a moderator for a very popular BMW forum. I was quoted 20 hp and 20 lb ft. The company even knew I was going to dyno the set. Result? 8 lb ft loss through the midrange and 2 hp gain in the last 200 rpm. A really bad mod.

    This is not different than the hucksters in the Porsche world. The current powerplants are not only tweaked beyond belief, but the software algorithms used are so complex that you have to sleep and dream in hex to tweak them beyond just WOT maps.

    Headers are a funny thing. Factory headers from the german makes tend to look like crap. But the shiny, blingy, serpentine aftermarket headers have been shown time and time again to lose tq for precious few ponies up top.

    Bottom line. . . if you want to 'feel' your investment, it's going to take a car or FI upgrade. But, FI. . . that's a whole nother thread. &#61514;

    I'm no expert, but spent years screwing around with BMWs then Pcars trying to gain performance with dyno's post-mods leaves me suspect.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Hi Frayed,

    I agree with you about the whole BMW header thing. Coming from the E36 M3 as well, the headers were no place to find power for the E36 M3. That said, I was one of the Beta testers for the JC cam kit and was able to gain 43rwhp. Of course, that's not without changing cams, intake manifold, MAF, Fuel injectors, removing the engine fan, remap of the ECU, Cold air intake and removing the dsc butterfly from the intake.

    I do believe it's possible to find hp but it might not be very easy to get as you can see I had to go to great length to stay NA but still gain a 20% increase in power for the M3. In the end, I'm all for people exploring different ways to find power. On the cayman forum, they've been able to find 38rwhp and +40ftlbs with full exhaust, intake and ecu. I'm hoping that people get curious enough to unlock some hp from the 997S. Just my .02.

    steve

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    I had one on my wife's car, and swear we got oil blow by after 50k miles on the K&N. Hard to argue with factory tested paper filters.



    I have a K&N filter..should I be worried ?

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    frayed -

    As I mentioned - the chip is a critical part of the puzzle since this is what determines the fuel flow and timing (which you liken to valve train changes). It's all about making a more violent explosion and if you allow for more flow AND then change the program to flow more you will make a bigger bang. As a software developer (who does not dream in HEX) the code to get more HP is not difficult. You simply trade some driveability/reliability for HP, there is no free lunch. (and spend hours & hours testing your solutions) You bet there is some HP left on the table in the code - especially if you can be assured of the fuel quality (like racing gas).

    You did not address my interest in the 100 Octane setting the GAIC chip provides, which I still believe is an interesting product.

    I do not consider the stock 997 header a header - it's more like an exhaust manifold and the first thing Porsche does to get X-51 power is change it to a header (it does not need to be shinny). Sorry about your BMW header but this is a well known weakness of the 997. I have owned and worked on Porsches (911 only) for 25 years + and I have seen many poor stock 911 exhaust systems and the aftermarket has been serving us owners well in the case of 997 Headers, IMHO. I have not heard of anyone adding a real header to a 997 and losing power. Start by asking the X-51 owners. Most of the aftermarket headers are 100% copies of the X-51 header.

    Of course there are many snake-oil salesmen and HP is not cheap but then the X-51 kit is not exactly cheap either - and perhaps Porsche is taking just as much advantage of us.

    So, what do you think of the 100 Octane setting on the GAIC chip? Could it fly?

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    HW Junkie, Interesting place you stopped to take a picture of your 997. I live about 8 miles west of that intersection and you are in the middle of some of the best Porsche roads in the state.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    100 octane chip will certainly work if done right. They typically advance timing to take advantage of the more stable fuel, which resists preignition (pinging) under higher heat and pressure loads than 'regular' octane.

    Anyway, lets see. The X51 package raises power output 25hp. You get modified cylinder heads, exhaust manifolds, ECU, additional radiator, carbon fiber air-box, aluminium-intake system and sports exhaust.

    The system was created as a system, and works as advertised, and has appropriate extra heat capacity with the third radiator (more power = more heat to dissipate). But costs a lofty 17k installed.

    The F77 package is what, 10k? Destroys factory warranty, and uses a bunch of parts from different vendors. Dynos will NOT back up their claims of 30 hp. Champion points to 'ram air'. OK, *maybe*. Ram air effect only works if the intake manifold and heads are optimized to take advantage of the added positive pressure. My understanding is that the intake manifold and heads remain untouched. And the system does not address the extra thermal loads on the motor.

    In other words, it's a lot of money for unproven gains, it destroys your engine warranty, reduces reliablity, and with install it gets closer to the factory option.

    Even if it matches the factory option, many would be hard pressed to tell the difference in back to back tests with earmuffs on (sound gives the impression of power).

    For 10k-15k. . . spend it on driver, sound, convenience mods.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Spend money on improving your driving abilities!!

    The Tip is a very capable vehicle in it's stock form

    TIP Hotlap


    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    PDE is THE best upgrade

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    I never endorsed the F77 nor do I think much of it. I just wanted to mention they could not ram the air on the dyno.

    My suggestion is get a decent header/cat/exhaust system which will save weight and not invalidate the Warranty together with the GAIC chip which can be re-set to stock (again, to not void the warranty). Total investment $4-5K. You get to keep all the old parts in case you want to go back to stock. All of it is simple bolt on stuff I could do in an afternoon.

    I do not mean to make anyone angry, but it seems that this is a topic which polarizes. I appreciate that someone other than Porsche is available with parts. Imagine what Porsche would charge without competition.
    Cheers

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Not angered, but healthy skepticism based on experience playing with high specific output motors, and looking at what PAG had to do to get a 7% increase in power.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    I plan to purchase the X51 headers for my Carrera S and the no some flow testing of the air filter system. The headers seem like a deal compared to everything else.

    dan

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    In reply to the latest posts...

    It appears that everyone has a different (but valid) opinion..

    Yes, that is a great area to go drving, I live a few miles from there and try to get out there every weekend. Besides the bicycle riders and slow cars, you can't beat it, i've got my choice of a at least 6 canyons that go to PCH, but my favorite is Decker to Mulholland to Encinal...

    The $10k to $15k packages are just too much for what seems to be a minimal gain...

    The headers are a slight possiblilty and maybe the sports cats, but even still those aren't really cheap and with labor, that could be fairly costly, again, argualby, for a very minimal gain..?

    The ECU mod or chip sounds like it could work but I have done that on my GM cars in the past and never said, wow, I can feel the difference, it was more like, i don't know if I can feel it or not... I saw a guy on ebay reprograming ECUs but I had to send it to him and it was hard to get out without taking the seat off, I almost got it, except I couldn't get the 4th of 4 plugs out of it, so I put it back. I would still be up for doing it if some one could get the thing off for me or do it on the car and if it didn't cost an arm and a leg...

    The 100 octane gas just isn't gonna happen for me though...

    I'm thinking of replacing the K&N filter back to stock on the advise of a few people here...

    Forgive my ignorance, what is PDE ?

    I'm still somewhat confused, but now I have ALOT more info than before... Maybe i'll just live with it the way it is for now and get a new car in the next year or so?

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    PDE _ Porsche Drivers Education

    My point about the chip is this - You can make all the hardware changes you want - unless you also change the program to make use of the changes you will still have the same timing, fuel, etc. resulting in power which is not changed (or hindered).

    It is more likely that you can just change the chip (program) and have some gain (esp. in the midrange) and extract a little extra potential from the current hardware, although this is likely very optimized already.

    If, on the other hand, you are able to change the hardware to flow better (Headers, sport cats, intake, etc) AND you can change the program to fully utilize the new hardware improvements then, AND only then, will the hardware upgrades help the engine produce more HP.

    This is why Porsche improves the flow of air/fuel AND re-programs the ECU for X-51. I would bet the X-51 hardware changes would not increase power without the matching software changes.

    Note that the GT3 changes not just the throttle map but also the ECU parameters when the sport button is pressed to produce more power just via the Program change.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Quote:
    HWJunkie said:
    In reply to the latest posts...

    It appears that everyone has a different (but valid) opinion..

    Yes, that is a great area to go drving, I live a few miles from there and try to get out there every weekend. Besides the bicycle riders and slow cars, you can't beat it, i've got my choice of a at least 6 canyons that go to PCH, but my favorite is Decker to Mulholland to Encinal...

    The $10k to $15k packages are just too much for what seems to be a minimal gain...

    The headers are a slight possiblilty and maybe the sports cats, but even still those aren't really cheap and with labor, that could be fairly costly, again, argualby, for a very minimal gain..?

    The ECU mod or chip sounds like it could work but I have done that on my GM cars in the past and never said, wow, I can feel the difference, it was more like, i don't know if I can feel it or not... I saw a guy on ebay reprograming ECUs but I had to send it to him and it was hard to get out without taking the seat off, I almost got it, except I couldn't get the 4th of 4 plugs out of it, so I put it back. I would still be up for doing it if some one could get the thing off for me or do it on the car and if it didn't cost an arm and a leg...

    The 100 octane gas just isn't gonna happen for me though...

    I'm thinking of replacing the K&N filter back to stock on the advise of a few people here...

    Forgive my ignorance, what is PDE ?

    I'm still somewhat confused, but now I have ALOT more info than before... Maybe i'll just live with it the way it is for now and get a new car in the next year or so?



    Smart man. Drive the hell out of it and move on to a new car when you tire of it.

    I've gone to the ends of the world in modding cars. . . to the point where my daily driver had become a frankencar not fit to carry groceries. Everyone has to develop their own comfort level on how far down the mod path they are willing to go.

    Too often, however, people dump 20k, 30k, 40k into a car only to realize after all the money is spent, they could have had a far better car straight from the factory.

    After years of screwing around with cars, my take is that mods that can be easily undone are desirable, and generally, in the world of modern porsches, money is best spent on a good alignment, good wheels/tires, driving events, and a few fun mods (exhaust, convenience mods). Power is VERY poor bang for the buck, and after your first track day you will realize that LAST thing you need is more power.

    With my new GT3, I'll align and corner balance it, then drive the [beep] out of it. I'll add some safety mods (roll bar, seats, harnesses).

    It's funny to see the realization from newbie track guys. They show up with all sorts of mods and get waxed by a miata, only then realizing their 4,000 hp wondercar is driven by a boob. Well, not really but you'll understand if you enroll in a fun DE weekend.

    The PDE is the Porsche Driving Experience held a Barber.

    http://www.porschedriving.com/track.htm

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    If anyones interested I had my 997S ECU re-programmed by DMS. There is a difference though.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    So the ECU reprogramming did make a difference that you could really feel?

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR GREAT SOUND AND PERFORMANCE: TRY www.AWE-TUNING.COM
    FULL DYNO SHEETS, VIDS AND SOUNDS.
    THE COMPANY IS BASED IN PA. THEY WERE FEATURED IN EXCELLENCE LAST YEAR.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Quote:
    HWJunkie said:
    So the ECU reprogramming did make a difference that you could really feel?



    Yes, there is a difference. To be fair DMS quote about 23BHP increase which is approximately 6%. So in reality your not really going to notice that much. The car certainly feels more responsive and feels like it has more torque. As to whether it's faster, I really dont know.

    The issue is do you have the remap removed after you have got used to it? Don't think I want to take the chance that it's slower quite yet.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    I have heard that reprogramming the ecu often "front loads" the throttle giving the illusion of more power. Kinda like the sport chrono.

    Re: Performance upgrades on a 997 S ?

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    The Porsche sport exhaust sound incredible. I'd put that on in a heartbeat. I think mine is still at my shop if you are interested in it.



    If you're still sitting on this, I'll take it.

     
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